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Re: Reasons to go - or not go - organic...
Personally i do feel confused with the organic debate - i read somewhere recently that organic farmers can still spray produce which i had naiively thought they didn't.
l honestly feel that the only real ethical way to grow food is on a small, local basis, either backyard growing or small co-ops.
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Re: Organic Food Myths
Quote:
gogs67
I noticed reading through some of the older articles there seemed to be a corporated 'bias'!
The links on the front page were interesting as well!!
It's important to note that none of these "groups" amount to anything other than websites set up by Rick Berman who is paid millions of dollars to do so. It all started with the tobacco company Philip Morris in 1995. Within three years they had paid him and his small staff (currently about 28 people but back then just a handful) 3 million dollars. Once this business model was proven effective, all the other companies promoting unhealthy products wanted in on the action. There's nothing "consumer freedom" about his lies. He is anti-consumer, pro-big business, and pro-deception.
More info:
http://www.consumerdeception.com/
PCRM
It's hard to imagine how this guy sleeps at night.:confused:
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Re: Reasons to go - or not go - organic...
Quote:
cobweb
honestly feel that the only real ethical way to grow food is on a small, local basis, either backyard growing or small co-ops.
I still prefer organic because I think that the growers, or the people who monitor the growers, are at least trying to minimise damage to the environment, though they may not be the only ones.
Not so sure about supermarket organic stuff but the fruit and veg we get delivered are supposed to be bought from a co-op and come from smaller-scale growers http://www.woodfieldorganics.com/AboutUs.aspx
I have next to no interest in growing food myself so would rather pay someone else to do it but ideally it would be where I could keep an eye on them, and would be veganic.
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Re: Reasons to go - or not go - organic...
ah, now that is another point, Harpy, when i say 'organic' i am ONLY thinking of supermarket organic, as that is the only way i can buy stuff that is labelled/certified organic, unfortunately.
Had i the option to buy from a local veggie box scheme then i definitely would.
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Re: Organic Food Myths
Quote:
Mahk
It's hard to imagine how this guy sleeps at night.:confused:
Sadly, i would imagine he sleeps better than most of us!
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Re: 10 reasons to go organic....or not?
Quote:
Korn
Thanxs for the post Korn!
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Re: 10 reasons to go organic....or not?
There are good farming methods and bad farming methods, and good farming methods result in vegetables with more micronutrients, different macronutrient profiles, and better flavor, than bad farming methods. The secret to good farming is two-fold: 1. have soil with a good tilth that enables plants to do a better job of absorbing nutrients from the soil, via their roots and 2. make sure your soil has adequate amounts of the macronutrient and micronutrients that your plants need.
If these nutrients are in soil with a poor tilth, they will not be as readily absorbed by the plants. So both are important.
Conventional farmers, who use industrially-produced plant foods, and industrially produced pesticides, can indeed meet these requirements for good soil. But it is often cheaper and easier not to. Organic farmers are more likely to have soil with a good tilth, but just following the legal requirements for organically grown is not enough. So I would tend to judge produce by the soil tilth and nutrient profile rather than by whether it is organically grown or not. Either method can produce worser or better food. Personally, I consider organic growing to be a belief system with no scientific backing. That doesn't mean that things can't work out well, it just means it is the result of tradition rather than science. And tradition has some value. But I prefer my tradition to be backed by science. I like to use traditional methods that have been proven by science to have value - such as using lots of compost, cover crops and green manures. There is no harm in using industrially produced nutrients in addition to using these traditional cientifically proven methods. however if you use industrially produced nutrients instead of compost, green manures, and cover crops, as many farmers do, to reduce costs, you are going to have plants with less micronutrients (I'm talking about nutrient usable by humans here, in this sentence, not the micro and macronutrient that plants need, which overlap those that humans need), a differnet macronutrient profile, and poorer taste. Not all organic farmers use enough compost covercrops and green manures either but still get certified organic, simply becuae they have not used industrially-produced nutrients.
It is like sugar for humans. If you substitute sugar for fruit, you will not grow or function as well. If you eat enough fruit, supplementing that with white sugar in small amounts, is not going to harm you. Same goes for plants. If they have enough of the one and two I mentioned, supplementing that with industrially produce nutrients will not only not harm them, but it could, in many circumstances, enable larger yields, even if 1 and 2 are ideal.
And by the way it is certainly untrue that a plants chemical makeup depends only on its genetics and is unrelated to how it is grown. Like all living things, both genetics, and environment, influence how they grow, and how they are. The effect of envirnoment on plant growth can be quite dramatic. Agricultivation results in plants that are much larger and differently developed than the genetically identical plants that grow naturally. Humans have learned how to greatly increase the nutrition available to plants, as compared to what they can find naturally, in natural soil. A wild mustard plant, for example, will grow about 10 times as large when its seeds are collected and are planted in agricultural soil, as it will in the wild.
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Re: Organic Food Myths
Although I really resent the article's approach of prejudice when it comes to people who wear tie-dye shirts and have dreadlocks, and how it seems to make fun of us "free-spirits" as hypocritical uneducated peace-mongers, I can't help but agree with the following paragraph:
Quote:
Risker
....
Some supporters of organic growing claim that the danger of non-organic food lies in the residues of chemical pesticides. This claim is even more ridiculous: Since the organic pesticides and fungicides are less efficient than their modern synthetic counterparts, up to seven times as much of it must be used. Organic pesticides include rotenone, which has been shown to cause the symptoms of Parkinson's Disease and is a natural poison used in hunting by some native tribes; pyrethrum, which is carcinogenic; sabadilla, which is highly toxic to honeybees; and fermented urine, which I don't want on my food whether it causes any diseases or not. Supporters of organics claim that the much larger amounts of chemicals they use is OK because those chemicals are all-natural. But just because something is natural doesn't mean that it's safe or healthy consider the examples of hemlock, mercury, lead, toadstools, box jellyfish neurotoxin, asbestos not to mention a nearly infinite number of toxic bacteria and viruses (E. coli, salmonella, bubonic plague, smallpox). When you hear any product claim to be healthy because its ingredients are all natural, be skeptical. By no definition can "all natural" mean that a product is healthful.
It's like when people go on about magic mushrooms being "natural" and therefore perfectly healthy for human consumption. They're still a poison, regardless of whether they are found in nature or not.
I have been getting most of my produce from a local organic farm that distributes out of a college student-run anti-capitalist primarily vegan food co-op. The cost of this organic local produce is actually much cheaper than non-organic produce elsewhere. You can even go work on the farm on weekends during the warmer seasons if you like. I think I will take myself on a field trip there next year for a weekend to observe exactly how my food is grown, and to see what natural pesticides and fungicides are used and compare it with non-organic local farms. From there, I can make my decision on whether to stay organic or not.
I also don't like the idea about more manure being used to produce organic.
I think it's important to point out that the article seems to be one of those facetious attempts to get people to feel like their environmental/vegan efforts are hopeless, that we can't completely eliminate our footprint, so we "may as well not do anything at all". We just have to not let them do that to us, and KEEP DOING AS MUCH AS WE CAN, regardless that we can't be PERFECT.
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Re: 10 Top Reasons to Go Organic
Quote:
soilman
It is essential that we end the cycle of plant production that depends on animal waste, and animal production that depends on plant agriculture. We must divorce plant agriculture from animal agriculture. Organic plant husbandry is more closely tied to this cycle, and to animal husbandry, than either ordinary commercial farming or vegan farming.
Amen.
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Re: Organic Food Myths
Quote:
mahk
Rick berman.
wow.
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Re: 10 reasons to go organic....or not?
i recently read that potatoes produce more toxins (to repel pets and disease) if they are not treated chemically, and therefore are 'worse' for you than organic potatoes (which i had previously read are full of chemicals and therefore 'bad' for me! *sigh*).
I'm currently preparing a space in the garden for some seed potatoes.
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Re: Organic Food Myths
Quote:
songlife
Although I really resent the article's approach of prejudice when it comes to people who wear tie-dye shirts and have dreadlocks, and how it seems to make fun of us "free-spirits" as hypocritical uneducated peace-mongers, I can't help but agree with the following paragraph:
It's like when people go on about magic mushrooms being "natural" and therefore perfectly healthy for human consumption. They're still a poison, regardless of whether they are found in nature or not.
I have been getting most of my produce from a local organic farm that distributes out of a college student-run anti-capitalist primarily vegan food co-op. The cost of this organic local produce is actually much cheaper than non-organic produce elsewhere. You can even go work on the farm on weekends during the warmer seasons if you like. I think I will take myself on a field trip there next year for a weekend to observe exactly how my food is grown, and to see what natural pesticides and fungicides are used and compare it with non-organic local farms. From there, I can make my decision on whether to stay organic or not.
I also don't like the idea about more manure being used to produce organic.
I think it's important to point out that the article seems to be one of those facetious attempts to get people to feel like their environmental/vegan efforts are hopeless, that we can't completely eliminate our footprint, so we "may as well not do anything at all". We just have to not let them do that to us, and KEEP DOING AS MUCH AS WE CAN, regardless that we can't be PERFECT.
Yeah, I pretty much agree with this sentiment. I would have to do more research about organic versus non-organic, but some of the conclusions in the article seemed logical, and I would tend to agree with them.
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Re: 10 reasons to go organic....or not?
We get our veg delivered weekly from an organic but not veganic farm - they control slugs by getting chickens to roam on the soil first eating them all up, then they sow the plants and the chickens move to the next patch. They don't kill the boy chicks, but the fully grown birds are all killed and sold, mostly at Christmas time. They also sell the eggs. I imagine the chicken poo will eventually fertilise the soil, but its pretty toxic stuff raw I think.
Its considerably cheaper than buying organic veg at the supermarket - compares favourably with buying ordinary veg there. But it does get dull, esp at this time of year. They use as little imported food as possible, but they do bring in bananas, mangoes, avocados and oranges. Everything else is seasonal and locally grown. So at the moment, our only fruits are apples, bananas and oranges with the occ mango. But in summer its luscious - loads of local berries and plums (we come from an area famous for its plums). They grow all sorts of interesting veg, but there is hardly any at the moment - basically kale, potatoes, cabbages, carrots and onions
Its not a perfect system, but its the best we've got locally. The only way to do vegan organic here would be to do it ourselves. I have tried the last couple of years, but the slugs eat everything that the the blight doesn't get. I'm told to be patient because one year it may not rain continuously. I just gave up half way through last year and stopped even looking at the garden. Someone said earlier that gardening organically was no harder. Its much harder for me.
I was interested in the comment by soil man that conventional food grown well can be as nutritious as organic food especially if it's grown badly. The problem is that conventional farmers can't grow food well and remain in business without some way to mark their product as premium (which is one effect of organic labelling). My dad is a conventional but very small scale farmer (livestock sadly) who doesn't farm intensively and his farm is struggling because he can't compete with his herd of 20 named cows and a few pigs, sheep, chickens against agribusiness.
I think the answer is ideally local vegan organic, but since that must be impossible for the majority of people, and is not going to be the answer to all our food needs, unless our diet gets very limited. I'm never going to be able to grow wheat in my garden, and despite the wet summers, its not steep enough for me to terrace for rice:D
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Re: 10 reasons to go organic....or not?
Quote:
Verencemos
I was interested in the comment by soil man that conventional food grown well can be as nutritious as organic food especially if it's grown badly.
And organic food grown well can be as nutritious as conventional food especially if grown badly.
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Re: 10 reasons to go organic....or not?
didn't put that well. luckily you knew what I meant
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Re: 10 reasons to go organic....or not?
Theres a lot to read here and personally i don't think there is a perfect solution to this, it's a fucked up world. Organic is not vegan they use blood and bonemeal yuk, manure is an iffy one some say ok others not. Non organic uses pesticides etc bad for us bad for the environment.
so i'm growing my own thats my solution i wont be able to feed the whole family but i should be able to grow most of my salad veg to keep us going. So my patio this year with have pots of carrots on instead of geraniums, and that old dustbin, well !potatoes, as for the hanging baskets forget the trailing lobelia trailing tomatoes.
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Re: 10 reasons to go organic....or not?
As topcat intimated, vegan-organic is an impossible ideal. What about bird and animal droppings plus the fact that most soil and compost has been through the gut of animals (worms etc)? We compost our own wastes. Is that vegan? ;)
This is not to belittle veganic growing - far from it, it's a tongue-in-cheek comment. Vegan organic, combined with permaculture and intensive growing, is the ideal. It avoids the question of land over-use and habitat destruction because it seeks to promote the opposite.
By growing intensively (closely-spaced companion planting) in top-quality soil, the use of any pesticides is curtailed as pests tend to attack weaker plants or are put off by the proximity of plants they dislike.
Physical barriers to pests are worth a lot of study, too, such as a 'wall' of fine mesh around carrots prevents carrot root fly attack, as they can only fly about 20 to 25 inches above the ground.
Vegetable manure, properly composted, avoiding diseased, acidic and poisonous material, builds up the soil over the years, adding organic matter and holding nutrients.
Animal manure tends, over time, to make the soil more acidic. Horse manure particularly is a waste of time as the content is so little changed from the original, why not use the original and cut out the middle person?
Animal manure is a cheap, almost free by-product, which is possibly the main driver in its use. On a stock-free growing area, all materials should be composted and 'green manure', plants which are grown specifically to help enrich the soil, is grown.
Two highly practical books recommended for anyone considering growing their own food are:
How to grow more vegetables (and fruits, nuts, berries, grains and other crops) than you ever thought possible on less land than you can imagine by John Jeavons and
Plants for a future, edible and useful plants for a healthier world by Ken Fern
Both books justifiably scorn the use of animal products in growing food.
Risker's article came at the question from a distasteful angle and I wouldn't set much store by it. It's hardly worth commenting on but unfortunately the author will receive much more coverage than vegan-organic growers will.
The more companies growing organically - big and small - the better. See my comments about healthy plants regarding the notion that there are more residues in organic than non-organic and read about intensive methods and permaculture regarding the land use issue.
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Re: 10 Top Reasons to Go Organic
Quote:
theashleybeyer
I'm waiting for my grocer to get organic grapes. i rarely eat normal grapes because they seem like little pkgs of pesticides.. i just have an overactive imagination. :o
I recently bought some organic grapes.
I love red grapes, one of my favourite fruits. I could eat a whole pack at one sitting but I dislike (a) buying stuff in plastic and (b) the fact that many grapes travel huge distances, such as from Chile etc. If they were fair trade I wouldn't have as much of a problem.
The organic grapes were the best I have ever tasted. This is no exaggeration. They were simply unbelievably different. They were absolutely indescribable compared with toxic produce. The only drawback was them coming all the way from Argentina to Ireland, in plastic. Can't win 'em all...
I also found some organic oranges from Spain in the local wholefood shop. Again, there is no comparison with the muck found in supermarkets.
Even organic food in supermarkets is suspect, largely because these businesses like to buy cheap, cheap, cheap. Several times I've found supermarket organics to be of low quality. This does no-one any good at all.
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Re: 10 Top Reasons to Go Organic
Quote:
DavidT
I recently bought some organic grapes.
I love red grapes, one of my favourite fruits. I could eat a whole pack at one sitting but I dislike (a) buying stuff in plastic and (b) the fact that many grapes travel huge distances, such as from Chile etc. If they were fair trade I wouldn't have as much of a problem.
The organic grapes were the best I have ever tasted. This is no exaggeration. They were simply unbelievably different. They were absolutely indescribable compared with toxic produce. The only drawback was them coming all the way from Argentina to Ireland, in plastic. Can't win 'em all...
I also found some organic oranges from Spain in the local wholefood shop. Again, there is no comparison with the muck found in supermarkets.
Even organic food in supermarkets is suspect, largely because these businesses like to buy cheap, cheap, cheap. Several times I've found supermarket organics to be of low quality. This does no-one any good at all.
I would recommend that taking organic foods is just great for your health and this makes you really feel good.Recently, I had come across a great supplier of Organic foods which had NinjaGreens Organic Supplements that I would recommend to the organic food lovers.
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Re: 10 reasons to go organic (or not)?
I haven't read all this thread just odd posts. I personally buy organic when cost permits and when available. The majority of my fruit/veg is organic purely because of the pesticides used. I can't afford to pay what I class as 'silly' prices for a piece of fruit/veg I have seen some astronomical prices on the web for a single piece. I do get deliveries of veg/fruit boxes twice a month but get the things that don't come in them from the supermarkets and things to last us inbetween deliveries. Organic there is always more expensive, with a limited selection and regular fruit/veg usually works out the same as what I paid for organic in my box deliveries! Organic doesn't always last the same as non-organic but this confirms to me that they are not using pesticides. :)
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Re: 10 reasons to go organic (or not)?
Our veg at home is grown vegan organic.
Now, I'm sure there's something psychological about this, but our home-grown food tastes 'clean'. Whenever I eat prepared/bought vegan food, it seems to give me a (bloated?) feeling, not really sure of how to describe it. Getting back to basic, simple, fresh food is cleansing in some difficult-to-define way.
Even if it is purely psychological, I don't care, it's all fun!
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Re: 10 reasons to go organic (or not)?
Aye, it's all gravy baby! :thumbsup:
ETA there are some smashing offers on organic at the minute (at the supermarkets), which contradicts my earlier post!
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Re: 10 reasons to go organic (or not)?
I come at organic produce from a different angle than normal. I have eaten solely organic food (except things which can't be, e.g. salt) for the last three years.
This is less because of some vague 'oh it's better for the environment' thought, and more because I don't see non-organic food as fitting the definition of vegan.
Pesticides are designed specifically to kill animals (and also kill animals other than their intended targets). Killing animals deliberately, for your own gain, is not vegan. Spraying it on a field may not seem as aggressive as shooting every greenfly with a miniature bullet, but it has exactly the same effect.
In the UK, 7-12 organic pesticides are permitted, depending on the certification authority. The Soil Association now requires that if you want to use any of them, you must a) get their permission in advance and b) come up with a plan for avoiding having to use them again. There's also the possibility of them using e.g. gelatine in insect traps, but then non-organic producers also use animal inputs (including manure as mentioned). It's not perfect, but until stockfree-organic systems are widespread, or every vegan has the time and space to grow their own food, I think it's the best we can do for now.
There are also issues with the companies which produce artificial fertilisers and pesticides - they're pharmaceutical/agri-business conglomerates which you probably aren't that fond of already, for animal testing reasons. So why support them?
I should add that my food is only from small producers/shops, not supermarkets. I know people have this idea that organic food is more expensive, but that has more to do with economies of scale than the genuine cost of producing equivalent items. Anyway, we (several guinea pigs, a dog and two humans) have lived organically (toiletries/cleaning products and clothes as well as food) on £12k p.a., so it isn't hard if you have the right priorities.
With regard to the points about soya earlier, it's perfectly possible to grow it in Europe (Germany grows quite a bit of organic soya), and there's nothing wrong with a bit of shipping (by sea, not air freight) of produce which doesn't grow here, provided the bulk of our food is more locally-produced.
There was also a false dichotomy given earlier - the choice isn't between foreign organic apples and local conventional ones, there are UK-grown organic apples.
Even if there weren't, the choice isn't quite so complicated as it might seem - have you calculated the relative environmental cost of both the production and use of oil-based fertilisers and pesticides, as compared to shipping an equivalent apple from New Zealand? I couldn't find very accurate data to use, but as a rough estimate I once worked out that the foreign organic apple was better by at least one order of magnitude!
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Re: 10 reasons to go organic (or not)?
Surely you should be buying organic and/or local too? Considering the effects transportation has on the enviroment. I try to do both, or atleast local. But I've also been told that there's very little difference between organic and non-organic, and the only truely organic veg/fruit is what you grow yourself.
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Re: 10 reasons to go organic (or not)?
Oh I don't dispute that - most of my veg is UK-grown, European if not. But rice doesn't grow in the UK, and there's nothing inherently unsustainable about trading foods which only grow in certain parts of the world. The only issue is the method of transportation. And you may well see modern-style sailing ships in use for freight before too long. I wasn't saying not to bother buying local, but if there is a choice only between foreign organic and local conventional, I would still go for the organic option for the reasons in my last post.
If you take one of those eco-footprint quizzes floating round the web, and choose the vegan option for your food, you'll see that the food proportion of your whole impact is tiny. The big things are goods and services (assuming your transport is also low, if you don't drive/fly), some of which you can control (e.g. buying secondhand furniture), others you can't (services paid for by your council tax etc). So the whole importing food thing, while important, has far less impact anyway if you're already vegan - if you are going to spend time focusing on what to reduce it may as well be something which makes more of a difference. What I mean is, it's good to make an effort in that direction, but there's no need to feel too guilty if you occasionally eat some organic oranges shipped from north Africa.
It depends on the operation, as someone pointed out earlier, much organic produce is grown by the same big companies and using similar methods to conventional items. But it's certainly not true that commercially available organic produce is hardly different to non-organic - you just have to choose who you buy from carefully. Smaller producers will be less likely to monocrop and more likely to companion plant, somewhat like how you might grow on a really big allotment.
Of course you could go the easy route and plant an edible forest garden, vegan-permaculture style! Requires very little maintenance, once planned and planted. It's got all the advantages of foraged food, but with the added benefit that you decide exactly what you want to eat, and have it conveniently all in one place.
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Re: 10 reasons to go organic (or not)?
songlife "I also don't like the idea about more manure being used to produce organic."
Not only is animal excrement used as a manure, but animal bones and animal blood (blood collected at slaughterhouses) are used as manure, by organic farmers and gardeners. Of course, non-organic farmers and gardeners can use these products too. However they tend to use them less, because they are a more expensive way to increase yield, than plant food made from aerial nitrogen reacted with natural gas (so-called chemical fertilizer).
verencemos "conventional farmers can't grow food well and remain in business without some way to mark their product as premium"
I appreciate what you are saying and I believe you are correct. People, especially wholesalers, are often just looking for the cheapest they can buy. Farmers who use sustainable agriculture would have to find a way to communicate to people why it is better to buy food plants that have been grown in soil with good tilth, and a good nutrient profile from seeds of cultivars selected for flavor rather than appearance and shipability and shelflife. I know that some people will buy cold stored (picked many weeks or months previously) western apples, shipped across the continent, that have been shined up with oil, before they will buy fresh-picked apples, shipped from just a couple hundred miles away, with their natural dull surface. To me, the natural dull surface looks more appealing. These apples smell better as you walk by them. But I've heard shoppers praising the shined up apples and denigrating the dull ones. I think the solution is branding. Labeling produce with the actual farm it came from, and advertisements explaining why it both tastes better and is more nutritious if it came from that farm. Or even just explain how it tastes better because it picked up more nutrients from soil with better tilth. I know it can be done. Branding. I am so convinced that it would be successful, that I thinking about how, after awhile, methods of stopping counterfeiters would likely need to be instituted also.
One issue is the issue of picking. Growers of snap beans (beans that are picked and eaten with their pods, before the beans mature) have worked hard to develop cultivars on which all the pods mature at the same time, so they can be picked by going down the row of beans once, instead of once a week for 6 weeks. And grew in compact, easy to access by machine bushes, instead of climbing and spreading out all over the place. Cheaper harvesting costs. At first these bush-form, pick-at-once varieties just didn't taste awfully good at all. After years of breeding, they finally got them so that they tasted fairly tolerable. But still not like the "original" snap beans. Which, these days, most people in industrialized countries may have never tasted! These bush varieties got marketed to backyard gardeners also, and seed catalogs usually don't make it clear how much better the taste is of the climbing varieties that produce over a long period, or how advantages it is for a backyard gardener, as opposed to a large scale farmer, to have a few quarts a week for 6 weeks, from the same small row of plants, instead of a few bushels all on one day? Sweet and juicy and with a snappier snap when you snap them, with wonderfully aromatic juice flying out when you snap them, much better aroma when you snap them, and a much better texture when you chew them, either raw or steamed.
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Re: 10 reasons to go organic (or not)?
Quote:
soilman
I know that some people will buy cold stored (picked many weeks or months previously) western apples, shipped across the continent, that have been shined up with oil, before they will buy fresh-picked apples, shipped from just a couple hundred miles away, with their natural dull surface. To me, the natural dull surface looks more appealing. These apples smell better as you walk by them. But I've heard shoppers praising the shined up apples and denigrating the dull ones. I think the solution is branding. Labeling produce with the actual farm it came from, and advertisements explaining why it both tastes better and is more nutritious if it came from that farm. Or even just explain how it tastes better because it picked up more nutrients from soil with better tilth. I know it can be done.
Hear hear. We have those shined-up apples here, sometimes imported from the US even though Britain is a perfectly good environment for growing apples. I never understand why anyone wants them, they look as if they're made of plastic. Meanwhile orchards here are being grubbed up because they're not profitable :mad: http://www.geographical.co.uk/Magazi..._-_Nov_08.html
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Re: 10 reasons to go organic (or not)?
From eating food grown in more than one place, over several years, I learned something that surprised me at first (this was 40 years ago): with many kinds of f's and v's, when you eat them, you can smell and taste the soil in which they were grown. Go to a few fields. Say 3. Go to 3 different geographical regions, or go to 3 different farms that use distinct methods of manuring the soil. From each, pick up a handful of soil and put it near your nose. Smell it. Then plant the same apple variety, or the same potato variety, etcetera, in each field, harvest it, and taste it. You'll be able to name which apple came from which field. This is probably mostly due to nasal sensory tissues, but it is perceived as taste.
We can taste whether food was grown in chicken feces or cattle feces. We can taste the kind of composted was used. This is not due to soil clinging to the food. It is due to tiny tiny amounts of material that the plant absorbs through its roots. Most likely it is the metabolic products of micro-organisms that thrive on the organic matter in the soil. Our noses are extraordinarily sensitive to these substance, to very low concentrations of them. Their essence pervades the fruit or vegetable.
Soil character adds a distinctive character to food grown in it. The food has its own character, genetically-determined, and it also has an environmentally-determined character, which for food plants, has a lot to do with the water and soil it was grown in. When you are eating produce, you are in a way, really eating soil. I think the influence of soil type is more important than most people realize. Cultivating plants is about cultivating soil. You cultivate the bacteria that live in soil, by your selection, first, of field, and second, by how you manure your field, by what sort of compost or green manure or mulch you use.
When you are eating vegan grown f&v's, you are eating essense of the f or v, as well as essence of oak leaf and maple leaf, alfalfa, oats, and buckwheat (cover crops that are composted). When you are eating conventionally organically grown food, in addition to eating essence of f or v, you are also eating essense of blood, bone, and feces.
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Re: 10 reasons to go organic (or not?)
From Fruit and Soil Quality of Organic and Conventional Strawberry Agroecosystems:
Quote:
Background
Sale of organic foods is one of the fastest growing market segments within the global food industry. People often buy organic food because they believe organic farms produce more nutritious and better tasting food from healthier soils. Here we tested if there are significant differences in fruit and soil quality from 13 pairs of commercial organic and conventional strawberry agroecosystems in California.
Methodology/Principal Findings
At multiple sampling times for two years, we evaluated three varieties of strawberries for mineral elements, shelf life, phytochemical composition, and organoleptic properties. We also analyzed traditional soil properties and soil DNA using microarray technology. We found that the organic farms had strawberries with longer shelf life, greater dry matter, and higher antioxidant activity and concentrations of ascorbic acid and phenolic compounds, but lower concentrations of phosphorus and potassium. In one variety, sensory panels judged organic strawberries to be sweeter and have better flavor, overall acceptance, and appearance than their conventional counterparts. We also found the organically farmed soils to have more total carbon and nitrogen, greater microbial biomass and activity, and higher concentrations of micronutrients. Organically farmed soils also exhibited greater numbers of endemic genes and greater functional gene abundance and diversity for several biogeochemical processes, such as nitrogen fixation and pesticide degradation.
Conclusions/Significance
Our findings show that the organic strawberry farms produced higher quality fruit and that their higher quality soils may have greater microbial functional capability and resilience to stress. These findings justify additional investigations aimed at detecting and quantifying such effects and their interactions.
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Re: 10 reasons to go organic (or not)?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xAX_tAZg9mw
PULLMAN, Wash.Side-by-side comparisons of organic and conventional strawberry farms and their fruit found the organic farms produced more flavorful and nutritious berries while leaving the soil healthier and more genetically diverse.
"Our findings have global implications and advance what we know about the sustainability benefits of organic farming systems," said John Reganold, Washington State University Regents professor of soil science and lead author of a paper published today in the peer-reviewed online journal, PLoS ONE. "We also show you can have high quality, healthy produce without resorting to an arsenal of pesticides."
From WSU Research Finds Organic Farms Produce Better Fruit, Leave Healthier Soil:
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Among their findings:
The organic strawberries had significantly higher antioxidant activity and concentrations of ascorbic acid and phenolic compounds.
The organic strawberries had longer shelf life.
The organic strawberries had more dry matter, or, "more strawberry in the strawberry."
Anonymous testers, working at times under red light so the fruit color would not bias them, found one variety of organic strawberries was sweeter, had better flavor, and once a white light was turned on, appearance. The testers judged the other two varieties to be similar.
The researchers also found the organic soils excelled in a variety of key chemical and biological properties, including carbon sequestration, nitrogen, microbial biomass, enzyme activities, and micronutrients.
DNA analysis found the organically managed soils had dramatically more total and unique genes and greater genetic diversity, important measures of the soil's resilience to stress and ability to carry out essential processes.
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Re: 10 reasons to go organic (or not?)
Overall, it's only sense that organically-grown is the way forward, preferably veganic.
It's alright playing devil's advocate and saying 'modern pesticides can be much less toxic than some organic pesticides' but we need to avoid pesticides altogether, something small organic farmers are far more likely to do. I mean, why would you want to kill anything, chemically or organically?
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Risker
With the lower crop yields of organic production more land is needed... hence more habitat destruction.
This is not true - at least, not in my experience. We produce loads of food on a quite small area; indeed, one of the beauties of organic cultivation is that a lot of food (and a lot of variety) can be crammed in a small space.
I also talk to 'commercial' organic growers - that is, people who make their living selling their produce - and they don't consume huge tracts of land and indeed are very conscious of their effect on land. They tend to concentrate food in polytunnels and use proper crop rotation.
Having said that, the really 'commercial' organic farmers - those producing stuff for Trashco, Unsafeways and the likes - do consume huge amounts of land and have less concern about their long term effects. They also are more likely to consume massive amounts of fossil fuels via mechanised farming.
These agri-businesses might be important for the general economy but remember, it's nice to be important but much more important to be nice.
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Re: 10 reasons to go organic (or not?)
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Re: 10 reasons to go organic (or not?)
Thought this article was interesting, compare the sources for organic and inorganic fertilisers.
Understanding Fertilisers
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The main fertilisers you will come across are principally used to supply plant foods as follows and I have classified them into the various types.
Straight fertilisers
Inorganic
Fertiliser contains approximately
Sulphate of Ammonia 23% N
Sulphate of Potash 48% K
Superphosphate of Lime 18% P
Basic Slag 10-20% P
Urea 46% N
Extran (ammonium nitrate) 35% N
Nitro Chalk 16% N
Nitrate of Soda 16% N
Organic
Fertiliser contains approximately
Bone meal 20% N
Dried Blood 12% N
Hoof and Horn 13% N
Compound fertilisers
Inorganic
Nitrate of Potash - contains approximately 13% N, 45% K
Organic
Fish Meal - contains approximately 6-10% N, 6-12% K
General or balanced fertilisers
These are mostly proprietary products
Inorganic, powdered or granular fertilizers.
Growmore. Equal parts N,P,K. Mainly for incorporating in the soil before planting.
Rose fertilisers. Higher in potash than Growmore. Suitable for all flowering shrubs as well as roses.
Spring and summer lawn fertilisers. High in nitrogen to promote quick growth.
Autumn lawn fertilisers. Low in nitrogen, higher in phosphate (to strengthen roots) and potash.
John Innes base. Mainly for making compost to the John Innes formula. Add 4 oz per bushel (8 gal.) for J.I. No. 1.
Q4 base. Also for making potting compost. Rather expensive for use outside in the garden. Q4 HN is the same but higher in N.
Chempak base fertilisers. Mainly for making soil-less composts for seeds and cuttings or potting
Inorganic liquid feeds or soluble crystals
Chempack liquid fertilisers. Soluble crystals for applying with watering can. There are several different formulations for different purposes.
Phostrogen. Soluble fertiliser high in potash. Good for flowers and fruiting plants like tomatoes.
Miracle Grow. One of several new products ont he market. They are liquid fertilisers for general use.
Organic, solid fertilisers
Fish, blood and bone. For raking into ground before planting. High in potash by the standards of organic fertilisers, so, good for flower beds.
Calcified Seaweed. Similar to fish, blood and bone.
Organic Liquid fertilisers
Maxicrop. Made from seaweed extract. For general use on established plants.
Maxicrop tomato. Formulated for tomatoes, but good for any flowering or fruiting crop.
Baby Bio. Similar to Maxicrop, but mainly for house plants
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Re: 10 reasons to go organic (or not?)
Mind you, Risker, that is primarily about gardening isn't it, rather than agriculture? When I had that exchange with the Vegan Organic Network people a while back they reckoned that commercial farmers didn't use the blood, bone etc much because they were too expensive. I hope no one minds but I think I will copy my post from that other thread to save reinventing the wheel. The first para is what I wrote and the bit in bold is what they wrote:
I have had a more detailed response on the question of whether it's better to buy organic or non-organic stuff if you can't get or grow stockfree. It is not from the Vegan Organic Network itself but from a horticultural consultant they work with. (ETA that in asking the question I had already made the point I personally thought that organic might be preferable because of the reduced use of pesticides, which obviously kill animals.)
I don't think there is an answer but I agree with "I think I'd go for the organic" on principle. Some points for the argument: -
• Slaughterhouse products contribute very little to the plant nutrient input of either organic or non-organic growers on a commercial scale. They are used to provide balanced slow-release nutrients in some growing media used in propagation. They tend to be too expensive to use on a large scale. They tend to be used more by gardeners.
• Both organic and non-organic farmers use animal wastes (manures) for soil fertility building and grazing as a techniques for managing swards and returning nutrients to the soil.
• Organic growers are required to minimise the amount of nutrient brought in from other sources (it is not good farming to rob nutrient from one farm to support growing on another)
• Stockfree organic growers will avoid the use of all animal based fertility (Slaughterhouse products and manures) and will seek to maintain fertility through the use of green manures. Many organic growers, even though not certified Stockfree, do not keep livestock and do not have access to farmyard manures. They too rely on green manures and home made composts (with some green wastes). Many non-organic growers don't use animal products either - they use artificial fertilizers instead.
Two more points to consider.
• It is probably more important that you can find locally grown food both to reduce food-miles and to support local growers.
• And you will note I will not use the term "conventional" to refer to non-organic farmers. It implies that organic is not conventional. My argument is that we were organic before farmers used fertilizers and pesticides!
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Re: 10 reasons to go organic (or not?)
BTW stating the obvious here but vegan-organic gardeners grow veg without the use of animal products, as well.
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Re: 10 reasons to go organic (or not?)
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harpy
It is not from the Vegan Organic Network itself but from a horticultural consultant they work with.
Presumably in order to be "working with" them they must have an interest in the subject and therefore aren't likely to be a neutral source.
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Re: 10 reasons to go organic (or not?)
They are certainly pro-stock-free-organic but I'm not sure if they (collectively) have as much of a pro-organic-in-general bias as ISTR they were a bit non-committal when I first asked the question. Fair point though.
Is there a stock-free non-organic association I wonder? If so we could ask them as well to get a balance :-)
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Re: 10 reasons to go organic (or not?)
I've fired off a load of emails to companies that do organic veg box schemes, hopefully they'll be able to shed some light on it.
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Re: 10 reasons to go organic (or not?)
Asking them about what fertilisers their growers use? That might be interesting, if they know.
I scoured the Defra website a while ago but couldn't find anything about who uses what fertilisers etc. You'd think they'd have something about it.
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Re: 10 reasons to go organic (or not?)
Yeah, a couple of them are both the growers and suppliers. They all seem to be very transparent about their products and happy to answer questions so hopefully I'll get at least one response.