Yes, my mum didn't mind the injections too much and lived until she was 82, so if I do the same I'll be happy! :)
Thanks Korn, I'll have a look at that now. :)
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Having read this part -
Quote: 'an elevated methylmalonic acid level is clearly more specific for vitamin B12 deficiency than an elevated homocysteine level. Vitamin B12 or folic acid deficiency can cause the homocysteine level to rise, so folic acid levels also should be checked in patients with isolated hyperhomocysteinemia' End Quote
I think I'll ask my doctor to test my mma and homocysteine levels when I see him in 4 weeks time.
I agree yeast is, but it is a fungus that competes for growth with everything else inside, which lead to lots of other difficulties: That it will compete with other friendly bacteria, and is so much more powerful, killing them off, in effect since there is competition inside, and for food and room to grow.
The carbs or sugar in alcohol yet to ferment, give off gasses fermenting inside that stiffle other growth, effectively 'starving' you. This would be noticed once the liquid mass passes out and you feel empty.
I remember what goes on inside after drinking; which I haven't for 19 years, causing dehydration (from alcohol present inside -just think about the burning feeling on the outside if you wipe it on!) and any sclerosis that this triggers, also begins to account for the other arterial damage and problem of alcohol consumption...and to add to this addiction, just to begin, as you feel like something inside of you thrives, but it is on more sugars. It is well know drinkers are more likely to relate to diabetes
In fact this yeast takes control, leading to Candida etc. In time even in moderate drinking, the positives like social enjoyment- a pastime.. are but a drag, which you (I) can do without, and since it may not lend itself to Vit. B12 dificiency, but that is a minor problem I considered, in comparison to some of the other consequences, about which I'd be far worse off, and perhaps financially to the hilt.
I believe moderate alcohol cosumption IS part of a balanced and moderated lifestyle (and occasional excessive consumption good for the soul*). Brewing and Fermenting are a historic way of turning one foodsuff into another or one way preserving it for another season!
* Wassail out the dark nights!... (with friends, homebrew Scumpy n elderflower wine!)
Hi Leopd, as you seemed to concentrate on alcohol in 2 of your posts I got the impression you felt 'it' alone was to blame for deficiency.
I see by your reply to me this isn't the case. :)
I feel there isn't one particular reason and the intricacies of bodily systems are still not fully understood.
Interesting post imothepixie.............I too believe that 'moderate' alcohol comsumption is not a bad thing. ;) :)
How are you doing now, Sandra? Are the pills helping with the symptoms you mentioned, or is it too early to say?
Hi Harpy, I have to have the tests repeated in about 3 weeks time so I'll know better then if the pills are helping or not. I really hope they are, as if not, then it's more likely I've got pernicious anaemia like my mum.
(Thank you so much for asking....................it made me feel better just knowing you took the time to ask. :smoochie: xxx)
Fingers crossed for the next tests then, Sandra :thumbsup: At least you don't have to revise for this kind of test, eh?
Hope you're ok, Sandra! If you need the injections, it may not be the worst way to go! They're absorbed more easily and seem to really give a boost of energy! Could help with a few of those 'blues' symptoms and mental fog. I'm considering the injections, myself.
Ha ha! Thank goodness..............tests and revising brings back awful memories of A- level English literature and Chaucer! :eek: I was very OCD about it all! :( At least these tests are out of my control in a way. :) xxx
Thanks LMNOP :heart: I have been feeling very tired lately and in need of an energy boost. :)
I haven't been feeling very well this past few days. I wake up at night and both my arms are numb from my fingers to my elbows, it is very unpleasant. I seem to be breathing strangely............as if I can't get a breath. I am due to have more blood tests on Tuesday but I feel so ill I am going to try and see a doctor tomorrow about this.
I have been taking the B12 tablets for weeks now but my symtoms just seem to be getting worse. I am really afraid I might have pernicious anaemia and that my body just isn't working properly.
Hi Sandra, if you think you have B12 levels/are not feeling well, the best thing IMO would be to check your levels as soon as possible, and maybe you're even in a situation where you actually would need B12 injections.
I'll move some of the posts from this thread over to another thread soon (since it's about confirmed cases of B12 deficiency)... but: if I would have been in a situation of noting feeling well for several days, I wouldn't have waited anything more than I had to before I saw someone who could help me out. If you have something related to low B12 levels, normal B12 supplementation won't be good enough - you would need therapeutic amounts, so I hope you sort something out as soon as spossible Good luck.
Thanks Korn. :)
Sorry for posting in the wrong place about this. I thought having low levels was the same as being deficient.
I have had a blood test last month that confirmed I have very low levels of B12. I am to have further tests next week that will hopefully confirm if I am deficient in B12 or not.
I thought having low levels was the same as being deficient.
No problem. :) I'll send you a PM...
A little bit about the idea behind this thread...
First, most people are probably deficient in one or more nutrients. Apparently, only 1% of the population isn't deficient in any nutrients.
39% of non-vegans have low (but in the "low, normal range") B12 levels. Circa 9% (of non-vegans) are considered B12 deficient.
The number should be higher in vegans, for reasons discussed in many trheads - not because one becomes deficent in more nutrients by eating vegan.
After having deleted more than 3000 members (people who nevers posted and hadn't been online for a year), we still have circa 7500 members. If vegans would be as B12 deficient as non-vegans, we should have 675 B12 deficient members. Even if vegans do better than non-vegans re. a lot of nutrients, we don't in terms of B12. We should therefore have more than 675 B12 deficient members here (a lot more actually, if non of us would have been aware of the need to pay special attention to B12).
So instead of just having a poll about B12 levels (we have that as well), this thread can be useful as a way to share info about stuff like how low B12 levels people had if they had any symptoms of B12 deficiency, how long they had been eating vegan without supplements/fortified food etc.
From Are You Vitamin B12 Deficient?
It's not good to have too high B12 levels. And people who take B12 supplements regularly aren't necessarily safe. Plus - the results above don't say anything about MMA and homocysteine levels in these people, so the real numbers should probably be higher. Then there's the thing about all people over 50 should take B12 (some experts even claim that all people should take B12).Quote:
Nearly two-fifths of the U.S. population may be flirting with marginal vitamin B12 status—that is, if a careful look at nearly 3,000 men and women in the ongoing Framingham (Massachusetts) Offspring Study is any indication. Researchers found that 39 percent of the volunteers have plasma B12 levels in the "low normal" range—below 258 picomoles per liter (pmol/L).
While this is well above the currently accepted deficiency level of 148 pmol/L, some people exhibit neurological symptoms at the upper level of the deficiency range, explains study leader Katherine L. Tucker. She is a nutritional epidemiologist at the Jean Mayer USDA Human Nutrition Research Center on Aging at Tufts University in Boston.
"I think there’s a lot of undetected vitamin B12 deficiency out there," says Tucker. She noted that nearly 9 percent of the study population fell below the current deficiency level. And more than 16 percent fell below 185 pmol/L. "Many people may be deficient at this level," she says. "There is some question as to what the clinical cutoff for deficiency should be."
Deficiency can cause a type of anemia marked by fewer but larger red blood cells. It can also cause walking and balance disturbances, a loss of vibration sensation, confusion, and, in advanced cases, dementia. The body requires B12 to make the protective coating surrounding the nerves. So inadequate B12 can expose nerves to damage.
Tucker and colleagues wanted to get a sense of B12 levels spanning the adult population because most previous studies have focused on the elderly. That age group was thought to be at higher risk for deficiency. The researchers also expected to find some connection between dietary intake and plasma levels, even though other studies found no association.
Some of the results were surprising. The youngest group—the 26 to 49 year olds—had about the same B12 status as the oldest group—65 and up. "We thought that low concentrations of B12 would increase with age," says Tucker. "But we saw a high prevalence of low B12 even among the youngest group."
The good news is that for many people, eating more fortified cereals and dairy products can improve B12 status almost as much as taking supplements containing the vitamin. Supplement use dropped the percentage of volunteers in the danger zone (plasma B12 below 185 pmol/L) from 20 percent to 8. Eating fortified cereals five or more times a week or being among the highest third for dairy intake reduced, by nearly half, the percentage of volunteers in that zone—from 23 and 24 percent, respectively, to 12 and 13 percent.
The researchers found no association between plasma B12 and meat, poultry, and fish intake, even though these foods supply the bulk of B12 in the diet. "It’s not because people aren’t eating enough meat," Tucker says. "The vitamin isn’t getting absorbed." The vitamin is tightly bound to proteins in meat and dairy products and requires high acidity to cut it loose. As we age, we lose the acid-secreting cells in the stomach. But what causes poor absorption in younger adults? Tucker speculates that the high use of antacids may contribute. But why absorption from dairy products appears to be better than from meats is a question that needs more research.
Fortified cereals are a different story. She says the vitamin is sprayed on during processing and is "more like what we get in supplements."
It's great if people who post in this thread can share a few lines of info if they post about their B12 deficiency, info that can help others understand more about the "B12 mystery". Please don't take any risks with your health, and don't assume that you are safe because humans living in the wilderness thousands of years ago probably would have gotten all the B12 they needed from water, organic, wild plants and so on. We don't live that way, and have to relate to that.
I had b12 deficiencies after about 8 years as a vegan without taking a supplement and without regular consumption of fortified foods. I went to the doctor after a prolonged period of fatigue (~3 weeks) and my blood tests showed I was quite low in b12 as well as vitamin D. The doctor told me I had to start eating eggs at the very least. Then I went to a different doctor that said I did not have to eat eggs. In fact, eating eggs would probably not help at all. And, there were vegan sources of the things I needed to fix my problems.
I started taking a vegan multivitamin and a separate B12 supplement and I stopped feeling so tired and I even started thinking more clearly within a week or two. I did have neon green urine though. I kept up with that for a while, maybe 3 months then stopped with the separate B12. Now I just take the Veglife vegan one multi and only have neon urine sometimes and do not have any of the problems I had before. Also, my blood tests come out fine except for sometimes having slightly low sodium(I do not eat any salt, just what occurs naturally in my food) and slightly lower than normal urea levels. But, I have been assured that those are fine as long as they don't drop dramatically. And my B12 levels are toward the high range of normal or a little higher than that.
Also, for new vegans that are worried about being deficient in something, it takes quiet a while of lower than recommended nutrients to become deficient in almost anything. Some people will say they tried being vegan for a couple months but became deficient in some thing or another, so they had to stop. But, in order for that to happen, they had to have been eating lower than recommended amounts of that nutrient for years. With only occasional cereals and fortified soy/almond/rice milks and energy drinks it took me 8 years to only start having symptoms of a B12 deficiency. Apparently, it usually only takes a few years, so I was probably eating/drinking fortified foods more than occasionally, but certainly not often and I was definitely not worrying about B12.
yep, simply not tested. But I think I'm deficit in something!!! I feel dizzy sometimes when I walk...
I found out at the beginning of this month that I'm b12 deficient.... though, my doc didnt say it had anything to do with my diet.
My B12 was normal, but low normal, and I had been taking about 1 microgram a day (RDA in Europe). I started taking 100 micrograms a day when I got the results. I have to test it again, but it's not free, so I'll wait some more time.
Hi everyone. This is my first day on this forum Which I found from search google for "vegan b12"
over the past month I have thought I was losing my mind, literally. I have been forgetful, dizzy, blurry/unfocused vision, and well to be honest I feel like I'm becoming an idiot.
I've been vegan for two years this month. I do not take any supplements. After researching this I picked up iron and b12 pills yesterday. My b12 pills are 1000 mcg which seems like a big much and actually I kinda feel even more dizzy for a few hours after I take them. I'm wondering if I should go pay a doctor to stab b12 in my arm for a few months.
I'm usually quite active but for the past month or so just don't have the energy at all. And the dizzy lightheaded feeling isn't something that makes me all that keen on working out.
I don't really know what route to take as of yet but need to figure it out as soon as possible.
Sorry for any typos. I did this from my phone
Good luck, DrewW, in finding out what the cause of your health situation is and in finding a proper way to deal with it...
I've realized that while we have a reply option saying "No/I don't think so/not tested", we don't have a "Yes/I think so/not tested" option.
I know that vegans and non-vegans alike easily may think that if they/a vegan feel tired etc. it's due to low B12 levels. The truth is that many of the symptoms of B12 levels are quite similar to symptoms other health problems that may or may not have to do with nutrient levels... but since we've had several cases (in this and other threads) of people more or less assuming that they have low B12 levels, I feel that we need to either close the poll and start a new one, or possibly just add at last one reply option to this poll (although the result will be somehow skewed (pardon my English; is that the right word?) that way.
The poll is meant for people who either know or assume that they have or have had a B12 deficiency - but it's important to distinguish between people who assume it and people who know it.
Circa 9% of all the /mainly non-veg*n) people studied by Tuft University had a B12 deficiency, and 39% had levels in the 'low, normal' range. This test was taken without taking inactive B12 analogues in the blood into consideration, and MMA/homocysteine levels weren't measured either.
This means that the numbers easily could be twice as high. The results in the poll so far indicates that the amount of vegans who have voted aren't much (%-wise) than the Tuft results on the average population. Most likely, more people are B12 deficient than those who know or assume they are, and this is particularly true for vegans. This is yet another reason for having a poll for people who've actually taken B12 (and ideally, MMA and homocysteine) tests - to reduce the assumption factor as much as possible.
Sorry to hear about the problems, Drew.
I would definitely see a doctor soon, to check if the problem is B12 deficiency or something else, and if it is B12-related to get some advice about whether pills are enough or whether you may benefit more from B12 shots. I wouldn't leave it because it's better to deal with this quickly.
As you'll have read there is a possibility that some people have trouble absorbing B12 orally, so it isn't necessarily anything to do with being vegan.
Just for additional info:
Meat is the primary source of vitamin B12 because its is soley produced by bacteria in animals. However some non-animal sources produce them namely, yeasts, mushrooms, seaweeds (like the the Japanese nori is a very good source or the agar agar which is commonly found in Asian shops which is like jello) and soy products like miso, tempeh or tofu. Also the product brand vegemite (in Australia) which is made from yeasts is also a very good source. I think in the States it's called nutritional yeasts of the Kraft brand.
HI Jivattatva,
With all due respect, both your statements are unfortunately wrong... B12 isn't produced solely by bacteria in animals, and a general statement about B12 being produced by "yeasts, mushrooms, seaweeds", "agar-agar" or "soy products" is wrong and also also potentially very misleading. It may be found is some of these products, and B12 found anywhere are generally classified as either useful/bioavailable, or as inactive B12 'analogues'.
B12 is produced solely by bacteria/cobalt. In order for B12 to be produced, both cobalt and the right type of bacteria need to be present. To claim that eg. miso or tofu produce (or even contain) usable B12 isn't only wrong: it may falsely cause people who eat eg. tofu or mushrooms to believe that they are somehow safe (in terms of B12 levels).
Again: this thread isn't really about B12 sources, but since your brought it up, I found a commentary necessary...
If you are aware of non-animal products that contain B12 - bioavailable or not - please contribute to the B12 in plants?-discussions, and please post links to as scientific sources as possible if you have info that isn't already mentioned in that subforum. Thanks! :-)
Hi Korn
Please read the quotes I got from the links below. Yes mushroom (sure mushroom is not a plant nor is it animal because it is classified as eukaryotes) would have Vit B12 and so does seaweeds like agar agar, found mostly in Asian shops and cooked like Jell-o. Soy products and yeasts can be fortified with Vit B12 analogues which is animal product free.
http://www.vitamins-supplements.org/...12-sources.php
Sources of vitamin B12 (cyanocobalamin, cobalamin)
Vitamin B12 (cyanocobalamin, cobalamin) is found naturally in food sources (principally animal products) in protein-bound forms. Animal products are the principal food sources of vitamin B12. B12 cannot be made by plants or by animals. It is thought that only bacteria (eubacteria, archaebacteria) manufacture the vitamin. The B12 in animal products is derived from bacterial B12 sources. Cyanocobalamin is the principal form of vitamin B12 used in nutritional supplements and for fortification of foods. Methylcobalamin is also available
for nutritional supplementation and hydroxocobalamin is available for parenteral administration. Good sources of vitamin B12 include liver, tuna, cottage cheese, yogurt and eggs. Most standard multivitamin supplements also provide the recommended daily allowance of vitamin B12.
In nature, B12 is solely produced by bacteria found in animals (including humans), so that dirt could actually be considered a natural source of B12. Vitamin B12 is made by bacteria and fungi, but not by yeasts or higher plants. Friendly bacteria reside in large quantities in the gastrointestinal tract of animals and humans. The richest dietary sources of vitamin B12 are liver, especially lamb's liver, and kidneys. Eggs, cheese and some species of fish also supply small amounts, but vegetables and fruits are very poor sources. The richest dietary sources of cobalamin are the liver, brain and kidney. Other sources, include egg yolk, clams, oysters, crabs, sardines, salmon and heart. Lower amounts of cobalamin are found in fish, beef, lamb, pork, chicken, cheese and milk. Plant foods are generally devoid of B12. Some fermented plant products, e.g., tempeh, may have some vitamin B12. Pseudovitamin B12 refers to B12-like substances which are found in certain organisms, such as Spirulina spp. (blue-green algae, cyanobacteria). However, these substances do not have B12 biological activity for humans. Food-form B12 is comprised of protein-bound methylcobalamin and adenosylcobalamin. The only reliable unfortified sources of vitamin B12 are meat, dairy products and eggs. Another alternative source of vitamin B12 is fortified cereal. Other sources of vitamin B12 are fortified soy milk, vitamin B12 fortified meat analogues (food made from wheat gluten or soybeans to resemble meat, poultry or fish)], and vitamin B12 supplements. There are vitamin supplements which do not contain animal products.
Vegans are recommended to ensure their diet includes foods fortified with vitamin B12. A range of B12 fortified foods are available. These include yeast extracts, Vecon vegetable stock, veggieburger mixes, textured vegetable protein, soya milks, vegetable and sunflower margarines, and breakfast cereals. For the lacto-ovo-vegetarian, reliable sources would include dairy products and eggs which can supply substantial amounts of B12. A slice of vegetarian cheddar cheese (40g) contains 0.5 µg. A boiled egg contains 0.7 µg. Fermentation in the manufacture of yoghurt destroys much of the B12 present. Boiling milk can also destroy much of the B12. Mushrooms cultivated on manure enriched compost will contain vitamin B12. If the mushrooms are not over washed before use they will contain some B12. There is 0.26ug of vitamin B12 in 100g of mushrooms. A serving of 4-6 mushrooms weighs 75g. Fermented soy products, such as miso and tempeh, shiitake (dried mushrooms) and algae such as spirulina and nori contain practically no vitamin B12.
http://www.harnisch.com/well/files/pdf/208/agaragar.pdf page 4
Agar-Agar is a functional food ingredient
in terms of its process-performing versatility
and its beneficial contribution to balanced
nutrition. It naturally contains minerals, such
as iron, calcium, magnesium, sodium and
phosphor as well as vitamin B12.
These quotes don't back up your claims about B12 being "solely produced by bacteria in animals" or that seaweeds and tofu produce B12.
The 'information' in your link has lots of inacurate elements (eggs are eg. listed as a good B12 source), but it seems that you (like many others) have misinterpreted some of statements...
"Some fermented plant products, e.g., tempeh, may have some vitamin B12" doesn't mean that tempeh "produce" B12 or that tempeh generally (as in 'always') should be seen as a reliable source of B12. Some tempeh contain B12, other tempeh doesn't, but the important part - namely how bioavailable, for humans, this B12 in tempeh is for the consumer, is often ignored.
In the 80s, many people just assumed that tempeh always produce, or at least contain useful B12. Unfortunately some people still firmly claim this. The other 'school', so to speak, claims the opposite: that useful B12 never can be found in tempeh, or that all the B12 found in always consists of inactive, useless B12 'analogues'.
Something isn't true just because it's written on an internet page, and we have a reminder/announcement about this in the 'B12 in Plants?' section, here: About this subforum / Do plants contain B12?
Back to the two 'extreme' schools of thought: The common thing for both these 'schools' of ("all tempeh contain B12"/"no tempeh contain useful B12") is that usually fail to quote real sources. By real sources I mean scientific research on bioavailable B12 in plants - as opposed to a link to someone else who happen to have written that (they think) tempeh contains B12.
According to your link,"Some fermented plant products, e.g., tempeh, may have some vitamin B12", but also "Fermented soy products, such as miso and tempeh, shiitake (dried mushrooms) and algae such as spirulina and nori contain practically no vitamin B12", and you write that Japanese nori "is a very good source" of B12 and that miso, tempeh or tofu 'produce' B12. (My emphasis.)
We simply have to avoid generalizations when discussing B12 in non-animal sources, which is why we have a dedicated thread for each of the plants/plant products that are claimed to have useful B12. Nori, for example, is discussed here, and actually contains a link to an article claiming that the silica gel 60 TLC and reversed-phase HPLC patterns of the purified pink-colored compound were identical to those of authentic vitamin B12, and not to those of vitamin B12 analogues inactive for humans. Another study in the same thread states (sorry, rats) that vitamin B12 found in nori is bioavailable to rats. A third study suggest that 65% of what they dound in dried nori was cobalamin analogues, but that as much as 73% of the cobalamin homologues in the raw nori were genuine Cobalamin.
A common misunderstanding derived from such studies is that all nori, or all mushrooms contain B12.
I've posted loads of posts about B12 in plants over the years, but I can't point to one single plant today - in the state it's commonly sold in stores - and tell my fellow vegans on this forum that if they just eat this plant regularly, they'll get all the B12 they need.
Even multivitamins, animal products and B12 fortified food may contain so called B12 analogues, so this ain't easy.
One of the worst things we can do is to give someone who only reads a few post here the impression that eg. all nori, all mushrooms or all tofu always should be considered reliable B12 sources. Another big mistake we can do is to claim that one will never find reliable B12 sources in non-animal foods.
Most likely, there's a good number of plants that - in it's fresh, organic, non-chlorinated, non-processed (etc) form can be used as a reliable B12 source. But such plants are rarely consumed in a modern society. That's why I both keep reminding people that they need to make sure they get enough B12 - and at the same time (eg. in order to kill myths about B12 only being produced in animals etc) write about all the findings of B12 in plants, soil and water. I post links to sources whenever I find them, but many "opinions" on both sides are just based on something someone read somewhere. Hence the reminder/announcement above.
Vegans should, in my opinion both avoid to spread myths about plants products never containing B12 and also avoid to spread the idea that B12 only is produced (or only exist) in animals.
Thanks Korn. Very detailed and useful information!
Hi Korn
Thanks for your information and I also look at your 2004 post introducing some points of discussions about B12.
At the outset I’d like to stress that my continued response is not to engage in a debate, more like to further understand the topic and refine my understanding. I am used to group discussions because at work, every week we throw at each other ideas and try to understand and refine each other’s understanding. Myself, I do not take debate or discussions personally. I hope that’s the case with you.
Also I’m sure members here know that the medium of internet forum is just like a medium where people are talking in a living room , talking about topics off the top of their heads, sometime off the cuff. So members of this forum know that they should seek professional advice if B12 is an issue with them. Of course if an internet forum is organized by a recognised expert body and the members have to have a minimum qualifications then that is another matter.
These quotes don't back up your claims about B12 being "solely produced by bacteria in animals" or that seaweeds and tofu produce B12.
I have to admit I am a layman regarding this topic. But I think how I understand it is that B12 found in animal meat is produced by bacteria normally occurring in animals. I think in scientific term it’s called natural flora. Like us humans have bacteria which is normally occurring in our system . And those plants or plant-derived products which have B12 are produced by the bacteria external to its system , (I think this is what they term exogenous) or as a side product of an intended process to produce an intended product. This is what I mean when I wrote that.
The 'informations' in your link has lots of inacurate elements (eggs are eg. listed as a good B12 source), but it seems that you (like many others) have misinterpreted some of statements...
"*Some* fermented plant products, e.g., tempeh, *may* have some vitamin B12" doesn't mean that tempeh "produce" B12 or that tempeh as generally, should be seen as a reliable source of B12. Some tempeh contain B12, other tempeh doesn't, but the important part - namely how bioavailable, for humans, this B12 in tempeh is for the consumer, is often ignored. In the 80s, many people just assumed that tempeh always produce, or at least contain useful B12. Unfortunately some people still firmly claim this. The other 'school', so to speak, claims the opposite: that useful B12 never can be found in tempeh, or that all the B12 found in always consists of inactive, useless B12 'analogues'.
Yes, this is the nature of science, sometimes they have conflicting assertions. And that is the reason science sometimes based their conclusion on consensus. Like though some scientists still question the theory of evolution as formulated by Darwin, the consensus reached by science is that ToE by Darwin explains the complexity and diversity of life.
Something isn't true just because it's written on an internet page, and we have a reminder/announcement about this in the 'B12 in Plants?' section, here: About this subforum / Do plants contain B12? (http://www.veganforum.com/forums/announcement.php?f=22)
Back to the two 'extreme' schools of thought: The common thing for both these 'schools' of ("all tempeh contain B12"/"no tempeh contain useful B12") is that usually fail to quote *real* sources. By real sources I mean scientific research on bioavailable B12 in plants - as opposed to a link to someone else who happen to have written that (they think) tempeh contains B12.
According to your link (my emphasis:), "Some fermented plant products, e.g., tempeh, may have some vitamin B12", but also "Fermented soy products, such as miso and tempeh, shiitake (dried mushrooms) and algae such as spirulina and nori contain practically no vitamin B12", and you write that Japanese nori "is a very good source" of B12 and that miso, tempeh or tofu 'produce' B12.
You are correct, I was conflicting there as I was citing that article. Actually in other studies nori were shown to contain B12. However, that is dried nori which shows that it is processed in some way and so the process of B12 production is exogenous, as in all plants studied so far.
We simply have to avoid generalizations when discussing B12 in non-animal sources, which is why we have a dedicated thread for each of the plants/plant products that are claimed to have useful B12. Nori, for example, is discussed here (http://www.veganforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=259), and actually contains a link to an article claiming that the silica gel 60 TLC and reversed-phase HPLC patterns of the purified pink-colored compound were identical to those of authentic vitamin B12, and not to those of vitamin B12 analogues inactive for humans. Another study in the same thread states (sorry, rats) that vitamin B12 found in nori is bioavailable to rats. A third study suggest that 65% of what they dound in dried nori was cobalamin analogues, but that as much as 73% of the cobalamin homologues in the raw nori were genuine Cobalamin.
A common misunderstanding derived from such studies is that all nori, or all mushrooms contains B12.
I've posted loads of posts about B12 in plants over the years, but I can't point to one single plant today and tell my fellow vegans on this forum that if they just eat this plant regularly, they'll get all the B12 they need.
Even multivitamins, animal products and B12 fortified food may contain so called B12 analogues, so this ain't easy.
One of the worst thing we can do is to give someone who only reads a few post here the impression that eg. all nori, all mushrooms or all tofu always should be considered reliable B12 sources. Another other big mistake we can do is to claim that one will never find reliable B12 sources in non-animal foods.
You are right in emphasizing this and I was generalizing which I should'nt. But of course an exogenous process will result in uncertain contents because it is dependent very much on external environment/process, is that not right?
I think the studies so far have not found a very reliable plant source. But of course that does not mean they will never find them in the future.
I think vegans will not be hurt if they eat those products that may contain B12.
Most likely, there's a good number of plants that - in it's fresh, organic, non-chlorinated, non-processed (etc) form can be used as a reliable B12 source. But in reality such plants are rarely consumed in a modern society. That's why I both keep reminding people that they need to make sure they get enough B12 and at the same time (eg. in order to kill myths about B12 only being produced in animals etc) write about all the findings of B12 in plants, soil and water. I post links to sources whenever I find them, but many "opinions" on both sides are just based on something someone read somewhere. Hence the reminder/announcement above.
Vegans should, in my opinion both avoid to spread myths about plants products never containing B12 and also avoid to spread the idea that B12 only is produced (or only exist) in animals.
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I had a B12 deficiency six months after I first went vegan. I'd been close to vegetarian before that, so my levels were probably pretty low to start with. I got sick. I supplement now :).
After 6 years and more than 22,000 people visiting this thread, only one person voted for the "Yes, with serious, non-curable symtoms (eg. neurological damage)" option. That's still one too much... so here are a couple of links about the rare cases of B12 deficiency and neurologic dysfunction, suggesting that with early diagnosis and intervention, permanent damage can be avoided. The best solution os of course to make sure one never ends up needing such treatment.
Recovery of neurologic dysfunction with early intervention of vitamin B12.
Neurologic findings of nutritional vitamin B12 deficiency in children.Quote:
J Clin Neuromuscul Dis. 2010 Jun;11(4):198-202.
Recovery of neurologic dysfunction with early intervention of vitamin B12.
Ahmed A, Kothari MJ.
Penn State College of Medicine, Hershey Medical Center, Department of Neurology, Hershey, PA 17033, USA.
Abstract
A patient developed numbness and tingling in distal extremities with subsequent weakness. Evaluation revealed B12 deficiency. She had evidence of myelopathy on imaging studies and polyneuropathy on electrodiagnostic testing. Treatment with B12 caused remittance of symptoms and resolution/improvement of abnormalities found on the imaging and electrodiagnostic studies. This case demonstrates that early intervention with B12 supplementation can cause reversal of both central and peripheral nervous system dysfunction.
PMID: 20516808 [PubMed - in process]
Quote:
Turk J Pediatr. 2010 Jan-Feb;52(1):17-21.
Neurologic findings of nutritional vitamin B12 deficiency in children.
Incecik F, Hergüner MO, Altunbaşak S, Leblebisatan G.
Divisions of Pediatric Neurology, Department of Pediatrics, tukurova University Faculty of Medicine, Adana, Turkey.
Abstract
We report herein our interesting case series of 15 infants admitting with neurological symptoms who were found to have vitamin B12 deficiency. Infants who were admitted to our hospital between 2004 and 2007 with neurological symptoms and were found to have vitamin B12 deficiency were included in this study. Data regarding clinical and laboratory features were obtained. Of 15 infants, 9 were boys (60%) and 6 were girls (40%). The mean age was 11.7 months. Anorexia, pallor, hypotonia, and neurodevelopmental retardation were present in all infants. Seizures and tremor were observed in 46.6% (7/15) and 33% (5/15) of patients, respectively. Seizures were generalized tonic-clonic in 4 patients, generalized tonic in 1 patient and focal in 2 patients. Four patients had tremor on admission and 1 patient had occurrence after vitamin B12 treatment. Vitamin B12 deficiency may lead to serious neurological deficits in addition to megaloblastic anemia. Persistent neurological damage can be prevented with early diagnosis and treatment. We believe that a thorough clinical and neurological assessment might prevent failure to notice rare but possible vitamin B12 deficiency in infants with neurological deficits and neurodevelopmental retardation.
PMID: 20402062 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
I was feeling odd and generally unwell so I went to the doc's and got an overall checkup with bloodwork... B12 deficiency tahdah!
I'm concerned as I was already taking supplements on my own and they now put me on new one my GP prescribed (yay free vitamins for me). If I developed a deficiency while supplementing and the new supplements don't correct it then it may not be a dietary issue, it may be a stomach issue (I have an ulcer, hiatal hernia and GERD, plus other fun) in which no amount of ingestible B12 will work for me. We'll see.
So, it doesn't seem mine was caused by veganhood, but I'll know better after next bloodwork. If it was, then I just needed a different supplement, np. If it wasn't, then I need to start injections probably.
I'm vegan for 3 and a half years now and at my recent dental check up my dentist commented on a slight hint of redness (more like pinkness) around the corners of my mouth and asked me about my B vitamin intake.
I take only a calcium supplement, a bit of magnesium to go with it, Vitamin C and some kyolic garlic.
Is this a known symptom of B12 vit deficiency?
Reading this thread, I can definitely identify with some of the other symptoms like worsening memory, not feeling as clear-headed as I used to, etc.
I started taking a B complex with 25 micrograms of B12.
Is that a high enough quantity per day to see a noticeable improvement in a month or 2?
Hi Insomniak,Quote:
I started taking a B complex with 25 micrograms of B12.
Is that a high enough quantity per day to see a noticeable improvement in a month or 2?
I don't think it's a good idea to respond to such questions - not only because you don't know if you're B12 deficient, but because if you are, you would need to find out how low your levels are. You may have no B12 deficiency at all, or you may need to supplement with high amounts than 25 mcg/day as soon as possible
This is thread for people who know they have a case of B12 deficiency - don't get this wrong, but please let us know if you find out that you have one... :-)
This thread reminds me that I should get my blood test done, it was about a year ago last time. I have been eating quite low daily doses of 3 micrograms. But haven't had any symptoms of deficiency at all, it will be interesting to see if there has been a change since last time. I ordered some strong methylcobalamin from iherb, maybe it would be best to first check my levels before I start taking them. I might need to take like only two to three pills a week of that if my levels are normal.
I've never had B12 deficiency - levels were normal when tested - but my partner has, back when he was a meat-eater.