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I've yet to have someone claiming meat is good for them explain anything in detail to me. It usually goes:
Joe: Meat is good
Me: Why
Joe: it's got protein
Me: name something without protein
Joe: Uh, meat isn't bad
Me: What about cholesterol and high fat content? Parasites and carcinogens? The pain of the animal?(if they are capable of empathy)
Joe: There's no proof of that
Me: Only scientific studies that link high cholesterol and fat intake to heart disease and kidney failure. Also it's true, the animals are killed before you eat them.
Joe: But it says here at MeatisGood.Beef.com that's not true
Me: it's funded by the beef industry, it says so on the front page
Joe: You're a vegan-nazi
Me: a what?
Joe: you're forcing your views on me!
Me: Ah, you started the whole conversation, and is discussion bad?
Joe: ah, no, PeTA sucks! I saw it on TV
Me: What does that have to do with our conversation?
Joe: (fingers in ears, eyes closed, stomping feet) LA LA LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU! Runs away....
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oh i love that :D :D :D
how true, thats just how the conversations go ;)
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"Only scientific studies that link high cholesterol and fat intake to heart disease"
I'd like to see these. Know where I can find them?
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The reason I'd like to see some of the studies Phillip mentioned is because I've done google searches and found some sites that seem very well-cited and say there's no proven link between high cholesterol and heart disease.
Thanks very much for the links ConsciousCuisine, I'll definitely look through them when I'm not at work.
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It is kind of obvious. Blood travels everywhere and always goes by and to the heart. With the pausing and restarting, it is easier for cholesterol and such to stick. As well as in other places of the body like the brain. Do not ned someone else say it, can think for yourself. True carnivores never getheart problems and what so, until recently with all the drugs and such.
And no one on a plantbased diet every has heart problems, unless genetical. That shows something, and that those who always meat a lot of meat and animal products, die early with heart and other bodily problems.
Anyway many studies have founded this. Just ask for any heart association or study, to give you reports and whatso.
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Actually I think the common perception that dietary cholesterol is a health hazard comes from multiple studies, and because of this has ben accepted as a truth by health and medical organizations. If there are studies that prove excessive cholesterol is not a health hazard they are the ones that need to be brought in to the spotlight as they are contrary to established medical knowledge.
To be well cited they must refer to real scientific studies with such findings, not just other persuasive articles or criticism without study. I've yet to find any such credible information myself using google or any other search engine. Those of course are the works I'm interested in.
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Yes, I feel the same way, Philip and this is why I say what I say about meat, eggs etc. not being health-building. Cholesterol containing foods are not health building! It is pretty simple and there are studies and proof to back up these facts, so I am not sure what good, productive, valid reason anyone on this list who has been told this or read of it would have for questioning it still.
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Quote:
phillip888
I've yet to have someone claiming meat is good for them explain anything in detail to me.
Yep, I've had these conversations before too, though mine often devolve back to omnivores thinking that veganism is not healthy, and then getting entrenched in their own opinions. In a class that I was teaching a few weeks back, we were talking about the consequences of what we consume, and someone brought up the environmental consequences of eating meat. I mentioned that I don't eat meat, dairy, or eggs, which began the familiar litany of:
Class: so you don't drink milk?
Me: No, only soy milk.
Class: but you eat fish, right?
Me: no. And when was the last time you saw fish growing on a tree?
Class: but how about cheese?
Me: cheese is made from milk. So, no. I don't eat cheese. Look, I don't eat anything that farts, or anything that comes from anything that farts, or anything that has a face.
Class: hmmmm. But that can't be healthy.
Me: I've not missed a day of class yet, and many of you have because you caught that cold going around. Also, how many of you ride your bikes 100 miles each weekend, and 20 miles a day like I do? Could I really do all that riding if veganism was 'unhealthy?'
Class: (perplexed) ummmh. well, it can't be healthy! (now getting hostile) We need meat! Plus, we like it. And you're weird, professor!
And that's where we usually end up. I think when smart people realize that there's no rational reason to eat meat, they end up stuck, and have to resort to mindless entrenchment.
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Ethnocentrism, Cognitive Dissonace, anyone? :)
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The "Pro-Meat Arguments?" article from Joanne Stepaniak is relevant to this thread.
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One of those times
Sitting in the park one day, prior to canvassing for a recycling campaign, a young fellow eating a ham sandwich on white bread, noticing I only brought almond butter on whole wheat sandwichs to eat, asked me why. We went through one of these conversations. While he ended puzzelled and while not as hostile as most, resolved the dialectic by stating he liked meat and couldn't imagine not eating it.
This was in Oregon. At the end of the year he disappeared to Pennsylvania to attend school - and get away from home. Two years later he showed up at my door and informed me he was a vegetarian and thanked me for helping him see the light. I thought surely it was due to intelligent people he had met at the university but no, he told me our conversations convinced him.
I had no idea. One bright light amidst the darkness. I cherish the memory and it keeps me going at other times. Like tomorrow when I go to my sisters and have to watch people glutton themselves with turkey, eggs, and ham.
I just hope there have been others.
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I won't beat about the bush NO!
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Re: Are there any good arguments PRO eating animal products at all?
There's no good reason at all....from arguments I've read, the bottom lines boils down to animals taste nice, or financial losses if the meat industry goes under.... nothing worthy.
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Re: Are there any good arguments PRO eating animal products at all?
Short but sweet answer to original question: NO. Nuff said
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Re: Are there any good arguments PRO eating animal products at all?
Quote:
Billy
Short but sweet answer to original question: NO. Nuff said
I'm with Billy - woof woof :D
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Re: Are there any good arguments PRO eating animal products at all?
[Quote] Are there any good arguments PRO eating animal products at all?[Quote]
No :)
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Re: Are there any good arguments PRO eating animal products at all?
I think that it is so evident now that the entire Western society needs to cut down on its meat intake. The only person/company who keeps trying to persuade us otherwise is Dr Atkins, and he does this for a reason, i.e. his own financial gain!
littleTigercub
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Re: Are there any good arguments PRO eating animal products at all?
Isn't he dead? Or did he just have a heart attack? Either way, great advert for eating meat lol
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Re: Are there any good arguments PRO eating animal products at all?
Yes, he is definately dead. He died very overweight too, I can't remember if it was due to a heart attack but that sounds highly likely. :D
The AtkinsMob tried to cover up all the evidence!
This, presumably, is why atkins diet is now known as the Fatkins Diet ;)
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Re: Are there any good arguments PRO eating animal products at all?
His people claim that he slipped on some ice and hit his head. Yeah, like I can't fit into my jeans because they shrunk.
He weighed around 280lbs+ when he died and had a history of heart disease.
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Re: Are there any good arguments PRO eating animal products at all?
Quote:
phillip888
I've yet to have someone claiming meat is good for them explain anything in detail to me. It usually goes:
Joe: Meat is good
Me: Why
Joe: it's got protein
Me: name something without protein
Joe: Uh, meat isn't bad
Me: What about cholesterol and high fat content? Parasites and carcinogens? The pain of the animal?(if they are capable of empathy)
Joe: There's no proof of that
Me: Only scientific studies that link high cholesterol and fat intake to heart disease and kidney failure. Also it's true, the animals are killed before you eat them.
Joe: But it says here at MeatisGood.Beef.com that's not true
Me: it's funded by the beef industry, it says so on the front page
Joe: You're a vegan-nazi
Me: a what?
Joe: you're forcing your views on me!
Me: Ah, you started the whole conversation, and is discussion bad?
Joe: ah, no, PeTA sucks! I saw it on TV
Me: What does that have to do with our conversation?
Joe: (fingers in ears, eyes closed, stomping feet) LA LA LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU! Runs away....
:D I had one of these conversations yesterday!!! :D It helps that I laughed when he did the " LA LA LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU! " thing. In fact I hurt my belly laughing at him. Thanks! :D
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Re: Are there any good arguments PRO eating animal products at all?
But we know they are 'the nazis'! ;) :cool: :rolleyes:
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Re: Are there any good arguments PRO eating animal products at all?
Atkins dropped dead on the street - he suffered a heart attack and weighed in at 20st
littleTigercub
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Re: Are there any good arguments PRO eating animal products at all?
Well that is a good reason to eat meat. Slow suicide... :rolleyes: Silly old fart could have jumped off a bridge years ago and made the world a better place.
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Re: Are there any good arguments PRO eating animal products at all?
You know... I've met a lot of ex-veggies who have told me that after years of not eating meat they suddenly felt like they had more energy after eating red meat again. I would never totally disregard a person's individual experience in favour of a report or a general study. I think eating meat may be beneficial to some people in small amounts. I think more important is the fact that people don't have to eat meat. I haven't eaten meat since 11 and i've been vegan since 21. I don't eat meat because I don't have to. I think there are far more important considerations to take into account before eating other than the mere selfish.
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Re: Are there any good arguments PRO eating animal products at all?
I can't think how meat can be good in small amounts - if it is good, why not have it in large amounts? The point surely is that vegans are living proof that humans don't have to eat animal products at all.
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Re: Are there any good arguments PRO eating animal products at all?
Things are only normally bad in large amounts...
think... fat, chocolate, paracetemal, americans,
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Re: Are there any good arguments PRO eating animal products at all?
Quote:
cog505
Things are only normally bad in large amounts...
americans
:eek:
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Re: Are there any good arguments PRO eating animal products at all?
You just beat me to it cc. so :eek: again
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Re: Are there any good arguments PRO eating animal products at all?
meaning of course they're nice in small amounts :)
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Re: Are there any good arguments PRO eating animal products at all?
Quote:
cog505
You know... I've met a lot of ex-veggies who have told me that after years of not eating meat they suddenly felt like they had more energy after eating red meat again.
It might be a little bit like a drug heroin/cocaine etc (at the early stages of taking drugs...when thinking how good the drug is,when semi-enjoying the addiction. It's better when ex_veggies say they want to go back to being veggie.
Sophisticating meat eating doesn't make it any less savage or any more civilized.
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Re: Are there any good arguments PRO eating animal products at all?
Ok, i see no pro meat eating arguments that override my morals, from where i am right now. Throw me into a natural disaster or other situation where my life is threatened, and to be totatly honest, veganism isnt going to matter. Its for this reason im not attacking people living in impoverished contries for eating meat or drinking water that makes them sick. Its what i would do if we switched places. I doubt anyone on here would disagree with that, seeing as we have the luxory or supermarkets and social assistance programs, while others do not.:(
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Re: Are there any good arguments PRO eating animal products at all?
Quote:
cog505
I think eating meat may be beneficial to some people in small amounts.
What do you mean by 'beneficial'? If you need protein, and eat something with protein, of course eating that protein source is 'beneficial' for that person ie. in a situation where the only alternative was to die, but that's not relevant in a discussion about arguments pro eating animal products, is it?
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Re: Are there any good arguments PRO eating animal products at all?
Quote:
Plunder Bunnie
Ok, i see no pro meat eating arguments that override my morals, from where i am right now. Throw me into a natural disaster or other situation where my life is threatened, and to be totatly honest, veganism isnt going to matter. Its for this reason im not attacking people living in impoverished contries for eating meat or drinking water that makes them sick. Its what i would do if we switched places. I doubt anyone on here would disagree with that, seeing as we have the luxory or supermarkets and social assistance programs, while others do not.:(
Oddly enough, I've had several discussions with people who came from such impoverished countries and it was the whole global fairness issue that convinced them I'm not crazy. I told them that I know there are countries where meat is even cheaper than veggies and that don't have refrigerators or supermarkets. If you live in southern Sudan for isntance, you probably need to eat meat because there's little alternative.
But if you live in the industrialized countries then eating meat harms those poorer countries. Just think for a minute about the politics of water rights and how it ties into the meat industry, or how poorer countries always pay for the bulk of our environmental crimes, or even the export business in trash. Somalia for instance, actually does have some international business activity: they buy trash. Not exactly something that makes me hopeful about progress there.
So I've found that this whole North-South gap argument hasn't necesarilly turned anybody else vegan, but it has convinced a few people who recently came to Europe from these countries that it certainly makes sense for a person living here to consume as little animal products as possible. And that even though they came from a cultural background that has absolutely no understanding for veganism. But everyone understands fairness among humans. (now we just have to expand the species categories :))
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Re: Are there any good arguments PRO eating animal products at all?
Quote:
happycow
how do i fight back when someone claims that we need fish oils:mad: to keep us in optimum condition??????
People recommend it for the Omega 3. However, you get this from other oils and supplements, without the contamination of mercury, risk of food poisoning, parasites etc. We need oil, not fish.
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Re: Are there any good arguments PRO eating animal products at all?
Here's something from a random non-vegan site:
"Many times people confuse or don't differentiate between the different omega-3 fats. ONLY ONE of the omega-3 fatty acids is essential (that is ALA), and a healthy body can make the others (DHA and EPA). Fatty fish contains the non-essential omega-3 fatty acids DHA and EPA. Since the body can make them from ALA, it follows that it is not absolutely necessary to eat fish or take fish oil supplements BUT in all cases it is necessary to get ALA since it is the ESSENTIAL omega-3 fat (best source being flax)."
http://www.homeschoolmath.net/teachi...telligence.php
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Re: Are there any good arguments PRO eating animal products at all?
Why is it that argument about fish is often said to veg*ns by people who rarely or never eat fish anyway? :confused:
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Re: Are there any good arguments PRO eating animal products at all?
I wouldn't care if meat offered me numerous health benefits, and I do not believe it does - why because I am so healthy without it, I still couldn't sacrifice a beings life and eat it. And GAWD, I get enough of this argument from meat eaters and am finding it distressing, although I understand others may be interested, so am going to another thread :eek:
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Re: Are there any good arguments PRO eating animal products at all?
The guidelines state we are not to discuss pro meat eating. Sorry to be perdantic :)