Re: How to explain "no milk"?
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John
It seems that you need a two-pronged argument. One prong addressing the reality of where our dairy comes from; and the other prong addressing this supposed cow utopia.
Yup - that's exactly what I'm looking for. And the reality is that in the Alpine villages where my mother used to go for vacation, and where some of her family still do go, the second scenario is really still true.
Anyway, I guess what I'm trying to get at here is the distinction between Animal Rights and Animal Welfare. If you show any rational person how cows are treated in a dairy factory farm, they'll be horrified and by strongly against it. So the Animal Welfare movement will now work strongly to improve the conditions for the cow. Then they say, "look, these are happy cows, they are treated well, allowed to live their lives, milked only of their excess milk," etc. You and I both know this is still unacceptable - the cow needs to be given its freedom. That's the Animal Rights aspect - animals should have the right to live their lives largely unimpacted by humans. But to persuade omnis of this you have to be able to argue why you think animals have these rights. So in this idyllic scenario for the cows, how do you argue?
Re: How to explain "no milk"?
The 'idyllic' situation still involves cows bred to have extremely enlaged udders, which would never occur in nature (and must be uncomfortable, to say the least). You only have to look at a horse to see that. And what happens to the male calves? It may LOOK idyllic but what goes on behind the scenes? :(
Re: How to explain "no milk"?
My 2 cents - I tend to think drinking milk is worse than eating meat. - I think milk looks less horrible as there no blood and guts and it doesn’t seem so much like a piece of flesh, so people are able to keep eating it a lot more easily than eating meat.
But I think drinking the cows milk causes more animal suffering than eating the cows flesh, A cow and MANY calves suffer to make milk. When you eat meat you are killing one animal, when you drink milk you are paying for heaps to be killed. The milk industry supplies the meat industry and the two are intertwined.
I also read that sometimes (and given populations that means thousands) dairy cows are pregnant when they are slaughtered. Most people gross out at this, to imagine baby calves suffocating in their mothers tummy when she is killed, or that a mother cow has to give birth in the slaugherhouse :( or to see their almost full grown fetuses in the slaughterhouse blood, Viva has some good pictures and articles about pregnant dairy cows being killed.
In my city, ages ago a dairy cow being taken to the slaughterhouse gave birth on the truck pretty much outside the building, on the motorway. The road outside it is a big steep hill and the calf rolled out of the truck and onto the road, the zoo took it and adopted it. At the time motorists were all freaking out because of this poor animal and it was in the paper.
Re: How to explain "no milk"?
Have you reminded your mom and others that the milk they buy from the supermarket does not come from the "Cow's Paradise" farm that she fondly remembers? I get this argument all the time. I just tell them, "well, the milk you get at Wal-Mart doesn't come from Uncle Jed's farm, it comes from a factory farm" and they usually shut up because they ALL shop at Wal-Mart *big snarl*. But, they still run over and buy the milk.
On a side note: I've noticed lately that I can buy a gallon of soymilk for the same price that my husband can buy a gallon of cow's milk. No more of the excuse that it's cheaper than soymilk these days.
Re: How to explain "no milk"?
Actually, I don't know what the dairy farming conditions are like in Germany. Definitely a lot less hormones used (as they're illegal over there, due to the undesirable side effect of growing breasts on young boys).
Nonetheless, she does often go to farmer's markets where the small farmers go, who frequently do still have fairly idyllic farms.
I don't want to keep making the "it can be this bad" argument, when I know perfectly well that's spurious. We all know how terrible the dairy factory farms are. But would you drink the milk of a happy alpine cow, bred by choice, raised by its mother, on cow's milk, milked by hand, etc.? I certainly wouldn't anymore, so obviously the horrible treatment cows get in the factory farm isn't the only factor leading to my choice. And I still eat all kinds of junk food (e.g. Golden Oreos), so the healther thing certainly isn't it for me. So how do I explain to others that it shouldn't be a personal choice, that the decision to drink milk is no more defensible than buying cotton from a slave plantation?
Re: How to explain "no milk"?
Quote:
Michelle
On a side note: I've noticed lately that I can buy a gallon of soymilk for the same price that my husband can buy a gallon of cow's milk. No more of the excuse that it's cheaper than soymilk these days.
Yes, that is good!
My wife gets organic cow milk for herself and the kids, and my in-laws kinda freaked out this weekend - they wanted "normal" milk. What a bunch of morons!
On another aside, my son has a school friend whose mother grew up on a dairy farm. She used to have to inject the crap into the cows. She won't touch cow's milk with a barge pole.
Re: How to explain "no milk"?
Well, in the ideal situation, the heart of animal right, I think, comes down to just that, rights. It is easier to see the wrong if we, in the past in the U.S., if black slaves we're not beaten or hurt, but their excess breast milk was taken away without their say in the matter. It depends on choice. It is their milk, and they should have a right to choose to keep it, and since they cannot be asked, it should not be taken.
If a woman whose newborn has died, but they are still capable of producing milk, they might choose to donate it for women who can't. But, imagine it being taken away against their will for people who don't NEED it. Most people would think that unacceptable, and I think the major point in animal rights is that all animals deserve the same basic rights as we do, thus making milk taking unethical.
This is what makes eating bugs or other supposed "unfeeling" beings, taking eggs, and taking milk unethical. Unless it is a choice you feel you must make for the good of the animal or of all animals (such as spaying and neutering or food choices of a companion animal), I think this applies.
Re: How to explain "no milk"?
This afternoon outside the complex where I live, one of my male neighbours was talking with an electrician who came to fix the outside lights. The 'sparky' was saying to my neighbour that cows milk is all wrong for humans, etc, and my neighbour argued that he buys heaps of milk to drink because it has calcium. Anyway, I butted in to say that Vitasoy calci+ has plenty of calcium, and so do leafy green vegetables etc. The 'sparky' had a broad grin on his face, and asked me if I'd tried almond milk as well. Afterwards, my neighbour wanted to know more, and we had a nice chat. Hopefully some small changes will come about. :)
Re: How to explain "no milk"?
:) cool !
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So how do I explain to others that it shouldn't be a personal choice, that the decision to drink milk is no more defensible than buying cotton from a slave plantation?
It seems to me that the issue being discussed here is a similar one to the one that was aired out in the "vegan view on eggs" topic, ie why is captivity in order to use others (ie their bodies or bodily fluids) for one's own benefits in itself a form of exploitation ?
Here there are no factory farms for a long way in any direction, so pretty much every farm is "idyllic" - the cows are still treated horribly, of course, but they look nice standing out in the fields with their swollen udders and chronic foot ulcers and digestional parasites etc.... thus the "idyllic" facade seems to be gobbled up by many consumers.
Even when there is no exploitation involved a great many people usually wouldn;t go sucking the titties of a human (ie their next-door-neighbour) to get milk - and give lame reasoning like "ewwww but that's GROSS" if asked why not (similar to the cat-milk debate) , so it seems thoroughly bizarre that it should be expected that people should have to justify not second-handedly sucking the titties of a cow, goat or sheep just because people en masse are conditioned not to find this gross or unnatural.
Re: How to explain "no milk"?
Eve - you are an awesome advocate!
snivelingchild - you write what's in my head.
Astrocat - I love the way you described that - the "second-handed sucking [of] titties of a cow" made me laugh!
Re: How to explain "no milk"?
The only time you'll see calves in the field with their mothers is if they are being raised for beef, ie slaughter. :mad: In this country at least.
Dairy cattle have their calves stolen from them when they're born and raised for veal (slaughter again) or as replacement dairy cattle. :evil:
Re: How to explain "no milk"?
Uhm, sorry guys, but our milk here does come from very pretty Alpine farms, many organic or damn near, but this does not stop at least some cattle from suffering. Fact is that when they breed dairy cows and the calf is male - even in the alps - it will end up at the slaughter house sooner or later. All that time in a lovely pasture will not prevent this. A male dairy cow taking up pasture land is not very economical, you don't need many to breed a herd and - I hate to break it to you but - they have tractors in the alps too. So no, they don't need steers for plowing. And on the last point, we thankfully don't have much factory farming in the alpine region. The slaughter houses - however - are no more humane than anywhere else (not that I should be putting the words humane and slaughter house in the same sentence). Besides which, many animals are sold at auction and then transported to other countries to farms or slaughter houses. This includes those sweet ponies they have in villages or on small farms that host vacationers.
What's wrong with using dairy products?
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Hello, I'm new to this board or forum, whichever you prefer. I am curious about veganism. I respect the lifestyle. It is not my chosen lifestyle and I do not criticize those who are vegan. I just have some things I need to understand. I understand, although I would find it difficult to adapt to this lifestyle, that vegans don't use any animal products. I just don't see anything wrong with having a grilled cheese sandwich once in awhile or having some scrambled eggs or even drinking a glass of milk. If someone could explain this to me I would really appreciate the info.
thank you.
Hi!
We have a few thousand posts about these topics already - plaese look around, and I'm sure you'll understand more about why vegans are vegans... :)
You may want to check out these threads:
Vegans and eggs
Arguments against dairy products