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What do vegans have against quick, momentary killing of animals?
Hi,
I'm not a vegan. I'm not a vegetarian. I do, however, refuse to eat the meat of an animal that has been kept in unsatisfactory conditions, i.e. factory farmed.
I'd like to ask what, specifically, do you have against the killing - that is, quick, momentary killing - of animals?
Thanks,
Amos
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Re: Killing animals
If I picked a random person off the street and killed them quickly what would you have against that?
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Re: Killing animals
Some people think that vegans are only concerned with suffering, pain an animal cruelty, but that's a misunderstanding. You won't find a vegan meal anywhere containing meat from an animal that had a quick, momentary death.
Why? For the same reason that you are against being killed - even if your death would be 'quick' and 'momentary'...
Would you eat a cat or a dog - if it had not (using your words here...:) 'been kept in unsatisfactory conditions, i.e. factory farmed'. If not, why not? If yes, would you eat 'your own' dog under these conditions? If yes (I hope I won't get a yes...), would you eat a human under these conditions?
You don't want to die, and you wouldn't accept being killed for food. The life of an animal as 'important' for itself, and maybe for other animals and humans, as your life is for you.
Why do you eat meat? You are probably used to eating meat, and therefore like the taste. But there are hundreds of delicious meals in this world that you may like, but that in itself isn't a very valid reason to eat them, is it? ;)
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Re: Killing animals
[Edit: Text removed by moderator, because it's not relevant at a vegan forum].
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Korn
You don't want to die, and you wouldn't accept being killed for food. The life of an animal as important for itself, and maybe for other animals and humans, as your life is for you.
But is an animal really capable, past instinct, of making that decision? I realise the implications of making the decision for it are just as bad if not worse, but if you (and I'm not suggesting this would happen) took a baseball bat to an animal until it was within an inch of its life, it would still try to avoid death. Do the same to a human, and he/she'd probebly beg for you to kill him/her quickly.
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Korn
Why do you eat meat? You are probably used to eating meat, and therefore like the taste. But there are hundreds of delicious meals in this world that you may like, but that in itself isn't a very valid reason to eat them, is it? ;)
Um... yes, I'd say it was!
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Re: What do vegans have against quick, momentary killing of animals?
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But is an animal really capable, past instinct, of making that decision?
That's not even relevant... unlike plants, animals show that they don't want to become food, be killed... and just like us, they normally have a belonging to other animals, their children. There's nothing reasonable that suggests that they are here to provide is with 'food' we we don't need... on the contrary, they are equipped with wings, speed and senses (sight, hearing, smell) perfectly fit for escaping a silly human trying to kill them. Sure, we can make tools to kill them (we are not physically equipped from nature to fly after birds, swim after fish or run after deer), but even if we can make tools, that doesn't mean that we need to make weapons. If they 'decide' to escape your gun by logic or intution makes no difference. And by the way, humans aren't know to eat other humans in a coma, even if they are not capable of making decisions or feeling pain.
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But there are hundreds of delicious meals in this world that you may like, but that in itself isn't a very valid reason to eat them, is it?
Um... yes, I'd say it was!
Well, if it is, there are hundreds of meals you can try without harming anyone else, yourself and the environment, and since you can't try them all, why not go for the non-authoritarian solutions - the meals you can get without making decisions about others' lives - first?
We'll deactivate your membership now, because this is a site for vegans and people who want to go vegan, and you don't belong to that group. Good luck in finding out what feels right for you, and the more you at some point include what 'feels right' from an animal and environmental (and human health) perspective, the better!
Hasta la vista!
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Re: What do vegans have against quick, momentary killing of animals?
I'd better add that this is not a challenge to what you believe about how we should treat animals, it's just a question.
Well, you're on one of two levels:
1) You think we are on the same level as animals. We are animals, allbeit we can make decisions on a moral standpoint. If this is where you stand, then surely it is just as bad for, say, a leopard to kill a deer to eat as it is for a human to shoot and eat a duck? What about a lion which kills and eats a man?
2) We are above, by means of placement or just intelligence, the animals. In this case, as superiors it is our decision whether to eat that plant or this cow, neither of which can really make a decision based on anything other than instinct. The cow eats grass not because it doesn't like the idea of stomping on the rabbit playing between its feet, but because it's fit for chewing and digesting grass.
With that, and my respect, I bid thee adieu.
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Re: What do vegans have against quick, momentary killing of animals?
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amosharper
Well, you're on one of two levels:
1) You think we are on the same level as animals.
I'm not talking about levels at all. I'm not thinking that a human on a 'higher level' (intellectually, a more loving person, a human more capable of making decisions or whatever) should make decisions about other humans' lives either. What you do is to create a hierarchy, were someone possibly can kill and eat others based on t heir levels or roles - I'm not.
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We are animals, allbeit we can make decisions on a moral standpoint.
Whether we actually can, or if our decision is a sum of all our present and past influences isn't relevant for me either.... sorry.
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If this is where you stand, then surely it is just as bad for, say, a leopard to kill a deer to eat as it is for a human to shoot and eat a duck? What about a lion which kills and eats a man?
The term 'vegan' doesn't cover what we/I think about animals eating animals or animals eating humans, but if you ask me, I'd prefer not to be eaten by anyone, and definitely don't enjoy seeing an animal harming another. You have to ask an animal or yourself... but using the fact the animal X kills animal Y as an excuse for another animal being killed for human food doesn't make sense at all. Some animals kill for food, some don't, we don't need to copy the behavior of animals, and definitely not kill because others (animals or humans) kill.
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2) We are above, by means of placement or just intelligence, the animals.
See above. These levels of decision making exist in your head - and if you ask me, they'll disappear if you want them to... ;)
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In this case, as superiors it is our decision whether to eat that plant or this cow, neither of which can really make a decision based on anything other than instinct.
Who have the right to give a human the right to kill another animal or another human? And why would he want to when the victim don't want it and he doesn't need to, and least, but not last, because it feels wrong?
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The cow eats grass not because it doesn't like the idea of stomping on the rabbit playing between its feet, but because it's fit for chewing and digesting grass.
That's your opinion... humans are fit for chewing and digesting thousands of plants, and of course, you can decide (or at least feel that you decide) to kill and eat another sentient being, but my humble advice is to try something else than eating dead corpses (read: gourmet vegan food) for a few weeks and see how it feels.
Most meat eaters have never decided to become meat eaters, they are trained to eat meat, and are trained to ignore the fact that they are chewing on the muscles of a calf or the wings of a bird, and trained to think that we are 'above' other species in the sense that 'someone' has given us the right to kill them, just because they happen to like the taste of meat.
Now, even if I would have agreed with you that we have the right or capacity to make a decision to kill another being for food (I disagree), there still wouldn't be a reason to do it. Remember that most vegans (unless raised as veggies) have tried both a traditional meat based and a vegan lifestyle, and ended up as vegans. Unfortunately, most meat eaters not only did never decide to become meat eaters, but also, they've never tried something else, and lots of them may never try it unless they become 40-50 and their doctor tells them to cut down on animal products due to health problems - still, they have lots of opinions about what feels most right (of the two lifestyles). Why not give it a try?
Again, good luck, and good bye.
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Re: What do vegans have against quick, momentary killing of animals?
i try to live in a way that causes the least amount of harm to the world around me. cutting off another creature's life is destructive, selfish, and unnecessary - therefore i refuse to do it or support it.
even if the creature feels no pain, that animal was born onto the earth with a precious number of years, and that's just been taken away because somebody thought a piece of venison would taste nice today. i don't think fleeting enjoyment justifies taking something from another creature that can never be given back.
that's my philosophy.
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Re: What do vegans have against quick, momentary killing of animals?
It is scary and horrifying to have one's life taken away-there is no "quick and momentary" about it. The physical body fights against destruction.
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Re: What do vegans have against quick, momentary killing of animals?
I know there's dispute over labeling oneself vegan, but there are people out there who call themselves vegan but would eat an animal (or its products) who spent its life running and playing. That is, people have different motivations for being vegan--health, environment, ethics--and for some people it's the factory farming and not the life-taking that's the issue, correct? Similar to the author of the OP, I suppose. But since it's basically impossible, unaffordable, and perhaps a little weird to track down such an animal for personal consumption, vegans with this philosophy live their lives as the other vegans do.
I know this website defines vegan as someone who is against, among other things, killing animals, but other definitions are out there. Do the members here feel that potential meat-eaters are not really vegans?
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Re: What do vegans have against quick, momentary killing of animals?
Out of curiosity, what's quick or momentary about spending four to five years in unsanitary, cramped, poorly ventilated living conditions, suffering through infections due to excessive poorly administered injections, lack of exercise, horrible medical care (if any, as most "organic" animals aren't allowed even the most basic medicine), sore body parts due to over milking...
Surely you can't be so clueless as to believe the animal industry picks happy farm animals on sunny, comfy farms and quickly and momentarily (whatever the f that means anyway) chops their heads off.
Are people getting dumber, or do the arguments make less sense as time goes on?
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Re: Killing animals
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amosharper
[Edit: Text removed by moderator, because it's not relevant at a vegan forum].
If you took a baseball bat to an animal until it was within an inch of its life, it would still try to avoid death.
Which tells me it doesn't want to die, so for me to then kill it is cruel and selfish beyond measure. I don't want to be a cruel and selfish person. I find it strange to enjoy feasting on the flesh of another being whose life was taken from it forceably and unwillingly. Personally I have no desire to open a fridge and select body parts to put in my mouth and chew and swallow. I could not eat a human thigh, finger or tongue. To eat an animal's seems to me as strange. But it wasn't always that way, I just woke up one day to what I was doing. If you haven't, what I've just written it won't mean anything to you and that's the way it is.
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Re: What do vegans have against quick, momentary killing of animals?
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Korn
Most meat eaters have never decided to become meat eaters, they are trained to eat meat, and are trained to ignore the fact that they are chewing on the muscles of a calf or the wings of a bird, and trained to think that we are 'above' other species in the sense that 'someone' has given us the right to kill them, just because they happen to like the taste of meat.
Again, good luck, and good bye.
Perfectly put Korn. Re last sentence, have you terminated their membership?
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Re: What do vegans have against quick, momentary killing of animals?
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GreenSpecs
Perfectly put Korn. Re last sentence, have you terminated their membership?
It was actually never activated, but is changed from Awaiting Membership Approval to 'Not Active' now...
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Squirrel
I know there's dispute over labeling oneself vegan
Hi Squirrel... the term vegan is pretty clear, and has always been: You won't find meat, eggs, dairy products or honey in a vegan meal anywhere, and it's always been like that.
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there are people out there who call themselves vegan but would eat an animal (or its products) who spent its life running and playing.
Again, you won't find meat from an animal that has 'spent its life running and playing' anywhere. If people who eat meat call themselves vegans or vegetarians, they just don't know what the word means. Maybe you mix up the terms here - there may be some animal welfare activists or GreenPeace-members who eat meat. but no vegans. Nada.
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That is, people have different motivations for being vegan--health, environment, ethics--and for some people it's the factory farming and not the life-taking that's the issue, correct?
No, that's a huge misunderstanding. You can't be vegan for health reasons alone, because vegans are against wearing eg. fur, and fur as you know isn't known to create health problems. There are no vegans who eat meat from animals that are not factory farmed - if you want to take a test, check out all the vegan cookbooks out there and call all the vegan cafes in the world and check if they have meat from non-factory farmed animals: they don't. If you read a little about the term 'vegan' and it's roots, and you'll see what I mean. The word 'vegan' never covered eating meat from certain animals, like wild deer, while not eating meat from others, and there are no other sites, books or forums that suggests that meat from certain animals is part of the vegan diet: if they would have done that, I'd see it as an attempt of 'hijacking' the term vegan, just like some people eat fish and chicken and what not and claim to be vegetarians. They are not, but for some reason, there's always a very small minority who for some reason want to use a certain term about themselves, and don't really match the definition of that word, and try to change the term instead of changing themselves...
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Squirrel
Do the members here feel that potential meat-eaters are not really vegans?
As a final comment about eating meat and being vegan, I should probably also add that regarding what is covered by the definitions of words like 'red' or 'vegan' or 'water', feelings are pretty much relevant - for a change. If you look at a stone, it's a stone even if you find two people who feel that it's not a stone, but a librarian from Texas. :) A stone is a stone, blue isn't red, and vegans don't eat meat. :) 'Vegan' isn't a religion, it's a description, and although feelings and compassion definitely is a part of being vegan, and even if there are situations where two vegans may disagree in what is right and what is wrong, or about 'how vegan' a certain action is, eating meat from certain animals has never been part of that term.
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Re: What do vegans have against quick, momentary killing of animals?
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Korn
A stone is a stone, blue isn't red, and vegans don't eat meat.
That sounds like a signature in the making. :)
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Re: What do vegans have against quick, momentary killing of animals?
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Korn
'Vegan' isn't a religion, it's a description, and although feelings and compassion definitely is a part of being vegan, and even if there are situations where two vegans may disagree in what is right and what is wrong, or about 'how vegan' a certain action is, eating meat from certain animals has never been part of that term.
Right, I agree with you. The person who found a happy-living chicken (or roadkill) to eat, and ate it, would not be a vegan. But if they spent their entire life avoiding animals products yet still would have eaten that hypothetical chicken, would you call them vegan? Splitting hairs here because I think many people convert out of opposition to factory farming, not out of opposition to consuming other creatures. For example, I got some print materials from Vegan Outreach in the mail today. They clearly stress the problems with factory farming, as does Meet Your Meat. What would you say to these materials? Are they giving people (maybe me) a false idea of what veganism is? Or are they doing good by reaching people who would not be influenced by an animals-are-our-equals argument, getting them to take the first of several steps?
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Re: What do vegans have against quick, momentary killing of animals?
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Squirrel
Right, I agree with you. The person who found a happy-living chicken (or roadkill) to eat, and ate it, would not be a vegan. But if they spent their entire life avoiding animals products yet still would have eaten that hypothetical chicken, would you call them vegan?
Since you don't harm or kill an animal (or human) by eating someone killed by a car, you could theoretically be vegan and eat meat from someone killed in a car accident, but I'd say that it's just as likely that you'll ever come across a vegan picking up and eating a rabbit killed by a that it is that you'll find a non-vegan eating meat from a human killed in a car crash - for reasons that go beyond logic and ethics. I wouldn't want a dead human or animal in my food, even if it was killed in a car accident (would you?).
If someone put meat in a meal on a vegan cafe and afterwards said (when vegans complained) 'what's the problem, it was roadkill!', I'd make sure other vegans would know that these people put meat in vegan meals, and boycott the place.
Please don't forget that the word vegan has at least two functions, one of them is describing that there is no meat, eggs, milk etc. in a meal, for people who (for various reasons) won't eat these products. Maybe there's nothing 'wrong' - as such - in eating an animal/human that died in a car crash (which btw. is very different from being killed by a hunter), but I still wouldn't put the blood and muscles of these poor beings in my mouth, for reasons that you may or may not understand.
Personally, I don't think I have more to say about this. We have discussed roadkill etc. in earlier threads, in case you want to have a look at earlier, similar discussions.
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Splitting hairs here because I think many people convert out of opposition to factory farming, not out of opposition to consuming other creatures.
Convert to... veganism? If they avoid meat from factory farms, and go hunting for animals 'who spent their life running and playing' in the weekends, they have not converted to veganism, and if they would register here to promote the ethicalness of hunting, we'll ban them (we've done that a couple of times already).
Please read a little about the history of veganism. By the way, did you find any vegan cookbooks with meat in it's recipes, meat from 'happy animals'? ;)
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For example, I got some print materials from Vegan Outreach in the mail today. They clearly stress the problems with factory farming, as does Meet Your Meat. What would you say to these materials?
I won't say anything, because I haven't seen these materials, but if someone from V.O. wants to stress factory farming, let them do it, but if they try to claim that a meat eating, fur wearing group of people going hunting in their holidays (but avoiding meat from factory farms) still could call themselves vegans, I'll assume it that they are paid by someone to post this nonsense, and put veganoutreach back on our list of censored words (which currently only contains one other word... :) )
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Are they giving people (maybe me) a false idea of what veganism is?
I've read some unbelievably silly stuff on V.O. before, but I haven't seen them claim that meat from certain animals is 'vegan meat'.... have you? One can stress the horrible stuff going on in lots of factory farms and still not claim that killing animals running in the woods is a 'vegan act'.
Veganism is going further than vegetarianism, and remember that when vegetarianism was born, factory farming didn't exist. Look here: What's in a name (definition of 'vegetarian')?
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Re: What do vegans have against quick, momentary killing of animals?
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Korn
Since you don't harm or kill an animal (or human) by eating someone killed by a car, you could theoretically be vegan and eat 'meat from a car accident', but I'd say that it's just as unlikely that you'll ever come across a vegan picking up a rabbit killed by a car and eat it that it is that you'll find a non-vegan eating meat from a human killed in a car crash - for reasons that go beyond logic and ethics.
On one side that is an interesting topic, because I wouldn't want a dead human or animal in my food, even if it was killed in a car accident (would you?), on the other hand, the animal wouldn't be harmed by being eaten (it was already killed in an accident), but I would personally still not eat it.
Do those reasons that go beyond logic and ethics include culture? Americans don't eat dogs or people because it's how they were raised. Some cultures do. If "it's how I was raised" isn't a good enough excuse to eat meat, maybe it's not a good enough excuse not to eat people. I'd eat a person or a dog if I had to, but I don't have to. I recognize that that logically extends to not eating animals because I don't have to. Roadkill too, for that matter, but again I'll probably never have a real reason to. What I mean to say is that drawing connections between humans and animals does not always work for me. But I think we may be getting far too tangled in hypothetical situations. I will look into the roadkill thread.
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Convert to... veganism? If they avoid meat from factory farms, and go hunting for animals 'who spent their life running and playing' in the weekends, they haven't converted to veganism, and if they register here to promote the ethicalness of hunting, we'll ban them (we've done that a couple of times already).
Please don't misunderstand me. I wasn't thinking of hunting at all; I think hunting is a sport for most people in the world (those who've ever been exposed to the concept of veganism anyway), not a method for survival, and I am opposed to killing for the fun of it. Again, "I don't have to hunt so I don't" extends to include "I don't have to eat animals so I don't." I'm really not trying to find a loophole for meat-eating, I'm just trying to figure out my personal feelings on the matter, without straying too far from the topic of the thread.
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By the way, did you find any vegan cookbooks with meat in it's recipes, meat from 'happy animals'? ;)
No, and I didn't bother, either! :p
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I won't say anything, because I haven't seen these materials, but if someone want to stress factory farming, let them do it. If they try to claim that a meat eating, fur wearing group of people going hunting in their holidays (but avoiding meat from factory farms) still could call themselves vegans, I'll assume it that they are paid by someone to post this nonsense, and put veganoutreach back on our list of censored words (which currently only contains one other word... :) )
I think I get your point. Thanks for the link. Do you think we can keep this up in private message? I'd like to keep going but it's not so relevant to the thread.
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Re: What do vegans have against quick, momentary killing of animals?
I have to agree that there can be different motivations for becomming vegan...even if you're doing it to impress somebody and you couldn't care less about animals, you're still vegan! but seriously, i think there's a difference between a vegan diet and a vegan lifestyle. afterall, what do you call a person who doesn't eat any animal products but will wear silk clothes? they fall somewhere in the spectrum between vegetarian and vegan, and since they fall closer to the vegan side of things it makes more sense they be considered vegan rather than vegetarian. and what about those who adhere to a vegan diet and lifestyle, but still wear leather/wool/silk that was purchased prior to their diet decision? according to the traditional definition, they wouldnt' be vegan. should we have a much more detailed spectrum of definitions for every possible variation in diet and lifestyle? perhaps...but why are we so hell bent on labeling everything anyway? it feels like just another way to separate us from one another.
i guess i just don't see why we have to be so possessive of the term. it's just a silly label afterall. with or without it we are going to continue living how we feel is best...i think we should be secure enough in our identities not to feel compelled to ban other ethical human beings from this self-perceived clique.
(and, for the record, i can find validity in almost everyone's arguments here...though personally i feel a part of veganism is respecting life by not ending it needlessly. i do, however, accept that some may disagree)
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Re: What do vegans have against quick, momentary killing of animals?
Hi Squirrel, I think the point is that even if I 'had to eat a person or a dog' I wouldn't! I would rather starve to death! The fact is if you are vegan you find it alien to want to consume another living being for any reason.
If I found myself, let's say, on a deserted island with nothing but another human or animal with me, I would sooner die from starvation than put their dead flesh, cooked or otherwise into my mouth and chew it, then swallow it (I'm going to be sick as I type).
That's the point! Don't you get it? Please tell me you get it?! o.k Squirrel let me know what you think. :)
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Re: What do vegans have against quick, momentary killing of animals?
Sandra, I think I understand your point of view, and you seem to also be saying you wouldn't eat flesh of any animal/human, dead by your doing or accidentally, even if the living creature offered itself to you. Is that correct?
(And a human could conceivably offer her/himself to you--I watched a documentary about some whalers lost at sea, and starving, who eventually drew lots on which one would sacrifice himself so they didn't every single one of them starve. He took the bullet without a struggle, and they ate him.)
See, I don't think eating meat is automatically disgusting, but I think I agree that is is wrong to kill and eat animals when you don't have to.
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Re: What do vegans have against quick, momentary killing of animals?
I would do the same Sandra, but i'd like to add that if a person was stranded on a deserted island with nothing to eat but a dog, and he ate the dog, i wouldn't necessarily find that morally wrong because in the end, humans are still animals and it is in our nature to do whatever is necessary for survival.
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Re: What do vegans have against quick, momentary killing of animals?
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sandra
The fact is if you are vegan you find it alien to want to consume another living being for any reason.
:)
Agree with you, Sandra - it's ALIEN to me to even think about consuming meat. It will NEVER be an option for me no matter what "logic" someone is trying to put into my head. Flesh, muscles, bones is no more food to me than dirt (actually I'd rather eat dirt!). Some meat eaters would probably do the same if they had to choose between eating dirt and a puppy or a kitten.... so maybe we can all understand each other after all.:confused:
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Re: What do vegans have against quick, momentary killing of animals?
Thanks Kriz, you and I think very much alike! :)
If I had been on the ship with those 'whaler's (perish the thought that I would even be on a 'whaling' ship) I still wouldn't eat flesh even if the person 'took the bullet without a struggle'. That whole scenario is like a scene from some kind of twisted Hell!
Nor would I think it is ok to eat a dog to survive. To give you an idea of how strongly I feel about this, it would be like someone very close to you dying and you eating their dead body! Would you do that? I really don't think you would, and if there are humans out there that would do that, I think they need some sort of counselling.
I think what I'm trying to convey here is that to me living off another being in any way is not food, and I know I would die if it came down to that.
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Re: What do vegans have against quick, momentary killing of animals?
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karmadust
why are we so hell bent on labeling everything anyway? it feels like just another way to separate us from one another.
i guess i just don't see why we have to be so possessive of the term. it's just a silly label afterall. with or without it we are going to continue living how we feel is best...i think we should be secure enough in our identities not to feel compelled to ban other ethical human beings from this self-perceived clique.
Interesting that you should say that as I was beginning to wonder why this debate was getting so "technical". Is it because Vegans feel sometimes that part of being Vegan is being prepared to continue to discuss a topic past the point of usefulness, in case we manage to enable others to see things a little differently, maybe reduce/stop meat consumption, and contributed to reducing suffering?
For me, being Vegan is about reducing suffering, having as little impact on the planet as possible. This means the planet itself which is suffering, and those that live on it. I do this out of respect for life. I would no more eat roadkill than my own grandmother. If she died naturally, then I could in theory eat her. She wouldn't know, she can hardly care because she's dead, she will serve no other function than to decay, one could even argue that not to eat her is a waste in the current lack of food this planet suffers. But I wouldn't out of respect. I think it's unusual to respect animals to this extent but Vegans do.
There is also now for me a squeamishness about putting a body part in my mouth and masticating, swallowing and adding it to my body make-up. That's often the sticking point for some meat eaters, who (in my experience) will tease a veg*an for not being "hard enough" to eat meat. Which does suggest that you do have to have fewer feelings to eat it, contradicting another meat eater argument that animals don't have feelings and souls so it doesn't matter.
But then I do find meat eaters often contradict themselves. Whereas Vegans don't feel the same need to talk about it because they are comfortable with what they're doing. Which suggests that perhaps meat eaters aren't? Why else do they keep trying to subscribe to forums like this and, genuinely or not, try to engage us in debate?
FYI some of the above has been touched on in the Since When Did Vegans Eat Chicken And Fish (or something) thread.
Sorry, that was along one but I could't seem to make it any shorter.
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Re: What do vegans have against quick, momentary killing of animals?
Has Vegan Forum become a place where non-vegans come to debate--and we debate them?
It basically comes down to: Animals have rights vs Animals have no rights. It's something that's either in your heart or not, and arguing will never make anyone change their mind unless they want to.
Please exuse me that I'm posting without reading the thread.
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Re: What do vegans have against quick, momentary killing of animals?
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John
Has Vegan Forum become a place where non-vegans come to debate--and we debate them?
Not the forum itself, but in this area - the Not A Vegan-section - non-vegans can post questions (but of course not promote meat eating/killing of animals). We have banned a few people who pretend to want to ask questions, but instead show that they only want a debate, but have no interest in anything vegan.
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Re: What do vegans have against quick, momentary killing of animals?
I see. Maybe it's selfish of me to want this site to be only for vegans and people who earnestly want to go vegan.
I guess I can see explaining to someone the basics of veganism but I just say, be careful not to get sucked into debates with people who do not even accept the basic premises of your point. Maybe I'm wrong and these ideas will brew in people's minds but that's what I think.
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Re: What do vegans have against quick, momentary killing of animals?
Selfish or not, I see your point. The only reason we have this section is that it seems that there are no (or few) other places for curios non-vegans who a drawn towards a vegan lifestyle to ask questions, but maybe offering this section here is a bad idea?
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Re: What do vegans have against quick, momentary killing of animals?
I agree with John and I think it is a bit selfish of us. As Korn says, someone might read these threads and start thinking. I hate reading these threads but I do from time to time in case I can help. Urgh! Why can't I just be selfish???
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Re: What do vegans have against quick, momentary killing of animals?
I think it's OK to have these debates as long as they're confined to this one section, so that people can avoid reading them if they want. They can be a bit repetitive though can't they?
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Re: What do vegans have against quick, momentary killing of animals?
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Re: What do vegans have against quick, momentary killing of animals?
Have you developed a little cut and paste library Korn for those sorts of enquiries?:p
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Re: What do vegans have against quick, momentary killing of animals?
No - I'm capable of repeating myself without technological help... :). I have pasted in excerpts from earlier replies a couple of times, but in most cases, posting a link to already existing threads do the trick. In the case of momentary killing of animals, I don't think we have a thread dedicated to that topic - but with 7-8000 threads, who knows...
Re. discussing with non-vegans in this section, we could probably change some settings, and make the Not A Vegan-section invisible for people who don't want to see it, but still leave it visible for newbies, occasional visitors and search engines.
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Re: What do vegans have against quick, momentary killing of animals?
Re: Vegans eating roadkill.
Some friends of a friend of a friend (yes, I know, bare with me) live (I think) in France, and are self sufficient. I don't know if they call themselves vegan, or vegetarian, but they were travelling some place and found a dead deer. It had just died (they probably saw the car accident), and decided that 'morally' it was okay to eat it (for various reasons).
I was asked on my stance on this, and I said for 1, that it was bloody disgusting. Point 2, that by removing that dead deer, you've taken it out of the food chain, so birds, maggots, flies, other mammals etc would have eaten that, but now can't. (I know you can argue the same thing with eating an apple).
Anyway, the took it home, cooked it, ate it...
...AND GOT REALLY, REALLY ILL!!! :D
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Re: What do vegans have against quick, momentary killing of animals?
Quote:
Korn
make the Not A Vegan-section invisible for people who don't want to see it, but still leave it visible for newbies, occasional visitors and search engines.
That would be good. Then I can pop in to see what's going on if I feel strong, otherwise I won't have to.
Purple, that last sentence made me laugh, even though the story was not so nice.
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Re: What do vegans have against quick, momentary killing of animals?
Serve them right Purple! There was someone on This Morning yesterday, he was a chef who ate roadkill! He was cooking some poor unfortunate squirrel he found dead. He said he was a vegetarian because he didn't eat anything deliberately killed to be eaten!
He's definitely not vegetarian if he eats any animal, but it just made me think, if a meat eater found a dead pig lying on the road they would probably be disgusted by it and not want to eat it. Why then is it any different from one that is killed somewhere else where they can't see it?
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Re: What do vegans have against quick, momentary killing of animals?
A chef who ate road kill?? OMFG! That's really disgusting Sandra :mad: Don't think I'll be eating in his restaurant :eek:
You're right about the omni's though - the majority (seriously I'd have to say over 98% of meat eaters) only eat meat because they're disassociated from the act of raising it and killing it.
Ask a meat eater to kill a cow and they won't have the guts. I know I wouldn't have when I ate meat.
-sigh-
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Re: What do vegans have against quick, momentary killing of animals?
That is so right Purple! Omni's just bury their heads in the sand, they don't want to confront what they are doing!