Milk to stay free for under-fives as David Cameron makes policy U-turn

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Coalition plans to remove free milk for the under-fives were summarily dropped by David Cameron today amid fears it would remind voters of the "Thatcher milk snatcher" episode of the 1970s.

Cameron moved so quickly that David Willetts, the higher education minister, was on live television defending the idea of removing free milk when the prime minister announced the U-turn, leaving broadcasters to tell Willetts of the change.

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Speaking before Downing Street rejected the proposal, Labour's shadow foreign secretary and party leadership contender David Miliband said the proposal would cause "real anger among parents, nurseries and milk providers".

He said: "This is one of the last remaining welfare schemes which allows children across the country to benefit from free, healthy milk.

"It is a universal benefit because every child needs to have milk in their diet.

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http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/20...cameron-policy

I just logged onto the forum to vent about this after reading this very article. what a load of bunkum. The government have done loads of stupid things since coming to power but this would have been one thing I'd have agreed with! Grrrr!

I've never really liked milk, but remember hating the free milk they used to give us at school. Now, milk brings back memories of kids throwing up from drinking milk that was never stored properly. Beyond gross.

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philfox

The government have done loads of stupid things since coming to power but this would have been one thing I'd have agreed with! Grrrr!

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And even then, had they gone ahead and abolished free milk, it wouldn't have been for reasons you or I would want. Were it soya milk, i'd imagine most here would advocate a free 'milk' scheme. I'd have considered this this u-turn a right decission over a year ago, and for good moral reasons. We should take heart I suppose that the electorate want to do the 'right thing' at least, and just concentrate on altering the position of ignorance that forms the context of an individual's decission making.

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Stuart

And even then, had they gone ahead and abolished free milk, it wouldn't have been for reasons you or I would want. Were it soya milk, i'd imagine most here would advocate a free 'milk' scheme.

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While I agree it wouldn't be for vegan reasons, I don't like to think of vegan taxes paying for dairy to be forced onto kids. I do understand your general argument, however surely children from less well off families would be better given fruit, perhaps smoothies or juices? I'm not sure I'm comfortable with this abuse in place and I think I would welcome any move to stop it. Though the raving leftie part of me thinks that state funded stuff is good, I can't be happy about allowing milk to be prioritised and given freely. Why milk?

I don't want this either, but am glad we've an electorate who'd rather - if not misguided about their choice - a state funded, free nutritional something. My only point is we have something good in this, and the fact that the public will has caused the govt. to back down (though it was probably always for the taking!) The challenge is to have change what the nutritional item is. Fruit is good for me too, but then this requires the general masses to think milk a bad thing, and this is our job as vegans to say why this is. We shouldn't be happy about this ignorance, but should be happy that within it, people have good socialistic intententions - this is all I say is good.

I don't think we disagree do we?

I'm amazed that David Milliband gave "anger among...milk providers" as a reason for not changing the system although I'm sure that probably is one of the reasons for the U-turn or whatever it was.

I think there is already some kind of free fruit scheme for small children so you'd think they could just find a way to extend that. Fruit wouldn't be a particularly good substitute for milk though if the main aim is to get calcium into them. Free green leafy vegetables would be better :D

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harpy

I'm amazed that David Milliband gave "anger among...milk providers" as a reason for not changing the system...

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Really!? Labour - or front bench - lost their socialist credentials long ago. This thinking alone should sound alarm bells as regards his candidature for new Labour leader.

From our *serious* vegan perspective it would probably be better to advocate soya milk as an alternative over veggies - soya milk has got all the good stuff kids need, right? :)

I would guess green vegetables would be a more viable option than soy milk from the point of view of general acceptability. Some people, rightly or wrongly, are worried about the implications of soya e.g. in terms of phytoestrogen content, whereas there isn't much controversy surrounding vegetables (that I'm aware of).

It's not because I think any of those involved are socialists that I am surprised they would trot out (so to speak) the argument about angering milk providers. It's because it's not a very strong argument for continuing a practice that they have decided is otherwise undesirable. Stopping people peddling drugs in playgrounds probably makes the peddlars angry too but I don't hear that being used as an argument for liberalisation :D

Am I right in believing that orange juice would be a better source of calcium?

I think it would have to be calcium-fortified orange juice, HotSquirrel. Even then there wouldn't be a one-to-one correspondence in terms of nutrients but then orange juice has things that milk doesn't as well as vice versa (I won't bother to try pointing out the general disadvantages of milk to an audience of vegans!).

Probably giving the parents food vouchers or something would be better than giving out a single food as I don't think there's one food that's a "magic bullet".

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harpy

I would guess green vegetables would be a more viable option than soy milk from the point of view of general acceptability. Some people, rightly or wrongly, are worried about the implications of soya e.g. in terms of phytoestrogen content, whereas there isn't much controversy surrounding vegetables (that I'm aware of).

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I suppose if we're to argue publicly against free milk from a vegan vantage point, then we have to accept that our view is not generally acceptable anyway, and that by conceding soy milk is negligible as a replacement would be to undermine our cause, even if, in actuality it is more responsible to promote orange juice or vegetables.

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harpy

It's not because I think any of those involved are socialists that I am surprised they would trot out (so to speak) the argument about angering milk providers. It's because it's not a very strong argument for continuing a practice that they have decided is otherwise undesirable. Stopping people peddling drugs in playgrounds probably makes the peddlars angry too but I don't hear that being used as an argument for liberalisation :D

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Oh, that; yeah, it's a rubbish line to take I agree.

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Stuart

I suppose if we're to argue publicly against free milk from a vegan vantage point, then we have to accept that our view is not generally acceptable anyway, and that by conceding soy milk is negligible as a replacement would be to undermine our cause, even if, in actuality it is more responsible to promote orange juice or vegetables.

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I'm not sure I understand exactly what you mean, but I don't see that it would help our argument to talk as if cow's milk is an essential element of the human diet and as such needs replacing (and by a food that some people, including some vegans, find to be of questionable value). Humans who are past infancy don't need any sort of milk in their diets.

To me the only value of the free milk programme is as an attempt (albeit a misguided one) to provide some extra nutrition to children who might otherwise have an inadequate diet. The logical step forward would be to help them get a more adequate diet, surely. A diet of junk food plus a bit of soy milk is likely to be just as bad for them as a diet of junk food and a bit of cow's milk (though obviously it would be preferable from other points of view).

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harpy

I'm not sure I understand exactly what you mean, but I don't see that it would help our argument to talk as if cow's milk is an essential element of the human diet and as such needs replacing (and by a food that some people, including some vegans, find to be of questionable value). Humans who are past infancy don't need any sort of milk in their diets.

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You're right, it was me thinking in 'like-for-like' terms that got me to that conclusion; quite wrong. However, I do feel that if we are to overturn a mindset that is stuck on seeing milk as being essential for growing children, then we might look inwards amongst our own (parent) community, and its own willingness to up give soy milk on the same terms. Thinking as you do, swaping out non-vegan foodstuffs on grounds of nutritional content, and not seeking out the obvious vegan counterpart in soy milk seems as logical to me too (though you got here first!), but, a consideration too is the reluctance at which soy and dairy milk is weaned out of a child's diet, because in our respective mindsets, omni and vegan parents are bedfellows, perhaps? As a matter of approach on this Tory u-turn do vegans argue for a non-soy milk alternative to milk and undermine the associative security that soy milk has to milk for respective and 'sold' vegans? I think this mental link is important.

(You might argue that i'm endowing others with my own temporal, shortsighted, stupidity - is this fair as an argument? To expect so little? Probably not. :) )

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harpy

To me the only value of the free milk programme is as an attempt (albeit a misguided one) to provide some extra nutrition to children who might otherwise have an inadequate diet. The logical step forward would be to help them get a more adequate diet, surely. A diet of junk food plus a bit of soy milk is likely to be just as bad for them as a diet of junk food and a bit of cow's milk (though obviously it would be preferable from other points of view).

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I do agree that schools have a responsibility to provide children with healthy, nutritious meals, and that means-tested assistance be given to those parents less able to afford school dinners. If unhealthy foods are to be an option, then this should be limited to one, or two days a week perhaps. Supplementing 'junk' with milk is pretty shortsighted, I agree, be it soy or dairy.

I'm not sure if many vegan parents do actually give their children soy milk to drink in significant quantities? Perhaps some of the parents here will comment on that. I would have thought the ideal was to breast-feed the child and then wean them on to a diet consisting mostly of foods that are minimally processed, such as vegetables, wholegrains, pulses etc. I'm sure soy milk is fine to have in moderation but personally I wouldn't treat it as a dietary staple for myself or anyone else.

BTW I was pleased - and rather surprised - to read this article arguing against school milk from a medical perspective in yesterday's Evening Standard.

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harpy

I'm not sure if many vegan parents do actually give their children soy milk to drink in significant quantities? Perhaps some of the parents here will comment on that.

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I would like to know the same thing.

Nice article; now for him to say all this on television.

Yes, I would quite like to see a TV debate between him and that Dairy Council person who commented on the article :devil:

Besides its wrong-ness, I don't even see her 'intellectual dominion' argument as being pertinent.

(I was wondering whether on of the commentators was one of our own - won't say who though :))

I am a vegan parent and i am breast feeding my 2 and a half year old and I will continue to do so (much to the displeasure of my mother!!) until she no longer wants to feed. My daughter has soya milk on her cereal in the morning but that is all she has. In the way of soya milk, not in the way of food! The rest of the day she has fruits, vegetables, dried fruit, wholemeal bread, grains/wholemeal pasta, pulses and occasionally tofu. I don't have her drinking an equivalent amount of soya milk to the sort of levels of cows milk that I had to drink as a child. btw she has two breast feeds a day but sometimes requests a third. Just by looking you can see she is bright, alert, active, healthy and of above average height for her age and obviously I feel she is of above average intelligence too :)