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Re: Circumcision or no circumcision?
Quote:
Korn
Some people may not be aware of that there are massive campaigns against male circumcision, and may simply not have given the alternative (= no circumcision) much thought.
Also, I think until fairly recently it used to be widely believed that babies couldn't feel pain - see this (rather grisly) article for example
http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/...ies-pain_x.htm
All in all, it's very understandable that people would have had their children circumcised in the past, but it would be nice to think that today's parents review the evidence for and against, instead of following a cultural or national norm unquestioningly.
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Re: Circumcision or no circumcision?
I'm thinking that I may have given some people the impression that I am pro-circumcision.
Actually, I'm not for it or against it. It's something that I've never really given much though to as a female that is never going to have children. So at this point in my life, I haven't really formed an opinion on the matter.
I like to see what everyone has to say about the matter.
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Re: Circumcision or no circumcision?
I think this poll needs another option. As I think I mentioned before, an ex of mine was circumcised for medical reasons as a child. I can't remember now what they were but I know he was in pain before...I think maybe his foreskin wouldn't retract correctly. So, for him, I guess it was a necessary thing. I am against circumcision for any other reason.
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Re: Circumcision or no circumcision?
Good point, RW. I suppose I assumed "except when medically necessary" was implicit in the "no" option...
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Re: Circumcision or no circumcision?
Sorry that this reply is a couple of days late, I've been very busy over the weekend.
Quote:
pat sommer
Thank you to all the snipping parents for my daughters future happiness!
That is possibly the most offensive thing I've had the misfortune to read on this forum. How would you feel if I thanked mothers for pressuring their kids into having breast enlargements because it benefitted the happiness of others? I'd like to hope you'd be livid because it would be just as offensive.
If anyone's in any doubt about this, how is it different from debeaking in factory farms?
How can people be members of a forum which espouses a selfless approach to animal welfare, but deny others the right to choose what happens to their own bodies? This is exactly why some omnis criticise exponents of animal rights for seemingly putting animals above humans while we all know most people who are aware of animal rights are just as aware of human rights.
And this isn't attacking anyone. I'm asking you to think.
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Re: Circumcision or no circumcision?
I'm stepping down, I've caused a few too many bust-ups here as of late.
pat sommer - I apologise for using the words "weirdo" and "abuser". My problem is I type and then hit post whereas many others (on both sides of this) actually take the time to think through and reword their posts. My point still stands, but I need to give more thought to tact.
Thanks Greentara for closing the thread temporarily, I think that was what it needed, it certainly gave me a chance to calm down.
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Re: Circumcision or no circumcision?
Redwellies is right that some boys do suffer pain when their forskin does not retract as it should and circumcision alleviates this pain. I agree with Lilac Hamster that there are probably other ways to deal with this now.
As I mentioned earlier, my brother-in-law was circumcised because he was experiencing pain and my husband was sent for the same op. although he had no problem. Since reading this thread I have asked him how he felt about this. He says that it's no big deal at all for him and he feels fine. I felt like mentioning this in order to maybe give a bit of balance to this discussion. I'm not pro-circumcision and neither of us would want a son of ours to be circumcised. I do feel sorry for those who aren't happy with what has been done to them.
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Re: Circumcision or no circumcision?
I've somehow managed to completely miss this thread's existance ;)
Needless to say, I'm against parents making any irreversible decisions for children which really don't need making. If a kid decides when they are old enough to have sex that they want it done, so be it.
Religion, tradition etc etc are all well known irrelevent group mentality factors that people hide behind when they don't want to look at the reality of a situation and make their own choice. Come on, we're vegans, surely we all know this?!
I don't think that it is as extreme as FGM, but that's not a good reason to do it.
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Re: Circumcision or no circumcision?
I may have to be circumcised at some point in the future. It will be for medical reasons. My foreskin doesn’t retract. If there are alternatives to circumcision I’m going to try them. I’m very afraid of having to go through an operation. But I won’t go through with it unless it’s absolutely necessary. The foreskin serves a purpose. It is important for healthy sexual function. Cutting it off is absurd. I think the reason it is still being done is because it’s a custom and some customs, even if they have no solid basis, take a long time to die out. Since babies do feel pain it seems a very unkind way to welcome someone into the world.
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Re: Circumcision or no circumcision?
Quote:
harpy
Good point, RW. I suppose I assumed "except when medically necessary" was implicit in the "no" option...
The reason I didn't include that option was that AFAIK the discussion about circumcision always have distinguished between circumcision for cultural or religious reasons and surgical (is that the right word?) treatment...
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Re: Circumcision or no circumcision?
Quote:
sprite1986
But surely on principal, it is wrong to inflict anything on another person without their consent, most of all a little baby?
I haven't posted for a while, :o but after reading this thread I feel I have to pop in here to say that the very core of my veganism is based on this principal, and I am actually struggling to comprehend that some vegans support the non-medically necessary circumcision of unconsenting children. :confused:
Also, Korn said pretty much what I was thinking as I read, regarding discussions/arguments between vegans and non-vegans.
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Re: Circumcision or no circumcision?
Quote:
coconut
The foreskin serves a purpose. It is important for healthy sexual function. Cutting it off is absurd.
Whatever you decide coconut, my best wishes to you.
Regarding the above quote - what is the purpose of the foreskin? This is a real question, because I honestly don't know what it's actually there for.
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Re: Circumcision or no circumcision?
If you Google the purpose of the foreskin you'll find a lot of info...
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Re: Circumcision or no circumcision?
I've never seen someone who hasn't been circumcised, but I live in America and haven't seen many penises to begin with. The thought of touching one that is uncircumcised kind of freaks me out but so does having part of my future son's body cut off and thrown in the trash!! Circumcision was meant to be a covenant symbol between Abraham's people (of the Old Testament/Torah) and God. If you don't feel that that is relevant to you, then there's probably no need for circumcision (except for a few medical cases that have been pointed out). Anyway, I know not everyone on the forum believes the Bible, but I thought I would point out the historical/religious origin of the subject. This was the topic of discussion in my Old Testament class today. Hope that's not all redundant- I only read a couple of the pages of posts!!
AngelaMc
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Re: Circumcision or no circumcision?
That's interesting about the origins of circumcision, angelamc, but even people who are religious are selective about which parts of the scriptures they carry out, aren't they? Not many Christian or Jewish people seem to be in favour of stoning people who commit sexual irregularities, but the Bible says you should (Deuteronomy chapter 22 verses 23-24). So presumably you could decide to disregard the bit about circumcision as well?
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Re: Circumcision or no circumcision?
Quote:
Korn
If you Google the purpose of the foreskin you'll find a lot of info...
I know :o but I'm also interested to hear what the people in this conversation think the purpose of the foreskin is.
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Re: Circumcision or no circumcision?
I thought it was for the protection of quite a delicate part of the body, as I understand it the area under it is quite sensitive. I'm not male so I might be totally wrong, and I am sure it has other purposes!
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Re: Circumcision or no circumcision?
My guess would be that it prevents debris from entering the urethra.
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Re: Circumcision or no circumcision?
harpy,
The whole point of my post was to say that if you don't find circumcision relevant, then you probably shouldn't do it. Please don't turn this into a religious attack.
Angelamc
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Re: Circumcision or no circumcision?
Sorry, I wasn't aware I was attacking anyone - I simply asked a question.
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Re: Circumcision or no circumcision?
I think Harpy has a good point - when following any kind of religion or scriptures, it's relatively easy to find quotes that can be interpreted in opposite ways, which means that it's up to each and every person to decide both which religion to follow, which part of the scriptures to focus on, and how to interpret then. It seems relevant both to mention the religious origins of circumcision and to mention that religious scriptures can be both interpreted and ignored...
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Re: Circumcision or no circumcision?
It actually might make good sense for people living in a dessert with limited access to water, where sand gets in all your nooks and crannies, and it is difficult to be scrupulously clean. If this were the case then it may be in the interests of the child and would be acceptable.
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Re: Circumcision or no circumcision?
Please do not read this link if you have a problem with attacks on religion, some of you might like it though as it very well illustrates the inconsistency of some religions in which laws they follow and which they discard! This does not only apply to Judaism obviously.
http://www-users.cs.york.ac.uk/susan/joke/laura.htm
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Re: Circumcision or no circumcision?
I agree that men have a right to decide and it should never be done without their consent... nevertheless, in my personal experience, circumcised is a lot cleaner/more hygienic (and my partners have generally been pretty clean anyway)... then again, I probably haven't experienced a representative sample :D
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Re: Circumcision or no circumcision?
I see the WHO is now recommending it as an HIV prevention measure in some areas of the world.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/6502855.stm
Let's hope they won't encourage people to do it to unanaesthetised infants :(
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Re: Circumcision or no circumcision?
My understanding is that it is routinely done without anesthesia on infants. The argument is that anesthesia of infants is dangerous and up until recently doctors thought babies couldn't feel pain , JUST LIKE FISH! ;) :D
Is this WHO report talking about circumcising adults?! :eek:
This doesn't add up. If given the choice of:
A) No sex.
B) 100% faithful use of condoms for all sex.
C) We cut off part of your penis. And by the way, you still have to use a condom for every sexual encounter because studies show the "cutting off part of your penis" part is only 48-60% effective.
There are men who choose "C" ?:confused:
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Re: Circumcision or no circumcision?
I suppose they're talking about countries where condoms aren't widely available, i.e. if the men wouldn't use condoms anyway, they should be circumcised so that only 40% of them who are exposed to HIV will contract it :confused:. That's my guess anyway...
However, again I can't see justifying cutting off part of a penis to reduce the risk of a disease. What's next? "New study shows that cutting off breasts reduces breast cancer by 99%! Come out and get your breasts removed for the sake of your health!!!" I don't think that would go too well, so why does nobody bat an eyelid when we're talking about a foreskin instead of breasts? It's kind of like meateaters who say "It's wrong to kill and eat my pet dog, but it's ok to eat a cow". They're conditioned to believe that cows aren't as important as pets, just like many people are conditioned to believe that foreskin isn't as important as other body parts.
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Re: Circumcision or no circumcision?
What an interesting post.
As a circumcised male aged 52 I have never had a problem with the issue. I believe I was circumcised because my father was and my son has been circumcised for the same reason. Personally I think the real reason has been lost over the generations.
The subject came up recently and I was referred to a website which has led me to believe that the whole practice is totally wrong. We would not have foreskins if they did not have a function.
The following website is rather graphic (so don't go there if you don't want to see a penis and or a vagina) but is so in the interests of explaining the reasons why we shouldn't be circumcised.
I will definitely show it to my son and my daughter and this will possibly stop this practice in our line of the family anyway.
http://www.sexasnatureintendedit.com
This refutes the members in this post who say sex with a circumcised male is better than sex with a "natural" man.
Just food for thought.
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Re: Circumcision or no circumcision?
I consider circumcision legalized (and in the US/Canada) socially accepted child-abuse. Iym sorry,butt I can't see it any other way (unless there are some rare medical reasons). Guys can keep clean without bein' mutilated. And some people prefer the natural scent of a man with a foreskin. Iym from the UK where guys are usually pleasantly complete (although I have very limited direct experience.....hee hee).
There's NOTHING yukky about the intact penis. Nothing! It is a beautiful thing!
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Re: Circumcision or no circumcision?
I totally agree with you Heartsease! :) I dont know where this tradition sprang from, but how can mutilation of the body ever be right? especially in the eyes of god, after all that is how he/she made us.
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Re: Circumcision or no circumcision?
Quote:
Heartsease
Guys can keep clean without bein' mutilated.
I think if I was a circumcised guy, I would be insulted that my parents considered me so incapable of practicing good hygiene that they cut part of my penis off.
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Re: Circumcision or no circumcision?
Anyone fancy having all teeth removed instead of simply cleaning them?
Butt, I think the reasons the 'tradition' began are varied and may include (I think I saw in earlier post) the attempt to prevent masturbation.
Doing something because it is 'traditional' is the lamest excuse of all.
Sorry, Iym having a bad night....:(
I am trying to be understanding and non-judgemental. Apologies! I just feel children and animals are subject to all sorts of crap and that we should challenge all harm that needlessly befalls them because they (unlike most adults) can seldom do so themselves.
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Re: Circumcision or no circumcision?
I agree to do it to a baby without consent is not good... but if they choose to have it done later on in life I see no problem...
a question to those women so against it (sorry guys!)... have you been with a circumcised man to be able to compare? was the experience bad/worse? In my LIMITED experience, hygiene is a lot better (and no, before you ask I dont have any problems with uncircumcised guys either, I am just trying to be objective here)
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Re: Circumcision or no circumcision?
I've encountered both varieties in my (ahem) long career, though admittedly not in great numbers, and all were scrupulously clean I'm pleased to report :)
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Re: Circumcision or no circumcision?
I don't normally do this but LOL! at harpy :D
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Re: Circumcision or no circumcision?
Quote:
Manzana
...
a question to those women so against it (sorry guys!)... have you been with a circumcised man to be able to compare? was the experience bad/worse? In my LIMITED experience, hygiene is a lot better (and no, before you ask I dont have any problems with uncircumcised guys either, I am just trying to be objective here)
I haven't got a huge sample, but I wouldn't say I've been with any uncircumcised people who made me think "phew, this is a bit niffy, I think they should get that bit of skin lopped off" and I've tended to think that uncircumcised is more comfortable/feels more lubricated.
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Re: Circumcision or no circumcision?
Quote:
Manzana
have you been with a circumcised man to be able to compare?
Yes. There was no difference for me. Just because a man is circumcised doesn't mean he won't smell if he doesn't wash correctly!
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Re: Circumcision or no circumcision?
Quote:
Heartsease
Anyone fancy having all teeth removed instead of simply cleaning them?
:D
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Re: Circumcision or no circumcision?
Quote:
Manzana
a question to those women so against it (sorry guys!)... have you been with a circumcised man to be able to compare?)
Mr Peeled-Banana got uncomfortable when he cycled because he had no 'protection' over his sensitive spots and his clothing rubbed.:(
I had read some research about the effects of male circumcism on the female partners ability to orgasm (during vaginal sex)...this research suggested that the foreskin aids female orgasm because the (ahem) 'helmet' will pull out moisture when the penis exits the vagina...whereas an intact penis will leave the helmet covered on the way out reducing moisture loss.
:eek:
Butt (and it's a hairy one!:D ) the fact that Mr Peeled-Banana was/is far yummier than Mr Unpeeled (in my opinion) is owing to Mr Peeled-Banana's high standards of cleanliness and gentle nature not because part of his body was surgically removed to satisfy someone else's preconceived notions.
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Re: Circumcision or no circumcision?
I've been with both and there were no problems with hygiene. Circumcised men cant masturbate without lubrication.