I don't agree with all her viewpoints, but the article brings up some interesting thoughts....
http://www.roylretreat.com/articles/b12.html
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I don't agree with all her viewpoints, but the article brings up some interesting thoughts....
http://www.roylretreat.com/articles/b12.html
Seems like she makes sense. There seems to be too much conflicting information out there.
Vegans in India don't seem to supplement and they don't seem to have b12 deficiencies.
The following site claims b12 deficiency to be a myth as well:
http://www.pamrotella.com/health/b12.html
The more I read articles like the following, that makes a hell of a lot of sense, it makes me question supplementation and the usefulness of it:
http://www.living-foods.com/articles/b12issue.html
I used to buy a vegan multi-vitamin, and haven't bought or had any in over two months. The author of that article states that the energy you feel from taking high doses of vitamins is nothing more than your body trying to expel the toxins produced when taking such synthetic vitamins. Personally, I've felt more drained popping vitamin pills than when I didn't take them. Out of the six plus years of being vegan, I only supplemented with multi-vitamins four years in, and it was the last two years. I don't plan on popping unnecessary pills any longer. I do occasionally eat fortified foods such as Luna or Clif bars, and the soymilk I buy is fortified, but seriously, a healthy diet is going to provide you with every thing you need including the production of your own b-12. The article I've linked states that adding synthetic vitamins to your diet causes more harm than good and the body doesn't absorb them anyway. To me that makes perfect sense. Eating an adequet amount of raw foods on a daily basis seems like the best option.
Unless like many people ,including meat eaters, your body hasn't got the ability to manufacture it by itself, then to avoid serious illness you need supplimentation. Believe me the symptoms are unpleasant if you don't have enough B12. Having been through this. I think regular checks on levels can't hurt.
Treehugga (or anybody else),
Could you recommend any widely available vegan B12 supplements available in Australia? It would be nice to have a few brands to look out for instead of going in blind!
Diana
akaredarcher
Diana I have my levels checked with a blood test about every 4 years and usually have about 3 injections if B12 is low. The reason for this is that my gut doesn't absorb it properly so tablets aren't useful, this is true for a number of people. I think a good multivitamin should contain enough to keep your levels up, you don't need much. I think everyone should have their levels checked because I believe (rightly or wrongly) that the main reson for low levels may not be a vegan diet but the capacity for the gut to absorb B12. My GP suggested this is relatively common, even in meateaters, but often goes unrecognised until major health issues present. People who drink heavily also often have pernicious amnemia.
Quote:
treehugga
would it be too personal for you to describe what happened treehugga?? pm me if you like.
Blackmoors and Golden glow B12 (in Aust) are vegan.
Not at all. I have in fact, discussed it at length on the B12 thread for those with deficiencies.Quote:
cedarblue
People particularly at risk are those with problems with their lower intestines, those with chrones or coeliac disease. people who may consume large amounts of alcohol or medication (drugs) and I fit into the last catagory, those who do not secret enough of the special factor for B12 absorbtion.
My GP explained to me that it is becoming more common as an evalutionary issue due to diet, that we are losing out ability to absorb B12. Possibly things like sugar, carbonate and highly refined food are having an impact, I would imagine. But basically we consume much less dirt and bacteria these days- we're too hygienic. I think I've heard the same thing re appendixes, we used to need them to absorb nutriements from grasses etc, but this is becoming obsolete now.
Anyway, I'm going on a bit. My symptoms were very poor memory, intense fatigue, feeling pale sick and dizzy, lots of headaches/migraine. I thought I was getting dementia or something and I was only 38. I had no energy and has severe anxiety.
I'm really fit and healthy now though.
The liver, muscles and blood of an animal or human is like a bank used to store/tranpsort B12. 'Robbing' that bank (eating meat) means that we'll get access to the B12 stored in it, so meat eaters normally have higher B12 levels than vegans (but look at this link). Inability to absorb B12 due to intrinsic factor-issues are more common among meat eaters (seen in relation to the total number of meat eaters) than among vegans, due to their higher B12 intake. But I do agree that it's good to have B12 levels checked - for everyone, vegan or not - unless you are totally confident that your levels are good. If they are not, 4 years between each B12/MMA/homocysteine test may actually be too long...Quote:
treehugga
Yes I would rather be safe than sorry.
How often do you have your levels checked? Would every 2 years or even 12 months be better? I was tested 2 years ago & was fine. I could get tested every week & it wouldn't bother me - I don't mind needles. Reminds me I should look into donating blood again when I get back to Sydney. :)Quote:
Korn
Diana
akaredarcher
By Blackmore's do you mean their B complex or a 'plain' B12?Quote:
insubordination
Diana
akaredarcher
Every 4 years should be fine. It takes a long time to run low on B12 unless you have an illness etc.Quote:
akaredarcher
I think you misunderstand. How long time it takes to run low on B12 depends on a lot of things; most of all which levels you have to begin with (there are millions of non-vegans with low B12 levels) and dozens of lifestyle related issues. Many vegans may have had too low B12 levels even before they considered going vegan, and/or live in a way that will deplete they small reserves very fast.
Did you get a reply to your questions? I get Blackmore's Stress Formula B (I'm not stressed but I like the ingredients of that product.Quote:
akaredarcher
I'm talking about after having the B12 injections or after blood tests to check levels. This is what the medical profession recommend, well they have to me anyway. B12 should last in the system for at least several years unless their are other variables such as illness or drug use etc. For an average healthy person every 4 years is suggested and this has certainly worked well for me, but if you were stressed or concerned just have your levels checked yearly.Quote:
Korn
I don't think "i" misunderstand having had a deficiency and needing regular boosts of B12 I think it is useful for others to share my example and info. You did originally requests info from those who had/have a deficiency and that is what I'm doing. It is also important for people to know it may not be just down to diet and to have levels checked re of supplimentation via tablets.Quote:
Korn
Hi Treehugga, if you have been told that your B12-injections will give you B12 enough to last for 4 years, that's fine, because that info is taylor made for your situation. What I wanted to emphasize is that taking B12-tests every four years may not be enough for others, and that there can't possibly be one set amount of months or years that are valid for everyone.Quote:
I'm talking about after having the B12 injections or after blood tests to check levels.
There are actually many cases where the medical profession recommends oral B12 supplementation. I have posted a link somewhere to an article about this: recent finding have shown that oral supplementation actually work in many conditions where they thought injections would be needed. But I'm not for giving general advice, and that's why I think it's important to let people with a possible B12 deficiency know that the info found at some sites ("if you have been a meat eater, you'll have enough B12 for 3-5 years, so don't worry") may be a potential very dangerous advice to give. How long you are safe after a treatment with injections depends on your level before the injections and how much B12 they will give you. I find it likely that someone will get sued one day after having said that 'you are safe for 3-4 years' or 'vegans are safe if they eat B12 fortified food', because this general advice can lead to disaster for a number of people.Quote:
This is what the medical profession recommend, well they have to me anyway.
I totally agree.Quote:
t is also important for people to know it may not be just down to diet and to have levels checked re of supplimentation via tablets.
I'm not afraid of being sued. I have checked out a lot of research and it all has suggested that it takes a long time to use up B12 levels unless you have the other variables I have previously listed. I am more concerned about people spouting about tablet supplimentation which can often be unreliable, as is my own case.
I had been taking B12 supplimentation for years (Blackmores) and my levels were extremely low (the Dr asked if I had a drinking problem they were so low and I don't drink alcohol at all). They came straight back up with the injections and stay up as long as I'm boosted every 4 years. I know of serveral other cases and all are treated effectively in this manner. But again , if unsure have more regular checks.
Well, you wouldn't be sued for sharing your views anyway. But a leader of health institution or a doctor who gives false advice on internet ('I don't know what your B12 levels are or anything about your lifestyle, but there's no need to take B12 tests for you for x years') may get problems. People who already are low in B12 have no long-lasting reserves.Quote:
I'm not afraid of being sued. I have checked out a lot of research and it all has suggested that it takes a long time to use up B12 levels unless you have the other variables I have previously listed.
There are many reasons that oral B12 supplementation of various kinds would be useful, but there are also many examples that oral B12 supplementation would be of no real help. General advice given based on a specific cases may or may not apply to others...Quote:
I had been taking B12 supplimentation for years (Blackmores) and my levels were extremely low (the Dr asked if I had a drinking problem they were so low and I don't drink alcohol at all).
Here are some other articles by Dr. Vetrano:
http://www.rawfoodexplained.com/why-...tamin-b12.html
http://www.rawfoodexplained.com/why-...-b12-hoax.html
http://www.rawfoodexplained.com/why-...tamin-b12.html
I still think she exaggerates and is inaccurate (maybe the article is old?), but still has some interesting information...
This is one of the most utter nonesense I have read in a long time. And I will not address or even attempt to refute it because it is simply laughable.Quote:
Korn
If you want to communicate, please communiate. If you want to attack the messages posted here for being laughable nonsense without explaining why, you are not communcating, you are attacking. Attacks are boring.
Actually I wasn't attacking, though I agree it is very easy for you, who posted the link in a supporting manner, to interpret it as an attack. I was just expressing my dissent, the same way you expressed your support without justifying it any further. I did the same thing you did, only on the other side of the coin so to say, no offense intended.Quote:
Korn
I will address, in future, more on the issue because I have accumulated what I think is a considerable wealth of information on B12. I will weave it into responses to posts rather than write monolithic essays.
You didn't say that you disagreed with her or why you did so, you just posted that what she wrote was 'laughable' and 'nonsense', which isn't really interesting unless you want to tell us why, is it?
I can't remember having said that I support her viewpoints, on the contrary - in addition to saying that she brings up some interesting thoughts - I said that she exaggerates, is inaccurate and I have been talking about how I do not agree in all her viewpoints, plus I suggest that the articles seem old (read: they contain outdated info or '"info"). That's not being supportive, that's only what I claim it to be: saying that she brings up some interesting thoughts in spite of the issues I mention.Quote:
you expressed your support
If you want to discuss, great, and if you have accumulated a considerable wealth of information on B12 - brilliant. It's so much better to share that info than to only post your conclusions about 'laughable' and 'nonsense'... that adds as little value to the B12 discussion as to claim the the only way to source B12 naturally by eating your own faeces or that faeces is rich in bioavailable B12 - as if that was correct or relevant (without even trying to back these staements up with facts), like you did in another thread earlier tonight. "Conclusionism" is the last thing we need!
I stumbled upon one of Vivian V. Vetrano's article again (here: http://vegan.volblog.at/?itemid=14635) today, and I'm still interested in background for her opinions.
Some examples:
To me this looks both like a theory very few people will agree in, but also: it looks like a theory only. Maybe what she describes would have been correct 1000 years ago, but today, we have to face that lots of lifestyle and environmental issues causing plants to contain less B12 (and other nutrients) than they used to.Quote:
There is no such thing as a B12 deficiency, even in 100% raw vegan food eaters. They do not have to eat dirt, animal products, or take pills to secure coenzymes of B12. Bacteria in the intestinal tract make it for us, and the metabolically usable and necessary forms of coenzyme B12 are contained in unprocessed, fresh natural plant foods, particularly in nuts and seeds.
If this would be correct, why is it them more common that vegans have lower levels of B12 than meat eaters?Quote:
The real problem in so-called B12 deficiency is a failure of digestion and absorption of foods, rather than a deficiency of the vitamin itself.
Vitamin B12 is found in a lot of plants (we have a subforum dedicated to this topic), but to claim that B12 exist eg. in nuts without documenting it makes it look like an assumption, not a fact... The main problem is of course also that B12 in itself isn't the problem, it's the bio-availablity of the B12 (and absorption, of course),Quote:
Vitamin B12 coenzymes are found in nuts and seeds as well as in many common greens, fruits, and many vegetables.
Again... documentation? What B12 levels can we expect from carrots and green peas, and what are the sources for this info?Quote:
If we ate 100 grams of green beans, beets, carrots, and peas we would have half of our so-called daily minimum requirement of Vitamin B12 coenzymes providing our digestion and absorption are normal.
We discuss this in this thread, which is based on findings about up to 0,5 mcg B12 being produced in the mouth, which is a relatively low number given that most people consume a lot of 'B12 killers' daily...Quote:
A little publicized source of active Vitamin B12 coenzymes is from bacteria in the mouth, around the teeth, in the nasopharynx, around the tonsils and in the tonsilar crypts, in the folds at the base of the tongue, and in the upper bronchial tree. This source alone will supply sufficient quantities of Vitamin B12 coenzymes for the very small requirement of total vegetarians, especially considering that their needs for this vitamin are not as great as for those on conventional diets.
I'd like to read more about this.... sources?Quote:
Furthermore, absorption of the natural B12 coenzymes can take place in the mouth, throat, esophagus, bronchial tubes and even in the upper small intestines, as well as all along the intestinal tract. This does not involve the complex enzyme mechanism for absorption (intrinsic factor) in the small intestine as required by cyanocobalamin. The coenzymes are absorbed by diffusion by mucuous membranes.
Old thread, yes, maybe some of you still remember the discussion..
I just read Dr Vivian's "article", it does sound scary if you believe all you read..
I'm not going to get into the "whether our body produces enough B12 to satisfy our needs" issue, but I'm wondering about how poisenous are the pills we are taking? CYANIDE in our pills??
ever since I went vegan 1.5 years ago, I was taking B12 Sublingual pills on a regular basis..since it's Sublingual, I think I'm not encountering the "absorption through digestion problem" since it goes straight into your blood if taken in sublingual manner.
What do you guys think?
Do you take B12 pills?
my recent blood tests show no problem with B12 but I was taking a lot of it recently..
Also, I've read somwhere that:
"A blood B12 level measurement is a very unreliable test for vegans, particularly for vegans using any form of algae. Algae and some other plant foods contain B12-analogues (false B12) that can imitate true B12 in blood tests while actually interfering with B12 metabolism. Blood counts are also unreliable as high folate intakes suppress the anaemia symptoms of B12 deficiency that can be detected by blood counts. Blood homocysteine testing is more reliable, with levels less than 10 mmol/litre being desirable. The most specific test for B12 status is methylmalonic acid (MMA) testing. If this is in the normal range in blood (<370 nmol/L) or urine (less than 4 mg /mg creatinine) then your body has enough B12. Many doctors still rely on blood B12 levels and blood counts. These are not adequate, especially in vegans"
So I dont know if the blood tests showed my real condition..
Check this tread:Quote:
Vegan_Power
If you take B12 supplements, what do you take?
"A blood B12 level measurement is a very unreliable test for vegans, particularly for vegans using any form of algae. Algae and some other plant foods contain B12-analogues (false B12) that can imitate true B12 in blood tests while actually interfering with B12 metabolism". [/quote]
Some people write about B12 analogues as if they only appear in vegan food, and not are something that's regularly found in our body, in non-vegan food and even have been reported found in multivitamins.... Not that the analogue/non-analogue discussion isn't important; not at all, it's just not as simple as some people suggest that it is.
We have a thread about homocysteine and B12/heart disease hereQuote:
The most specific test for B12 status is methylmalonic acid (MMA) testing.
Here's our MMA thread...Quote:
The most specific test for B12 status is methylmalonic acid (MMA) testing.
Studies on 'normal' people show that a large amount of the B12 found in their blood are so called B12 analogues - this isn't something vegan specific, so remember that any test that shows the B12 levels in non-vegans most likely shows the sum of active, bioavailable B12 and inactive B12 analogues.Quote:
These are not adequate, especially in vegans"
BTW, cyanide occurs naturally in some food.
More links about cyanide:
http://books.google.com/books?id=LM1...um=5&ct=result
http://www.eoearth.org/article/Publi...nt_for_Cyanide
Thank for the links..there's enough reading material here to keep you busy through a nuclear war(:
I found today that Vivian Vetrano has written a new text, released as a Kindle-book on Amazon. She still insists that one doesn't need animal products to get enough B12, at least in theory, but also that she takes B12 supplements and that "Let it be known that B12 deficiency is very real". In the text this thread is about, she wrote that "There is no such thing as a B12 deficiency, even in 100% raw vegan food eaters."
The new text is also more detailed when it comes to referring to her sources. Among the studies she mentions, one is the one from the Linus Pauling Institute which states that individuals who supplemented with folic acid were found to have the highest rate of decrease in their blood homocysteine levels /which is good): 25% decrease. Individuals who co-supplemented with B12 were found to have an additional 7% decrease (a 32% decrease).
Vegans usually have better folic acid levels than omnivores, and omnivores today usually have higher levels of B12 than vegans. So it seems that while it's important that vegans ensure that they have enough B12, it's even more important for bob-vegans to ensure that they have enough B9.
In the new Kindle-book she also refers to an (old?) source claiming eg. that while plums, pears and apples are not conscious in terms of B vitamin levels, coconut cake, oranges and lemons contain large quantities. This is brought up based on the concept that wherever B vitamins are found ("B complex"), there is B12. But if there are relevant/good levels of B12 in coconuts/oranges/lemons, why aren't these documented? Is it only because the procedure for measuring B12 in food requires heating to such a high temperature than the B12 is destroyed in the very process of measuring B12? A lot more research is needed on this.
She also mentions an old study where an experiment none of us want to use as a reference for how to get B12 demonstrated that there is enough active B12 in (some?) human feces to 'counteract' the inactive B12 analogue in their stools – whatever 'counteract' means in this context. Already in 1951 it was shown that a group of people with pernicious anemia was treated with B12 that was extracted from their own fecal matter. That's kind of confusing, if dr. Victor Herbert was right in his findings that 95% of the B12 in human feces were inactive B12 analogues.
Anyway, it's good that she has posted he own counter-comment to her old statement saying that there is no such thing as a B12 deficiency. This should also affect this article – since Gina Shaw refers to Vetrano a couple of times. Unfortunately, both articles still miss reliable references to scientific sources, and are probably wrong in important areas. They could still inspire research on these topics though, and hopefully will, because as things are now, they could inspire more of the old "I'll get enough B12 if I don't wash my vegetables" kind of thinking - which is discussed eg here.