Spent chickens will be slaughtered for meat. At some point egg production reduces and the chicken will be replaced out of economic reasons. This is well before the expected lifetime of a chicken. So by buying eggs you also contribute to that.
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Here they would be known as chickens for soup. They would be cheaper and mainly used in processed foods, they wouldn't normally be sold in supermarkets to end consumers. Anyway it doesn't really matter what they are used for, vegetarians have a part in it. Ethical vegetarians oppose the killing of animals but still contribute to it.
^Yeah, ignore me, I realised what I was saying was probably wrong after posting it. Been doing accounts all day and it's turned my brain to mush. But yeah, like you say, it's a moot point what they're used for really.
A major problem with the egg industry is that 50% of chickens are not capable of laying eggs, due to missing ovaries.
That limits their life expectancy to a few hours - as long as it takes to "sex" the freshly hatched chickens.
Considering the living conditions of laying hens, I am not sure if it is a huge loss or rather a godsent for the mail chickens to be gassed/shredded/smothered immediately after birth, but it is certainly not something for a caring person (which I suppose most vegetarians to be) to support.
Best regards,
Andy
I have 3 vegetarian friends who are really into animal rights and have had times as Vegans, I must say I have a lot of time for them and have a lot in common with them. They campaign for animals and one set up a charity to help animals in Greece. Where as a Vegan for health reasons I find I have little in common with except what I eat. Although they are reducing the amount of animals that are killed, they still buy animal products eg. Leather, cleaning products and cosmetics tested on animals etc.
Although I wished they'd turn to veganism, I'm glad to see people trying to do something in a world were apathy is the norm.
Some Vegetarians I really find annoying though, I think a lot depends on the individual and their motivation.
How do i view them ? i view them as any other people in the world. I respect them and i respect their choice. Nothing worst than a vegan trying to convert people.
P.S: Im vegan.
I don't see anything wrong in trying to 'convert' someone to veganism, as long as it's done in a nice, non-confrontational way. It would be nice for the whole world to progress to a more civilized place afterall. :)
As far as how I view vegetarians...........I was one for many years and can't believe I didn't realise, that even though I wasn't eating meat I was still contributing to animal suffering. I wish I had known a vegan friend back then to educate me properly about veganism.
^I agree, both about the converting and about wishing I'd known a vegan back then.
Anyway, I think of vegetarians the same way I think of meat eaters. If they can go vegan then I think they should and if they want to hear it I'd be happy to explain to them why, and if they can't go vegan then vegetarianism is still better than nothing.
What Sandra said!!!
And I am really happy whenever I can help somebody else "see the light".
I personally find it much easier (from my experiences) to explain to vegetarians that they are still causing suffering, having been one myself for about 20 years (out of ignorance, not wilfully wanting to consume animal products so much that I did not want to stop), than to talk to meat-eaters and convince them to go vegan. That's also why I find it frustrating when I encounter those that do not want to understand the problems.
Best regards,
Andy
I agree with Sandra too. (I know that by "trying to "convert"' Sandra means explaining the relevant facts to people who seem interested, rather than haranguing or berating people which is counterproductive, with the sort of people I know anyway.)
Bless vegetarians or any intermediate dietary move as it shows the progression of say a toddler on training wheels to the BMX champion. 100% veganism is not an option however a constant endeavor towards less cruelty certainly is. If a vegetarian lifestyles helps spread information on compassion, then a vegan lifestyle is to spread deeper information. This is not to place vegans on a pedestal in any way, as no 'degree' or even 'knowledge' is required, there is a psycho/spiritual step that has brought us here and you can't fake that feeling nor can you induce it by a specific situation. For example 'Earthlings' does not provoke everyone into becoming a Vegan, there is no set 'vegan conversion method' and so what would be pro-active is selfless-support. Educate through compassion. In a way, one could view it as a bonzai tree next to an oak tree. Neither are 'better' trees, one may be more established, older but does that make it 'better'? "beauty is in the eye of the beholder" situation here. So nurture them bonzais!
In a way, the next generation Vegan should be the original vegan 2.0 version! There is an indian quote...
"we do not inherit the land from our ancestors, but borrow it from our children"
Similarly, we are to provide the next generation Vegan with information. Now who has the power? The power of continuation?
Namaste
I agree with those who saythat is exactly my position. Indeed I support anyone who choses to change their actions in order to cause less suffering. Including those meat eaters who chose to switch to less cruel methods. It is a step in the right direction. I encourage them to make further steps.Quote:
I view vegetarians as enlightened people who aren't quite 'there' yet
After all I was a vegetarian before I was a vegan,
Cheese isn't a vegetable.
I personally would never judge anyone for their decisions in life - I'm no better than anyone else and far from perfect so don't feel I have the capacity to judge anyone!!!! I understand the whole argument about veggies knowing the torture and abuse that happens against animals, therefore should take the full commitment against any animal product, but as long as their doing some good and doing their bit to help the cause - isn't that better than nothing???
I was a veggie for a while before becoming vegan and it shouldn't be something to take lightly, it's a huge step to cut all diary products and possibly changing things within your lifestyle. I researched and planned my transition and would of challenged anyone for judging me making this decision in my own time!!
And I agree with you Andy, its far easier to encourage and support veggies to take the final step as they already have the empathy there from cutting meat out. But meat eaters tend to be happily ignorant and prefer not to know so they can carry on eating their beefburgers and steak pies.
Veggies have empathy and care for animals and the suffering they experience, why not try to spread the word of vegan-ism and support veggies to cut diary out rather than judging them completely..??
Blessed Be .... SongOfSusannah
Hello to all vegans out there, this is my first post on the forum!- good to know there are so many like-minded people .Its all about making the complete connection. I became vegetarian about 13 years ago because loving animals I couldn't justify eating them. I didnt at that time link eating dairy to the full atrocities - and how ignorant I was! I then became vegan about 5 years ago after informing myself of all the wider issues. So when I see vegetarians, I see the place I used to be in and hope in time they wiil become better informed and do the same. Yes I agree vegetarians are definitely easier to talk to and don't react in the same manner if you tell them you're vegan. Talking to a meat eater about veganism , I find pretty pointless when they have no awareness of the issues or even want to try to understand.
I do not understand the notion of not judging anyone for their life decisions. This is surely liberal nonsense no? Can one not judge the rapist? the violent sadist? the serial killer? Stalin? I think as we each have our opinons of what is right and wrong, in terms of action, then surely we can not excuse another of something we would not do ourselves? If one were to disagree with this position then we could rightly say they are employing 'liberal arrogance'. To not hold one to ones standards is to view them as lesser than you. By respecting one as equal to yourself you can then value them and themby judge their conduct.
Raping and killing are wrong! I no more agree / respect a human who does this to another human-animal than one who consumes dairy etc...If you are veggie with the view of one becoming vegan then that is one thing. However, those who reside forever as a veggie annoy me more than meat eaters.
I was raised veggie as my parents both are lacto-ovo/lacto vegetarians. They have both supported my transition to veganism in a big way as have my vegetarian friends - moreso than some of my omni friends who find the whole concept extreme and alien. Of course I feel that I have seen the light now and look to my 'old' self with new eyes and see where I had been going wrong for so long. But I was not a bad person being vegetarian- I just wasn't as enlightened as I am now. It is a journey I regret not taking sooner and if I could go back and speak to the vegetarian me all them years ago I would rant and rave about how amazing a change it is. But I wouldn't berate myself or anything like that because I didn't know any better. I didn't realise the difference being vegan would make in all aspects. I feel like that vegetarianism could be just that middle stepping stone to becoming vegan - the vegetarians I know do so for ethical reasons. I would imagine that in time, once they know fully what the impact their diet was still having on all them animals exploited daily, they would come to the decision that veganism is for them. But it is a personal choice, and one that may take them a while. It took me long enough! I think the vegetarians who are so for ethical reasons or from a love for animals - they should be encouraged and 'shown' the way. I am soon to be seeing my best friend and we have decided to watch 'Earthlings'. She is a lacto-ovo veggie who became pescatarian first, then veggie on account of seeing 50 chicken hearts for sale at a butchers in France. So who knows! :)
I view them as dairy addicts. Not entirely their fault.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5VWi6dXCT7I
Chocolate, Cheese, Meat, and Sugar -- Physically Addictive
Nor is Salt.Quote:
Cheese isn't a vegetable.
I was vegetarian for 21 years since I was born, and only in the past month have I become vegan. I think a lot of vegetarians do not understand the extent of dairy farming. I certainly didn't, and imagined dairy cows to be happy in a field off in the distance. Then I watched Earthlings.. couldn't get too far through it because it honestly broke my heart, but within the first 15 minutes I had decided that I couldn't justify drinking milk when my reasons for being a vegetarian were animal welfare. It just seems so contrary! I think you are right, nut_cutlet, vegetarians mean well but need to be shown the way. If I had seen this 3 years ago it would have had the same affect!
I try to veiw vegetarians as not being there yet but the problem is a lot of them do not ever want to get there. I was vegetarian for 14yrs befor i was vegan and making the change took time but when i got to know that dairy was as cruel as meat i had to give it up. Vegetarian is a good place to start but being vegan is the place to finish!
I tend to view vegetarians as uncommitted, as halfway there, as not trying. I get annoyed when they're proud of being vegetarian because they're not helping animals, so I don't engage with them.
Of course they do:They make animal farming less profitable by not buying meat, and reduce the overall number of requests for meat. When people eat less meat, fewer animals are raised for food/fewer animals suffer.Quote:
they're not helping animals
I have found it quite frustrating trying to talk to vegetarians about veganism because I think they can be quite set in their ways. I know I never planned to improve when I was veggie - I just cut out meat and thought that was enough. Anyway, it's hard to generalise. Some of them are very open to learning and changing and some of them aren't. :p
I was a vegetarian for seven years before becoming Vegan. I didn't know any better. I thought I was helping. I used to think Vegans were all sickly and crazy. In the end, it took me that long to really open my eyes. I did it all on my own. I have no Vegan friends in real life. I didn't have anyone telling me what was healthy, or what was humane. Once I realized my mistake, I switched as quickly as I could. My vegetarianism ended up being a stepping stone, even though it didn't start out that way. Although I wish I had switched much much sooner, I am glad I at least took that step when I did. The only time vegetarians irk me is when they aren't willing to learn more. A lot of them don't know any better.
I'd agree with this - I get so bored of the argument 'but I love cheese/chocolate'. Given how many times I had a similar discussion with omni's about bacon butties and surely they must do to?
From what I have seen there are a lot of people who go vegetarian for different reasons other than animal abuse so it's hard to find the ones who really care. Although, I work with three veggies who are 'in it for animals' went for milkshakes (I had a smoothie) and they ordered marshmallows. Told them about gelatin and they both looked at my blankly and continued to order and eat them.
Oh and another veggie at work, apparently in it for the animals. Sat going on about how veganism was a waste of time and they are all just extremists - no point veggie's do all the leg work in stopping meat industry blah blah. I'm not a violent person but I could have smacked her I tell ya. When she stopped talking I did kindly told her I was vegan and why she was wrong ;)
I prefer to talk veganism with omni's than veggie's much for the reasons stated above. I find they have more of an open mind. But again sweeping generalisation and I once was a veggie.
I have been a vegetarian for 2 years now and throughout was very open to "experimenting" with vegan food with the guidance of a close friend who became vegan around the same time. Recently, I decided to try out a strict vegan diet. As someone who has identified herself as a vegetarian until very recently, I have to say that I found some of the previous posts to be somewhat offensive. I obviously have great respect for vegans, having a number of vegan friends, but I do not believe that vegetarians deserve any less respect--one's diet being a personal choice, for one thing. And for another, many posts have largely portrayed vegetarians as "unenlightened" or unconcerned with animal welfare.
I think for many who have been vegan for a number of years, it is hard to understand where the vegetarian is coming from. For me personally, I did not go vegan sooner for a number of reasons, perhaps largely a result of naivety. As a number of people have responded to this thread, many vegetarians simply do not know the suffering that the animals experience for the sake of milk and eggs. I know I didn't until I really started to do my research (including reading "Eating Animals," which I would strongly recommend to anyone who hasn't read it yet.) Also, becoming vegan when you have been raised on a typical "meat-eaters diet" is a very scary step for many. I think on many levels I put off trying out a vegan lifestyle thinking that I would be ashamed if I was unable to follow through. You also have to take into consideration where one lives. I myself live on Long Island, a place that does not provide easy access to vegan food and certainly views even vegetarianism as simply a radical ideology or a trend. Given all the mockery I was subjected to for becoming vegetarian, the idea of becoming vegan was almost unfathomable to me for some time. And this is not to say that I didn't care enough about animals to overcome all of these factors. In fact, animal suffering was my sole motivation for becoming vegetarian, even before I recognized the negative impact eating meat has on human health and the negative impact that the actions of factory farms have on the environment as a whole.
Point being:
1) Vegetarianism does still make a difference (though perhaps smaller) for the animals, the environment, and human health;
2) It is not fair to judge vegetarians as morally inferior to vegans when you do not know the circumstances or the logic behind the choice to be vegetarian rather than vegan; and
3) Having a positive outlook and presenting the facts in a non-judgmental way is a much more effective means of helping meat-eaters and vegetarians to see the benefits of a vegan lifestyle and it is comments like some that I have read here that generally lead omnivores to view vegans, and vegetarians, as self-righteous snobs--ultimately turning them off to the idea of giving up meat.
Just a thought.
It's not personal when it involves others. Would you call rape, slavery, violence, abuse, theft, abduction, eugenics... done do others a personal choice? Or only when it involves non-human animals but not when it involves human animals.
How about the enslavement and exploitation of other species? Regardless about human health or the environment that should be enough reason to be vegan. It reads a whole lot like the typical excuses and justifications vegetarians make to be honest.
I can't imagine Long Island being an any harder place to be vegan than where most of the rest of us live...
www.meetup.com/Vegan-Long-Island/
http://www.happycow.net/gmaps/search...land&lat=&lon=
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/29/ny.../29dineli.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/09/ny...h-variety.html
Not killing people when driving drunk but only injuring them makes a difference as well, doesn't justify driving around drunk though.
Information has never been so easy to access as today. If so many vegans managed to become vegan before the internet was here, what logic and circumstances are you hiding behind to justify not being vegan?
I'm sure nobody is abusing others or is continue to abuse others because a vegan was mean to them. It's just one more excuse and justification they use. After jokingly stating that "meat tastes so good" they start with name calling like "self-righteous extremists snobs" to defend their behavior. If you don't have any solid arguments why animal exploitation is morally better or just than all you have is dumb jokes and insults.
I don't know why your first post on a vegan forum, right after joining it, would be to defend vegetarians if you have the intention of living a vegan lifestyle (I hope you don't just do a vegan diet, because then you might still find comments about that which you might not like).
I don't know about that. All the spent chickens and spent cows and male calves are killed anyway. If there is no demand for the meat the prices will drop resulting in cheaper meat. Cheaper meat probably results in an increase in demand as more people can afford larger quantities of it. Also things as ready-meals might see an increase in the portion of meat used in them if meat becomes the cheaper ingredient. And McDonald's might do more promotions for 1$ meals if they can still make a profit on it because of the lower cost price, promotions like that undoubtedly increases demand.
So the 'net profit' of vegetarianism might be completely cancelled out by the supply and demand mechanism. Not demanding any parts of the animals is the only thing that makes sense.
Although I agree with CoolCat that having a diet which causes suffering and death for others is an action which clearly goes beyond the 'personal' sphere only, I can see that some vegans have a very judgmental, patronizing and holier-than-thou approach to non-vegans - which I'm sure can turn people's (potential) interest in going vegan off.
True, but there's a dilemma baked into that fact. Some lacto-vegetarians use more animal products than the average omnivore: they don't know much about nutrition (B12, calcium, protein etc), and therefore compensate for the nutrients they don't yet get from non-animal sources with very large amounts cheese, milk, eggs, yogurt and so on. At the same time, they feel that they are making a lot of difference, which can contribute to never going further than just lacto(-ovo)-vegetarianism.
In one way, it's never fair to judge anyone: There's always a reason why people do what they do.Quote:
2) It is not fair to judge vegetarians as morally inferior to vegans when you do not know the circumstances or the logic behind the choice to be vegetarian rather than vegan; and [...]
My feeling is that practically no vegetarians ever promote the use of eggs, dairy products or leather/fur etc. They just use these products out of old habits, so you won't see a lot of 'logic' behind the decision to keep using some animal products. In most cases, I don't think a conscious decision to keep using these products even exists.
Have you ever seen a lacto-vegetarian hand out pamphlets encouraging people to use dairy products, eggs or leather? Neither have I....
A positive outlook is often a lot more successful approach than a negative one. At the same time: This isn't only about the "benefits of a vegan diet". When the vegan movement was born in the 1940s, there weren't any known benefits of eating vegan at all: Donald Watson once said that he "hoped" that a vegan diet at least was as healthy as a standard diet.Quote:
3) Having a positive outlook and presenting the facts in a non-judgmental way is a much more effective means of helping meat-eaters and vegetarians to see the benefits of a vegan lifestyle
But being judgmental against people is different from condemning the many torture-like processes animals in the meat and dairy industry have to go through in order to 'become food' (and leather etc). If we for a second ignore the now known health benefits of going vegan and focus on the suffering, stress, pain and unhappiness these animal go through, a suggestion about being more positive and non-judgmental makes a little less sense, just like it would be kind of strange to ask someone who are campaigning against rape, violence against children or political torture to smile more and try to appear more 'positive'. I still agree that a judgmental approach against new/potential (or even existing) vegans often can result in these people losing interest in a vegan lifestyle.
Please post some examples.Quote:
it is comments like some that I have read here that generally lead omnivores to view vegans, and vegetarians, as self-righteous snobs--ultimately turning them off to the idea of giving up meat.
The number of people who went vegan before internet was actually quote low. There's a lot of info about vegan food and veganism on the net now: it's easy to access, but that doesn't make much of a difference if people don't try to access it.
But I don't think difficult vs non-difficult is so important: what matters is if people think it's difficult or not. And if they really do think it's difficult, it won't make much difference if a bunch of brilliant vegans on some remote forum agree that it's easy.
People have a tendency of 'grouping' thoughts. Some even think that if they can't be perfect vegans, there's no reason to avoid animal products at all. If they see vegans as a neurotic-obsessive lot who fail to see that there are others out there who in many ways make sense - and make a difference - too, they may just focus less on the idea of avoiding animal products altogether.Quote:
I'm sure nobody is abusing others or is continue to abuse others because a vegan was mean to them.
There's a reason TV commercials work - including those commercials who don't mention anything about the quality of a product: people like to associate themselves with 'something' nice/good, or with a group of people they like/can identify themselves with. That's why these commercials use models to sell both cars and chicken burgers.
If vegans repeatedly state the obvious, claim that no others make sense, or keep using a off-putting vocabulary (we have a member who have called meat eaters "necrotarians" in many posts lately), we may be executing the opposite of the TV commercial effect, and stand out as someone they don't like even before they have consider if going vegan is something they agree in.
The thing about 'personal choice' may be a way of defending/justifying a lacto-vegetarian lifestyle, but other than that, it seems like krihu is saying the same thing many vegans say (when talking about why they used to use animal products in the past).Quote:
I don't know why your first post on a vegan forum, right after joining it, would be to defend vegetarians
CoolCat To Krihu:
CoolCat to me:Quote:
I hope you don't just do a vegan diet, because then you might still find comments about that which you might not like
You're stating the obvious here.... ;-)Quote:
Not demanding any parts of the animals is the only thing that makes sense.
Krihu: I partially agree with you. I have had to moderate posts and accounts, a number of times, from vegans who keep yelling at others - including yelling at fellow vegans. Vegans may be irrational, impatient, tired, confused and arrogant - just like non-vegans. But my feeling, after having run this site for almost 9 years, that almost all vegans belong in the other category, and clearly understand why many people use animal products. After all, most of us were non-vegans before we became vegans, so it shouldn't be that hard, really, to have a non-judgmental approach to people who think and do what we used to think and do earlier - even if we are against some of their actions.
ETA:
PS - There's a reason why this subforum is called "Vegetarians and ex-vegans - welcome!"
I can portray a happy cheery vegan and be part of the lovely bunch and be cool to hang out with... just until the rape and abuse starts, then I turn bitter, disappointed and sad. :(
I agree that a way to reach the masses is to dumb things down to a ridiculous level as advertisements indeed proves over and over. There is a cheese here that has the most awful advertisement (http://www.ina.fr/pub/alimentation-b...-molle.fr.html). They act like their cheese is made from wheat, removing the role cows played completely. There is even a picture of a wheat field on the label and in the TV ad a round patch of wheat morphs into the cheese. The worst part is that people indeed actually buy into this crap and happy image. But not exploiting others can't be in a constant competition with exploiting them. Unless you have a market monopoly like some big companies have, being one of many choices is a never ending battle for market share. And being vegan isn't just a choice, it's a bare minimum.
Removing the ethics from vegan message and just portraying it as some cool thing to do might win over a few people, but do those really matter if the message is lost? Feminists didn't say "chicks are cool, come hang out with us" to get equal rights, they spoke their mind and told the rest what is wrong. And it worked, well is working... not quite there yet in many places.
No vegans would agree in removing ethics from the vegan message.Quote:
Removing the ethics from vegan message and just portraying it as some cool thing to do might win over a few people, but do those really matter if the message is lost?
No, and hopefully no vegans do that either. I was talking about the opposite: that some vegans - with or without knowing it - portray vegans as something extremely uncool - by being rude, insulting and arrogant against people who live and think exactly like these vegans did only a few months or years ago.Quote:
Feminists didn't say "chicks are cool, come hang out with us"
The whole thing reminds me a bit of some people who just quit smoking, who are way more sensitive towards - and annoyed by - the smell of tobacco than the average non-smoker is.
Less than a week ago, one of our members wrote "I don't respect the opinion of any necrotarian "expert". You can't think clearly unless you're vegan." If I would have been a non-vegan and read that, and thereby get the impression that (some) vegans think that they are the only people pn the planet who can think 'clearly' and saw me as a 'necrotarian', I doubt that my interest in veganism would increase.
Same here. I was a meat-eater for many years because of naivety. I never made the connection between killing an animal that I would never kill and buying the meat in supermarkets. We aren't talking about this in this thread per se. -- I'm sure that everyone can agree that we are talking about the vegetarians that know about where their dairy is coming from, how calves get killed for veal and still continue to consume dairy despite of the truth.
Most vegans view vegetarians and meat-eaters as inferior(we have no respect for you) because meat-eaters and vegetarians have no respect for our decisions, they continue to put us down for making our own independent decisions and continue to disrespect us by preventing us vegans from following the forbidden path, the correct path. We vegans are not sheeple anymore. Understand it and you will see where we are coming from.
Maybe vegans also subconsciously have no respect for vegetarians because VEGetarian seems to stand for eating plants, not dairy. Vegetarianism should be renamed to dairytarianism.
Meat-eaters and vegetarians are the ones with psychological problems. The fear of making mistakes and learning from them. The fear of discovering and experimenting. The fear of jumping out of their comfort zone. Of course you stated some of these same statements with different words. We vegans were in these same shoes; we speak from experience.
My understanding is that the term 'vegan' is a relatively new one. That vegetarianism (which used to be what we now call veganism) got hi-jacked by dairy eaters to such a degree that a new term was needed to differentiate those who stuck to the original vegetarian principles from them.
If the current trend of fish and white meat eaters claiming the vegetarian flag continues there may have to be further redefinitions would be my prediction.
This is probably not dissimilar to how the 'flag' of marriage (originaly a life long contract, strictly twix a man and a woman, with death the only let out clause) has been hi-jacked and become something totaly unrecognisable from the original principles by which it gained it's reputation.
Back when i was very little vegetarians were green people, aliens who like vegetables. One day I burst out laughing when i suddenly realised i was getting green too and got strange glances in my direction (i was in the health/veg section of the supermarket).
More seriously, i know in France it's a really hard task because our cooking is based on traditions, there are so many ways of cooking meat that we forget what meat is, and not eating meat is near impossible, it's like we put our health in danger and we're irresponsible. Making people change views is hard, from my point of vue things are better now that nature is fashionable again, but there is still a lot of preconceived ideas on vegetarians.
The problem is, when we hear about vegetarians it's about shock campaigns, people advocating against eating foie gras at Christmas or wearing fur coats. I don't like aggressive actions, it rubs me the wrong way because i feel like the message is shoved down my throat, and there really is no need because i share the same opinion. I'm not sure this kind of action has a positive long term effect. Plus the rest of the time, nothing. Unless you already are vegetarian/vegan, the mass public doesn't really have an easy access to positive information on the subject, i found recently a few health/organic living magazines with an article about vegetarians, and it's always looked upon through the lens of lacks of vitamins or minerals. A cause for concern of course, but you don't get this frequently in animal based cooking. It feels like you have to prove, justify yourself, and i don't see why i should. So i don't like much those vegetarian french militants who make my daily life slightly harder when i get into a conversation about being veg.
Plus i also have this food intolerance issue that fell on my head when i was diagnosed about 2 years ago, so that infamous question about "so, what do you eat exactly?" gets asked more often now, especially considering i'm quite open minded on the subject. So i have to compromise between what my body thinks is poison, and what i don't want to eat but is safe on a health level. I recently went on a weekend with friends, and when you have to pack a few survival things and pay for the rest of the food bought for the weekend, it feels a bit frustrating because the others have an easier life.
Coolcat:
Yes, it is a personal choice. And all of those things you mentioned are "personal choices" on some level. People CHOOSE to do those things to others. The difference is there are laws in place to protect people from rape, slavery, violence, and the like. Unfortunately, the laws that do exist for the sake of animal welfare are rarely enforced because a large percentage of the world's population does not care about the suffering animals endure for the sake of their food. That does not change the fact that it is a personal choice and no one can tell you what to put to in YOUR body.
You must have missed my point: I AM vegan. It took me 2 years, yes, but the knowledge that I have now of the practices used to obtain dairy products was enough motivation for me to make the change. I never said that I needed the reasons of human health or environmental protection as justification for becoming vegan. Those just further enforce my decision.
And perhaps Long Island isn't the hardest place to be vegan, but I will say I have only been able to find about three exclusively vegan restaurants. Otherwise, I'm constantly asking what's in this or that anytime I go to a restaurant. Regardless, in saying that, I was simply making the point that it is unfair to make a blanket statement about vegetarians since you do not know everyone's individual circumstances, just as I would not make a blanket statement about vegans based on the judgment I just received from you.
That entire response is a perfect example of what I was talking about in the first place. Vegans and vegetarians are fighting for the same cause and should do so together, not spend time attacking one another. My point really was that the small percentage of vegans who only portray judgment and belief of moral superiority turn off potential vegans (whether they be vegetarians or omnivores) because people begin to think of veganism as a trend or something that people use to set themselves apart from others so that they may feel superior. I know because I used to be one of those people. No one is suggesting that you or anyone else be a sunny, smiley vegan who portrays veganism as a "cool" thing to do, I am simply saying that kind encouragement goes a lot further than outright judgment.
I would kill for three exclusively vegan places nearby. We have none :(
Medical reasons aside of people who need meds and stuff, people that choose to use eggs, milk, fish, get a blanket statement about that, just like the pedophiles get one, or the rapists, or the murderers. I don't know what someones motivation is to touch small boys, rape women or kill others and I simply don't care to be honest. When you deliberately cause harm to others when you could have easily avoided it I have not much sympathy for you, but more so for the victim.
I don't think vegans and vegetarians are fighting the same cause at all. Otherwise vegetarians wouldn't be part of the problem or be prolonging it. With promoting eggs, cheese, milk, honey, they are actually contributing to the problem, not trying to solve it. Vegetarians have more in common with the omni crowd than with the vegan bunch.
Being vegan isn't an elitist club... if anyone thinks it's about superiority and they want to be included all they have to do is go vegan. If people turn away from veganism because "they are a self righteous bunch that act moral superior" or "vegans are mean" then they are just making excuses. You can be perfectly vegan without labeling yourself as such or seeking any contact with other vegans. It's just excuses to continue to harm others without wanting to be accountable for their own actions, and worse: blaming it on vegans. We can't go pat people on the back for begin vegetarian, or say "no worries dude, enjoy your steak"... If we come across as moral superior maybe that is because the person looking at us has conflicts within their own ethics. If you don't want to be judge for not being vegan, go vegan. It's that simple... :)
If they are ethical vegetarians, i am happy for them. The way i tend to see it, even with meat eaters, is that we were all (cepts lifelong ones vegans) omnivores at one point, just check out Why weren't you vegan before you were vegan. Nobody here is saying that eating animal products is justifiable, it is NOT.
But it was 16 years before i went vegetarian, and the reason i was omni before was ignorant rationalizations. I didn't go vegan for a few years simply out of the similar ignorance and thinking it was "enough" (though i rarely if ever ate eggs or milk). Once a friend of mine (vegan) turned me on to the cruelty in the dairy and egg industries, i made the declaration that i was vegan for good.
My point is along the lines of many other responders. Vegetarians for ethical reasons are people who don't know a piece of information that would probably convince them to go vegan. Even if it took time and they did know of cruelty but weren't strong enough, if we give them the benefit of the doubt and see them as allies not enemies we will better be able to help them go vegan.