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Re: PETA starting a porn site!?!
Maggie you are really now using this forum as a personal attack area on an industry that you do not know enough about. In some countries and cases, yes it is still a source of exploitation, as is true for many things. BUT the mainstream pornography, no matter what the origin of the word is, is heavily regulated and the people involved have much more say. I am sure there were mistakes made in the past but that is true for a lot of things. I think it is a good idea to let this go now and I hope you do, before enemies are made unnecessarily.
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Re: PETA starting a porn site!?!
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Re: PETA starting a porn site!?!
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sandra
In my humble opinion..........animal abuse is wrong and pornography is wrong.
Both are definitely not for me.
lv
Edit: Now leaving the thread as the idea of porn bores the pants off me.:eek:
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Re: PETA starting a porn site!?!
Quote:
CoolCat
There is exploitation in any industry, but we don't stop wearing shoes all together because a 6yr old chinese girl is making some of them. Why should porn be treated any different than the other industries.
How is using your body slaving away working in steel, on a production line, or even sitting at a desk for 8h straight any different than using your body for porn? Are boobs and genetalia really that more special? Sure there are health risks, so is there in wrecking your back carrying heavy loads, or your lungs getting filled with dust or toxins. Health hazards has to be addressed in any industry. We started to wear clothes to protect ourselfs from the environment and now we have this weird mental state that taking them off is wrong, dirty or obscene.
How is porn producers making tons of money different than a factory owner making tons of money. If porn actors are underpaid that is no different than factory workers getting underpaid. Most employees will run into the "you have no experience" as well followed by the "we could get younger people for cheaper" when they ask a raise later on.
When National Geography Channel shows lions or some other non-human animal doing it on camera, they get an award for best nature film or something. When human animals are doing it on camera they are perverted, exploited, pimped,... . What's with this double standard. Those lions weren't even asked consent. I don't think they are really bothered by it though since they were just doing it in plain sight. Like most if not all non-humans animals. It seems that we are the only ones making a big deal out of it. We can't even breastfeed in public without turning heads and people getting outraged. WTF is wrong with us. Where did we derail like this?
If we would live in a warmer climate, and run arround naked like some native tribes do/did, and just do it in front of our kids, peers and elderly without shame nobody would think about pointing a camera at it to make money. Maybe some National Geography Channel reporter would to get another price for his outstanding documentary, but most people would consider watching that boring.
I don't know what PeTA is up to or how they would link animal rights with porn. If they do porn with
furries it could be good for some laughs at the wierdness of it hehe.
Love this post. I agree with you 100%.
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Re: PETA starting a porn site!?!
Quote:
CoolCat
There is exploitation in any industry, but we don't stop wearing shoes all together because a 6yr old chinese girl is making some of them. Why should porn be treated any different than the other industries.
Many will see it the other way round: since many people boycott animal products for ethical reasons, go for 'fair trade' products for ethical reasons, boycott companies which are known to cause massive damage on the environment - why should products produced by 6 years old Chinese girls be an exception? Two wrongs doesn't make a right. If all the unethical activities in the world world should serve as an excuse or alibi to keep even more unethical activities happening, how relevant doesn't that make veganism, as in "Why not exploit animals when humans are being exploited?" But there are people who have publicly said that they don't mind work in the porn industry, and that they are not exploited.
I still think porn as such and Peta's stunt here needs to be seen as two different topics. It's also important to differentiate between 'naked' and porn. Peta doesn't launch a nudist site. And I don't think the 6-year old chinese girl reference holds water, because Peta (due to the E in pEta, for 'ethical') most likely wouldn't let 6 year old chinese girls work for them - and at the same time publish it as their next big stunt.
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How is using your body slaving away working in steel, on a production line, or even sitting at a desk for 8h straight any different than using your body for porn?
Not that "different' as such would be an argument pro/con anything... but many people will answer your question by saying that porn is different than most other work / and that pornification of sex not necessarily is a good idea. Most people will also say that having sex is very different than working in a steel factory (because it often involves love, ecstasy, being very open emotionally and so on). Some will also say that once a 18 year old can be seen in a porn setting, the likelihood that she may be 'objectified' in her private life - or even raped - will increase as well.
Ask any random person sitting at a desk if she is OK with you watching her in a sexual setting... if the answer usually doesn't end up with 'sure, that's no different than any other job', the answer from these people is that 'having sex (even with one self) is different than other "work"'.
Try this: ask any person two questions: first, if s/he can show you her hand. Then, ask her to take off her panties. If the answer is yes to the first one and no to the second, genitalia is different (for that person. It is for most people). And I'm saying this as one who does not support the idea that nudity or sex shall be made into something perverted or taboo. Nakedness and sex is natural, but that doesn't mean that an activist organization launching aporn site is a good idea - or that "porn is sex".
But again: I'm not discussing that "If A wants to show B her genitals for money, she should be put in prison or behaves unethically". If a bunch of activists want to start a porn site, nothing can stop them anyway - and maybe they even would take some traffic from sites which don't have the word ethical in their vocabulary at all: this thread is about whether it's a good idea that the largest pro-vegan group on the planet shall be the group which starts such a site. I'm pretty sure that if my son prints out a Peta link and brings it to school, and want the class or his teacher to check that site out, this will be more difficult in the future if it contains link to Peta's porn sites, or if Peta will become known as that weird AR group which also runs a porn site.
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We started to wear clothes to protect ourselfs from the environment and now we have this weird mental state that taking them off is wrong, dirty or obscene.
Good point, but again - it isn't a nudist site they are planning.
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When National Geography Channel shows lions or some other non-human animal doing it on camera, they get an award for best nature film or something. When human animals are doing it on camera they are perverted, exploited, pimped,... . What's with this double standard. Those lions weren't even asked consent.
If someone would film a couple having sex on a beach and send it on TV without asking permission, it would be very different from sending a documentary about lions. For various reasons, I don't think the lion example is relevant in this context. The same goes for the taboofication of breastfeeding.
Same people criticized The Vegan Society, in a thread here on VF, for not standing up against GM. They were against the massive spread of genetically modified products, and therefore wanted VS to campaign against it as well. Although I'm very critical against GM, I don't think it's Vegan Society's business to start campaigning for other stuff than veganism. And in the same way, I don't think it wold be good if they (or Peta) would start a porn site. It doesn't really matter if many vegans would be OK with nudity, it has nothing to do with lions or breastfeeding - it's just that it will push a lot of people away from their message for the wrong reasons . Vegans being a very small minority (one or two percent of the population?), there's plenty of stuff that pushes others away from the idea of being vegan anyway - what we do is already seen as very 'special' (maybe even 'extreme') by many people.
Since the greatest way to influence as many as possible, which would be essential for any activist, I guess (otherwise she wouldn't be active, I guess?) is to influence "influencers" (teachers, governments, writers, media etc), I think the animal rights movement has to continuously keep having reality checks. And reality tells us that being associated with porn may not be a smart move if you want others/"influencers" to take you seriously.
There's no reason to convert the vegan or AR organizations into some hippie movement which promotes free sex, nudism, ethical porn, legalizing of marihuana, free public transport, allowing 15 year olds to vote, banning of all non-organic food, free meditation training and anarchist literature for all kids and - and so on.
People who want to promote all that should just do it - but not hijack the organizations they are members of; organizations dedicated to a specific cause, and have them all promote everything else they think is great.
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Re: PETA starting a porn site!?!
Get the juxtaposition by now? I'm going to credit PETA with some intelligence. Seems they are in a 'legitimate' position to apply mental torque with their proposals.
There are clear paralells between animal exploitaion and human exploitation. The existence of sexual motivation, and the existence of hunger need not lead to either rape, nor to the predation of living animals.
Sex is sex. Sure enough, porn is as much prostitution as marriage is [let us not get hung up on the money, eh?]. Humans use whatever they can identify... love it, hate it , recognise it. No need to conflate sex with other human needs [except perhaps childcare].
Possibly the reasons that so many people find sex so difficult [shocking] to talk about in rational ways are the same reasons that so many people fail to engage lucidly with issues of animal abuse?
Also "AR", and possibly veganism could easily be worse for one's career prospects than photographic evidence that one has had sex! There are many many mainstream jobs from which I am barred due to my understanding that the management are evil flesh eating conspiratorial incarcerators of mammals.
I'm all for integration of opinion and ideas in discussion. Persistently asserting that two or more factors are one and the same thing, when those things have been successfully separated in context, is not so elegant.
Edit: I think I was being too diplomatic; I might replace "childcare" with "reproduction".
That sentence should clearly not be taken out of context.
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Re: PETA starting a porn site!?!
Quote:
AzureAngel
Maggie you are really now using this forum as a personal attack area on an industry that you do not know enough about. In some countries and cases, yes it is still a source of exploitation, as is true for many things. BUT the mainstream pornography, no matter what the origin of the word is, is heavily regulated and the people involved have much more say. I am sure there were mistakes made in the past but that is true for a lot of things. I think it is a good idea to let this go now and I hope you do, before enemies are made unnecessarily.
I agree entirely with MaggieLassie and I don't believe she is saying anything that should make her 'enemies' this is only a discussion afterall. I also happen to believe she knows what she is talking about and therefore her opinions are valid.
The bottom line is that pornography and Peta's use of it is very distasteful. Whether people are being exploited or not, we should not be viewing pornography as a worthwhile activity. Would we all like to be viewed in other aspects of doing 'natural' things like going to the toilet? Why not? Just like having sex this is also a 'natural' function.
Wanting to take part in pornography, either directly or by viewing it is tant amount to perversion in my opinion. Notice, I said 'MY OPINION' so please don't make an enemy of me. :)
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leedsveg
Both are definitely not for me.
lv
Edit: Now leaving the thread as the idea of porn bores the pants off me.:eek:
Ha ha! It bores me too Leedsveg. Plus, I feel if people have to resort to pornography to help them in their sex life they must be doing something wrong. :)
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Re: PETA starting a porn site!?!
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sandra
I agree entirely with MaggieLassie and I don't believe she is saying anything that should make her 'enemies' this is only a discussion afterall.
I'm not sure I agree 100% with MaggieLassie, but I feel she is perfectly entitled to express her opinions, regardless of whether she has first-hand experience of the industry.
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Korn
being associated with porn may not be a smart move if you want others/"influencers" to take you seriously.
I do agree with this ETA though I'm not sure "porn" is the right word for the type of material I've seen Peta use in the past.
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Re: PETA starting a porn site!?!
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Korn
... (truncated)
Korn I see you put a lot of effort in your reply to my post and I appreciate that. My rant was more "how it could be" whilst you approached it from the "how things are now" angle. I agree if you query people you will get the responses you anticipate. Plenty of people seem to be lacking the ability to think outside the box, or even envision that there is no box.
Normalizing porn, nudity, breastfeeding... is indeed different than PeTA starting a porn site in the real world but I don't want to restrict myself to a world I don't agree with. If we would have a bit more common sense instead of being all so damn hypocrite, faking outrage and going "oh my god" at things simultaneous because we think it is expected of us and we want to keep appearances up and not risking standing out in the herd we would be moving forward a lot faster as a species. Or maybe I'm just the odd one out that isn't adapted :p
About the shoes:
I think you misinterpreted what I said. I didn't promote that using shoes from child labour is ok or acceptable at all. Or that the existince of unethical (child labour, animal parts,...) shoes is any justification for unethical (insert all the reasons,..) porn. But just like we don't stop wearing shoes all together because of it we shouldn't dismiss all porn. If the porn industry has more issues currently than other industries than normalization might reduce them to the level of that of the other industries. Being weird about porn hasn't worked so far.
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Re: PETA starting a porn site!?!
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CoolCat
If we would have a bit more common sense instead of being all so damn hypocrite, faking outrage and going "oh my god" at things simultaneous because we think it is expected of us and we want to keep appearances up and not risking standing out in the herd we would be moving forward a lot faster as a species. Or maybe I'm just the odd one out that isn't adapted :p
I would just like to make it clear that none of what you said above applies to me, with regard to my attitudes to pornography. Not that I am suggesting you were trying to imply that of course. :)
I do feel however that just because someone objects to pornography it isn't in order to 'keep up appearances'. :)
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Re: PETA starting a porn site!?!
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sandra
Whether people are being exploited or not, we should not be viewing pornography as a worthwhile activity. Would we all like to be viewed in other aspects of doing 'natural' things like going to the toilet? Why not? Just like having sex this is also a 'natural' function.
It's not my thing, but some people seem to be into toilet stuff. But that's not what I wanted to say. I like to comment on the use of "all" here. I'm sure not all of us like to be viewed on the toilet or in porn, but why not leave it a choice? If nobody is forced in viewing or being viewed poop away or whatever I would say.
As for worthwhile activity...
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sandra
Plus, I feel if people have to resort to pornography to help them in their sex life they must be doing something wrong. :)
That is a rather mean statement. Plenty of people out there are deemed too ugly/weird/undesirable/... by society for anyone wanting to give them a sex life. I'm sure porn serves a purpose in society. If you would take porn out of the equation how would you insure that everyone has a good sex life instead? Or would you favour prostitution to porn? What with the people that can't afford prostitutes? How can we be sure that the rape numbers wouldn't go up instead?
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Re: PETA starting a porn site!?!
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sandra
I would just like to make it clear that none of what you said above applies to me, with regard to my attitudes to pornography. Not that I am suggesting you were trying to imply that of course. :)
I do feel however that just because someone objects to pornography it isn't in order to 'keep up appearances'. :)
I wasn't with that post, I was however writing a comment to your post :)
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Re: PETA starting a porn site!?!
Not to mention there are plenty of couples that watch porn together....it doesn't mean that you have a crumby sex life. Everyone likes different things you know? there isn't anything wrong with it if no one is being hurt. You don't have to watch porn or be involved with it if you don't like it. :)
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Re: PETA starting a porn site!?!
I hate that old chestnut, that the numbers of rapes would increase if there was no pornography...............that's just a way of letting men of the hook. The fact is that men should be in control of themselves and not attack women for sex. :(
Nothing you can say on this subject is going to change my mind, I view pornography as something nasty and distasteful and exploitive. I'm not expecting to change your minds either so I will leave this thread now as I find this discussion very depressing. Good luck everyone. :)
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Re: PETA starting a porn site!?!
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Re: PETA starting a porn site!?!
Quote:
sandra
I hate that old chestnut, that the numbers of rapes would increase if there was no pornography...............that's just a way of letting men of the hook. The fact is that men should be in control of themselves and not attack women for sex. :(
The number of men raping women is just as high as the other way around in some countries. In fact one in particular, which I will not name because I love it, the balance of domestic violence and sexual abuse is tipped more towards male abuse. I really don't like that generalization that only women get raped...
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missbettie
Not to mention there are plenty of couples that watch porn together....it doesn't mean that you have a crumby sex life. Everyone likes different things you know? there isn't anything wrong with it if no one is being hurt. You don't have to watch porn or be involved with it if you don't like it. :)
I agree and thank you for saying that as I am sure if a guy would say it less people would care...
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Re: PETA starting a porn site!?!
People controlling themselfs, that will happen any day soon :rolleyes:
Society is totally artifical, and when something happens to upset that everything is out the window. We've seen that with the riots in London and what happened at the Superdome after Hurricane Katrina, to name just a few. True nature of humans shows when social boundaries and consequences are no longer in place, and it isn't pretty. But it is probably more honest than everyone keeping their pinky up when having a cup of tea.
But this is a bit off topic.
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Re: PETA starting a porn site!?!
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AzureAngel
I agree and thank you for saying that as I am sure if a guy would say it less people would care...
No problem. :)
I actually don't do that, and i'm not really fond of porn, and I would prefer it if my SO didn't indulge in it (and he doesn't as far as i'm aware), but if someone likes it, its no skin off my teeth. Nothin wrong with it. :) as long as people are happy.
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Re: PETA starting a porn site!?!
Quote:
AzureAngel
The number of men raping women is just as high as the other way around in some countries. In fact one in particular, which I will not name because I love it, the balance of domestic violence and sexual abuse is tipped more towards male abuse. I really don't like that generalization that only women get raped...
In this country rape is legally defined as the act of penetrating someone against their will. We had a 43yr old woman aquitted for raping a 23yr old mentally disabled man with the mental age of a 7 year old because of it. She didn't penetrate him, so the courts ruled it wasn't rape.
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Re: PETA starting a porn site!?!
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Re: PETA starting a porn site!?!
I frankly do not care how it is classified legally (in my opinion), it is the act of forcing sex on someone when they do not consent to it and it should not be so blindly attached to pure penetrative sex either. I am fully aware that there are cases where women have gotten away from it being classified as rape due to legal loopholes. At least those are publicized. The ones that bother me are the ones where the men are too scared to come forward because they will be seen as less of a man. Here it is a BIG deal sadly.
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Re: PETA starting a porn site!?!
Quote:
hedge
Can we please remember that different strokes for different folks. What works for one couple/person might not work for another couple/person.
We are made up of a wonderful myriad of likes and dislikes.
Your thang might not be the same as my thang.
:)
Does this attitude apply to the killing and eating of animals too Hedge? If something is wrong we should speak out against it should we not and I happen to think pornography is wrong. :)
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AzureAngel
The number of men raping women is just as high as the other way around in some countries. In fact one in particular, which I will not name because I love it, the balance of domestic violence and sexual abuse is tipped more towards male abuse. I really don't like that generalization that only women get raped...
Now, if we are being serious here the majority of rapes are men against women. Yes, it does happen the other way round but in 90% + of cases it's men raping women. :(
Coolcat - yes people should 'control' themselves - it doesn't take much effort, or it shouldn't if we are talking about civilized human beings here. :)
p.s. I'm definitely out of here now, I didn't unsubscribe to this thread so saw the new posts this morning. I'll go now and as I won't see anymore posts I won't be back. Once again good luck everyone. :)
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Re: PETA starting a porn site!?!
Quote:
sandra
Now, if we are being serious here the majority of rapes are men against women. Yes, it does happen the other way round but in 90% + of cases it's men raping women. :(
Sorry Sandra, but you are only talking about reported and convicted rape cases. There are far more men being subjected to this unfortunate event than what you are obviously willing to admit to.
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Re: PETA starting a porn site!?!
I know that spousal abuse is unfortunately very common, and that includes a lot of women abusing men. But I didn't know that women raping men was that common.
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Re: PETA starting a porn site!?!
i think generally its not as common as women rape cases, but it does happen and it is something that is very rarely addressed. and generally speaking i think its more emotional abuse more than physically forcing, which is IMO almost worse. And the men that it does happen with, very rarely speak out. What are you going to say? most people just assume men are sex crazed lunitics, (and in my experience they are :p) but you never really know what happens in someones bedroom....most people assume you can't rape a man because they "always" want sex. And this isn't true in a lot of cases.
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Re: PETA starting a porn site!?!
Porn is not rape.
Porn is recorded light rays reflected from people having sex.
How the sex is arranged is not pornography.
Looking at porn is like having sex with one's eyes open, or imagining sex, or noticing that someone was copulating.
I, for one, would rather have been talking about what PETA are trying to do, or how their plan might be improved.
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Re: PETA starting a porn site!?!
I think that we all went off on tangents. I don't think anyone really thinks of porn as rape... Well I don't...
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Re: PETA starting a porn site!?!
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missbettie
What are you going to say? most people just assume men are sex crazed lunatics, ...most people assume you can't rape a man because they "always" want sex. And this isn't true in a lot of cases.
Thank you very much for saying this.
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Re: PETA starting a porn site!?!
Go ahead, Whalespace, tell us about your experiences in AR campaigning. Tell us how how Peta could do media better. Better still, head over to Virginia and get stuck in.
I'm being less ironic than you imagine :-)
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Re: PETA starting a porn site!?!
Quote:
missbettie
I think that we all went off on tangents. I don't think anyone really thinks of porn as rape... Well I don't...
Agreed, I don't think porn is rape (unless of course it's actually a rape that's being filmed). The idea of pornography isn't offensive to me, but I can understand why people could take issue with certain aspects of how the industry operates, or the effect it could have on how people view women or sex. I don't really know enough about it to have an informed opinion though.
It's so easy for a thread to end up going off-topic though, especially when it's about a touchy subject like this.
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Re: PETA starting a porn site!?!
Quote:
pat sommer
Go ahead, Whalespace, tell us about your experiences in AR campaigning. Tell us how how Peta could do media better. Better still, head over to Virginia and get stuck in.
I'm being less ironic than you imagine :-)
Fair comment.
I don't want to write an essay because I think the relevant points can be distributed [by all] through a discussion in a conversational way...
I just checked if sex was a crime in Virginia, so I've had a refresher in the realm of obscenity. I also took a look at PeTA's site, which was some news about army testing gas on monkeys for me.
I recognise the opinions posted above hint at some of the responses which will be encountered with respect to pornography.
I'm sure that the "porn" idea has already grabbed a lot of attention...even that of folks in animal welfare movements whom consider PeTA's nakedness too distracting. *Extra points PeTA.*
With the easy move made, PeTA should now produce some intelligent concept structure which can provide mental functions suited to resolving public denial of complicity in animal abuse.
Hopefully that last sentence makes perfect sense; However, I realise that not all people exercise their verbal capacities to extents non necessary to their daily requirements. Thank goodness for other means of idea conveyance [theatre and moving pictures].
On to suggestions.
I already suggested a common cause to willful ignorance of animal suffering, and some people's insistence that [human] sexual arousal should not be depicted in any way [at least in any way which counters one's interests]. That could be developed within various schemas.
Animal porn is a distinct possibility. Maybe "serving" procedures in factory farms. Artificial insemination would certainly be an eye opener to some... see the "special gun" in action [quoted from 'official' UK AI website]; Very relevant in the dairy industry.
Obviously a lot of such farm porn will be depicting the rape and sexual abuse of animals [and the corporate abuse of the practitioners, incidentally]. This issue qualifies for inclusion in a debate about the depiction of 'prisoners' which future animal rights campaigners might need to deal with.
Alternatively a conditional strip tease could be constructed such that successfully answering questions of morality [relating to animal welfare] are rewarded by the removal of vegetables from strategic places. A facility could easily be included whereby people could replace images of vegetables in strategic places upon successfully answering the very same questions of morality... thereby including an 'opinion poll' element. Egos of models possibly notwithstanding.
Any other ideas to help PeTA into a different position?
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Re: PETA starting a porn site!?!
What other organizations have more recognition in the AR world? Peta is the only one that most people know, so they must be doing something right. I'm not saying that they are the best organization on the planet, or that they don't make mistakes, but most people do not giving a flying f*** about animals, at least Peta is doing something to get put in the news that the majority of people watch.
the shock tactic, gets results unfortunately.
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Re: PETA starting a porn site!?!
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What other organizations have more recognition in the AR world? Peta is the only one that most people know, so they must be doing something right.
Not necessarily. The may simply be big because there haven't been any other alternatives (and as far as I know, there still aren't any).
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the shock tactic, gets results unfortunately.
If most of PETA's own members aren't even vegans, how can we expect that those who hear about PETA's stunts in media will stop using animal products?
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Re: PETA starting a porn site!?!
But aren't there smaller AR groups? I honestly don't know of any, but i thought that a few people on here belonged to others? Can anyone name any?
some of Peta's members aren't even vegetarian if I'm thinking correctly....But they are shining light on some of the issues that we are all fighting for. Ya in an ideal world, everyone would be Vegan....but until that happens, I think organizations like Peta are a good thing, because they are alerting the normal public about things going on in the world around them that are wrong.
I'm not saying they are using the best tactics, but now for the most part the majority of at least where I am, know even just a little bit, and with out organizations like Peta do you think they would be even semi aware?
Peta does sometimes get on my nerves, but I honestly can't think of a better way of doing things...I do wish they would promote veganism more....and correctly....
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Re: PETA starting a porn site!?!
Quote:
missbettie
But aren't there smaller AR groups?
Yes, but they are... smaller! :) Peta is quite eager at marketing - not necessarily good marketing, but all kind of stunts which makes sure they are mentioned in press. This gives them followers - but these followers may not live any different than those Peta try to address: people who buy meat, fur, leather etc.
IMHO, the vegan concept has much more impact on animals' lives than organizations which save 21 chicken one place and 43 animals somewhere else, because every single person who go vegan save a lot more lives than many of this AR stunts often do - summed.
There are also many examples in history showing that something grows big, well-known, and popular - but without being the best solution. One often mention example is that VHS won the old video format war, but that the Betacam format was the best format. The many examples of scary political movements (eg. nazism) becoming very popular for a while also show that one doesn't have to 'do something right to become big.
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some of Peta's members aren't even vegetarian if I'm thinking correctly....But they are shining light on some of the issues that we are all fighting for.
True - but the'll often get the same reaction we environmental activists blocking industries which pollute the air while smoking 40 cigarettes a day. We just can't compare Peta with a situation where Peta wouldn't exist.
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I think organizations like Peta are a good thing, because they are alerting the normal public about things going on in the world around them that are wrong.
While there have been very unserious, misleading and damaging critique against veganism in media all over the world based on single stories where the 'facts' have been plain wrong , Peta have been busy running competitions about who the most sexy vegetarian is etc - without doing anything to influence media or provide scientific - or at least true - info about the healthiness of not consuming animal products.
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with out organizations like Peta do you think they would be even semi aware?
They would be a lot more aware with a good organizarion -without all the Peta nonsense and a good sense of marketing. Peta has been 'branding' the term vegetarian for many years, nt 'vegan' (even if they are pro vegan), so many people still don't even know what vegan means. They often focus on stunts on non-essential topics, like the one this month where they got press world wide for having suggested that all Mars missions should be vegan.
No healthy person *wants* to kill/harm animals. THey keep consuming all this meat etc for a few important reasons:
• they think they need animal products for health
• they assume that we a re 'meant to' eat meat instead of a plant based diet
• they assume that vegan food is less tasty than the food they usually eat.
Peta could have addressed all these things massively for years, instead of these silly 'most sxy' campaigns. LOTS of people would like to move towards a vegan lifestyle, they just don't now where to start. They won't start be reading about vegan food on Mars missions or go vegan because some Peta members is taking of her clothes when giving a speech about animal rights. Most likely, they'll remember what she looked like naked, but due to focus on her strip show instead of the speech, they'll miss what she actually talked about. I don't think there are any examples in history of such a large organization have done so much... silly.
The womens' rights movement has made progress since the 70s, people are a lot more aware of environmental issues, USA have got i's first black president and dictators all of over the world are falling. I'm sure veganism would have been a lot more widespread if the resources and members Peta has attracted wold have been spent more wisely. Unfortunately I don't think it will happen for a number of reasons - eg. Peta being in bed with Ingrid Newkirk: http://www.peta.org/features/Ingrid-...ique-Will.aspx
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Re: PETA starting a porn site!?!
Back to where we started... why should Peta do anything differently? Maybe they ought to; how do I know?
From my limited vantage point from behind the Great Firewall, years away from my AR heyday, my would-be opinions are no more than assumptions.
Whalespace, could you translate, please, "intelligent concept structure which can provide mental functions suited to resolving public denial of complicity in animal abuse", into plain English? Do you mean that they make a T-shirt with a picture of a ham sandwich made up of factory-farm gore?
See, I like concrete over cerebral.
Miss Bettie, give up trying to argue against Korn's idealized AR group: reality can never improve upon fantasy. Comparison to an ought-to-be is unfalsifiable; we lose.
And remember his "I'm sure..." carries the weight of years of waiting for a better world. Settle for those actually shaking up this world? Too easy.
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Re: PETA starting a porn site!?!
Quote:
pat sommer
And remember his "I'm sure..." carries the weight of years of waiting for a better world.
I'm sure you wouldn't accuse Korn of just waiting, Pat. He's expended a lot of effort on this site over several years, and while it doesn't attract as much publicity as Peta I believe it gets quite a lot of hits (and people who come here do by and large get what they're expecting, a vegan forum).
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Re: PETA starting a porn site!?!
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pat sommer
Comparison to an ought-to-be is unfalsifiable; we lose.
Lots of the stuff we experience, every day, in every aspect of life, started with an idea of how things could be. An imagination of something better. An idealist, as such, is a person who is 'envisioning things in an ideal form', or 'pursuit of one's ideals'. Is idealism wrong?
I'm not waiting for anything. I do by little bit to change things I think need to be changed, and to suggest that one shall ignore people with other 'ideals'
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reality can never improve upon fantasy
I don't know what that means. Please elaborate? What I'm talking about is the opposite: that fantasy definitely can improve on reality, because that's how reality often starts; with an idea - or a different ideal. Idea and ideal are quite similar words, and change starts with imagining how things can be done differently - doesn't it?
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Comparison to an ought-to-be is unfalsifiable; we lose.
A lot of anti-racists, women lib activists, vegans, environmentalist, rebels in states run by dictators have probably heard similar statements for ages. But seriously: To say that we 'lose' if we compare how things are with how they ought to be; or compare our idealism with 'reality' is as counter-productive as it gets.
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his "I'm sure..." carries the weight of years of waiting for a better world
You need to explain that 'waiting' aspect, Pat. If I would NOT post suggestions about how PETA or the AR movement, or the vegan movement could improve, and sit home and moan about it, I could understand that you'd call it 'waiting'. But when I actively put energy into having things changed, run one of the major vegan forums etc - isn't that a lot closer to eg. 'activism' than 'waiting'?
And BTW... like you, I don't understand Whalespace's statement either. I generally think it's time for "Vegan 2.0", where we keep things simple, stop putting a lot of extras into veganism just because we want to, and give veganism a boost.
We actively need to demonstrate that the vegan concept is a lot more 'mainstream ready' than Peta gives the impression of. In a decade ot two, Peta's members will hopefully look at today's Peta with new eyes.
I have nothing against being 'extreme' as such. But I think eg. the fact that Ingrid Newkirk insists, on Peta's own pages, that when she dies, her "liver be vacuum-packed and shipped, in whole or in part, to France, to there be used in a public appeal to persuade shoppers not to support the vile practice of force-feeding geese and ducks for foie gras" etc shows that both Peta and Newkirk needs a reality check. First of all, that stunt supports tha idea some people obviously has - that going vegan is for 'extreme people... and also IMO overestimates the value Ingrid Newkirks bodyparts may have on the French population.
I've never met anyone who thinks veganism is 'idiotic' or similar, but I've heard, on several occasions, people (including many who agrees with her AR/vegan message) telling me those who run Peta are 'idiots'. In many ways they harm the vegan movement, and therefore reduces the growth of the vegan movement - and therefore harm animals - if we compare Peta with what Peta could have been.
But some people defend Peta - whatever they do.
Veganism certainly isn't a religion, but maybe Petaism is?
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Re: PETA starting a porn site!?!
Quote:
Korn
Ingrid Newkirk insists, on Peta's own pages, that when she dies, her "liver be vacuum-packed and shipped, in whole or in part, to France, to there be used in a public appeal to persuade shoppers not to support the vile practice of force-feeding geese and ducks for foie gras" etc shows that both Peta and Newkirk needs a reality check. First of all, that stunt supports tha idea some people obviously have -namely that going vegan is for 'extreme people...
And again: if Newkirk wants this kind of stuff in her will, so be it. But why does she insist on a contract with Peta about it, which shall be signed by Peta's Vice President?
This is the same question I ask about their porn site stunt, whatever that is about: If some Peta members want to start a porn site, why don't they just do that instead of insisting that it has to be done in Peta's name?
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Re: PETA starting a porn site!?!
I am waiting for a better world.
Swap the word out for hoping praying wishing longing... anything that fits you better :)
I still can't win the argument because there is no evidence you, Korn, or others that wag their finger, will accept that is less than the complete conversion of the whole world to veganism with signed affidavits that Peta was the cause. :lol2:
See what a trap it is? Purely logically realistically can we all agree that our opinions are mostly made of our life prejudices? Seriously, my myopic little view has waltzed me into a few dead-end alleys.
This is a great forum. This is the place to shout our beliefs and criticism and to debate. Hallelujah.
Just a smidgen less of Absolute Certainty of the Righteous Path can save one from an almighty bite-in-the-ass of viewpoint gone full circle.
Yup, I got teethmarks to hide too. :surprised_ani: