Eh??? I don't understand why I am involved in this? Is there anything I have missed?:eek: :(Quote:
tabitha
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Eh??? I don't understand why I am involved in this? Is there anything I have missed?:eek: :(Quote:
tabitha
I don't really completely like the article you linked to nor do I like what "Vegan Outreach" is saying (as the article mentioned them). I totally agree with some of the points made as I too dislike--as I've mentioned before on this very thread--people who are rabid and come across as morally superior, so attack others they see as "less" vegan. And although there are vegans who try to prove just how "vegan" they are and how "unvegan" others are, the label of "vegan" does need a definition that is understood as a general term. (After all, some "vegetarians" eat fish or chicken, which has "watered down" what that term means...do we really want to encourage that with the term vegan too?) That is not to say that I perfectly match the definition given by the founders of veganism, but it is to say that I strive to become as complete a vegan as I can and admit when I don't quite "measure up"...I know I'm far from perfect and don't try to claim moral superiority in my practice of veganism. However, I am proud to call myself a vegan and don't eschew the term just because I can't be "perfect." Doesn't anyone think it's dangerous to "water down" the definition of veganism:confused:
I think the point is that we don't need a word to define ourselves. We all do our best and we don't need a label to pigoen-hole ourselves, or give us a bunch of rules to live up to. We all are entitled to do what we are comfortable with. I prefer to say that I choose not to eat or use animal products, then calling myself a vegan, because I am not 'a vegan' I am me!
I totally agree that you don't have to use the term if you don't feel comfortable with it, I personally like the term "vegan"--even though I'm not "perfect":) I am also glad to discuss it with people who are interested--as many people have no idea what being vegan entails. What I object to is what Vegan Outreach (which is mentioned in the article) is doing, as they are trying to completely alter the definition of "vegan."
Part of the "gist" of the article that I really objected to is that the author seems to be saying, "the term 'vegan' is ruined because non-vegans think it means we're hateful nit-picking judgemental militants, so I won't call myself vegan anymore." Isn't that giving up to the extremists when we should be doing exactly the opposite? I would like to show non-vegans that there are vegans who try to live up to the vegan ideal, admit when we "miss the mark," and encourage compassion for all--without being judgemental or cruel...wouldn't that be better than giving up the term:confused:
[It just reminds me of what happened with the term feminist...the term feminist was made out to mean that you hate men and think women are superior. I personally consider myself a feminist in the true sense of the word--that men and women should be given EQUAL treatment, but I do NOT hate men and do not think that either sex is "superior"!]
Concerning the article about not wanting to be vegan, I agree with you, eclectic_one, and I think it is dangerous to water down the definition. No one is required to give up animal products, and no one is required to label themselves as anything if they don't want to. It is not really all that fair to those who have struggled and overcome desire for animal products, and make efforts every day to continue to read labels and question ingredients, for others to share the label without doing the work, anyway, so if some people don't want to call themselves vegan, that's a good thing. But blaming veganism for the desire not to be identified as one is silly, as is blaming veganism for the bad reputation it has amongst people who are not. I would bet that the majority of us did not choose veganism as a means of obtaining moral superiority over others, anyway, and it is very rude and disrespectful of people to characterize vegans in this way.Quote:
eclectic_one
As to vegans having cravings for animal "products", to me, there is a huge difference between a person who has uncontrollable cravings for animal "products" and truly needs help from others in living up to the ethics they have chosen to make their own, and someone who thinks that veganism embodies too many harsh, extreme rules that are impossible to follow, and therefore blames veganism for their own unwillingness to live by it. I dislike the suggestion in the article that veganism should be flexible. How flexible? To an omni, living as compassionately as possible may mean choosing to hunt for their own "meat", or choosing free range over battery eggs. If that's the best a person can do, maybe its better than nothing, but is it fair to suggest that they are making as great a difference in the lives and well-being of animals as a person who makes a daily effort to shun all animal "products"? Being vegan isn't a competition, but a line has been drawn for the sake of the definition of veganism, and its not flexible. None of us can be 100% vegan, but that doesn't mean we should lower vegan standards to suit some people's unwillingness to live up to them, or blame the "rules" for being too unrealistic and extreme when we fail to follow them as well as we might like to. Your way is better, eclectic_one, to admit that you can't always measure up, but to continue to strive anyway, and take the responsibility upon yourself when you fail, as we all do from time to time, rather than complain that veganism is too harsh and restrictive, or that vegans themselves are judgemental and intolerant.
To the folks who post here about their cravings, I have never felt that it is a moral weakness to suffer from a physical craving. Its good to be able to ask for help or advice when you are faced with difficulty. It is also good to allow people who do not suffer from cravings for animal "foods" anymore to post in here too, without the fear of being accused of indulging in judgementalism or putting others down in order to feel morally superior to them. We need a balance here to show the outside world, who visits this Vegan Forum every day, that though it may be hard in the beginning, it won't always be, that long-term vegans are not holier-than-thou by default just because they have been vegan for a while, and that people who are new to veganism and are struggling with different aspects of it can find help here without being judged for needing it. What I find unwelcome is any hint that when a person cannot or will not choose to live by vegan ethics, its because there is something wrong with vegan ethics. We who are vegan because we agree with how veganism is defined, and who want to identify ourselves as vegan, need to change the negative impressions other people have burdened us with, not abandon the "label" because its been slandered by others. We need to do this for the sake of animals, if not ourselves as well.
well put
i have little self control in my life but i feel so strongly about my "veganism" that i would be upset and highly disappointed if the people who have been a vegan way longer than me often gave way to some sad temptation. i can honestly say the worst thing i have done was to wear a sweater that was 25% wool - crap, my cat and dogs aren't vegan- i guess that is the worst thing. when i don't live with my ex husband ( he was so against it and i don't want to fight anymore) the dogs will be vegan, they love tofu (!!) and the cat will eat his prescription diet - because that is the only thing that has kept him from having another bladder infection.
that is my big slip, the dogs and cat:(
when i first came to the vf, i was seeking the truth. that is what i found. i ate cheerios like a maniac until someone posted a letter from post cereal that confirmed that they weren't vegan (contrary to the lame ass "i can't believe it's vegan" section of the peta website). now i just avoid anything with crazy preservatives- i have never felt better.
when reading intro posts, everyone is so helpful and supportive- i don't feel that anyone here is hurtful and that would be the only thing that could damage a potential vegan.
if for some sick reason i ate a cheese sandwich, i would want people to "yell" at me- not agree- because how is that vegan??
on the other hand, i do feel for people that can't control their impulses. i don't expect anyone to understand it, but i am a drunk, three days a
week. :)
Why would anyone join a vegan forum if they don't like the term vegan? It seems odd.
I love what the term vegan stands for and the philosophy behind it.
Vegan philosophy respects that we all strive to reach a certain point, but I don't think it matters if there are slip ups and I don't think anyone should judge anyone else too harshly. Even owning a computer and printer couldn't be considered vegan and we all seem to do that!
A lovely old guy who coined the term vegan, Donald Watson, died last year. He put lots of effort into vegan philosophy to make things easier for us, so we would be less confused. I think you either believe in it or not, at whatever level your at, if you don't feel you a vegan then it's simple, your a vegetarian or someone who doesn't eat meat. If we don't have terms to describe ourselves meat eaters will never get what we're on about. I don't believe this is 'labelling' in a derogatory way.
that is a lovely way of putting it
donald watson would be proud:)
When I think of the many terms that define what I am, I am not thrilled that I must share the label "human being" with bullies, bigots, murderers, etc., but I can't stop calling myself a human being, because that's what I am. I am not as annoyed about sharing the label "woman" with other women, but when it comes to sharing the label "vegan", I want to share it with folks who value being vegan as much as I do. It isn't so much that it should be exclusive of those who are not vegan, as inclusive of those who are, because to me being vegan is the most important aspect of being "me", as it is the best description of what I am, even though I do not match it completely either. The vegan lifestyle doesn't seem like a body of rigid rules that are designed to make me feel like a failure or a bad person if I don't follow them, they are guidelines to a joyful way to live in harmony with the world. I do not feel as confined by them as freed by them from continuing to make the cruel, uninformed choices I made before I became vegan. :)Quote:
treehugga
If I felt Veganism was about rules and limiting oneself, I wouldn't want to be a vegan. I don't follow any set rules, I eat what I enjoy and I do what I believe in.:) I think a label can be positive and serve as a guide for omnis who may want to know what we're about.
Mophoto, that is where I fall down the dog and cat thing. I dont buy my cat Iams,Science plan etc., at the moment. However, my cat has a history of bladder infections and if the vet prescribed Iams to ease his suffering what would I do. (just hope it doesnt happen). I have always been proud to use the term vegan, however, lately, especially with some of the comments on the "Capital Punishment" thread, I have been feeling as if Im doing something wrong:confused: Maybe Im just paranoid....
For the first few years of being vegan, I was very vigilant about finding every animal related product in everything. Then it became easy, I knew what to buy etc. Then I realised even more hidden stuff and realised that it was impossible and largely impractical to avoid everything. So I lightened up and just to the best I can on the day. My dog also ate meat, which I got my mother to buy. This tore me up inside. My dog has passed now.
If something says 'may contain traces of..." but otherwise looks fine, I buy it. I think this is for allergy purposes.
I will eat commercial bread if I'm in a tight spot and overlook the 471 or amylase which could be present.
I have slipped twice, with two between each choice. I believe this happened because I was sick/desperate. It was an egg product and only a mouthful. I'm sorry I did it but I needed to do it to know that it's not what I wanted. I learnt from the experience.
I don't tell people I'm vegan very often for the above reasons. Am I a vegan if I eat some bread with 471 or took a multivitamin with D3 after buying it by mistake? Maybe not. I also used shampoo/toothpaste when staying at a friend's house once and forgot to bring my own. I find things aren't becoming clearer for me and there are shades of grey. Everyone needs to draw their own line in the sand.
I don't like it when vegans are shouted down for not being 'pure' enough but find myself doing it too when someone eats honey or something with 'just a bit' of egg or milk.
So I like the article and site (shows people we are not extreme and that the lifestyle is not impossibly impractical) but I don't like it for other reasons (shows people we are not committed when our personal luxury and convenience is threatened).
I'll just do it my way. However, I don't thinks it's a good idea to isolate people who aren't perfect in their diet/lifestyle because none of us are really.
I have to say i agree with Seaside. Its not about being perfect its about trying the very best you can. To me being vegan is about checking and double checking, asking lots of questions. I am pround to be vegan and i have no problem with telling people i am vegan. Yes it is just a label but a ladel i have carried for many years. I have no problem if people want to be negitive to me about my diet, that is there problem.
I agree with what most of you have said since my little tirade;) I am proud to strive to be a true vegan and do call myself one, even with my imperfection. As some of you have already mentioned, my main non-vegan choices deal with my carnivorous companion animals and "left-over" products from before I became vegan. On the first point, I do not feel I should force my animals into veganism. (I have read the arguments for and against making cats and dogs vegan, but I cannot at this point force my beloved poodle and cat to be vegan. I do my best by trying to buy organic and specialty pet foods rather than the more inhumane big name brands, but I still find that an imperfect compromise and not completely vegan:( ) I also still have leather shoes, but I intend to only buy vegan shoes in the future. As far as food cravings, I really haven't craved any animal-based foods, but (as I've already mentioned) I know I have "slipped" at restaurants by eating some things I was not sure about. I just try my best and strive to be as vegan as I can be, which is to me about reducing the suffering in the world--both animal and human suffering--as much as possible. (Even though there will always be suffering, at least I feel I'm doing my small part to reduce it:) )
I'm not sure what happened on the thread you mentioned (maybe I should go read it and see), but I wouldn't let anyone else scare me out of feeling proud of being vegan. There are all sorts of vegans just like there are all sorts of women:)Quote:
tabitha
I agree with this wholeheartedly!Quote:
insubordination
The house seems to be full of creme eggs and cardboard eggs full of assorted gummy things and choc things. Every so often I'm tempted to eat one (they do smell good!) but then I just find something else that I will eat - like a piece of yummy vegan choc cake :D(thanks Cherry) and that sorts it out. Trouble is, that cake's playing havoc with my waistline!
If you are referring to Stickydate - I guess it's because she follows a vegan philosophy in her lifestyle - living compassionately, not wearing/eating/using animal derived products :) Therefore it wouldn't seem odd for her to join a vegan forum.Quote:
treehugga
In addition to this, Stickydate has a history with an eating disorder, where restrictions and labelling are a cause for concern for her. However, I won't go into this any further, as I'm sure if she wants to discuss it, she'll talk about it.
I kind of like that article. I don't think it matters what you call yourself really. It's what you do with your life that matters.
Too true Roxy :)Quote:
Roxy
One of the little old ladies that I clean for always worries about me because I dont eat anything at her house (she thinks Im wasting away - I wish). She gave me Co-op Digestives and Ginger nuts and Ive eaten the flipping lot!! This is why I NEVER buy biscuits, because I cant just have one.:(
I agree, Roxy, and yet, it makes me sad to think that anyone sees veganism as a restriction, and I would like to find a way to change this for those who do. Its not just what you do with your life, but how you view what you do that can make you happy or unhappy, depending upon how accurate your self-perception is. :oQuote:
Roxy
:D I think one of the reasons my customers find me so trustworthy is that food and drink never disappears from their kitchens when they are away. They don't realize that its becasue there is never anything fit to eat or drink for me anyway!Quote:
tabitha
Not that I would eat a vegan customer out of house and home if I had the chance. :o :rolleyes:
Yes that's true too.Quote:
Seaside
However, I see veganism as a restriction. Because of the way I choose to live, I am restricting my choices when it comes to clothing options, food options, personal care options, dining out options and lots more.
But because of these restrictions I am a healthier person, I am helping to make the planet a healthier place and I am not contributing to the suffering of the animals.
I hope that the restrictions I place upon myself, will someday bring justice and freedom to those who need it most.
I mainly just find it "restrictive" when I try to go out to eat;) I just find myself thinking how ridiculous it is that it's impossible to find dishes in some restaurants that I can even eat...especially desserts:p In most other ways, I don't find it restrictive as I don't miss eggs, dairy, or meat in my everyday life...I actually enjoy vegan food--both the taste and how I feel physically--much more than I can describe:p
I am sure they already have, Roxy. :) Thank you for your views, they are interesting, and, I think, a good topic for a new thread, if we don't already have one on how people view the impact vegansim has on the choices they make every day.Quote:
Roxy
I don't know if I slipped up or not:confused: I just got new carpet and didn't even think to ask about the material the backing was made of (I know the "ingredients" of the carpet and padding)...the guy installing said most backing is made from horse hair. I just tried to look it up on the internet and most of the stuff I found said it's made of nylon and other types of fibers...I'm hoping my installation guy has been misinformed...
i would have never thought to ask either. maybe they used to use horse hair, i would go with the info you found online, it's probably more accurate. either way, enjoy your new carpet!!
I'm speaking from personal experience...A few weeks ago, I caved and for 2 wks ate dairy. It was disgusting, but I kept eating it thinking it would eventually taste good...But it didn't. It's been hard, but I'm back to being vegan after some struggles (that stuff really is addictive!)
I just wanted to say to any of you out there who might be having some cravings...it's so not worth it. You will feel horrible about yourself and what you are doing...whatever you are craving will not taste as good as you think it will. Stay strong...don't make the same mistake I did.
Please don't judge me...I judge myself and the results of my actions enough and hate what I did and all the lives it harmed. I just figured maybe someone could learn from my mistakes without making one themselves.
Hi nmvegan and thanks for your honesty in posting what you did. We have had a few members here who have had previous struggles with dairy, and who have backslid into vegetarianism - but they, like you, have come back to veganism.
I'm glad you've come back to veganism and thank you for sharing your struggle with us.
I remember reading somewhere (maybe on the forum) that there is something addictive in cheese. Not as addictive as nicotine, but still addictive to some people. The only nonvegan thing I ever crave is cheesy things- so I use vegan cheese. Follow Your Heart and Tofutti are 2 really yummy brands of vegan cheese that I like.
Milk has opiopeptides, which are there to make the calf come back and eat/drink from it's mom. It's supposed to make the food somewhat addictive so the calf can survive. That's why dairy can be so addictive for some people. It's there for the baby, but now others are drinking it...
Wheat and oats are some of the foods that also contain some.
Maybe I've just been lucky but I've never craved anything, infact even the smell of cheese and butter makes me feel sick now.
Wow nmvegan, so there are vegetarians around here. Granted El Paso and Las Cruces (where I spend most of my time) are little far from Albuquerque but it's nice to see other people around here are vegan. I just converted a few weeks ago.
Thanks for sharing your experience with us. I've had some cravings for dairy but I ignore them and reach for some fruit. That usually takes care of it.
When I have cravings, I start looking for what my body is trying to tell me. Is it the calcium that I need? or the protein? or even the vitamin D and K that is added? I then try to eat the foods that contain these nutrients. I've only been vegan for three years and last month I craved cheese. For texture I ate the vegan soy cheese and then broccoli for the calcium. It took a week of eating specific foods rich in these nutrients for the craving to stop. My body wanted whatever it wanted NOW, but my brain told it to wait while it figured out what the body was saying.
How compassionate you are to be aware of the suffering that is going on when you choose certain foods. As a vegetarian you would not think about eating cheese as suffering, but you are now aware as a vegan. It is a journey of awareness, and it is full of interesting turns and loops as we learn. I have yet to have a straight path forward!
Sometimes I think cheese cravings can be fat cravings. I eat some avocado and it really helps.
*DISCLAIMER* I am no expert. The ideas and suggestions forthcoming are only ideas and suggestions. Please do not take them seriously as I have no solid proof.
Thank you.
I heard that there is a part in the brain that acts as a 'food memory.' When you eat food it stores characteristics such as: olfactory, texture, taste, and appearance...
Seven years ago i read the book 'Sugar Busters' and a book on the Glycemic Index. After reading these books I made the decision to cancel sugar and highly refined foods from my diet. It took about 2-3 months to rid myself of the sugar and highly processed food (and foods eaten alone with a high glycemic index) cravings.
I then eliminated almost all processed foods such as spagetti, bread, noodles, peanut butter, and ALL drinks (since IMO its more healthy to just eat an orange then drink the juice anyways)... and replaced them with more un-refined foods like: pot barley, oats, peanuts, oatbran (which is refined but still an excellent food IMO), legumes, seeds, and unaltered vegetables.
And after seven years of refining my eating patterns I now DO NOT CRAVE ANYTHING! I eat plain foods with very little or no salt. Often the foods I eat are raw.
Such as:
bkfast,
Raw oatmeal with flax oil and frozen vegetables
lunch,
Lentils with hemp oil and vegetables
dinner
Raw oatbran with peanuts
The oatmeal and lentils make a complete protein, as do the oatbran and peanuts. The foods are extremely simple and easy to prepare. and most of all:
I've had numerous tests done by an eating disorder clinic and ALL were normal. bmi 20. my RHR is under 50bpm. total cholestoral is 110, with LDL/HDL a 1:1 ratio. and my b12 and iron are perfect, and i have a very high energy level.
I think a person can live without many of the additives they put in food to make it taste better; salt, pepper, sauce, aspertame, spices... And I think that these additives can sometimes cause cravings that contribute to eating more and inturn weight gain. I think that additive cravings also cause many to listen to the 'cravings' as opposed to their bodies natural rythem and needs.
but this is just my body and how i feel about it. you may not be the same as me. and my ideas are only ideas. ;)
Lettuce has opiates too. Hehehe. When I was a young thing we used to boil up some "St. Patty's Day Smack" so named for the green color.
I read that the opiates help the calves sleep and therefore grow also. I figured it might have to do with the amount of greens the cows eat, but then factory farmed cows wouldn't have it? I guess that it is within the cow.
Hi there,
Ive been a vegetarian for the past 19 years, but recently i have decided to become a vegan. The main problem is i love all food stuffs with cheese in (vegetarian of course!!!) and am worried that i will give in!!! Can anyone suggest any tips on how to slowly change my diet, or am i best just changing my diet straight away!!! Any help would be great!!! Thankyou!!!