Veggies are no better than omnis really

Given the endless cycle of pain and suffering in the dairy and egg industries, eating what's left of the animal at the end of such a long process is less than a token gesture compared to the years of suffering that the vegetarian demand produced.

As you all know, cows that are eaten are largely spent dairy females, same for chicken being spent egg laying hens etc.

They're no better, they're deluded really, or at best ignorant (like I was for 5 years veggie before being vegan). I

You see, if people didn't eat meat the dairy and industry would still have the same demand,nothing would change. Sure they'd have more carcasses to deal with at the end of the process but the pain and suffering statistics would be the same.

I suppose there could be a small argument for marine and pork products as pigs are a stricter "omni abused" animals etc, but surely you have to be either "in" or "out" or, if you like, "cruel" or "kind" there's no grey area.

Veggies have carved a grey area where there isn't one.

I just can't take them seriously any more. When it comes to cruelty and suffering they're part of the problem, and a big part.

Nice weather for this time of year.

I have read this three times. What is the point you are making? Is it beat up on vegetarians because they are yet to evolve? It is a process, very few of us were fortunate to be raised in a vegan household.
Every time a person chooses not to eat meat it makes a difference. Eating dairy is hypocritical from a vegan perspective but many people still have the delusion of the cheerful cow called by name to milking.I know I did, denial is very strong. Getting cynical isn't going to encourage a vegetarian to listen. Eating dairy is not only addictive there is constant encouragement from powerful media forces.
:confused:

Very true, dairy and eggs kill & enslave animals same as meat does. There's no moral distinction I can see.

So sad when I hear vegetarians say "oh but I could never give up cheese".

The question is how best to break it to them?

Responding to " how to break them"...
I was a vegetarian for several months before going vegan. The decision was made once I watched the documentary "Forks Over Knives." It clearly drove home the point that dairy is harmful to the body and turns on cancer cells. Cancer is turned on by casein in dairy. Once I saw this film, i didn't want to touch dairy ever again. And I haven't looked back.
--- perhaps that film may help

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nathanjh13

When it comes to cruelty and suffering they're part of the problem, and a big part.

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Aye, it is vegetarians who 'licence' products of cruelty as being acceptable to the market 'meat-free' convenience foods too.

I would go as far as to say that in that way they are more of an obstacle to cruelty free foods becoming mainstream than even die hard omnis are.

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Farrview

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Every time a person chooses not to eat meat it makes a difference.

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Indeed it does. The difference being this ...

Meat eaters can claim the moral ground of providing their victims with short miserable lives and a terrifying death.

Dairy and egg consumers torture their victims with long(er) miserable lives and then a terrifying death.

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Johnstuff

Very true, dairy and eggs kill & enslave animals same as meat does. There's no moral distinction I can see.

So sad when I hear vegetarians say "oh but I could never give up cheese".

The question is how best to break it to them?

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The bolded bit is the bit I can't get over ...

How ducking fumb do you have to be to see that's no different to "oh but I could never give up bacon/steak/veal/pate foi gras/broiled baby panda on a bed of bamboo shoots/sucking the brains of live monkeys out of their ear holes with a straw", or whatever?

Your anger is palpable and you have reason to be horrified by the dairy industry. As someone who only recently got the point I can tell you that you would have upset me by your emotion not your convictions.
i was typical of many who thought they loved animals but continued to eat them, strange but very very common.
Most people have no idea of the suffering the cows go through...or choose not to and refusing to give up dairy because they love cheese is horribly hypocritical, no question. The media invest billions in fogging it all and we are culturally programmed as well. I was one of them.
However if someone is a vegetarian they have some awareness and are way further down the track than an omnivore. There is some level ground to have a more productive conversation.
i agree absoluely its no different it is just as ghastlly. Not sure what abusing them is going to achieve though.
It is only now having become vegan that my brain and life conditioning has cleared that I can see what you are saying.
I think your passion for this does you credit and it is one way things change, just not the only way.

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Farrview

Not sure what abusing them is going to achieve though.

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I find abuse to be a marvelous conversation starter with omnis/vegetarians. Works a bit like this ..

1. Abuse omni/vegetarian.

2. Omni/vegetarian temporarily feels empathic with abused more so than with his/her fellow abusers.

You now have a conversation in progress with omni/vegetarian explaining to you why and how abusing others is wrong.

Wouldn't have worked with me I would have seen vegan lifestyle as one that encourages a hostile attitude so not for me. A bit like when someone attempts to abuse me or bully me I assume they are sad insecure individuals that use put downs instead of dialogue.
I think robust debate is healthy and omnivores generally are not well informed so a fair target in the interests of changing the status quo. But I know some people enjoy fire in their discussions, you may be one of those.
One of the things I love about being vegan is an increased sense of peace and connectedness to the natural world.
on a bigger scale saving animals from abuse is more important, I think we need more fearless people like you, so please don't see my comments as critical, I am exploring the dimensions of this lifestyle and reading alot about it.

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Farrview

Wouldn't have worked with me I would have seen vegan lifestyle as one that encourages a hostile attitude so not for me. A bit like when someone attempts to abuse me or bully me I assume they are sad insecure individuals that use put downs instead of dialogue.
I think robust debate is healthy and omnivores generally are not well informed so a fair target in the interests of changing the status quo. But I know some people enjoy fire in their discussions, you may be one of those.
One of the things I love about being vegan is an increased sense of peace and connectedness to the natural world.
on a bigger scale saving animals from abuse is more important, I think we need more fearless people like you, so please don't see my comments as critical, I am exploring the dimensions of this lifestyle and reading alot about it.

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There's kindness combined with great wisdom there, Farrview. (I'd give you an 'I'm not worthy' smilie here but we don't seem to have one).

Just for chit-chat allow me a little ramble that leads to a point?

In my days as a high-pressure salesman our team had both real 'hard hitters' (my group) and some nice gentlefolky types. The team needed both types to function effectively. One group could sell to one mindset of customer and the other to another. Neither group alone could sell to both mindsets of customer.

What we did was this:

1. If the gentlefolky salespeople were failing to close a customer down then we pulled them off the job and sent a hard-hitter in to close the deal down.

2. If a hard-hitter failed to close a deal we would send a gentlefolky type in to get negotiations back underway again.

The 'mop up' rate we achieved with that 'two pronged' strategy was quite amazing.

The hard hitters and the gentlefolky types working together was definitely one of those "The whole is greater than the sum of it's parts" kinda things.

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Farrview

Wouldn't have worked with me ....

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The only people that doesn't work on are those who's own arguments as to why abusing others is wrong fail to convince themselves.

I'm not denying that that's one hell of a lot of people, mind!

Hmm I was married to a sales pit bull at one time ( still am but he changed jobs..lol)
in the eighties selling IT very high pressure.
I am familiar with the sales tactics. As an omnivore I would have refused to engage and removed myself from the debate. Mainly because I am sure my own hypocrisy would have become rapidly evident!

I am appalled when I reflect on my blind refusal to face what my meat and dairy habits were costing in terms if suffering and my own health. Omnivores know that the cows in the field are related to that nights steak but wilfully look away. So OK. go for it maybe if I had met you I would have been called on it earlier.
I guess because I was one of those you are so angry with I have some compassion. Then I remember watching beagles feel grass for the first time and bought free range eggs and I thought that was ethical, it is embarassing now to write I was such a nit.:confused:

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Farrview

As an omnivore I would have refused to engage and removed myself from the debate. Mainly because I am sure my own hypocrisy would have become rapidly evident!

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You have a refreshing honesty Farrview. I like that :)

You've also hit a major benefit of going in hard right on the head there.

It is a fast and effective way of getting the 'I already know and I've already decided's out of conversations.

That's efficient. It leaves more time to deal with the 'I haven't thought this through properly's and other flavours of 'floating voters'.

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I guess because I was one of those you are so angry with I have some compassion.

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Buddhism defines compassion as the desire for all living beings to have happiness, to be free of suffering and it's causes.

The ultimate cause of suffering, basicaly, is ignorance.

In that way a major measure of the depth of a persons compassion is their passion for dispelling ignorance.

Passion can easily be confused with anger.

I see ovo-veggies as carnists. Eggs are most definitely animal matter. I consider them meat, even though they aren't muscles or organs. I think non-vegan vegetarians want to get credit for their step towards health, environmentalism, and/or animal rights, without giving up cakes and donuts and cheese.

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Elixa Lovegood

I see ovo-veggies as carnists. Eggs are most definitely animal matter. I consider them meat, even though they aren't muscles or organs. I think non-vegan vegetarians want to get credit for their step towards health, environmentalism, and/or animal rights, without giving up cakes and donuts and cheese.

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You have a serious point. I was fortunate that I went vegan without the step in between, then I saw the videos which simply consolidated a decision already made. When I am offered non vegan choices I look at them and think I refuse to let any more animals suffer for my appetite. It is like a switch went in my head and now I cannot see why it took so long. I loved cheese like many others and now understand it was highly addictive due to the concentrated casein.
I don't see them particularly wanting credit so much as assuaging their conscience thinking they are kinder than an omnivore. Delusions, I had them may still, the point is I won't know unless someone points them out. I can feel myself developing a passion for this lifestyle, it is amazing.

I somehow have a hard time to understand vegetarians, who are concerned about animals' well-being, who understand that egg and dairy production cause cruelty to animals but refuse to give it up.

I was vegetarian myself for 20 years, because I did not know better. Once I read "Eating Animals" and found out about eggs and dairy, I went vegan ... that week. Everything else did not make sense to me. And I used to eat *lots* of cheese before that.

Best regards,
Andy

It is my observation after 4 months that people trying to go vegan are often thoroughly addicted to dairy products and eggs are used in many many recipes.
I like you stopped eating them abruptly, for me the whole thing done at the sane time. However the addiction to dairy is so much like when I gave up smoking years ago. Every now and again I get a real pang. I am not particularly socially driven but many are and its a problem having and active social life when vegan, takes conscious effort and organisation to resort. I go anywhere and 90% of the food is unavailable to me and I am not fond of lettuce salads. I choose to make the effort as I am totally committed but at times it is hard.
If a would be vegan does not recognise their addictions and is not informed about the weird ways the body changes ( not to mention how candida can cause big issues ) when going vegan they would find it challenging. I joined a FB page called the Vegan Challenge as a support while I made the jump, helped alot.
When I gave up smoking there were people I avoided until I got solid, same with going vegan. Its more than the food.

I was 18 when I went vegan. Before that, I was a vegetarian trying to eat as little animal products as I could for eight months until I went vegan full time. I think it's a process, but I was very clear from the beginning that I wanted to stop supporting any form of animal abuse. In America, there are so many vegan options everywhere, so it sholdnt be that hard for a vegetarian to go vegan. In other countries with less vegan options I can understand the process if the goal is veganism.

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sokken

I was 18 when I went vegan. Before that, I was a vegetarian trying to eat as little animal products as I could for eight months until I went vegan full time. I think it's a process, but I was very clear from the beginning that I wanted to stop supporting any form of animal abuse. In America, there are so many vegan options everywhere, so it sholdnt be that hard for a vegetarian to go vegan. In other countries with less vegan options I can understand the process if the goal is veganism.

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I went vegan from omnivore overnight and have stayed vegan for almost four years now, happily. I never understood vegetarianism that involved still eating eggs and dairy. However, it has not always been so easy to find vegan items. I traveled by airplane and then was driven by someone to a very poor part of the U.S., along the gulf coast in Texas, to stay with some inlaws who were doing missionary work near the border of Mexico. I had to find a grocery store to stock up on vegan food for the week. The first grocery store had a produce section smaller than a walk in closet. There were no plain oats, no dried or canned beans, only processed to death nuts/seeds with sugar and gelatin in them. Almost the whole store was junk food and highly processed items. no soy milk available. Thankfully my driver was willing to travel twenty miles to another grocery store that was larger and had more of a selection. There I was able to find simple staples like beans, rice, oats, vegetables and fruits (I went in March and farm stands were not out yet). It is not uncommon in poor areas for stores to stock up on junk food and not have simple decent food available. With so many people claiming to be too busy for cooking and food prep, companies are focusing more and more on highly processed convenience foods because that is what people want or can afford (especially really poor people and homeless who do not have access to kitchens and work 14 hour shifts). Though beans, oats, and rice are dirt cheap, they also require some prep work and sadly a lot of people have no clue what to do with them or claim they don't have time to prepare them (though oats takes little time to prepare).

Even where I live now there is not a huge selection of vegan food and far less of a selection of vegan friendly clothing, shoes, cleaning products etc. I live very simply and do not use commercial shampoos or cleaners (I use stuff like lemon juice and vinegar for cleaning and pure essential oils, vinegar, and castile/coconut soap for personal care and hair, and I do not wear makeup and in my 42 years rarely have). But I am ever thankful for the internet and ability to order online (most of my vegan shoes came from ordering ethical ware online especially my hemp hiking shoes as locally leather and suede abound). I rarely eat out but the half dozen times a year I do, there are not any vegan/vegetarian restaurants here (those are mostly in the large cities yet) but thankfully there are usually a token few items available for vegans and vegetarians at a few mainstream restaurants. There is a pizza restaurant that caters to vegans where I live and offers vegan pizzas with vegan friendly crust and Daiya or nut cheese. It really is not easy to have a social life as a vegan where I live yet, but I am not a hugely social person anyway. I would not trade being vegan for convenience and a more social life etc. I am vegan for strong ethical reasons and also enjoy the health benefits. Though in that regard I face my own challenges with established osteoporosis I battle (lost my ovaries nine years ago and battled an eating disorder for eight years).

I am also in the camp that feels that vegetarianism is not much better than being omnivore if one continues to eat eggs, dairy, and buy wool and leather etc. However, the majority of vegans come to it via vegetarianism and it is a sort of transitional stepping stone so I am not going to judge others who are not pure vegan yet. I am going to encourage them in their efforts to get to veganism. I will never support the use of eggs and dairy though. I still call people out on the whole happy humane backyard raise my own rescued hen but take her eggs bit. Or the raw milk drinkers and so on. I often point people to sites like "The Humane Myth".