The issue of organic farms...what do you think?

Some people claim that organic farms are great, really humane, etc etc. However, from all kinds of reports that I've heard, most are not this way, in particular, "Cage free" egg farms. What else do you guys know about this? I personally don't trust the average organic farm, unless I were to actually *go* to the farm. I'd appreciate some links. Thanks so much!

You are referring to ANIMAL farms, right? I don't have any use for any farm that is involved with any animal products.

I don't want animal products of any kind, regardless of the claims made by the profit-makers.

Up until recently, legally, "organic meat" only meant that the animals received organic food. And I'm going to guess that things haven't improved much in reality either. Except for some meat-eaters patting themselves on the backs.

Oh, I wasn't referring to consuming animal products. It's just that I hear a lot of vegetarians trying to ease their consciences by giving beautiful serene pictures of organic animal farms. I actually tried to explain that "organic" doesn't usually refer to the conditions of the animals, and got some pretty angry responses. I was just wondering if there were more specific studies or articles on the real conditions of organic farms.

to begin with, it is speciesist to use animals for our purposes.

even if we were to concede that any improvement is some improvement, the issue of trust does come up.

I for one do not trust human beings to do anything in moderation, including raise animals.

I agree. I think there is a common misconception that when something is USDA certified organic, than the animals are automatically treated humanely. To my knowledge, USDA standards only apply to giving growth hormones and putting antibiotics in the milk.

I believe that, in Europe at least, organic farms do have to conform to somewhat higher standards of animal husbandry than ordinary ones: calves of dairy cattle are left a bit longer with their mothers etc. However the end-point for the animals is still arguably the same because the animals still get killed if they aren't productive (and often in the same industrialised abattoirs as other farm animals).

So I think if someone is going to insist on eating animal products organic stuff (in Europe at least) is a better choice, but it does not at all remove the objections to animal products from a vegetarian or vegan perspective.

But we don't eat animal products - organic or otherwise.

the free range idea appeases the animal welfare advocates; or, as I like to call them, HALF ASSED VEGANS!:D

UH OH, there goes my 'petty politics' again. :confused:

But do you think there can be degrees of cruelty? Say, a difference between the factory-farming of Tyson and KFC and the local "organic" farm? If we think about how to get people eventually to our way of thinking, do you think it would be good to at least get them to think about the abhorant conditions of factory farms, and get them to at least think about what they're eating once in awhile? I agree that the end result is the same, the death of an animal for consumption, but in order to get the "mainstream" to accept something different from their daily routine, I think possibly an "organic" farm can be an option for them to take, as a sort of stepping stone for possible vegetarianism and veganism?

I agree with vivisanctor. And the same thing applies to people who feel pretty good to eat 'free range' eggs. For all we know it may increase the number of eggs being sold. The point is that people don't care to think about the ghastly conditions of factory farms, they're only interested in what they eat. An organic farm is only an option for them to take as a way of improving the taste of their meat and eggs, it's not a stepping stone for vegetarianism and veganism.

eve-

you are right about the organic farms. People do think of organic farms as a way of increasing the quality of their meat/eggs. But i think that free-range farms definitely are a product of animal rights issues, even in the meateaters' minds.

negavert-

Good point. I've always tried to convince these 'all-or-nothing' people to step back and look at the big picture. The only way we will change the public opinion of the rights of animals is if we transition their thinking to our way. If we brashly oppose their thinking with completely contradictory words every time we have a dialogue, they will be steadfast in their beliefs. We will not move forward.

This is where animal welfare organisations may well appeal more to the mainstream than animal rights orgs, maybe a different thread.