'Ethical farms' - what's your opinion?

Hare Krishnas at Bhaktivedanta Manor in Hertfordshire have opened a New Cow Protection Centre.
The ethos of the new centre is to treat animals and the environment with the highest respect.
Cows at the New Gokul centre are raised in keeping with the Vedic method where nothing need be harmed to produce ample food for all.
The animals are played relaxing music, are hand milked and allowed to live their natural life span.
The community ensures that if their cows are sheltered, fed and protected, they happily produce more than enough milk for their calves, and the excess can be taken without harming them in any way.

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Why? It has been proven that veganism works. Why stick with vegetariansm?

Also the bulls will be castrated and have to run in circles in a treadmill for x amount of time a day to power some machinery that could easily be wind or solar powered. It's pointless, halfassed and not needed/obsolete.


This is their website, and it has a video about where the treadmill will be.

Personally, I think this is a step in the right direction.
I would rather people bought their milk from places like that and here.
With any luck these sorts of dairy farms will become more popular.

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hedge

the excess can be taken without harming them in any way.

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CoolCat

Why? It has been proven that veganism works.

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Good question, CoolKat. Why would one take that milk in the first place, and start consuming a 'product' which is 'meant' for calves and their needs, their growth rate, their natural compatibility with their mother's milk, their age (no mammals other than humans keep drinking milk all their life).... and so on.

The moment a human keeps milking a cow for 'excessive' milk, it's starts producing more milk than her calves need, just like so called free-range hens produce more eggs if we take their eggs.

The Hare Krishna movement - or, what I've seen of it - seems almost obsessed with cow's milk at times. My experience is also that lacto-vegetarians often are lazy when it comes to getting protein and calcium from plant sources, which makes them feel addicted to dairy products. It's much better to just break that chain, instead of trying to find alternative sources for milk from other animals? Letting go of cheese, milk etc. may take 2-3 weeks, but converting Homo Sapiens into a species which is compatible with milk from other species takes... forever.

Even after thousands of years with a lifestyle partially based on milk from other mammals, more than half the world population is either lactose intolerant or have milk allergy. Time to let go...

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-xrXPRasikR...ecies_milk.jpg

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hedge

Personally, I think this is a step in the right direction.

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For whom?

Why insist that humans should spend some years as lacto-vegetarians, largely using animal product as their source for protein, calcium etc., when they don't need to? Why waste time on that instead of just sharing with others that we can be healthy and eat gourmet food every day without using dairy products? Some people actually get cheese (etc) addictions. Why just not skip that part altogether? The shortest way between A and B is a straight line...

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I would rather people bought their milk from places like that

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Wouldn't you rather that they didn't drink milk from other animals at all?

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Korn

For whom?

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For people who still want to drink milk and eat milk products

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Korn

Why insist that humans should spend some years as lacto-vegetarians, largely using animal product as their source for protein, calcium etc., when they don't need to?

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I'm not insisting anything. This farm was bought to my attention and I was curious to hear peoples' opinions about it, hence the topic title.

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Korn

Why waste time on that instead of just sharing with others that we can be healthy and eat gourmet food every day without using dairy products? Some people actually get cheese (etc) addictions. Why just not skip that part altogether? The shortest way between A and B is a straight line...

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Again, I'm not wasting any time and I do share with plenty of people that I can be healthy without using dairy.
I was just curious as to what other members on here thought about it.

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hedge

With any luck these sorts of dairy farms will become more popular.

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Can you not see the issues behind this?

To meet the current demand of milk with these kind of systems we would need/have more cows and bulls than we have today:
- the cows in these systems would need more land / larger barns than we use for cows today.
- more animals means more feed, so more land to grow that feed. The animal feed production is already devastating the world.
- more animals means more manure, where do we put that all ? We already have surplus manure.
- ...

And the demand for milk is increasing with increasing human population and improving standards of living.


It's crazy. It's a welfarist approach that can not work. We can't have 7 billion of hippies, not enough room.
Do you really see increasing the number of animals used as the solution?

I would rather see small ethical dairy farms than large mega dairy farms yes.

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hedge

For people who still want to drink milk and eat milk products

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We should use human milk for that. We wouldn't need special places / farms for livestock, women are part of society. We wouldn't need to grow special feed, they eat the same as the rest of us. They could get paid for their donation and the system would still be cheaper. And human milk is a better fit than milk from non-humans.


It might sound crazy at first, but so is drinking cows milk. Especially as an adult mamal.
In the end it just comes down to what you are used to. The next generation wouldn't think anything at all about using human milk, it would been what they known all their life.

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hedge

I would rather see small ethical dairy farms than large mega dairy farms yes.

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But it can not work. You can not meet demands like that.

I think an ethical animal farm is a contradiction in terms. It is less unethical than commercial farms but still unethical.

Why would someone choose to drink the milk of another species anyway it's not healthy for mind or body IMO. Doing this sends out the message that cow's milk is somehow necessary or important for humans. It isn't.

They must still impregnate the cow and all that, I don't think we have the right. This kind of thing makes me quite uncomfortable that such obviously well meaning people can be so so wrong.

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CoolCat

We can't have 7 billion of hippies, not enough room.

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We can, but not 7 billion milk drinking hippies. :-)

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hedge

For people who still want to drink milk and eat milk products

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In many countries milk wouldn't be something people even considered buying if it weren't for the massive amount of subsidies that were put into factory farms. These farms would never consider hand-milking. But I understand what you mean - if someone insists that they are going to use animal products, of course it's better if the involved animals suffer less.

On a slightly deeper level, this isn't about food or vegan; it's about how to deal with bad solutions that are better than the good ones - but still bad. If a someone thinks it's better to smoke tobacco of Type X instead of tobacco of Type Y, should they use their energy on promoting Type X, or should they go all he way and share the now well known info about tobacco smoking being quite hazardous?

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I'm not insisting anything. This farm was bought to my attention and I was curious to hear peoples' opinions about it, hence the topic title.

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True. Hedge - you're not insisting anything, but the Hare Krishna movement is - and when they spread their recipes highly based on milk, they know that most people won't get milk from hand milked cows. Also - there are so many arguments against using milk - both from a health and ethical perspective, so a title indicating that some milk producing farms are 'ethical' will of course result in reactions of the kind you've seen on a forum for people who don't think we have the right to (or any reason to) take cow's milk.

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Again, I'm not wasting any time and I do share with plenty of people that I can be healthy without using dairy.

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Again, I wasn't think of you.... :) The big question is - what should vegans support and promote - in mass media, campaigns etc? The abolition of all animal slavery / the fact that we don't need or have right to use eggs, milk, meat etc. from other living beings or better ways to treat animals in dairy farms (etc)? My answer to that is that we should let those who aren't vegans, but who are into 'animal welfare' take care of the campaigning for slightly larger cages, more 'humane' slaughtering methods etc. - while vegans should promote a vegan lifestyle.

And there's an important aspect which sometimes is brought up in discussions like this: What if it becomes much harder to get support for total abolition of all animal slavery/use of all animal products - to the extent that fewer people will consider going vegan? If the result of all that is more animal suffer over a long period of time, the 'right direction' may not - from a vegan perspective - be to try to achieve small steps to make the life in cages slightly more comfortable for the animals. And please don't get me wrong - I'm all for all animals suffering as little as possible - including those who have their short and tragical life on chicken farms etc. A small improvement in a factory farm may represent a big step (towards less suffering) for each of the animals, and of course this has to be taken into consideration as well. As I'm sure you know, vegans aren't vegans only due to the factory farm situation. People have been avoiding meat etc long before such a thing as factory farms existed.

If vegans don't promote what we consider the right direction in terms of use animal products, "nobody will". Well... thats not entirely true, due to a massively increasing amount of scientific studies which support the idea of not using animal products - for health reasons. But if vegans should spend energy on promoting what you describe as 'ethical farms', I'm pretty sure the result would be a vast amount of people wondering what 'vegan' actually means.

I completely understand the sentiment that if people are going to drink milk, it is best that the process causes the least amount of suffering possible. I think the problem with that (as others have said) is that it promotes the wrong alternative to people. When someone is made aware of the suffering that goes on in the industry and decides they don't want to support it, the only logical and ethical option should be going vegan. If they think there's a more ethical farming option then purchasing from that farm is going to make them feel better about their use of animal products, so they will continue using animal products rather than abstaining from doing so. So even though from a practical point of view, knowing that most people are not going to become vegan overnight, it seems like a good alternative to factory farming; it sends the wrong message and ends up hurting the cause of veganism. Also, for this particular farm there is no way it will work in the long term if they are honestly going to let all the cows AND bulls live out their normal lifespan. Each of those cows will need to have a calf once a year, and half of those will be male. So the farm will be at capacity in no time and will have to chose between killing some of the bulls or no longer impregnating the cows, and therefore not producing any more milk. Unfortunately there's no way this could work, and no way we could sustain an entire population's milk-drinking habits this way either!

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hedge

The animals are played relaxing music...

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What, something like Procul Harum's "A Whiter Shade of Pail"?:rollseyes_ani:



Seriously, farms where animals are not used at all, impress me more.

lv

I saw someone mentioning this on another forum this is the scheme they were talking about http://www.ahimsamilk.org/blog/. As Bunkyvegan says I can't really see how they can keep so many animals and not slaughter them surely it will be impossible to make any money. Someone was also mentioning the environmental implications of keeping so many cows that weren't producing milk or being killed for meat.

I can't really understand why they don't just drink soya or rice milk.

There are ethical farms and dairy companies.

They produce milk from organic soybeans...

Best regards,
Andy

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Andy_T

There are ethical farms and dairy companies.

They produce milk from organic soybeans...

Best regards,
Andy

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They're not allowed to call it "milk" though (at least not in the EU)...


lv

If you look on the web site they associate consuming milk products with treating the cow with reverence - but other people interpret that idea differently and find they can honour cows without taking their milk - http://www.youngindianvegetarians.co...d_hinduism.htm

Both the OP's link and this (http://www.ahimsamilk.org/blog/) seems to use modern domesticated cows. Those cows have been selectively bred over many generations to ever produce more milk. If you want to do ethical farming wouldn't you be obligated to have livestock of a breed that was as close to "natural cows" as possible and not ones we messed up and that can barely walk because of ridiculous large utters?

It's all just a tunnel vision approach. Focus on a small portion of a bad system, apply some marketing, and make people feel happy about themselfs.

Yes - if I were a cow I'd probably sooner do without that kind of reverence.

haha. milk produced like that would probably cost a fortune. I prefer soymilk

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CoolCat

We should use human milk for that. We wouldn't need special places / farms for livestock, women are part of society. We wouldn't need to grow special feed, they eat the same as the rest of us. They could get paid for their donation and the system would still be cheaper. And human milk is a better fit than milk from non-humans.

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I LOVE this, when you make it about using humans it all makes so much more sense. I personally exchange whatever animal people are talking about with a human and that tells me if this is a sound argument.

I guess there could be other ways to be vegan but for me it means animals are not here for our use, regardless if we play music or cuddle them.

Hey this sounds allot like the whole argument " Its ok if I kill animals as long as I pray over it during and after".

The Abolitionist Approach is the way to go :)

LG

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Ladygold

I LOVE this, when you make it about using humans it all makes so much more sense. I personally exchange whatever animal people are talking about with a human and that tells me if this is a sound argument.

I guess there could be other ways to be vegan but for me it means animals are not here for our use, regardless if we play music or cuddle them.

Hey this sounds allot like the whole argument " Its ok if I kill animals as long as I pray over it during and after".

The Abolitionist Approach is the way to go :)


LG

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Im still not sure if CoolCat meant this as a serious suggestion or as a way to illustrate how weird it is to use cows for milk. I think most people would this its really really weird to use humans for milk, (including myself, although I think theres nothing wrong with it and I guess its more ethical than cows anyway)

I think using human derived food products is almost as unethical as food derived from animals. First of all, the most likely target population to use in food production would be members of disadvantaged classes (leave it to the corporate giants & the merchant class to oppress the low income populations). Second, using non-human animals is almost as cannibalistic as using human products.

Anywho, coming from Texas in the USA, I can tell you that even 'ethical' farms have their problems (sanitary, carelessness, high demand for production, etc.) Cows and chickens are not meant to be stored in a coop or a farmhouse. I doubt that they enjoy listening to music as they are milked and perhaps even slaughtered. With the destruction of many habitats, they might have a more secure food source at farms but at the expense of being captive until death. I don't know, this issue is very troubling. All I know is that Steakhouses and other restaurants definitely do not care if the animal was treated fairly or not before it became a plate of ribs or whatever it's called.

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Fiksdal

Im still not sure if CoolCat meant this as a serious suggestion or as a way to illustrate how weird it is to use cows for milk. I think most people would this its really really weird to use humans for milk, (including myself, although I think theres nothing wrong with it and I guess its more ethical than cows anyway)

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I thought it was really obvious is was not a serious suggestion, just a different way to see something in order to understand why it would be wrong. Maybe i'm wrong? but either way I like the shock value.

edited: I should add I personally got all the breast milk I needed as a enfant. Now i'm on mostly solids ;)

LG

Have you guys read Jonathon Swift's "A Modest Proposal"? It targets world hunger, food sources, wealth and income disparity. But he does so by adding the shock value factor. Hmmmm he includes things like eating human muscle instead of engaging in expensive trade....and other yucky things. Don't take it literal, but rather look at the emphasis he places on a sustainable and environmentally friendly food source!! It was written in 1729, but the topics are head on. He suggests that poor children are used as food sources of luxury for rich ladies and gentlemen.

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VeganAthlete

Have you guys read Jonathon Swift's "A Modest Proposal"? It targets world hunger, food sources, wealth and income disparity. But he does so by adding the shock value factor. Hmmmm he includes things like eating human muscle instead of engaging in expensive trade....and other yucky things. Don't take it literal, but rather look at the emphasis he places on a sustainable and environmentally friendly food source!! It was written in 1729, but the topics are head on. He suggests that poor children are used as food sources of luxury for rich ladies and gentlemen.

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Yes!!
I read that in high school and loved it because people are no desensitized to animal suffering and this makes it hit home. I was talking to my Omni partner and even though he is very supportive of my choices (he is a cook by trade and makes me all vegan dishes) he does not truly understand why eating animal parts or there excretions is bad since he "likes" the taste. I ask him to give me one reason to eat meat that he could not see a rapist use to do what they want and it made him think.

Yes its shocking but If someone wants a real conversation with me about my animal rights ethics then here we are.
LG

Way to go!!! That's an effective eye-opening way of using Swift's tactic. A little extreme, but I'm guilty of doing the same thing in conversations about animal treatment and environmental ethics. My partner was a massive meat eater before we moved in together...but as soon as I moved in I took over the kitchen and the refrigerators. I was sensible to the omni lifestyle, but after seeing how healthy, nutritious and fun a vegan lifestyle can be, he budged. Now he's a committed vegetarian, which makes cooking and dining out sooo much easier!

You must be familiar with the stereotype "everything's bigger in Texas." Lol. Texas is really the home of cowboys and cowgirls...so Texas, in my opinion, does its fair share of using animals for all sorts of weird things (like the Rodeo) Grrr.

I don't want to rant, but saying there are ethical farms is like saying there are "ethical" rodeos and "ethical" slaughterhouses simply because the animals are taken care of before they are put to death. I am so sure little ponies and piggies LOVE being in the back of an 18-wheeler cross-country just to be displayed in various cities or be ridden by people.

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VeganAthlete

I don't want to rant, but saying there are ethical farms is like saying there are "ethical" rodeos and "ethical" slaughterhouses simply because the animals are taken care of before they are put to death. I am so sure little ponies and piggies LOVE being in the back of an 18-wheeler cross-country just to be displayed in various cities or be ridden by people.

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I moved from Halifax NS to Edmonton AB (in Canada if anyone is confused) about 9 years ago and am still amazed by this obsession with rodeo's. At all of my work places you are encouraged to wear jeans during rodeo week to be "supportive" of it.

Even before I was vegan or vegetarian I call this skirt week and tell people I support the animals.

LG

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Ladygold

I moved from Halifax NS to Edmonton AB (in Canada if anyone is confused) about 9 years ago and am still amazed by this obsession with rodeo's. At all of my work places you are encouraged to wear jeans during rodeo week to be "supportive" of it.

Even before I was vegan or vegetarian I call this skirt week and tell people I support the animals.

LG

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That is sad :( and I thought Canada wasn't so rodeo crazed. I honestly don't understand the whole concept of the rodeo and I've never been to one (sounds like a festival where junk food is sold in unhygienic conditions). I just have witty remarks and dirty looks when I've been invited to attend. Oh the Livestock show is another big event in south Texas. Never been but from what I hear it's a whole bunch cows, chicken, goats and other animals in pens...and some of them are auctioned or something like that. I should know because I'm Texan, but I don't because like you said, I support the animals....NOT the ranchers.

While I disagree with the drinking of milk, I must say that I rather have this method of producing milk than the factory farmings' way. I honestly hope the drinking of milk gets banned though.

I'm in favour of improving animal farming conditions (not least because it will make animal products more expensive so people will consume less of the stuff).

However I find this particular enterprise a bit sinister because it seems to be implying that they're doing the animals a favour when they're still (IMO) exploiting them - "Cow Protection Centre", indeed.

Also I think they're misleading people if they're telling them that no-kill dairy farming is a sustainable way of life for anyone but a small elite. I suppose it might be if nobody consumes more than about 1cc of milk per annum.

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Fiksdal

Im still not sure if CoolCat meant this as a serious suggestion or as a way to illustrate how weird it is to use cows for milk. I think most people would this its really really weird to use humans for milk, (including myself, although I think theres nothing wrong with it and I guess its more ethical than cows anyway)

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VeganAthlete

I think using human derived food products is almost as unethical as food derived from animals. First of all, the most likely target population to use in food production would be members of disadvantaged classes (leave it to the corporate giants & the merchant class to oppress the low income populations). Second, using non-human animals is almost as cannibalistic as using human products.

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Ladygold

I thought it was really obvious is was not a serious suggestion, just a different way to see something in order to understand why it would be wrong. Maybe i'm wrong? but either way I like the shock value.

edited: I should add I personally got all the breast milk I needed as a enfant. Now i'm on mostly solids ;)

LG

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A couple of remarks:

VeganAthlete every system lends itself to abuse by rogue individuals. There is nothing wrong with making and wearing shoes to protect ourself from the climate and the environment, but when those shoes are made by a 6yr old kid then clearly that is deemed wrong. However we don't stop wearing shoes because there is some abuse in the sector. So why should we hold back in implementing a new system because someone could potentially abuse it. Deal with the abuse but go forth with progress I would argue.

As to being serious. Of course the idea of grown ups using human breast milk might be questionable to many, but so is the use of milk from other species. Drinking/tasting human breast milk is not unheared of in men who's partner is lactating after birth. Probably more do/did than are willing to admit, and probably even more wanted but didn't have the courage to bring it up with their partner (no I never had a partner that lactated, so this is not a confession :p). And of course some women do taste their own milk as well.

There are currently already human breast milk banks. Women that have excess milk production can choose to donate milk for free and women that don't produce enough (or at all) and want to avoid giving formula or cows milk can withdraw human breast milk from these banks. These are all small scale initiatives. Small scale not for profit (women don't get paid far as I know) might be more "good' than a semi-commercial organisation but I'm sure a larger scale would be achievable if donations would be paid for. At current withdrawel has to be paid for to cover overhead cost (staff, storage, transport, administration, ...) and is quite expensive. Running this kind of thing on a large scale would reduce costs and create room to pay for the donations and would mean more babies would benefit from human breast milk when their moms don't produce enough or as often is the case don't want to nurse [which is totally wtf but another discussion]. As for other uses, if supply is plenty and someone wants to pay good money and thus supporting the system that benefits babies why shouldn't it be used for other things. Things like navel blood is already harvested right after birth for all sorts of medical applications. What's weird about human breast milk?

Like I said in my original post, the next generation wouldn't question the use of human breast milk like we do if they grew up in a system where it was normal to do so. Nursing other peoples kids isn't unheared of in our history either, but today people would think it is weird to have your kid nursed by another women. We are just getting weirder and weirder in considering what is weird.

CoolCat,

Of course, every system lends itself to abuse and negligence. I agree that any progress at all is better than no progress. I suppose you meant using human milk for the purpose of infant consumption. Adult humans don't necessarily require as much milk (if any) as infants. I do find the idea of human milk being used for the production of cheese and yogurt, but I suppose it would make some sense to manufacture that rather than non-human products. The thing about that implementation is the likelihood of consumer revolt and disgust. I wonder how omni consumers would react to purchasing milk, cheese and yogurt manufactured and produced from breast milk. I think that would make a statement on its own and perhaps be a stepping stone to using plant sources for milk.

I am a bit biased in this because from what my parents have told me, I was never actually breast fed due to medical complications so I was on soy milk during infancy. I never really cared for cheese, yogurt or most dairy products and I can honestly admit that I have never drank a glass of cow's or goat's milk ever. Plant sources are definitely sustainable and adequate for human consumption as long as they are fortified with the necessary nutrients.

Yup, humankind is becoming weirder and weirder. The weird thing about human milk is the thought of eating a pizza made out of breast milk, or eating yogurt made out of breast milk. Eewww :(

That's just because you aren't used to the idea. Most people would consider drinking milk straight from the cow weird. But squeezing it out of her first and putting it in a glass is magically acceptable. Giving a baby the breast is one of the most natural things there is but in plenty of "civilised" countries feeding in plublic is no longer acceptable. You would get weird looks, be judged, asked to move to a private place or even be arrested. There have been instances where cops were called when a woman fed her baby in the waiting room of a hospital and she refused to move to a more "appropriate" place (as in voided from social contact during the feeding). Totally WTF. I'm fed up with humans, we are just fail. I hate all this fakeness about us. I mean we even have rules saying you should keep your pinky up when you drink tea. It's all fucking stupid.

I'm not waiting for human cheese [which has already been made according to the internets] or yogurt as I stopped using the animal kind ages ago and don't need a replacement. I do however consider them the same. We are just mammals. There is nothing special about us at all.

I probably shouldn't rant so late at night but meh...