Respecting environmentally conscious meat eaters in the vegan/non-vegan forum?

Can vegans here respect an environmentally conscious meat eater in the vegan/non-vegan forum?








To Korn: Why so many posts? Because it is -20 C where I live right now.

In what way are you environmentally conscious?

Of course!!!!

But keep in mind it definately is a two way street. :)

I respect everyone, no matter what their beliefs. It is certainly possible to respect one another, to be kind and show courtesy, without having to agree or like what they choose to do. I even respect criminals (though I am not implying you are a criminal), because everyone has reasons for what they do, we are strongly influenced by many factors. Also because nearly everyone is capable of benefiting from kindness, so I act kindly and hope for the best. And because as a vegan, you are constantly coming across people whose choices you do not like. Certain things which many people legally choose to do can seem worse to a vegan than some crimes, so to find a way of dealing with this vegans have to come to some kind of understanding, for me it is just to respect and be kind to everyone, no matter what they do or think.

So of course I would respect a meat-eater who is genuinely interested in a respectful discussion with a vegan. I like to learn about other people's points of view.

I do know quite a lot about the environmentally destructive nature of (particularly) large-scale meat production, and I have concluded that being vegan (and preferably in addition, supporting organic agriculture, sourcing food locally, eating with the seasons, finding out the inputs which went into all your food, growing some of your own if you can and encouraging local food sustainability) is the best course of action for those who want to do the most for the environment.

But if anyone wanted to explain their points of view to the contrary, I would respectfully listen and consider and perhaps answer if I thought I had anything to offer.

I suppose it all depends why that person wants to visit the forum.


Leedsveg

Quote:

---

spartacus

Can vegans here respect an environmentally conscious meat eater in the vegan/non-vegan forum?








To Korn: Why so many posts? Because it is -20 C where I live right now.

---

There's no reason to disrespect someone for being environmentally friendly, but this is a vegan forum. Your pro hunting, anti-vegetarianism comments aren't going to be respected here. We do what we can to minimize the suffering of animals, so you'll have to excuse us when we show hostility towards someone who opposes us :p

I'm interested to know why you want to be a part of the forum if you don't share the same beliefs.

IMHO, environmentally conscious meat eater is an oxymoron.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environmen...meat-free-diet

http://51percent.org

http://www.newscientist.com/article/...meat-does.html

You might be environmentally conscious, but eating meat isn't environmentally friendly at all. If someone eats meat I'd rather see them not using factory farmed products, but I think that morally and also healthwise eating meat isn't good. Otherwise I have not much of an opinion on someone I don't know.

Quoting myself for a change, I commented a similar topic (respect) in this post:
http://www.veganforum.com/forums/sho...l=1#post673280

If someone wants to spend half they year literally killing and eating animals and clearly demonstrate that he doesn't respect animals' right to live their own lives - I find it a bit... odd that these people are asking us to respect what they do. I wonder how they would respond if someone would say "No, I don't really respect any actions which involve harming and killing living beings", let alone comments like "No, and I hope that even if non- human animals in many ways are different from humans, killing and harming them should be criminalized. Giving someone a parking ticket if he places his car a few feet away from where he should have parked it, but letting hunters get away with killing sentient beings when it can be avoided makes no sense at all".

All depending on how people define "respect", I'm not sure I respect meat eaters/hunters at all. I respect that they do what they do due to how they are raised, where they are raised etc - but for how long shall we accept that humans keep hurting and killing others', causing damage to the environment, and causing documented health risks for themselves and their family when there's no need to do it?

Wild animals ARE a part of our environment. To say that it's not OK to harm a tree, because trees are 'environment', but it's OK to kill a deer standing next to that tree because it's not part of our environment is creepy logic to me.

Quote:

---

kamal

IMHO, environmentally conscious meat eater is an oxymoron.

---

How weird!!! I was going to say exactly the same thing!!!! :lol:

Quote:

---

Back-Space

There's no reason to disrespect someone for being environmentally friendly, but this is a vegan forum. Your pro hunting, anti-vegetarianism comments aren't going to be respected here. We do what we can to minimize the suffering of animals, so you'll have to excuse us when we show hostility towards someone who opposes us.

I'm interested to know why you want to be a part of the forum if you don't share the same beliefs.

---

^ What he said.

Quote:

---

spartacus

Can vegans here respect an environmentally conscious meat eater in the vegan/non-vegan forum?

---

Meat eating is very simply the single most environmentaly destructive practice that exists Spartacus.

The only truly environmentaly conscious a thing a meat eater can do is stop eating it.

You are kinda "wanting to have your cake and eat it" in as much as you want respect for being 'environmentaly conscious', diet wise, without actualy being environmentaly conscious diet wise.

That is ridiculous and the ridiculous deserves not respect but ridicule which is, pretty much, what you are getting.

Anything you get from Korn or anyone else here that is closer to education than ridicule is more than you have earnt, m'meat munching matey.

As to the actual killing -- death, sadly, is part of life.

Quote:

---

spartacus

As to the actual killing -- death, sadly, is part of life.

---

So, you hunt and kill all the animals that you eat?

"Killing = death is a part of life" is not something meat-eaters can claim unless they are in war.

For a lion, tiger or other carnivore animal, that is correct, not for humans.

1. Are there no pro-hunting - environmentally conscious meat eater forums you can get some respect from?

2. Are you here to convert us to hunters? *guffaws*

I've heard the 'death is part of life', which is a rather empty argument for killing... anyone.

Death isn't really part of life, because when death comes, life stops. But to use such a statement to defend or justify killing of others makes no sense to me.

The word respect is used in so many ways, I think threads like these deep down has to do with people using that word in very different ways.

Quote:

---

To Korn: Why so many posts? Because it is -20 C where I live right now.

---

I've been living north of North America for most of my life, and in addition to what has been posted in other threads (about not having to live in areas where it's hard for humans and animals to survive, about various ways to preserve food for the winter and so on), claiming that one has to kill animals in certain areas or seasons don't make more sense to me than if someone would say that "unless I have slaves, I can't afford supporting my family with food and clothes' or 'unless I beat my kids they won't behave'.

There's also this fascination some meat eaters have for local food. These people (who have with imported cars, clothes, computers and so on) insist that the food has to be local, that they can't move anywhere else, and that learning about preserving and storing food isn't an option. They may buy food at supermarkets without thinking about the fact that this isn't fresh food, but has been preserved in various ways so it can be stored for months.

I'm all for local food, but if local food isn't possible, and one doesn't want to move to other areas, one simply has to get food from elsewhere or be prepared for the winter by using beans, rice, herbs and so on that is local but stored properly. That is... if one respects other living beings' right to have a life instead of becoming our food.

And if that respect doesn't exist, discussions like this probably don't have much value anyway. The situation may just end up with non-vegans saying that they think it's OK to kill wild game or animals which have been treated 'humanely', while vegans states that we have no right to kill other living beings just like that. But that's not a real discussion, it's just sharing one's conclusions... except that most meat eaters don't use animal products as a result making a choice to do so, so their meat eating (etc) isn't really based on a conclusion, but on a habit transferred from someone else.)

Some even seem to be proud of having killed these animals. And they don't seem to get that they don't need meat or that if more people would live like contemporary hunters-gatherers do, the populated parts of the world would soon be short of animals to kill. We're way too many humans around to live like many of our ancestors did.

Quote:

---

spartacus

As to the actual killing -- death, sadly, is part of life.

---

Said the defence counsel for Jeffery Dahmer/Hitler/Pol Pot/Idi Amin ... etc ... etc ...

Quote:

---

spartacus

As to the actual killing -- death, sadly, is part of life.

---

yup... i have heard very similar arguments from serial killers. The question here is (leaving the environmentalism of eating say for example road kill), why is it just part of life when applied to other species but not our own?... always makes me wonder as when it really comes down to it, most human beings seem unable to comprehend the implications of Darwin's theory: we are not the center of the universe, just one more of the species.

Quote:

---

spartacus

As to the actual killing -- death, sadly, is part of life.

---

I understand you have children - would you want them to grow up in as natural an environment as possible, peaceful and happy, before dying a natural death?
Or would you prefer them to grow up knowing only pain, grief and imprisonment, dying in terror at the hands of a butcher? Death, after all is a part of life, right?

Of course death is a part of life, but this is not a licence for us to inflict that death however we please on species we are able to dominate, simply to satisfy our greed and our palates.

I was discussing this very thing with my wife today. It depends how into 'labels' you are. Labels don't do a lot for me - life is not black and white. However, to identify yourself with a group of people, to wear their label, is a black and white thing. Thus you can't say that you are vegetarian but you do eat chicken occasionally. Or that you are a vegan but still like the odd bit of cheese. The same applies to religion, politics, sexuality etc.

Perhaps, in using the term 'environmentally conscious' you actually mean free range or organically fed? But at the end of the day that animal has still been bred, fed and killed for human consumption - that is an anathema to a vegan. People here will of course accept the right of any person to hold the views that they do on any subject, but at the end of the day this is a vegan forum and you will be challenged at every turn if you sought to argue that in any circumstances it was OK to eat meat.

Quote:

---

Greyowl55

at the end of the day that animal has still been bred, fed and killed for human consumption - that is an anathema to a vegan.

---

(just playing devil's advocate here)

I see eating road kill as acceptable from a sustainability and avoiding harm as far as practically possible point of view... I think apart from the "labels" issue that Greyowl is discussing, (and of course, assuming that the road kill has been accident not killed for the purpose of eating meat!), eating road kill is not necessarily against the "ethical values" of veganism.

(of course, it is gross to eat corpses etc and I have no intention to do it which is like I guess most vegans feel!)

PS reasoned arguments for/against this comments are welcome...
emotional arguments also welcome (though when you write them, remember I am likely to agree with most of your comments from an emotional point of view) :p

Quote:

---

PS reasoned arguments for/against this comments are welcome...

---

http://www.veganforum.com/forums/tags.php?tag=roadkill ;-)

Thanks Korn, very interesting thread!

Yes, thank you. Seems a simple enough issue, for me at least. It doesn't matter how it died, it is off limits. And would be too if I was an omnivore as it would no doubt be contaminated. Plus, I personally would find the thought revolting:eek:

Has the original poster disappeared?

The original poster doesn't have an active account here anymore. He started by saying that he wasn't currently a vegan etc., but by looking at the many posts (especially those who weren't approved), he definitely seemed to be more interested in convincing us to use animal products.

He now insists that "the vast majority of vegans on your board are immature urban-dwellers..." and that "Your ancestors and you have destroyed your wildlife habitat..." - and more.

Even if I specifically - and publicly - already have posted that his posts have been made shorter and that not all his posts have been approved, he insists that I'm "cowardly" and that "You even lacked the dignity to let the others know you were heavily censoring my comments". All non-vegans on this board have moderated accounts, and this won't change. And again: Discussion is OK, propaganda isn't.

He wanted to have unmoderated post, free access to PMs etc., and even pointed me to another forum he thought I should use as a model for this forum - but that other site wasn't a vegan forum. I think Spartacus' main problem is that he doesn't really know what veganism is and at the same time wants to convince us that it's wrong.

This, combined with asking the same questions repeatedly (many questions in one post, as seen in several threads) and lack of interest in looking at existing threads makes it impossible to keep up with his high posting (and disagreeing) rate. With unmoderated posts, he would have been the most active poster on this site, constantly attacking vegan viewpoints in a number of threads.

Other non-vegans are still welcome to discuss with us, one topic at a time - unless their agenda is to convince is that we should use animal products. In order to prevent another 'Spartacus episode', they should, however, read this first:
http://www.veganforum.com/forums/sho...important-info

Wow Korn, sounds like he gave you another job! I hope there are not too many people coming on here like that. Thank you for dealing with him.