This Spartacus is quite a nice chap but does something that is revolting?
Printable View
Difficult to converse with someone who doesn't like 2-way communications eh...........
Just to point out that the "real" Nutella isn't vegan...
But there are various brands of dairy-free chocolate-hazelnut spread on the market; just make sure you read the labels carefully. :)
I'm Spartacus!
Hello If you're like me (not much willpower and also rather contrary- minded :o) I should try not to think about avoiding cheese or finding substitutes at first and just concentrate on finding plenty of vegan foods you like. That way you can phase out dairy produce and not feel deprived because you will be eating other nice stuff.
I did eat quite a lot of dairy produce, esp when I was lacto-veg for a year or so before becoming vegan, and thought I would find it hard to manage without but honestly I don't miss it it all now, or even think about it. As spartacus said hummus and nut butters (and also seed butters such as tahini) often come in handy when you might have had cheese before, e.g. as a snack with crackers or bread, or on a baked potato.
Harpy have you gone insane after you scary experience the other day? :amazed_ani:
*your* scary experience
Perhaps there are some places where humans shouldn't live.
The UK is cold enough!
You really wanna be a hunter gatherer in a cold climate?
Sounds like a harsh life!
Nonsense, I'M Spartacus!:dizzy:
This is a good point!
Possibly many humans live where humans shouldn't have to live because where they could live has long since been ringfenced off for the vast unnatural flocks and herds.
Something like 30% of all land space on the face of the planet is farmed (bearing in mind that a fair percentage is desert and mountains and stuff) and 70% of that 30% is used entirely for animal agriculture.
Get rid of the animal agriculture and you have an awfull lot of land to return to wildlife habitat and to move humans who live where humans shouldn't have to live about.
Would gathering some coins from benevolent passers-by and then hunting down a fish-and-chips merchant to secure some food also be considered?
Because I guess that is what a hunter-and-gatherer lifestyle in Britain might amount to nowadays.
Best regards,
Andy
It's possible.
I expect you're Spartacus too, cw http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hFbCS4a14J4
Thank you all for covering for me! ;)
'Lo Andy,
It would be hunt down an Indian Restaurant owner in modern day Blighty matey.
Britains No.1 favourite take-away dish is no longer fish'n'chips but Chicken Tikka-Massalla.
Which minds me of the 'Spartacus' I met in my local Indian Restaurant; He had been talking about huntin'n'fishing when he realised there was a vegan (me!) present.
He quickly switched to the usual old "respect vegans/don't like factory farming/only eat stuff I have caught and killed myself" bollox.
Then one of the waiters turned up with his take-away which turned out to be none other than Britains new favourite dish, Chicken Tikka Massala ...
Couldn't help myself, just looked straight at his carry-out bag, then straight into his eyes, and said "hunted and killed that yourself then did you?"
Left me musing that one of the many aspects of the suffering that meat causes is that it makes basicaly very nice people, who really would like the world to be a better place, into pathetic lying wankers.
"I expect omnis to be brainwashed slaves to the meat eating habit exactly the same as I was." Cupid Stunt 26 Jan 2011
Forgive me Cupid but your two statements seem a bit contradictory to me. How can people you call "brainwashed slaves", also be "pathetic lying wankers"? ;)
leedsveg
No contradiction there at all most honourable matey :)
Brainwashing (kinda by definition?) is a process by which people are blinded to all but the 'lie' that the brainwasher wishes to instill and propogate.
Anyone who has been succesfully brainwashed is thus going to be a propagator of the lies they have been brainwashed into believing and thus, by default, is going to be a liar.
Wow, Cupid - you sure do love making assumptions. For example, that everyone here is your "mate". Are they?
That's a sweeping statement if there ever was one. I sincerely believe there are people (like I was) have never really made the connection between meat-eating and cruelty, but once they are, are willing to change. Then there are those unwilling (or unable) to give up meat for a variety of reasons, and those aware of the cruelty involved, but don't care.
But calling all meat eaters "pathetic lying wankers" is intolerant, disrespectful and plain untrue. I would ask you respectfully to tone down your language; we are not all your "mates" and this is not a bar where a bit of Dutch courage gives you the licence to say whatever you please.
Sorry Cupid but with respect, your explanation elicited a few guffaws in the house of Leedsveg. MrsLeedsveg is an excellent creative writer but even she was amazed at what you can do with words! :amazed_ani: We're now awaiting with bated breath, your take (so far inexplicably missing) on the two other words from the phrase "pathetic lying wankers". (I have every confidence that you will prove to your own satisfaction that the two sentences of yours that I queried, are not contradictory.)
Good wishes as always Leedsveglol
LV- How is this helping the cause as set forth by the founders of the vegan society, or whatever you said your sole purpose was here at the vegan forum now. I thought you had given up trouble making?
I rather suspect that some are definitely not Fiamma, m'matey :)
No it wasn't.Quote:
That's a sweeping statement if there ever was one ..
The bloke I met did seem like a very nice bloke but he was a pathetic lying wanker as I relayed in the story that my observation related to, matey.
The whole point of brainwashing is that the victim ends up believing whatever it is they're brainwashed about. And if you say something you believe, you're not lying, even if the thing isn't true - you're uttering a false belief in good faith. "Lying" on the other hand normally means saying something false with intent to deceive.
Hi RubyDuby
I think if people make what I perceive are contradictory statements, then I can challenge them. And not only statements that are contradictory but couched in language that I, and I would hope others, find quite offensive. How can you ie any vegan have any hope of persuading omnis to take veganism seriously if you refer to them as "pathetic lying wankers" and "brainwashed slaves"? And refer to discussions with omnis as "kicking ass"? I had hoped that Cupid would tone down his postings, following on from his "vegetarians are worse than paedophiles" comment some months ago but apparently not. Is Cupid just a 'wind-up merchant'? Well I look at his "m'matey" response to fiamma and have to wonder.
As for your question "I thought you had given up trouble making?", I really don't think it's worthy of a reply.
Ian Davison (Leedsveg)
I don't think we vegans should fall out about this, otherwise we are just doing what trolls want (not sure if spartacus is a troll or a seeker after truth but either way...)
I know CS thinks a more confrontational approach works better in making people rethink their meat-eating but (even if it was my style) I would feel rather hypocritical calling people lying wankers and so on considering I ate meat for ages myself. I probably did believe some "lies" about humane meat production and so on before I looked into it in more detail. But that's different from lying.
[QUOTE=fiamma;675063 I sincerely believe there are people (like I was) have never really made the connection between meat-eating and cruelty, but once they are, are willing to change. Then there are those unwilling (or unable) to give up meat for a variety of reasons, and those aware of the cruelty involved, but don't care.
[/QUOTE]
Then arent the ones who can make the connection liars? (Pathetic or otherwise)
They know the truth but chose to ignore it or bend it to suit their own pleasure and purpose.
If you are brainwashed into believing a truth only to have it exposed as a lie dont you become a liar yourself if you perpetuate it ?
Slack Alice
Hi. I have been away for a few days and some posts have been reported. Please avoid personal attacks, and this includes writings that only appear as personal attack/insults on others. It's fully possible to express one's feelings about meat eating and meat eaters without insulting them all.
After all, they represent ninentysomething % of all people in the Western world, and we can discuss what they do (in this case: eating meat) and still focus on viewpoints instead of personalities.
Re. Spartacus, the original poster in this thread; he has been on moderated posts and also have had some of his many posts removed due to many repetitions of the same few things he has brought up in various threads (veganism in cold climates etc). The removed posts *may* have included responses to questions from others, but with his cross-posting, the sometimes very long posts - and his high posting rate it's impossible to follow up his desires to have the many questions he raises discussed. He has, on several occasions, accused others for having stated things they haven't - and all of this, combined with the fact that this is mainly a forum for vegans means that the the vegan/non-vegan section should be considered more or less closed - expect for cases where there are no false accusations or a similarly hight rate of posting anti-vegan arguments across many messages/threads.
He has been more active than most of our active members, and I simply don't have capacity to focus on moderating all his posts. This, combined with him letting me know that he finds that most of what he has received here is "hostile prejudice, rudeness and heavy censorship" and that I'm "afraid" of his posts means that he doesn't even like the site, and this is a site for this who like it.
Next time a meat eater pops up in this section, please don't be rude, call them "pathetic lying wankers" or similar.
You might want to look at the Forum guidelines:
Rule # 5) Consider VF a dinner party where vegans are invited to friendly communication.
It doesn't really matter what our own personal opinion of meat-eaters is, but what we write on an Internet forum is another matter.
Calling people "pathetic lying wankers" might be OK on other forums, but on VF we try to be a little more constructive.
Harpy put it very well in her post above #31:
The whole point of brainwashing is that the victim ends up believing whatever it is they're brainwashed about. And if you say something you believe, you're not lying, even if the thing isn't true - you're uttering a false belief in good faith. "Lying" on the other hand normally means saying something false with intent to deceive.
"Lier" = focusing on someones personalities - as opposed to what they do and their thoughts.
"Not telling the truth" = focus on the actual topic. Surely many meat eaters 'ignore it or bend it to suit their own pleasure and purpose", but this may be true for many vegans as well in several life situations - even if we avoid animal products.
Cupid
I like to make people laugh but in the rib-tickling stakes, you are The Master. I was going to tell you that some people think my middle name is 'Honesty' but in actual fact it's Roger, so I won't.lol
Happy Valentines Day to you and Slack, by the way. I hope you're treating her to card, flowers, meal, the full monty.
Leedsveg
It struck me earlier that sometimes people can be brainwashed into telling 'the truth'. For instance, where people who have been brainwashed by cults to believe the most outlandish, idiotic nonsense ie lies, and the only perceived recourse has been to kidnap them and brainwash (reprogramme) them back, so that their 'critical faculties' kick in again.
Leedsveg
Heavens to betsy!
I apologise for using the word 'wanker' but the bloke in the story that line was attached to was one and he was lying, patheticaly.
He knew full well that he hadn't caught the chicken in his chicken tikka-massala himself.
No mistake. He was lying and it was pathetic. That was all I wanted to say.
Right speech
Right speech (samyag-vāc / sammā-vācā), deals with the way in which a Buddhist practitioner would best make use of their words. In the Pali Canon, it is explained thus:[30][31][32][33][34]
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, and from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
I thought you were a Buddhist, CS?................
Is Spartacus able to send pm's? If so I would be happy to receive a pm from him (as I'm sure others would) and would answer any questions he might have. I wouldn't be hostile or rude to him.............just honest. :)
There is no one on this forum who is 'afraid' of his posts.............why should we be? As for his remark that 'this is a site for those who like it'.........isn't that what most people do? Who wants to go on a site they don't like? Perhaps he made a Freudian slip there as in reality it's he who doesn't 'like the site'. I wonder why? :)
Well, somehow calling meat eaters pathetic liars/wankers in a section where meat eaters are allowed to post doesn't help, and there have been a couple of other not-so-nice comments as well. He doesn't like that he is on moderated posts, and calls it 'heavy censorship' - but a forum for vegan where meat eaters can post freely just wouldn't work. Most of the meat eaters who have posted here in the past have shown little respect for our board rules, and to some degree they've done what Spartacus did: brought up the same topic over and over again in many threads - including when they have been pointed to threads where these topics already have been discussed.
And no - meat eaters won't get PM access - and I'm not sorry about that. :-) Most of them just don't get that the main focus of veganism is to respect other living beings right to a good life, and have asked many questions a la 'what's wrong with eating animals; after all - I'm killing them myself!" and so on...WeI don't want our members to "risk" getting such questions from fellow forum members in PMs. Non-vegans will always be on moderated posts (or have no posting abilities at all), and I can't/won't moderate PMs. As some of you know, trolls and meat eaters are, in some cases, a lot more active than our regular members (until their accounts are disabled)
If I'd register at a vegan forum and receive private messages of the kind the stuff Spartacus have posted (posts which haven't been approved), I'd just leave the forum. It's a forum for vegans: all others are considered occasional visitors with limited to access - and only access to this area. If they would have free access to PMs. and be on moderated posts, they'd just start to actively post the same stuff in unmoderated PMs to vegan members.
Having said that, Spartacus have shown a higher degree of respect for some essential board rules than some members have. But - the sad fact that he doesn't respect animals (to the degree that he thinks it's OK to kill them) means that he already is outside the group of people this forum mainly is meant for. If I should move and moderate Spartacus many posts, keep explaining the board rules and respond to questions/comments to me personally (posted in public threads), I would have way to little time to do the admin/mod work I need to do for the vegan members of this forum (99.9%). I just have to focus on the main intension behind this site.
IF a meat eater would log in and post arguments or pseudo-arguments vegans wouldn't already have heard and responded to for many years, I'll definitely give them higher priority than members who ask all those questions we already have addressed. But Spartacus doesn't belong on that category, and it has been years since we had someone post any critical questions or counter-arguments that aren't already responded to in existing threads. Therefore, this section may - one day - be replaced with a link to some static (non-discussion) pages which address all these old and well know questions and comments we've heard so many times.
I'm not sure that 10 or 11 year old children do know the truth, though, given that the food industry ensures they are surrounded by pictures of contented animals in fields and none of factory farms or slaughterhouses?
In adults there is less excuse for not knowing the facts, but then most of us are guilty of closing our minds to stuff we don't want to think about, otherwise we would probably spend less time arguing on forums and more raising money for Oxfam :-/ So even though I feel veganism is much better than omnivorism, I don't think vegans are necessarily "better" than omnivores - perhaps in a sense we're luckier though.
I think you will find, in line with the not lying bit, that it says Bad Buddhist in my title Sandra.
And now for some 'idle chatter' ..
One of the core 'ideas' in buddhism is that we should desire all sentient beings to be free from suffering and its causes. Another is that every buddhist should work, to the maximum extent of his/her skillfullness, to free them.
Yet another is that when gentle lessons fail we should not be afraid to use harsh lessons in our efforts to free them and when both gentle and harsh lessons fail we should not be afraid to walk away.
People here don't see my gentle side. It isn't necessary. We have gentleness here in great abundance and that is one of the nicest things about this forum.
What we also have here is frequent posts from people who have become 'stumped' as to what to say when gentle lessons have failed with people (freinds/parents/partners etc) whom they do not wish to, or cannot, walk away from.
Within the limits of my personal 'skills' is the ability to deliver very harsh lessons. It is not a common 'skill' so it is the one I spend most of my time on.
And finaly, as you seem to have developed an interest in buddhism ..
Read further. The buddha was not at all reluctant to deliver some pretty serious tongue lashings when occasion demanded it.
Unhappy experience leads me to believe otherwise Harpy ..
When my own kiddies (vegetarian from birth) were of that age many of their freinds expressed curiosity about our meat free household.
Usualy it only took a little of the old "well, you know where meat comes from?" leading up to "so we don't eat meat because we don't want any part in the killing of animals" and off they would go to tell their parents that they wanted no part in that either and wanted to be vegetarians.
I have no doubt that most of them knew the truth at that age. All they needed was an adult to confirm it for them.
Yes, I like the idea that we're luckier!Quote:
In adults there is less excuse for not knowing the facts, but then most of us are guilty of closing our minds to stuff we don't want to think about, otherwise we would probably spend less time arguing on forums and more raising money for Oxfam :-/ So even though I feel veganism is much better than omnivorism, I don't think vegans are necessarily "better" than omnivores - perhaps in a sense we're luckier though.
Unless anyone thinks that they are not a better them as a vegan than they were as a meat-eater I cannot see that there is any sense in arguing that vegans are not better than meat-eaters though.