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Re: What do vegans have against quick, momentary killing of animals?
It's weird isn't it. Were you a meat eater at any phase of your life? For me, I tried to come up with the same arguments until my vegan friend politely told me the reasons why he's vegan. Admittedly, I didn't (want to?) believe him, so I looked on the internet and was proved utterly that he was right.
So I went veggie.
Then vegan a bit later.
I think for a lot of human beings they'll go veggie or vegan, when it's easier to change their lifestyle, than it is to live with the guilt of their actions. They'll only feel guilty if they have looked into the truth and not buried their head in the sand.
I've started using reverse psychology - "Why don't you eat chicken?" - "I had a look on the internet about chicken farms, but you don't really want to know. It's too awful for words. If I told you you'd be horrified, so best not to look".
Curiosity gets the better of them every time ;)
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Re: What do vegans have against quick, momentary killing of animals?
That's a good approach Purple!
Yes, I was a meat eater up until the age of 16, and I certainly 'buried my head in the sand' about the reality of it. Then one day, I had to confront who I really was.
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Re: What do vegans have against quick, momentary killing of animals?
Hm. It seems a little futile carrying on this discussion as the initiator is no longer here, but there are a few interesting points I'd like to throw my two cents in on.
Firstly, the age-old "argument" of being stranded on a desert island, with nothing to eat. Would you kill an animal to eat it?
There isn't too much logic in the question to begin with - every animal needs sustenance that somewhere down the line comes from plant matter. If a pig/rat/bird/tiger can survive - then there is certainly more than enough plant matter in the form of seeds/nuts/leaves/fruits to sustain one human being.
However, the point I'd like to make is that in this very hypothetical scenario where one must kill an animal and eat if to survive, of course I would. I'd like to think that my life and actions are making a positive impact on the world, albeit in perhaps small ways. If I was to die a pointless death of starvation for the sake of my morals, what use would that be to the world? I'd like to think I could kill, repent, then continue to live and strive to make positive changes in society. No, I wouldn't enjoy the process, and yes, it probably would make me feel sick with guilt. But I'd make up for it and make that little piggy's death worthwhile by raising awareness to animal rights issues, and doing my bit to try to help stop factory farming and the like.
The second point I'd like to make re: eating roadkill. It is a little icky, but who are we to judge someone who wants to try and make something positive out of the tragic death of a deer? I certainly wouldn't eat it, but I don't think we can fault those who do, or wish them any harm. They didn't hurt the deer or wish it dead, so as far as I can see, they didn't commit any sort of injustice. If I was to die in a nasty way, I'd hope that someone would benefit in some way from it, whether it be from obtaining a tasty nutritious meal, or receiving my organs in order to live.
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Re: What do vegans have against quick, momentary killing of animals?
The 'stuck on an island with a chicken' argument is pure crap. If the chicken can eat, so can I. If he can't, what's the point in me eating him and prolonging my death on that biological wasteland?
Dumb omnis. There is no justification for a non-vegan diet. Their excuses reek of guilt.
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Re: What do vegans have against quick, momentary killing of animals?
Hi veganavenger!
You may not find many vegans that considers eating the remains of a dead, sentient being 'something positive' - even if it's it killed in a car accident - but I agree that continuing this thread is a bit futile (both because the original poster isn't here and because the thread has gone a little off topic), so I'll close the thread soon - just start a new thread about the other topics in one of the other subforums if you want to...
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Re: What do vegans have against quick, momentary killing of animals?
Quote:
Korn
Re. discussing with non-vegans in this section, we could probably change some settings, and make the Not A Vegan-section invisible for people who don't want to see it, but still leave it visible for newbies, occasional visitors and search engines.
I have done this now. If you go to your User Control Panel, and look for Group Memberships (here), you'll see an option called 'View Not A Vegan Yet-subforums' with a button next to it.
By clicking on Leave Group (and then, Leave Group once again, below that section), the Not A Vegan/New Vegan-section will not be visible anymore, and be listed as 'Private' instead. Go back to Group Memberships again later if you want to join the group (and thereby see the Not A Vegan-area) again...
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Re: What do vegans have against quick, momentary killing of animals?
I think the forum is very good in this respect, keeping most of it a safe and supportive place for true vegans, with just a small section for debate with non-vegans. I think you get the balance just right Korn by keeping them out of the main areas.
I've been on AR boards where you get lots of trolls who say they support AR but then go on to say they will not even go veggie, let alone vegan, and yet these fake AR ppl are not even confined to a special section of the forum!
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Re: What do vegans have against quick, momentary killing of animals?
The suggestion that meat eaters could hunt for their own food - as an alternative to factory farming - came up in another thread recently (in the section where non-vegans can post).
I also, again, came across some links showing how many animals which actually are killed for food every year:
http://animalrights.about.com/od/ani...Are-Killed.htm
http://animaldeathcount.blogspot.com/
The idea that non-vegans should go hunting for their own food is rather bizarre. There aren't that many wild animals out there, and the number would be reduced drastically very soon if meat eaters should hunt for their own food. Also, forests and jungles would become 'war zones'. It wouldn't only be the end of taking a walk 'in nature' due to all the noise from the guns (imagine eg. 300 million Americans being regularly fed by wild animals), it would be really dangerous to spend time in such areas, and more accidents would happen with humans as well.
Wild animals are afraid of humans (for a good reason), and would of course try to escape. They are usually faster than us, and often have eyes/ears and a sense of smell which is way more developed than ours. Still, many would animals would be killed, but *not* killed momentary. Many would suffer, and many of the wild animals' children/parents would be left alone.
Besides - aren't there hunting seasons in most Western countries? If eg. almost the 300 million meat eaters in US should live off wild animals throughout the year, would hunting have to be something which happened all year long?
The most ridiculous thing is of course that the numbers don't match. There are too many humans/too few animals out there to satiisfy humans' desire for meat by hunting wild animals. One of the reasons factory farms do exist, is that they use all kinds of methods (like eg. mechanical mass killing of chicken) to make the production of animal products more efficient. Hunting wouldn't even be remotely close to that level of efficiency.
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Re: What do vegans have against quick, momentary killing of animals?
Here are some other arguments against the idea that humans should start go hunting instead of buying meat from the meat industry:
HUNTING ACCIDENTS
Quote:
2011
October
CA: Sheriff: Fresno hunter accidentally killed nephew
LA: Father and son shot while hunting, ruled accidental
OR: Gresham man hurt on solo bow-hunting trip rescued at Columbia River Gorge
ID: Idaho Elk Hunter Attacked by Bear Near Yellowstone Park
AK: Injured hunter rescued in Delta Junction area
AK: Body of missing Chalkyitsik hunter found
MI: Hunter, 49, dies of gunshot wound underneath hunting platform
September
WI: Appleton man was shot in face while hunting
FL: Hunter shoots himself in foot with crossbow, becomes pinned to ATV
MI: Mackinac County Michigan Bear Hunter Injured by Black Bear
KY: Missing Hunter Found Dead in Woods
HI: Pig-hunting teen hurt in fall grateful for help
FL: Man shot in foot during Blue Sprig squirrel hunt
AK: James Monroe Suffers Fatal Fall While Hunting in Halibut Bay
SD: 13-year-old girl dies from hunting accident
AK: Donald Sanford Hospitalized After Alaska Bear Mauling
AK: Hunter missing near Port Dick
UT: 9-year-old shot in hunting accident up Logan Canyon
AK: Nushagak River search finds no sign of missing hunting guide
AK: Fairbanks woman dies when ATV flips on rutted trail, machine lands on top of her
PA: Woman, dog shot while walking near Mt. Gretna
MT: Steve Stevenson, Hunter, Dies In Montana After Wounded Grizzly Bear Attacks
August
MS: Hunter shoots another hunter and keeps hunting...Low birds: A little salty about getting peppered
FL: Larry Leonard, popular Mason Elementary staffer, dies falling from hunting tree stand
NY: Area teen accidentally shot while hunting woodchucks
TX: Women air-lifted after accidental shooting
MN: Woman shot by teen squirrel hunter
CA: Sonoma hunter hospitalized after wild pig attack
July
TN: Holcomb recovery from hunting accident 'a blessing'
NH: Teen shot in throat hunting coyotes
Hunter critically wounded in accidental shooting of self
June
OK: Teen shot while hunting
NY: Rattlesnake bites Morris man during roundup
FL: Trapper bitten by caged bear in Franklin County
NC: Amputation after hunting accident
May
Man Shot in Hunting Accident
Rusk County TX man killed in 4-wheeler accident while hunting
Nine-year-old Texas girl fatally shot in hunting accident
Pennsylvania hunter accidentally kills himself in Westmoreland
Buffalo Township deer hunter pleads no contest in injury
Canajoharie NY man charged after accidental turkey hunting shooting injures two hunters
Two charged after New York turkey hunting accident
Hunting accident claims Butte MT boy
Firsthand account: Turkey hunter shot by a trespasser
17 Kansas Hunting Incidents in 2010
AK: 9-year old kills 11-year-old while hunting
Grizzly Severely Mauls Alaska Bear Hunter
IN: Man shot during turkey hunting
Maine turkey hunter wounded in Hollis on opening day
ME: Hunter shot on opening day of turkey season
MO: Hunter Shot In The Head
NY: Hunter hurt while turkey hunting
VA: 10-year-old shot by uncle while hunting in Alleghany County
WV: Boone Hunter Released From Hospital
April
5-year-old Boy shot while hunting with dad in Wisconsin
AR: Hunter accidentally kills himself in Conway County
AR: Missing hunter found dead
IN: Missing hunter from Pendleton found dead
IL: Cat Recovering After Being Shot With An Arrow
IL: Hunter sues tree stand manufacturer
IL: One hunter accidentally shoots second outside Alton
Iowa DNR investigates possible shooting in Woodbury County
Man dies in Florida fishing accident
Man Shot While Turkey Hunting in Gallia County, Ohio
MO: 16-year-old killed while hunting
MT: Teen's death while hunting remains open case
ND: The bodies of two missing beaver hunters have been found
TN: turkey hunter accidentally shot, then abandoned by a fellow hunter
TX: Kleberg County sheriff: Shooting was a hunting accident
VA: Officers investigating shooting of teen hunter near Fincastle
WA: Milton-Freewater man wounded in hunting accident
WI: Hunter dies while hunting coyotes
February
CO: Man shoots himself while hunting
FL: Hunter suffers fatal fall from tree stand in Wesley Chapel
FL: Hog Hunter Shot by Fellow Hunter at Green Swamp West WMA
KS: Man Dies In Crash While Hunting
LA: Arrest made after police find body
MS: 18-Year-Old Shot While Hunting In Copiah County
MS: Five rescued after boat sinks during hunting trip
MS: Man Accidentally Shoots Partner During Hunting Trip
NC: Two NC Boys Killed In Separate Squirrel-Hunting Accidents
NC: Teenager fatally shot after gun goes off in hunting accident
NJ: hunter shot in face, but not seriously injured
Oh Deer: Hunting Accident Dings Trib Reporter
TX: Kerrville pastor dies on hunting trip
January
Alabama deaths from tree stand falls reach all-time high
AL: Hunter Injured In 30-Foot Fall From Tree Stand
AL: Hunter dies after 20-foot fall in New Market
AL: Prattville man dies in hunting accident
Army Captain killed by hunter in NC
Boating accident injures two men on Belle River
CA: When Hunting Gets Too Dangerous For Your Dog
CO: 8-year-old boy killed in hunting accident
FL: Man and dog shot by hunter
GA: Hunter missing in Lowndes Co. pond
GA: Man Killed in Hunting Accident in Bulloch County
HI: Police search for missing hunter
IA: Retired Muscatine Police officer falls from deer stand
Iowa hunter injured Saturday in Ringgold County
KY: Hunting accident kills Casey man
Louisiana man dies hunting with friends in Copiah County
MD: ASSATEAGUE: Wild horse shot during deer hunt
MS: Hunter rescued after stand collapses
MS: Man dies in hunting accident
NC: Hunter, 17, Accidentally Shoots Self in Davidson County
NC: Hunter clings to kayak, survives
NC Trapper bitten by trapped red wolf
NE: 8 Hunting-Related Incidents Reported in 2010
NM: Hunter hospitalized after shooting himself
PA: 2 hunters cited in shooting
PA: Exton hunter found dead in West Vincent woods
PA: Woman Shot By Hunter In Lancaster County
Reverend dies in apparent hunting accident
South Ga. man dies after fall from deer stand in rural Ala.; incident is 3rd this season
TX: One man dead after Rusk County hunting accident
UT: Utah County man shot while hunting pheasants
VA: A deadly season for area hunters
VA: Duck hunter who drowned identified
VA: Man falls on hunt
VA: Man Killed in Louisa Hunting Accident
VA: Vinton Man Injured in Hunting Accident
VA: Virginia Military Institute Cadet died in a hunting accident
WI: Glenwood City man shot by brother during coyote hunt
WI: Hunting accidents
WI: Hunter Shot in Glenwood Township
How Many People are Killed or Injured in Hunting Accidents?
Quote:
According to the International Hunter Education Association, approximately 1,000 people in the US and Canada are accidentally shot by hunters every year, and just under a hundred of those accidents are fatalities. Most victims are hunters, but non-hunters are also sometimes killed or injured. Although some other forms of recreation cause more fatalities, hunting is one of the few activities that endangers the entire community, and not just the willing participants.
The Committee to Abolish Sport Hunting maintains the Hunting Accidents Center site, which collects news stories about hunting accidents throughout the United States. Although the list is long, it's not comprehensive, and not every hunting accident is reported in the news. If you've seen a newspaper article about a hunting accident that is not included in the site, you can submit a report.
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Re: What do vegans have against quick, momentary killing of animals?
HUNTING ACCIDENTS
I probably shouldn't even think 'good' should I? Much less say it....
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Re: What do vegans have against quick, momentary killing of animals?
Quote:
Cece
HUNTING ACCIDENTS
I probably shouldn't even think 'good' should I? Much less say it....
That's true. It would not be showing the compassion that veganism has at its core.
Leedsveg
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Re: What do vegans have against quick, momentary killing of animals?
Personally, I consider humans to be on the same level as animals...so I respect the life of humans and non-human animals. I think hunting is a gross way of demonstrating who is on top of the food chain and who holds more power or whatever. As I was driving up on Sunday I saw so many little dead deer who had been hit by moving vehicles. Granted, I am assuming this occurred in the night hours so perhaps the deer could not be seen crossing the road, but it was a gruesome sight nonetheless. So cruel. People are actually allowed to obtain hunting permits during certain seasons to hunt deer so they don't "over-populate" and become a danger for moving traffic. Talking about deer...one of my aunts actually brought venison for Christmas and New Years. I am so glad my immediate family boycotted eating such meat.
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Re: What do vegans have against quick, momentary killing of animals?
Quote:
leedsveg
That's true. It would not be showing the compassion that veganism has at its core.
Leedsveg
I don't know about that. Veganism isn't about compassion for animals, it's about seeking to end exploitation of animals. A hunter that shoots himself, or another hunter, or gets shots by his dog or the very non-human animal he tries to kill isn't exploitation I think. Whether you find it ironic, good, funny, stupid or a combination of those is just a personal matter. I rather have that veganism is rooted in morals and ethics instead of compassion and "oh you poor little thing"-mindsets because that is probably when welfarist ideas of reduction and "improving the quality of life" of non-human animals sneak in instead of aspiring an abolitionist approach.
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Re: What do vegans have against quick, momentary killing of animals?
Quote:
CoolCat
Veganism isn't about compassion for animals, it's about seeking to end exploitation of animals.
Hi CoolCat
And for what reason would we want to end the exploitation of any animal (be it human-animal or non-human animal)? Compassion, I would say. I imagine that welfarists would say that they have compassion, just as I say, as an abolitionist, that I have compassion. Nothing more that I canreally add to that.
Good wishes
Leedsveg
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Re: What do vegans have against quick, momentary killing of animals?
Veganism is against cruelty to members of the animal kingdom - for any reason.
If we live in a culture where our kids are more or less trained - or even forced - to look at animals as food, and to see hunting as something 'natural' for humans... and 'human animals' are being hurt or killed as a result that culture - a culture they haven't chosen to be born into - that's IMHO plain cruel and tragical.
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Re: What do vegans have against quick, momentary killing of animals?
I don't think shooting yourself qualifies as cruelty. If a stray bullet kills a human that wasn't hunting that would be different of course, then that human would be as victim as any non-human animal getting shot. As for culture, most vegans I know grow up in the same culture as everyone else. You can only shift blame and responsibility that much. There are far more non-vegan people than there are ignorant people.
Leedsveg hmm.. Compassion: Deep awareness of the suffering of another coupled with the wish to relieve it.
In my native language it would mean more something like "sorrow" and "pity"... for me veganism isn't emotional at all, that is what I wanted to get across. But yes compassion works in English.
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Re: What do vegans have against quick, momentary killing of animals?
Whilst I can't say I feel much for adults who kill for a laugh, I definitely wouldn't say "good" in response to that link, considering many of the victims in the links on the page are teenagers and children as young as five, some are simply people out enjoying the countryside and some are non-human animals both wild and domesticated.
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Re: What do vegans have against quick, momentary killing of animals?
Quote:
amosharper
Hi,
I'm not a vegan. I'm not a vegetarian. I do, however, refuse to eat the meat of an animal that has been kept in unsatisfactory conditions, i.e. factory farmed.
I'd like to ask what, specifically, do you have against the killing - that is, quick, momentary killing - of animals?
Thanks,
Amos
i'm not necessarily making an argument, just saying my view here. almost thought there was not a point answering this, but i'll answer it. i just think the lives of animals are just as important as a humans. and even while i say that i'm also thinking about all the times i've picked a flower because even though i like doing it i feel bad about it at the moment. i don't understand why..to you there is a difference between killing an animal quickly and killing a human quickly. i had read some of this page and i really agree with ex-admin saying, theres nothing to sugest animals are here to provide for us.its true. every life is here for its own life. they are not here to meet the needs of humans.
and to ex-admin, i am an aspiring vegan, definitly veggie with no eggs n fish or milk . at the moment i'm trying to learn more about vegan meals.
actually i became well i don't know what kind of eater i am because i only just made the decision not to eat anything with milk in too as well as egg which i decided before. and yesterday i ate some non vegan cake and i feel really bad about it.
but my point was i didn't choose to stop eating meat it just happend, i actually begain to fear meat ( its quite hard to talk about but now , here i have joined a forum that is as i say "not contaminated with it". i actually have to stand outside my flat for an hour because of the meat when it is being cooked (i live with my family )-because i can't stand someone eating an animal,it makes me feel both sick, upset and angry. i just went off it because well i knoww it must feel wrong to kill another thing. and i would be very uncomfortable knowing that a meal of someones, would be at the expense of an animal no matter how they were killed or had their own produce taken from them. like people on this page have said quick momentary killing doesn't make it right.and i think if you know this i can't understand why you would just ignore it..i certainly could not
by the way i'm sorry i'm bad at typing, i just wrote as i thought.
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Re: What do vegans have against quick, momentary killing of animals?
Quote:
amosharper
Hi,
I'm not a vegan. I'm not a vegetarian. I do, however, refuse to eat the meat of an animal that has been kept in unsatisfactory conditions, i.e. factory farmed.
I'd like to ask what, specifically, do you have against the killing - that is, quick, momentary killing - of animals?
Thanks,
Amos
Simple: We have no right to use a creature without it's permission. We definitely have no right to kill an innocent creature. There is no point to it. We can live completely happy, healthy lives without eating flesh. To kill for our appetite is simply selfish.