I found this video on You Tube a while back. While it doesn't address why people would want to eat meat (except for a serious lack of good information) it does address the harms of eating meat.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MD67tltFyAw
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I found this video on You Tube a while back. While it doesn't address why people would want to eat meat (except for a serious lack of good information) it does address the harms of eating meat.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MD67tltFyAw
Thanks Harpy. <3
Jane M - amazingly cute avatar! *dies*
I'll check out that vid!
Free range, grass fed beef is actually not terrible for the environment. That's the best argument I have seen so far.
Also if you live in a country where it's impossible to live vegan (some Asian countries, most African countries).
Otherwise it's taste and vanity.
Impossible to live as a vegan in some Asian and most African countries? Never heard that one before. Which countries would that be? Please elaborate... :)
Just the water and electricity consumption involved in beef production - and the very existence of hundreds of millions of 'extra' kettle raised only because people happen to like beef and milk is bad for the environment. Even in a small country like Norway, there are hundreds of thousand of cow's - an animal that historically is imported to this country, and which wouldn't survive a year without humans.Quote:
Free range, grass fed beef is actually not terrible for the environment.
Buddhists say "Life is nothing but suffering and pain". Perhaps that's why they eat meat... :(
It is true that carnivores in the wild eat meat. Doesn't mean that we have to kill billions of animals in factory farms. Or eat animals or exploit them for their produce in any way. In fact we as society and the environment would be much better off if we didn't.
Even if cattle are raised organically, which I grew up around, it is still harmful to enviroment. Organic meat is less harmful, but not good for the enviroment. Most of the grain grown in the US is grown for the express purpose of feeding it to animals raised for human consumption. Then we have to so ship it in huge gas-hog Mac trucks all over to deliver it. The energy required to butcher, package, keep it cool during transit, in the store, etc. The energy used to grow the grains is insane, not to mention we could actually use those feilds to grow food, for say, starving children.
Eating meat, esp. in the large qauntities most "civilized" countries consume is horrible for the enviroment. However the foremost concern to me is a selfish one, eating meat is bad for humans. The obscene amount of meat the US consumes directly contributes to obesity, diabetes, and heart diesease.
There is also no nutritional reason to eat meat. People will tell you that protien, b vit. and iron needs cannot be met with a vegan diet. This is not true, for example black beans have 4x the amount of iron as beef. Beans, lentils, spinach, nuts, etc. are plentiful in iron or protien.
So here is how I see it, veganism helps the animals, the environment, and humans. Everybody wins! Yeah, I like winning.
Fiamma: SO TRUE!
Thesongbird: My omni brother once said it's just impossible to use all that land to grow anything but animal feed because the only things that can grow there are hard, inedible grains.
Does anyone believe this to be true? I can totally see his argument. I'm not defending meat eating, just saying. I'm also positive that people in the West are not going to actually grow crops and crops of food and export it over to poor countries. Although they already do this, I highly doubt anyone would give away food from THAT many crops (all the would be cattle ones).
Hmm I can see where you're getting at Sandra, but what about the four stomach processing system?
We definitely are different from cows. (again not trying to offend, just trying to work it all out with you guys :) )
The four stomach system is for eating grass not grain!
I just think the idea that ALL the land would be of no good for growing grain is silly.
The fact is there is enough land to grow grain to feed humans, your brother is just being pedantic! :)
Hmm good point Sandra. Plus as long as we work with the soil properly, we should be able to create fertile ground for even nicer grains :)
surely most grains are indigestible anyway unless they are processed in some way, eg soaked/boiled/sprouted but i think they'll grow in fairly poor soil so i can't see a problem.
This is a bit off topic, but i'll mention it here anyway.... a guy at work told me that he believed it was ok to eat meat because "God only created animals to benefit mankind" which meant he could eat & exploit animals all he liked without having to feel guilty about it.....
I'm an atheist so his reasoning for eating meat really bothered me. I don't think there are any valid arguments for eating meat, especially the 'god' argument.
Yeah, it's like I posted in another thread, that I think a main reason why people don't get overly bothered by what goes on to kill the animals, is that they have this idea ingrained that animals have a "purpose" that is "for" humans, or that animals "give their lives/milk/eggs/etc." (as if they do this willingly), sometimes using religion as part of that justification.
Cobweb: True. Also some grains can grow in REALLY crappy conditions.
*I also don't agree with all this God talk. When I first met my partner, he talked about how animals are just food, just like any plant. Nothing more, nothing less. We got into so many arguments and I cried a lot over it. Over time he has been switching to vegetarianism. He was never muslim per se, but he was born with heavily muslim parents so the thought was still ingrained in him despite his belief there is no God. This is also seen throughout the West very heavily in non-christian white families. You may not come from a christian family, but here Christianity is deeply ingrained in society itself.
*Edit, and not even in just WHITE families, but all races born and raised here.
Animals are all w@nkers.
:umm_ani:
I don't want to start an argument........but I have been to almost all of Asia (as a vegan) and never had a problem - sure some places didn't have fancy vegan ice cream but I always found things I liked to eat easy enough.
In Africa I found it quite surprising the vegan friendly cafes/restaurants that people would tell you about and direct you to when you explained to them you were vegan. They may not be on the forum (yet) but there are definitely vegans in Africa. :thumbsup:
i am hoping to move to africa in a year so i am hoping to be one of them. I will post back with info of how easy I am finding it. From what I have researched so far meat is a huge luxury there and my biggest obstacle is likely to be having meat offered to me as a kind gesture. I am not sure how I will deal with that. In this country it is so easy to turn down food but I'm not sure how easy it will be when food is more scarce.
The only justifications for eating animal products are pleasure, habit, culture and convenience. Not very good justifications in my opinion
Very good post.
Eating meat, whilst it may be very bad for the poor animal concerned, is not necessarily bad for the eater!
If done in moderation then, aside from the ethical problem, the only loser is the poor animal!
I look at my father who's 73, still works manually outdoors, and has eaten a portion of meat, a glass of milk and loads of vegetables every day of his life.
His father was 84 when he died and his father before him was well into his 80's.
They all worked outdoors all their days and ate a balanced omni diet. The only thing they would have eaten in excess is vegetables as meat, although eaten daily, was not plentiful!
The physical activity and fresh air would def have contributed to their long lives as well obviously, probably more so than the diet, but it shows that it's not meat and dairy that's the killer (to the human), it's the amount consumed.
My parents and grandparents were the same Gogs, they all lived well into their 80's. They were also heavy smokers! :confused: It's difficult to know what factors contribute to a long life and what factors don't...............maybe our parents would have lived to 100 if they hadn't eaten meat (or smoked).........who knows? :)
I do know though that my mum's bowel cancer was caused by eating meat...........at least that's what the doctor said.
An excerpt from a discussion with my nephew on vegetarianism:
Him: There's a reason 'meat' rhymes with 'great'.
Me: It doesn't.
Him: Oh yeah.
To play devil's advocate. I can tell you as someone with a degree in anthropology that EVERY primate in nature eats meat to some extent. Some like chimpanzees will actively hunt at times. Others will occasionally scavenge from carcases. But from a purely "natural" point of view, at some point every primate consumes some animal product. That would suggest at the least that perhaps at some point in our evolutionary history, this behavior might have been advantageous.
If it continues to be necessary or is moral is a completely different argument IMO.
I doubt you'll find anyone who sees this as a 'devil's advocat' kind of action here.Quote:
To play devil's advocate. I can tell you as someone with a degree in anthropology that EVERY primate in nature eats meat to some extent.
As far as I know, I don't think anyone (here or elsewhere) holds the idea that one species should follow the diet of another one. Humans are in many ways very different from eg. chimpanzees, and I've actually tried to see if I can find a reason to what what they do - but haven't found any. ;-)
Absolutely, as humans we have a capacity to create... and destroy much greater than any other animal on earth. I guess with great power comes great responsibility. :)
high cholesterol is nearly completely genetic and has little to do with diet.
I don't think meat is bad per se. What is bad for our health is the numerous chemicals in them (both through the animals being injected or consuming them and chemicals used in the slaughtering process. the added hormones and antibiotics. the food colouring made from tar. A lot of these chemicals are known carcinogens.
I also think people consume way more meat then needed and thus eat too much fat/protein and nowhere near enough other nutrients.
And of course, the treatment of the animals. The corruption involved.
I don't want to appear rude here, but what is your source for that claim?
Most doctors suggest that regular physical activity, a low fat diet and normal body weight are important contributors to reducing your "bad" cholesterol level. One example is http://www.heart.org/HEARTORG/Condit...38_Article.jsp
Best regards,
Andy
In the UK we have these adverts on TV that talk about high cholesterol and eating better food. I thought that most issues with high cholesterol are diet related? And lack of exercise and eating high fat food? There have been loads of studies that show that high cholesterol is caused by diet. Check out the China Study and Forks Over Knives, Dr John McDougall, Colin Campbell who believe that a lot of illnesses are caused by consuming animal products. These doctors treat high cholesterol with diet, a vegan/ plant based diet.
http://www.everydayhealth.com/high-c...-to-blame.aspx I'll try and find a better example when I don't have a toddler sleeping on me.
not rude at all, it's quite a statement and should have been backed up to start with. With a "normal" diet (which would include a bit of meat), you won't get high cholesterol unless you have the wrong alleles. You have to be consuming a whole lot of fat for it to be an issue if you have the alleles that relate to lower cholesterol
If you have the bad alleles, cholesterol is still usually controlled using diet and exercise, as it's just easier to do and less side effect than medicine.
I haven't seen the china study yet, but I imagine that the people with alleles that result in high cholesterol wouldn't have had a problem as there was so little fat in their diet. Of course, now they are consuming more fat, they would have more issues.
Not saying meat is good or even ok, but we should stick to the facts.
According to wiki, 1 in 500 have the bad allele (and since it's dominant, they'll have high cholesterol with a normal diet). When I learned this in my study (genetics) there was a higher number, but there could well be more genes regulating cholesterol levels. I'd be surprised if it was just one gene.
A "normal" diet includes a *lot* of meat and other animal products....Quote:
With a "normal" diet (which would include a bit of meat)
Cholesterol and diet http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50qezdTOSys You should definitely read the China Study with regards to animal products, heart disease and high cholesterol. They believe that a lot of our issues are diseases of affluence. It talks a lot about genetics and how they don't always determine what conditions you will have, and are often used as an excuse. Even the NHS says that high cholesterol is caused by bad diet, smoking, lack of exercise. http://www.nhs.uk/conditions/Cholest...roduction.aspx There are of course disorders that may make you prone to getting cholesterol, but you'd have to have a very low fat diet to compensate. http://www.drmcdougall.com/med_cholesterol.html There have been studies that show that vegans and omnis who consume the same amount of calories and weigh the same, the vegans have much lower cholesterol. Check out this lecture http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30gEiweaAVQ Lowered cholesterol through diet http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c80ghQytjZI Someone with a disorder that increases cholesterol, but changed diet http://www.vegsource.com/sarah-taylo...olesterol.html For example, I have a disorder that causes my blood to become too thick, I am at risk of strokes and heart attacks because it causes blood clots and clogs lining of arteries. But it is entirely my responsibility to eat well and look after myself, and the blood markers are dropping because I am eating well. Although I went vegan for ethical reasons, the longer I was vegan the more my levels went down. I also took turmeric and aloe vera. If I keep this up I won't need medication. Had I listened to the doctor, I'd be on anticoagulants with terrible side effects. The China Study believes that although we can be born genetically predisposed to certain conditions, lifestyle and diet play a huge role in triggering them and it's up to us to take responsibility. This is what's helping me get well.
If I was in a situation where I had to survive and there was nothing for me to eat, aka survival mode, I have no doubt that I would take another life to survive, however in this day and age with the abundance of nuts, seeds, wild edible greens, vegetables, fruits, etc.. there is no need to eat animal products. If any of you are craving animal products, go get a lot of sunshine or take a Vitamin D supplement like Vitashine because Vitamin D is needed to upregulate the production of cholesterol and a lot of other biochemical pathways.
:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:
Love it!