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Re: What is your opinion about keeping pets? Poll planned...
Anyone can answer. It's not meant for anyone in particular but rather for the entire ongoing discussion. Also, my question is not, "Should we do this?" My question is, "Is there a mechanism in place that would continue the survival of these domesticated species which I am overlooking?"
For example, I would think all human communities have to some degree a population of dogs and cats that "live on the streets": street cats, alley cats, stray dogs, feral animals, or whatever you want to call them. Considering we actually have people in the profession of catching them (dog catchers), I know they do exist. What I don't know is if that animal population would naturally vanish under your (Mr. Flible's) proposed phasing-out of all domesticated pets. Assuming they breed, my initial thought is no, they wouldn't disappear.
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Re: What is your opinion about keeping pets? Poll planned...
I had a pamphlet through the door from Cats Protection the other day and they said they have a policy of catching feral cats, neutering them and returning them so they could not spread disease etc.
I was wondering if this was just propaganda or if there is a need to neuter and phase them out just like domestic cats (as they find it hard to survive without human intervention?)
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Re: What is your opinion about keeping pets? Poll planned...
I don't think Cats Protection are trying to phase out cats in general, but apart from the disease problem feral cats tend not to have a very good life and are difficult to rehome so I think CP probably be happy if there were no more feral cats.
As things are the question of cats etc becoming extinct is an academic one isn't it? In an ideal world I suppose we could offer the animals some sort of quasi-natural habitat and let them decide for themselves how closely they wanted to associate with humans, if at all.
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Re: What is your opinion about keeping pets? Poll planned...
I just googled to find out how many stray dogs there are in the world: approximately 480 million! :eek: From what I remember from sex education class, you only need two or more for breeding to occur.;)
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Re: What is your opinion about keeping pets? Poll planned...
I remember when I used to stay on my family's farm when I was younger they had feral cats in the barn which they gave scraps of food to as a reward for killing mice and rats I guess. They always seemed very thin to me but I suppose I was comparing them to domestic cats. They always ate the food they left but they didn't need it I suppose because they can catch their own food?
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Re: What is your opinion about keeping pets? Poll planned...
I've heard that well-fed cats are actually better at catching rodents than underfed cats - maybe they can't catch enough to live on properly, or maybe it's a rumour put around to encourage people to feed their cats...
I imagine that on average farm cats have better lives than urban ferals. I know cat rescue organisations often try to rehome feral cats as farm cats because it's easier for them to live that way than to settle into a family home if they're not used to it.
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Re: What is your opinion about keeping pets? Poll planned...
I know the feral cats I saw on the farm probably had a much better life then urban cats around here today. Its weird because my family kept pigs, cows, sheep etc but it was the cats I came away feeling sorry for (I was about 6 years old though.)
It was 1980-something though and I don't think farmers treated animals with such disrespect as they do today wih factory farming. (Maybe they did and I have a rosy tinted image.)
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Re: What is your opinion about keeping pets? Poll planned...
All of my pets were rescues. I have 5 kitties, a dog, and a rabbit. They are my babies. I couldn't live without them! However i think it's horrible to bread NEW animals for pets. If you know what i mean.
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Re: What is your opinion about keeping pets? Poll planned...
<<No, but... I don't think keeping pets (other than rescued animals) is ethically acceptable, but my love for / desire to be around animals is stronger then my principles.>>
my old dog Blaze died about five years ago, he was a rescue dog, a 3time loser, so on the death list at the shelter i worked at. i got him 4 years before i was vegan, so he was not fed a vegan diet. at the time vegan dog food and nutrition even in the vegan world was not a viable plan. so i kept him as an omni. i have always considered owning pets not to be vegan in any sense, but as life goes on shades of grey come into play. Now i'd consider companion animals that have been rescued to be acceptable for a vegan to co-exist with, a symbiosis.
i had this choice three months ago when i found a starved, beaten, flea bitten, mange and worm ridden, stinking with urine puppy. could i leave it in ireland to slowly die or as it would, the rescue centers wouldn't take it, euthanase it or take it as my own. so i've got a dog when i said i'd NEVER have an other animal. best laid plans eh?
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Re: What is your opinion about keeping pets? Poll planned...
I want to say that I don't agree with breeding while there are so many animals who need homes.
But my (well, my family's) dog Jack is from a breeder (a decision my mum uncharacteristically took, which I disagree with) and to disagree with breeding would be to disagree with him being alive, and I love him to bits and I'm sure he would rather he is alive too.
:)
I can't have this discussion while I have pets because it would be like saying I disagree with having them.
There is a very strong, mutual love there.
I don't like keeping animals caged though. As a child I had a number of animals which were caged, and now I feel bad that I did it because they were kept separate from other animals, with no company, for my entertainment. I will probably always feel guilty about that. I try not to think about it because it upsets me.
But I have a dog and two cats now who have plenty of freedom (believe me, Jack doesn't want any more - he won't even go upstairs in our house because it is so unfamiliar to him!), and they are very well looked after and respected and left to their own devices. I disagree with training my dog too. I believe that the only training that should be done is for safety. So he comes when I call him and knows to sit before crossing a road. I don't call him for fun, I do it to stop him running into a road. My mum taught him to lie, and I completely didn't like that because there was no need for it. I found it adorable to watch, but I don't like to make him do it because it's just exercising unnecessary power.
Dogs do like some degree of guidance though. They live in packs in the wild, and have leaders. The family is like their pack. It may not be natural, but it can also be seen as beautiful that man and animals can live so harmoniously together, with such understanding. Me and my animals really understand each other. I know them. And they know me. They know when I don't feel well, and they learn to communicate with us too.
I like to avoid calling them 'pets' because they're not. They are not below me, they're a part of the family.
And I have great respect for them.
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Re: What is your opinion about keeping pets? Poll planned...
Why would it be wrong for a vegan to keep a pet? Or put another way, share their home with an animal/animals. Being a vegan very often goes hand in hand with compasion and love for all creatures, what's more natural than to give harbour to one or more.
I have always had animals in my home - I've never bought one, as I don't approve of that, what with so many needing somewhere safe to live. I've got some animals from rescue centres, but much more often they have found me and choosen to move in.
Neither do I tend to call them pets... not a particularly concious decision, I just don't consider them that way. I have love and respect for them.
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Re: What is your opinion about keeping pets? Poll planned...
I have 4 fury family members in my house (all rescued cats). I also don't believe in breeding new animals but there are so many out there who need rescuing. We got all 4 of ours when we lived out in the country in Missouri. People would see a house out in the middle of nowhere and drop unwanted kittens off in our ditch. I couldn't bring myself to take them to the shelters in the area (this was a very animal un-friendly southern town) so I decided to keep and take care of them myself.
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Re: What is your opinion about keeping pets? Poll planned...
I too hate the idea of bred animals. People buy pets when there are wonderful pets available out there who need homes.
I have no problem keeping domesticated pets. I have never had a dog in my adult life. But I live and work for my cats. They are strictly indoors and this home is their home. They are not "trained" and are not punished for their natural behavior such as sharpening their claws (and I have the couch to prove it. So I knew better than to buy an expensive couch) I would not want to live without my pets and I could not come home to a dead empty space without them.
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Re: What is your opinion about keeping pets? Poll planned...
I totally agree that my life would be empty without my furbabies. Maybe I'm selfish, but I would hate to live my life w/o furbabies. I also think that once I got out on my own and started sharing my life with furbabies, they are treated like my kids and don't feel neglected or imprisoned. I hope to always have some animal companions in my home and don't find their place with me "unvegan" at all.
[I also saw a special on dogs and some anthropologists/zoologists are theorizing that both cats and dogs/wolves actually "joined up" with us of their own accord. That the dogs/wolves that approached us were less aggressive and less fearful of us, so were probably "low" in their packs and joining our "pack" made their lives easier. Cats probably approached us because our living arrangements encouraged large populations of rodents and they eventually trained us to take care of them;) Other animals such as rabbits--which I also have--are not the same in that regard though:( ]
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Re: What is your opinion about keeping pets? Poll planned...
Yes, I would think that several animal groups were first attracted to our villages from the smell of our garbage. Depending on how safe we thought they'd be to keep in the presence of babies, we cherry picked out the non aggressive dogs and cats but shunned the other species like bears, rats, mice etc that still seek our garbage to this day.
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Re: What is your opinion about keeping pets? Poll planned...
I encourage people to care for animals that are in shelters or are homeless. It's not about giving money to the pet trade, it's about giving an animal a better life. Sure, it's not their perfect life, but it's better than having them living in a cage for the rest of their days.
A lot of people [omnivores or otherwise] want to keep pets, and if they can take care of them, I will point them in the direction of the shelter. Also, keeping pets can give you a respect for animals, I am certain that it was my caring for different species of animals that helped toward my decision to become a vegan.
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Re: What is your opinion about keeping pets? Poll planned...
Quote:
onebigvegan
<<No, but... I don't think keeping pets (other than rescued animals) is ethically acceptable, but my love for / desire to be around animals is stronger then my principles.>>
my old dog Blaze died about five years ago, he was a rescue dog, a 3time loser, so on the death list at the shelter i worked at. i got him 4 years before i was vegan, so he was not fed a vegan diet. at the time vegan dog food and nutrition even in the vegan world was not a viable plan. so i kept him as an omni. i have always considered owning pets not to be vegan in any sense, but as life goes on shades of grey come into play. Now i'd consider companion animals that have been rescued to be acceptable for a vegan to co-exist with, a symbiosis.
i had this choice three months ago when i found a starved, beaten, flea bitten, mange and worm ridden, stinking with urine puppy. could i leave it in ireland to slowly die or as it would, the rescue centers wouldn't take it, euthanase it or take it as my own. so i've got a dog when i said i'd NEVER have an other animal. best laid plans eh?
Never say never...when my [rescued] golden retriever Tipper died last May, I wanted to adopt another animal right away. There are plenty of animals in need, and keeping animals has never been against my code of ethics.
I have never bought an animal from a breeder or pet store, although I'm a dog walker and most of the dogs I walk have been purchased. A few are rescues, and very much loved--but then again, so are the store-bought animals.
This past February, I went to a shelter and adopted a springer spaniel I found while searching on Petfinder. He had been there over a month and was severely underweight; his cage-mate was probably stealing his food. In the past several months, I've been able to get him to look amazingly great, so that he's now an ambassador of both rescue animals and vegan pets. (I don't have a problem with the word "pet;" it's too cumbersome to say "animal who shares my home.")
I probably differ from most people here in that I also don't have a problem with training animals to be service animals--seeing-eye or signal dogs, or animals trained for other service functions to the disabled.
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Re: What is your opinion about keeping pets? Poll planned...
Quote:
frank language
(I don't have a problem with the word "pet;" it's too cumbersome to say "animal who shares my home.")
Yes, I agree. Much simpler and quicker than using the more politically correct, "This is Fido, he's my non-human, sentient, significant, symbiotic, cohabitant other." :)
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Re: What is your opinion about keeping pets? Poll planned...
I simply say, "This is my son. And this is my daughter." Or, "These are my kids."
:D
And then I bask in the weird looks I get. ^_^
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Re: What is your opinion about keeping pets? Poll planned...
Am happier now that I have discovered vegan catfood and my cat seems to really love them. So we will be a totally vegan household soon :D
My ickle baby (although 10 years old so not so much of a baby) sleeps for part of most nights curled up in my arms. She is very much her own cat and could easily leave any day if she wanted too. I feel very blessed to be loved by my cat and that she gets worried if I am away and that she wants to share things with me. It is partly because I care so much for her and partly appreciating her ability to love, be curious, be worried that I have moved from being a vegan from a philosopical view point to now having a more empathic stance.
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Re: What is your opinion about keeping pets? Poll planned...
^ that brought a lump to my throat :o
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Re: What is your opinion about keeping pets? Poll planned...
Quote:
Mahk
Yes, I agree. Much simpler and quicker than using the more politically correct, "This is Fido, he's my non-human, sentient, significant, symbiotic, cohabitant other." :)
I still say "pet" when I'm talking to those who are...um...less than progressive. However, I usually say companion animals or furbabies to those who "get" it. Pet to me just makes me think of a patronizing attitude, but that's just my feeling about it and I don't think negatively about the person using the term.
(I have had people mishear furbabies and think i was talking about Furbies though;) )
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Re: What is your opinion about keeping pets? Poll planned...
I actually abhor domestication of animals. But I have taken in many abandoned pets who couldn't make it on their own.
Most of these make their way to new homes where I feel confident they will be cared for. My current feline pal, Acajou, came from an abusive home and has a serious food sensitivity problem. Speaking of food, is there a thread discussing vegan diets for our animal companions? I did a search for one in here earlier, but came up empty handed. I saw it mentioned earlier in this thread and hope someone may be able to help me in my quest to find a vegan diet that Aki can actually digest.
I would be content to be pet free if the domestication of animals was not a disgusting reality. But, until animals are once more restored to their former glory, I will do what I can to ensure that some animals will lead happier lives.
I do have one friend who is a breeder.
The idea is uncomfortable for me. Even more so when I discovered that most of the resulting puppies were too sick (from genetic issues resulting from inbreeding) to survive and most had to be euthanised anyway. I honestly think the euthanised puppies might have it better than some that are purchased, since they will never experience the pain of mistreatment and abandonment. From material I have come across, I've assumed that PeTA is a proponent of euthanasia. One article, in particular mentioned PeTA's euthanasia of rescued lab animals. Now, this may seem like a very harsh viewpoint, and I am certain that there are many who disagree. But I side with PeTA in this argument. If it were me being used for testing purposes against my will, I would probably welcome my death. For me, it's all about quality of life, not quantity. Why should anything or anyone ever be forced to suffer?
I stand against the extermination of all domesticated animals because I feel it is an issue that would need to be resolved gradually. As long as the animals are properly cared for, they should be allowed to live with their human friends. A more effective way to fix the situation would be to eliminate breeding and sales of animals, whilst ensuring that already domesticated species do not breed in captivity.
All of the pets I've taken care of have been spayed or neutered where possible. As much as I dislike surgical procedures upon the unwilling, I believe it is best. Heck, if I were straight, I would've had a vasectomy by now. There's no way I'd be comfortable adding to the overpopulation myself. I can hardly expect the cat I live with do his part in reducing the suffering of his species if I'm not willing to do so as well.
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Re: What is your opinion about keeping pets? Poll planned...
I find the idea of not having animals around (pet's,companion animals,whatever term you find fitting) a bit odd.To deny yourself the enjoyment and companionship of animals around is,to me,to deny yourself part of what being human is all about,we have evolved and adapted WITH animals round us not seperate from them!
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Re: What is your opinion about keeping pets? Poll planned...
It just scares me...........you give humans a privilege and they end up thinking they have a right :mad: . Animals don't understand our words and we don't understand them - some of us understand better than others, but the trouble is that any human can keep animals imprisoned in their homes/gardens, etc. It makes me shudder to imagine all those rabbits locked away who never get any exercise, or to see the dear little dogs that live next door to me, out in the garden in all weathers :mad: .
I love living with companion animals but i would forgo that joy tomorrow if there were to be a blanket ban on all pet 'ownership' meaning that animals could never fall into the wrong hands again :( .
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Re: What is your opinion about keeping pets? Poll planned...
Quote:
gogs67
I find the idea of not having animals around (pet's,companion animals,whatever term you find fitting) a bit odd.To deny yourself the enjoyment and companionship of animals around is,to me,to deny yourself part of what being human is all about,we have evolved and adapted WITH animals round us not seperate from them!
Your justification/reasoning is identical to that which some people use for eating meat. E.g.
"I find the idea of not having animals to eat a bit odd. To deny yourself the enjoyment of eating animals is, to me, to deny yourself what being human is all about, we have evolved and adapted WITH eating animals"
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Re: What is your opinion about keeping pets? Poll planned...
I frankly couldn't imagine not having my animal friends. I treat them better than I treat my roomates, they are my roomates, but i take care of them (and they take care of me). I do however believe that certain people should not be allowed to take care of animals (just like I believe certain people shouldn't be allowed to have children). It really drives me crazy when people buy animals and have to give them up because of some lame reason, like moving or the fur is getting on their furniture. idiots.:mad:
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Re: What is your opinion about keeping pets? Poll planned...
I agree with you. There are even people who declaw rabbits (I noticed your avatar:) ) because they don't like their digging or declaw cats because they're ruining furniture. Now people like that should NOT be allowed to have companion animals!
BTW, I think animals and humans were intended to be companions (as I am a christian, so believe that God put all animals--including humans--here), which is TOTALLY different than eating them:eek:
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Re: What is your opinion about keeping pets? Poll planned...
Quote:
Mr Flibble
Your justification/reasoning is identical to that which some people use for eating meat. E.g.
"I find the idea of not having animals to eat a bit odd. To deny yourself the enjoyment of eating animals is, to me, to deny yourself what being human is all about, we have evolved and adapted WITH eating animals"
Twist it how you want!http://www.celticminded.com/images/smilies/animlol.gifIf you cant see the difference between eating and companionship i don't think i'd want tae visit yer house!
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Re: What is your opinion about keeping pets? Poll planned...
Quote:
Mr Flibble
Your justification/reasoning is identical to that which some people use for eating meat. E.g.
"I find the idea of not having animals to eat a bit odd. To deny yourself the enjoyment of eating animals is, to me, to deny yourself what being human is all about, we have evolved and adapted WITH eating animals"
Mr. Flibble, I think a more appropriate analogy for your argument would be the justification for slavery, not eating meat:
"I find the idea of not having slaves around a bit odd.To deny yourself the enjoyment and companionship of slaves around is,to me,to deny yourself part of what being human is all about,we have evolved and adapted WITH slaves round us not separate from them!"
Continuing on that thought:
"Although there may be a few bad apples out there, the majority of us slave owners feed, clothe, and nurture our slaves quite well. It is in their own best interest for us to keep them, since they can't fend for themselves on the streets and would perish without us. I love my slaves, think of them as friends or my family really, and I hardly ever beat them and of course only when they've been bad or have attempted to escape their cage or the locked doors of my house. People who beat their slaves for fun just make me sick!:mad: Whenever I castrate or brand my slaves I always allow them to get liquored up first and only use sterile cutting shears and branding irons to minimize infections."
"Slavery has existed for thousands of years. This is God's way, you see, and slavery is condoned in both the Old and New Testament. Being Christian, I strictly adhere to the Bible's rules regarding beatings:
When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)"
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Re: What is your opinion about keeping pets? Poll planned...
You kinda have to pick and choose with the Bible. According to Leviticus 19:19, gardens are a sin.
"Thou shalt not sow thy field with mingled seed."
Growing more than one kind of plant in one area is a no-no. :)
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Re: What is your opinion about keeping pets? Poll planned...
Mahk I have to take issue with you! - it is only in animals' best interests for us to care for them now because they have been bred into domestication by us!. My issue is thatwe made that decision for them and continue to do so, - how arrogant we are! :eek: .
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Re: What is your opinion about keeping pets? Poll planned...
Well I'm a hypocrite, I don't really agree with companion animals as an idea (especially after reading Mahk's post above!), but I have a dog:o :D
In defence of keeping pets, think how many people turn compassionate because they know they can love a dog/cat/rabbit etc. Take that away, cut people off even more from animals.... shudder at the thought
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Re: What is your opinion about keeping pets? Poll planned...
Quote:
cobweb
It just scares me...........you give humans a privilege and they end up thinking they have a right :mad: . Animals don't understand our words and we don't understand them - some of us understand better than others, but the trouble is that any human can keep animals imprisoned in their homes/gardens, etc. It makes me shudder to imagine all those rabbits locked away who never get any exercise, or to see the dear little dogs that live next door to me, out in the garden in all weathers :mad: .
I love living with companion animals but i would forgo that joy tomorrow if there were to be a blanket ban on all pet 'ownership' meaning that animals could never fall into the wrong hands again :( .
cobweb... I agree entirely... well put...
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Re: What is your opinion about keeping pets? Poll planned...
Quote:
Mahk
Mr. Flibble, I think a more appropriate analogy for your argument would be the justification for slavery, not eating meat:
"I find the idea of not having slaves around a bit odd.To deny yourself the enjoyment and companionship of slaves around is,to me,to deny yourself part of what being human is all about,we have evolved and adapted WITH slaves round us not separate from them!"
Continuing on that thought:
"Although there may be a few bad apples out there, the majority of us slave owners feed, clothe, and nurture our slaves quite well. It is in their own best interest for us to keep them, since they can't fend for themselves on the streets and would perish without us. I love my slaves, think of them as friends or my family really, and I hardly ever beat them and of course only when they've been bad or have attempted to escape their cage or the locked doors of my house. People who beat their slaves for fun just make me sick!:mad: Whenever I castrate or brand my slaves I always allow them to get liquored up first and only use sterile cutting shears and branding irons to minimize infections."
"Slavery has existed for thousands of years. This is God's way, you see, and slavery is condoned in both the Old and New Testament. Being Christian, I strictly adhere to the Bible's rules regarding beatings:
When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)"
Oh,PLEASE,now your comparing me to a plantation owner from the deep South!:rolleyes: http://www.celticminded.com/images/smilies/animlol.gif
I don't know one vegan that doesn't have animals round the house because that's part of what we do,take in rescue animals that would otherwise be put down or live out their life in some hellish shelter!
Now you can wrap up your views in some holier than thou moral and ethical rhetoric,and i would agree to the point that in a perfect world there would be no war,famine,disease,animal abuse etc,but this is reality,there ARE animals needing homes,i don't live in some rural utopia.Veganism to me and all the people i know,is live life trying to cause as little suffering to animals as possible,not cutting yourself off from them entirely because of some unobtainable philisophical viewpoint,and if there are dogs and cats that need a home and cared for i will continue to do so.
Just my view on it but i think it's a slippery slope if you go around criticising me,everyone i know and all the other vegans on this thread because they have animals around.It doesn't come across as a very accessable viewpoint to someone who is NOT vegan!;)
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Re: What is your opinion about keeping pets? Poll planned...
I'm not sure of Mahk's viewpoint and I know your post was aimed at him, but I've made similar comments to Mahk in this thread. If you read my rather lengthy postings you'll see that I (and i think most) vegans are not against rescuing animals, but with continued breeding of domesticated animals that require human ownership.
On the subject of no vegans not having animals I know plenty, including myself and my partner.
With regard to accessibility, veganism would be more accessible to non vegans if we championed the idea of eating a vegan diet only 50% of the time. AR activism is one thing, but leading a vegan lifestyle is about ethics, not recruitment.
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Re: What is your opinion about keeping pets? Poll planned...
I do agree with Mr Flibble in principle but I don't live my life in that way because I love my animals and think my life would be way lonelier than it is without them - so probably that is pure selfishness on my part.
But I agree with Gogs67 that this a an imperfect world and rescuing animals that might be put down otherwise is a better solution to a less than ideal situation.
What I don't understand is if a vegan was against any animal and human interaction would they ever rescue an animal?
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Re: What is your opinion about keeping pets? Poll planned...
Quote:
gogs67
No, I wasn't comparing you to anyone. If you re-read my post again you'll see virtually all of it is in quotation marks. I didn't say that I thought any of these things, but rather that Mr Flibble's camp would have a better argument using an analogy to slavery, instead of eating meat. I thought your point to him,
Quote:
"If you cant see the difference between eating and companionship i don't think i'd want tae visit yer house!"
was quite valid. I'm sorry I did not make this more clear.
Quote:
i think it's a slippery slope if you go around criticising me,everyone i know and all the other vegans on this thread because they have animals around.
I wasn't criticizing you, or anyone else on this thread. Again, I'm sorry if I did not make this more clear, I was just expounding on how I would think Mr. Flibble and his camp feel about it, but of course I'll let him speak for himself.
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Re: What is your opinion about keeping pets? Poll planned...
Quote:
cobweb
Mahk I have to take issue with you! - it is only in animals' best interests for us to care for them now because they have been bred into domestication by us!. My issue is that we made that decision for them and continue to do so, - how arrogant we are! :eek: .
Cobweb, you don't take issue with my views at all. The quoted material in my post were not my views. Sorry I didn't make that clear. I actually agree with Barley, your post most closely reflects my views, as well, and I applaud your brave stance, especially the last part:
Quote:
It just scares me...........you give humans a privilege and they end up thinking they have a right . Animals don't understand our words and we don't understand them - some of us understand better than others, but the trouble is that any human can keep animals imprisoned in their homes/gardens, etc. It makes me shudder to imagine all those rabbits locked away who never get any exercise, or to see the dear little dogs that live next door to me, out in the garden in all weathers .
I love living with companion animals but i would forgo that joy tomorrow if there were to be a blanket ban on all pet 'ownership' meaning that animals could never fall into the wrong hands again .
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Re: What is your opinion about keeping pets? Poll planned...
:) Well thanks for clearing that up, Mahk :p