http://www.animalfreedom.org/english...atingmeat.html
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This will certainly come in handy next time someone tries to tell me off for being a vegan! Thanks :D
Thanks for that link Korn - very handy!
Roxy
Thanks for the link, Korn.
Don't forget to add "tradition" to that list. People always argue that eating meat is "traditional" and therefore OK, which is patently absurd. Tradition has been used to justify all kinds of oppression (racism, sexism, classism) so it is no surprise to see it mustered in defense of speciesism (crap, hope I spelled that right ;) ).
I find it funny when people say that eating meat is natural.
If eating meat is so natural, then why don't you eat it raw?
I totally agree. If a dog (or other carnavore) finds a dead animal in the road they see it as food. If humans are truly carnivourous, then why are we repulsed by dead animals?Quote:
John
Maybe some meat can be eaten raw. But the meats most popular in north america seem to be ones that would make you sick if you ate them raw (chicken, beef). If we were so meant to eat meat where are our claws and sharp teeth for downing and animal then tearing its flesh off. Good to note that humans never really started on this meat eating fad until they had a tool to kill the animal. Thats not natural.
You could eat beef and chicken raw but that would seem pretty unnatural to most people.
would you not get sick if you ate beef or chicken raw??
I've heard there's an incubation period of ~45 minutes-1 hour until dead animals become infected with harmful bacteria (excluding any deseases the animal could potentially be carrying). But like everyone else has said...eating raw meat has almost never existed in "civilized" societies.Quote:
TheFirstBus
Here in hickland some of the true hicks really are odd enough to eat raw meat sometimes - some of them do it when they're feeling especially mindless while edrunk and in a mood to do something dumb, for example...
They often get pretty sick from it, so i hear from the hicks i have spoken to about this situation, but then again.... people weren't naturally set up healthwise to eat fresh flesh raw, never mind commercial flesh.... so, yeah...
Oh, and the incubation period before something in contact with an area infected with dangerous micro-organisms (ie flesh in an abbatoir environment which is unhygienic - the vast majority if not all abbatoirs could be classifiable as unhygenic by definition) is reckoned to be around 5 seconds.
:P i think the 45 minute thing is just wishful thinking on the part of omnivores, to be honest with you.
Hens are by far the most diseased creatures raised within the flesh industry - i think a person would need to have issues with ignorance or stupidity if they would willingly eat commercially raised hens or chickens' flesh raw !
Well then, if that's the case (only 5 second gestation period for raw meat bacteria) that is only more of a reason not to eat meat :) .Quote:
Astrocat
But I wholeheartedly concur, eating raw meat is by far one of the stupidest things one can do for their own health.
People do it regularly though. It seems people don't understand that raw dead flesh is not only home to bacteria that may be pathogenic, but it can also contain worms that deplete vitamins from their hosts and spread pathogenic bacteria that they harbor. Not a fun thing to experience I'm sure.
On the other hand the best foods for removing intestinal parasites like worms are plants...
"in nature hardly any species of animal imprisons other animals for their entire lives so they can eat them when they want to"
This is a good comeback but doesn't this in a way justify hunting to the meat-eater? It's almost like saying: 'it's wrong to imprison an animal all it's life to be eaten but it's OK if it roams free and you kill it and eat it yourself.'
Am I making sense?
How would you tell a meat eater that it's wrong/unatural to even hunt and kill an animal yourself too?
Well maybe you could tell Mr Omni "If he thinks it natural for humans to hunt animals, then maybe he should do it in a more natural way, unclothed and without the aid of weapons" :DQuote:
Lilith
You don't need to explain why you don't do what you don't do (kill and eat animals)! :)Quote:
Lilith
But can they explain why they do it and even why they find that it's natural to do it... what or who it is that gives them the right to kill other beings? If it's unhealthy to eat meat, painful for the animal (and maybe for it's family), and unnecessary kill an animal, I guess they would have a heard time explaining you why they still choose to do so.
We also have this thread: Did humans always eat meat?
It's amazing how resistant people are to change. Even the people I know who eat meat and know it's bad for their heart just sigh and say things like "yeah but protein is essential.. you don't get any protein!" After I offer to arm wrestle them and they refuse for some reason, I kindly explain to them that they're wrong and that a vegan diet contains ample protein. Then they say something stupid like "well I gotta support myself.. scrape up a living. I can't be damned to be concerned about cows" and I tell them "it's a lot cheaper to buy a vegan diet than an omnivorous one. And besides, it's not just about the cows. A vegan diet is humanitarian. If the entire world were vegan, there would be almost no hunger." Then I give them the actual facts from Diet for a New America which I printed off these forums. Even then, after all that..after staring all the facts in the face.. they still say I'm crazy and I've been brainwashed by "liberals". Which proves the greed of the average human.
I think part of it is that old habits are hard to break, but even more important: they don't know how good good vegan food is. They falsely believe they have to eat food they won't enjoy as much as what they are currently eating.Quote:
Pilaf
But Omni's make us feel like we have to!Quote:
Korn
It's ridiculous/
"But can they explain why they do it and even why they find that it's natural to do it... what or who it is that gives them the right to kill other beings?"
They try to....but in a nutshell: no.
"If it's unhealthy to eat meat, painful for the animal (and maybe for it's family), and unnecessary kill an animal, I guess they would have a heard time explaining you why they still choose to do so."
I guess the saying "Ignorence is the only evil " is true then.
Even if you try inform them of these things they refuse to believe.
I suppose it's too traumatic for many to realise that we live in such a murderous world.
"We also have this thread: [URL=http://www.veganforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1194]Did humans always eat meat?
Thanks :)
"Well maybe you could tell Mr Omni "If he thinks it natural for humans to hunt animals, then maybe he should do it in a more natural way, unclothed and without the aid of weapons""
Lol! yeh I'll just get my head bitten off (pardon the meat-eating pun) for saying that cos they won't be able to think of a good argument for it. It's so annoying!! But at least it shows that I (we) stand 'correct' and them corrected.
Go on Lil, test em out!
Love Mozbee :D
Yea, I hear people often saying 'We've been eating meat for thousands of years'. I think to myself 'doesn't that make it WORSE?' If I punched someone in the face, they'd complain. By their logic, if I continued to punch them in the face all my life, then that'd make it more acceptable?Quote:
veganfreak
EDIT: A couple more things I thought of that I hear all the time:
"Animals are born on a farm so they don't know any different" (which is to say that they don't know their own 'natural' habitat, therefore anything they endure on a farm would be the only thing the animal knows; it would assume it 'belongs' there)
Of course is completely ridiculous, given that if someone gave birth to a baby, then put it in a barrel and kept there, it does not make it morally acceptable just because that's where the child was from birth.
"We are capable of eating meat therefore it is morally acceptable" (specific examples of how we are capable or meant to eat meat are things like our teeth, positioning of our eyes, intelligence etc)
Again, utter nonsense, given that we are all capable of many things that we choose not to do. Everyone is capable of robbery, murder, rape etc, yet we know that these things are unreasonable. The notion that we should do whatever we are capable of is nonsense.
Exactly. If every human did whatever he/she wanted just because he/she were "Capable", there'd be more crime and suffering in the world.Quote:
Tombstone
To be Human is to be able to make decisions which we deem good, and which progress society in more positive directions.
Quote:
Pilaf
Although, most humans are capable of showing compassion and love, but they choose not to. Perhaps if they did just because they were capable, the world would be a lot better place :)
I LOVE that one. Oh, and have you noticed that without help from some kind of tools, we can't kill and eat much of anything? We just don't have the equipment. No claws at all, and our canine teeth are short and blunt, not sharp daggers like those of true carnivores (such as cats).Quote:
I find it funny when people say that eating meat is natural. If eating meat is so natural, then why don't you eat it raw?
Thanks for the list Korn :D
everyone i know just says god said where soppose to eat animals,so that means we have to,if that makes any sense,:confused: ,which it don't,lol,
A lot of people have told me that our teeth are built to eat meat, therefor we should... Because we have fangs to tear flesh with.
This is what I always say to the teeth arguement.
ya we have like two or four canines.....how many "grinding" plant eating teeth do we have? a lot more. Another thing about the jaw, teeth arguement is our jaws can move side to side. Can your cats? Lions? I don't believe so. But cows do.
Does that make sense?:D
That's so true, Korn. I'd never even considered that. I eat a much more varied diet now, and much better/nicer and yes even tastier foods ..Quote:
Korn
... but I'm sure if you asked me at sixteen what it would be like to go vegan, I'd have said it was probably a lot of hard work and I wouldn't have been able to find food easily. Nothing could be further from the truth!
If we were really meant to eat meat how are we (vegans) able to stay alive and healthy without it?
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Korn
Thanks for the link Korn. I emailed it to my oddly animal loving/hunting dad.
I titled it "Hunting Myths?" hoping to open a conversation and not start an argument.
I think that there are many "valid" arguments in favor of eating meat... (ex. Meat tastes good.) I just think none of them are compelling.
What is funnier are the non-valid arguments: arguements which are logically invalid because they make no sense in any real of logic. For example: I eat meat because My Holy Book commands it. Or: Without eating meat I'm going to die.
I rarely meet people who say non-valid arguments, because most people realize they sound nuts when they hear themselves out loud... then they change their position and have valid, but non-compelling arguments. Those latter arguments are the ones that are most annoying, and not very funny.
That one made me laugh out loud..my younger brother always uses this one on me and mom. He seems to be ignoring the fact that I haven't had any meat since 2004 and she hasn't had any in six months. When are we supposed to keel over and die again? :DQuote:
xrodolfox
Excellent example of a stupid reason. My husband's family oft tries to get him with that one, claiming it's essential in order to maintain their Samoan heritage. They persist, even after his 30-year-old, flesh-loving cousin died of a major heart attack.Quote:
veganfreak
Having roots in the SE United States as I do (and a pair of prejudiced parents and a couple pair of grandparents even worse), I could argue that hate and bigotry are an essential part of my heritage. Oh, but that would be silly because cruelty against humans is bad and somehow cruelty against non-humans is acceptable. Laughable.
the only thing wrong with thaty, was a statement about cow farts being more poisonous to the planet than transportation fumes and actually some of the worst gases that come from jets (the planes that leave smoke trails) are actually very dangerous because they just stay up there and never really disappear.
So don't propose to your gf with sky writing men cause you're killing the planet...
you can eat all meat raw if it is fresh enough, thats why lions dont die from eating buffalo and stuff. i think this is a poor argument for killing fellow animals thougQuote:
TheFirstBus