:) Thanks for all the points everyone. Much appreciated.
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Well, I've never heard of a feather being reused by a bird or manure by a cow, but occasionally a hen eats her eggs. That's good enough for me, it is very healthy for them.
Hmm. When my cat throws up, I find it ethically acceptable to clear away his vomit, or, if it is in the garden, bury it. However if left he will occasionally eat it. As far as I'm concerned, this doesn't make it unethical to clear it away.
Plus, what when the hens won't eat their eggs? You have to clear it away. Surely if you're going to take it away from the hen anyway, you may as well eat it?
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Who wants to eat part of a chicken's reproductive system anyway? In principal it's no different from eating a human egg that will turn into a baby as well. I think it's disgusting a sick to eat any form of eggs even if the animals are treated well. I also think that people who see it as 'normal' need pyschological help.
You're eating a chicken's period actually, unfertilised in this instance (From rescue hens) and just because the idea is revolting, doesn't mean it's morally objectionable. :)
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If someone is eating truly cruelty-free, cage-free eggs, free (as in no dollar amount) eggs that do not exploit the animals, I have no complaints, but they certainly are not vegan. Vegans do NOT eat animal products.
Yes, but why not? I mean, vegans don't just avoid eggs simply because they want to fit into a definition- or do they? Is there an ethical reason not to? If not, if they're just doiing it just because, it seems pretty pointles- like who would be a vegan? Personally I think eating eggs from rescue hens is defensible as a vegan (though Kelzie doesn't so don't pin that on her! :D ), for reasons explained previously, with the vegan society's definition.
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If a laying hen is rescued from a farm, then I would like to think they would be put in the most natural environment possible, to help them recover and feel comfortable. It just seems like leaving them their eggs and letting nature take care of that helps a hen to establish her living space. I may be thinking of another animal, but I'm pretty sure hens are very picky about keeping things in order. It just seems like taking thier eggs disrupt that.
I've been trying to learn more about hens, and it seems that when a hens eggs, fertilized or unfertilized, are taken away, this stimulates her to lay more and more eggs. Laying more eggs can cause a bird to lose more calcium and other nutrients than they normally would, and an increased laying rate apparantly shortens a birds life span. I'm going to see what else I can find out.
Regardless of whether they are eaten or not, wouldn't the eggs be removed at some point anyway? Once this occurs, why not eat them?
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Does rescuing chickens help end chicken slavery?
It does for the individual chickens, but not for chickens as a whole.
Chickens, like cows, have been bred to be much more 'productive' than their wild ancestors, and their behaviour patterns are 'unnatural'. Obviously, in the wild there would be many more males, and the hens' eggs would be fertilised, so they would sit on a clutch to hatch them out. They wouldn't lay a new egg every day. That is a perversion of natural behaviour brought about by their human domination, through selective breeding, or 'eugenics' as it's otherwise known.
Personally, I'd like to see all human domination of other animal species become a thing of the past, like slavery. I think that it would really be better if the human-manipulated farm animals eventually became extinct, so wild animals could flourish again.
I don't want to depend on them in any way, or partake of their 'produce'. I want to see a free world.
Why eat eggs if you don't have to?
True. But rescue hens have been forced into that position by others and are now being cared for by vegan-y types. Do you know what I mean? It's not as if they've been deliberately bred that way by those who are keeping them- it's just that once you've rescued them, what are you supposed to do? You can't 'un-selectively breed' them. You can allow them to die out, but in the meanwhile you have to take care of them, and while you are doing this, what is the harm in eating the eggs they lay?
As for 'why if you don't have to'- what I'm asking is why not. :)
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I don't think vegans (true ones, I mean) consider eating eggs, really. They don't want animal products, in general, unless they're throwing their veganism out the window.
So I've been told- but what I'm asking is why not- what is their reason for not eating eggs apart from just the 'no animal products' rule- what's the ethics behind it? After all, no one on this forum just woke up and thought 'I know! It'd be fun to give up eating animal products!' You all considered the issues of animals being tortured, killed, and exploited for our own ends, in short the ethics, and you decided you couldn't partake in those industries- so you stopped. Do you get me? What's the ethical reasoning behind not eating the eggs from rescue hens?
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So to begin with this was hypothetical but now you are speaking as if you are presently eating Rescue eggs and want to hear some reason to stop before you will.
It seems to me as if you are trying to use the ethics of rescue hen eggs to justify or rationalise eating less ethically produced eggs, but this may just be the way you are coming across. Certainly, what you have said is now contradictory.
Sorry, yeah. That's my fault. I haven't found any local hen rescue centres giving away eggs in the last day and I haven't been looking :D - I just thought it was easier to say 'I need to know before I stop eating the eggs' than saying 'before I decide that it would be unethical to eat the eggs should I hypothetically come across a place that keeps rescue chickens, and be offered eggs by the carers.'
And I would never ever even dream of eating eggs from any kind of profit-making industry- ever. :eek: I wouldn't want to justify that, I'd want to condemn it. That's definitely not what I'm about. If I came across that way, I can only apologise and state that I would never want to do that.
Sorry for any confusion. :)
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In the same way that vegetarians don;t eat meat as long as it's roadkill, vegans don;t eat eggs.
I don't exactly get what you mean there, but it seems to me that you're saying eating eggs from rescue hens would be like eating road kill?
Well when I was arguing with myself over this I brought this point up and my conclusion was that I wouldn't eat road kill because I'd feel it was disrespectful to the life of that animal- like when my cat brings in dead mice, I prefer to bury them in the garden than throw them in the bin, because you know. I wouldn't eat the dead body of anything even though it's not causing suffering- it's just not respectful.
However I think eating the waste product from a living animal is a different matter. Eggs are different from milk and meat in that respect (and in all others:D)- milk isn't a waste product, meat is a body, but eggs? Eggs are not needed by the chicken or anyone else. I think that's why this issue's come up and is different to any of the other vegan boycotts in terms of the ethics surrounding it.
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I was thinking about this last night; it seems as though hens do not know if their eggs are fertilized or not, since they seem to try and hatch them regardless (from what I have read). Couldn't that mean that maybe when she discovers her unfertilized eggs missing, she feels like her children are being stolen?
That's interesting, and sounds like a sad by-product of the 'eugenics' kokopelli was talking about. :( However, wouldn't that mean that leaving the egg there encourages the hen to think her child has died? After all the egg is never going to hatch, wouldn't that cause distress too?
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The website also says "vegan lifestyles - that is, ways of living that seek to exclude, as far as is possible and practical, all forms of exploitation of animals for food, clothing or any other purpose".
Yeah, and I guess what we are debating here is whether these eggs are exploitation of the chickens. If not, then it is still vegan to eat them- if yes, obviously it is unvegan. Once I am convinced it is exploitative I will agree that it goes against the definition of vegan- but if it isn't exploitative I don't see how it goes against that definition. :)
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By accepting that eating "free range" eggs is OK, you have to accept that drinking "free-range milk" is OK, too. Then you of course have, "free range" wool and, finally, "free range" meat. Accepting "free-range"/"more humane" you are setting a precedent for further animal use and whenever there is animal use, there is animal abuse. So in order to prevent any kind of abuse, you have to abjure the use.
I'd just like to back up what Kelzie said- there is no 'have to' about it. I'm sorry, but to me this argument is on a par with the omni one about 'but plants feel pain too!' there's just a massive difference between eating a waste product, such as a chicken's menstrual period, to consuming the milk produced by a mother cow, for her calf. Even if there wasn't there would still be the issue of where is the mother's calf- how come you've got the milk to drink, why doesn't the calf have it, and from then- well you know all the deal about the dairy industry already! :)
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The point is that seeing any part of any animal as food is leading to exploitation. If someone believes that animals aren't here to produce food for us, then no part of their body is ours to eat, whether they need it or not.
Do the eggs need to be eaten just because they are there ?
No, they don't need to be eaten, but why not?
The idea about it leading to exploitation is interesting, perhaps you are concerned the whole cycle could start again- chickens get rescued, people eat eggs from rescue chickens, someone thinks- hey this could make me a pretty penny.
Thing is, even if this alleyway was open, 1. Would someone who thought like that about animals really be involved with rescue hens? 2. Would those taking care of the hens allow that person to breed more so that they could profit from the eggs?
I think the answers to both those questions are no, so although this is an interesting argument it is similar to the slippery slope. If you feel that eating eggs from rescue hens would lead to you seeing animals as commodities, here to produce food for us, and so possibly lead you towards the eating of flesh, dairy, or other unethical products- obviously it would be wrong for you to eat eggs. However if you know it would not lead you to think in this way, I see no ethical problem. Therefore I think it is for the individual vegan to decide. :)
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These eggs are from chickens that are kept. They aren't free to go, are they ? Why do animals, and in this case chickens, need to be kept. Obviously they weren't always kept. The chickens in question don't know any better, ok rescue chickens will know worse, but not having known anything better does not excuse why these chickens need to be kept, and there eggs eaten just because they are there.
I agree word for word with what Kelzie said here:
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I agree that the desirable outcome of the chicken breed that we have created would be to let them die off naturally. However, turning rescue hens out into the wild is a death sentence. They can't fly because of the breeding modifications, and most probably would have been debeaked. So in this, hypothetical case, the chickens have to be kept so they can survive.
:)
^Apologies to all if any of the above sounded arsey, pompous, or know-it-all. I think some people have recently joined the thread so you may not fully understand where I'm working from- I don't wish to undermine anyone, just gain more insight from knowledgeable vegans. And for me, questions and debate are the best way to do this. :)