Well said, Korn.
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Well said, Korn.
Thanks. It is my sensitivity that causes me to object to the following types of statements:Quote:
Mysh
Those of us who are "saints", "holier-than-thou" types, and "perfect vegans" are entitled, on a vegan forum, to politely object to, or disagree with, a person making these statements without being rudely and unfairly characterised as such. Some of the people on this forum take the "rules" of veganism very seriously, and it is unfair to expect people who struggle to maintain their commitment to veganism to simply remain silent.Quote:
Banana
Obviously you suspected that you might disturb someone when making these admissions. What were you planning on doing when someone came out and said they were offended, Banana, besides telling them that you actually care nothing for their thoughts?Quote:
Banana
I guess I could have saved myself a lot of typing is I had put it this way, Mozbee. That basically sums it all up for me. ;)Quote:
Mozbee
Oh my, poor spider. Maybe next time you can put a cup near one and guide it in. Once it is in, cover the cup, take it outside, and release the spider. What if someone thought a dog, like your Odi was gross, and boiled it to death? Would that upset you? Or would it be okay beacuse the person freaked out and thought the dog was gross?Quote:
banana
Thanks Seaside, Mozbee, Kumem, FR and other committed vegans for your posts. :)
Korn, the "grey zone" seems to be getting bigger? :confused:
Banana, you may need to change your signature from:
"I'm not a vegan coz I hate meat - I am a vegan coz I hate vegetables..."
to:
"I'm not a vegan coz I eat animal products - I'm not a vegan coz I don't like labels..." :(
Tell the animals that one. :(
Uh, the animals would not care less as long as they weren't being eaten or used. The animals don't know what the label "vegan" means.Quote:
Cal
And then you go on to take the quotes out of context. Three of these were from the same occasion, which was explained as having nothing to do with not being vegan anymore, but has to do with not calling oneself a vegan due to personal psychological implications. You don't get this for some reason. I'm not sure if you're even trying to.Quote:
Seaside
The honey quote was followed by "I don't personally use it, but if I am in a situation where there is not a lot of choice, and the food is vegan otherwise, I have eaten it." So, that's a little different.
I can't find the spider quote, but I'm sure it was similarly taken out of context.
I like, by the way, that you keep little files of unacceptable quotes from the vegans you don't approve of.
Essentially, I think you're fighting against someone who is on your side. To quote you with a few minor changes, "it is unfair to expect people like Banana, who struggle to maintain their commitment to a cruelty-free lifestyle, to simply remain silent about their challenges and growth."
Hi mike! :)Quote:
mike
Well said!Quote:
rainbow
Why can't you all stop being so bloody judgemental! Until you walk in Banana's shoes - DON'T JUDGE HER!
No wonder so many people get pissed off with this place and leave.
No one is, Roxy. I don't know why that isn't perfectly clear.Quote:
Roxy
You've got to be kidding. Anyway......I'm not getting any further into this. I've said all I want to say on the topic.
Banana has left.
No, the grey zone has always been there, same size and everything - but what it consists of differ from person to person. It has to do with individual interpretations off avoiding harming/killing animals 'as much as possible', doesn't it?Quote:
Korn, the "grey zone" seems to be getting bigger?
I live in a house with windows made of glass. This means that some birds will get killed a few times during my lifetime, because I have decided that my need for windows is more important than the life of these birds. Unless I escape this society and go stoneageism, I'll harm and kill animals, and even then, I'll step on some insects.
Let's not make it taboo to discuss the grey zone and how to deal with it - or pretend it's not there. Also, let's not make it bigger than it is and focus on it all the time.... some people ie. have a tendency to register and let us know all they do that is not vegan, which we don't need to hear. I guess they just want to feel that they're not 'cheating', or sum up for themselves where they are right now before they possible go vegan.
I mentioned three 'grey' areas:
'one is the fact that it's impossible to be a 'perfect vegan' in a non-vegan world'. It is, and this will always cause some thoughts and discussion, for example because because newcomers are surprised to find animal products where they didn't expect to find them. We need to face this, it would be weird to censor these discussions away or pretend that we all always avoid all animal products, or never support any companies or people who put money into the met industry...
'another one is that whatever ideals or goals we have, we're not perfect'. IMO; this is also important not only to accept, but to acknowledge. If we wouldn't, we would get a number of visitors who probably would just leave after a while, because they felt that they weren't able to achieve 'perfect-veganism', while all the others in here appear to be enlightened.
'a third is that in order to live as close to the way you want as long as possible, for a few/some/many (?) people this means that in some situations they may use some tiny amounts of animal products, otherwise, the vegan label would just became a headache for them...'
This is related to the other examples, because in our world, vegans actually don't avoid animal products 'as much as possible'. It's impossible to live in this world and do that. The glass window example is only one of many other I could mention.
There are grey areas, but also, we don't want a site with a main focus on the grey area - we are not heading for a confession club where all of us report evry time we by accident killed an insect when walking or driving a car, or start a thread everytime someone feel like eating something non-vegan (which new vegans sometimes do)...
It's a question of balance, and I don't think we can solve this one by adding some clever new gudielines - but maybe I'm wrong. We just need to improvise a little.
Veganism isn't about denial, guilt or turbo-perfectionism, but for some vegans and others, eating and food IS, even life as such has small or big elements of guilt in it.
Normally, we (?) tend to think that 'it's not important what I think, but what I do'. Somehow I think it all boils down to who we are.
I personally feel more comfortable with people who are dedicated to do their best, but accept that in some situations this doesn't happen or isn't possible or that they have some days/situations where they just aren't doing whatever they can to avoid killing/harming, than people who pretend they are perfect or that there are no grey areas. If we wouldn't accept the grey zone, we could all develop some sort of spiritual anorexia.
We can't expect others to have the same grey areas as ourselves, can we?
This is a site for vegans. The way I feel it, I think it's OK to share issues you have with the grey areas if you feel a need to discuss these topics with other vegans. If we can't talk about these issues with other vegans, who should we talk about them with? (But please use the search engine first!!! :D)
I don't eat honey occasionally or occasionally kill insects intentionally, but if I did, I'd probably not see a need to mention this unless I ie. were considering dropping veganism or wanted to discuss these issues with someone / wanted feedback from others to find out how they felt about these topics.
I haven't read all the posts Banana has written, but I have seen that she has been very open both about her history with eating disorders, and about her issues with using the label 'vegan'. She seem to be serious about dealing with this in the best way she can, and has decided to leave, which in a way is both sad and fair/healthy for her. The following is probably all about by my ego, but I feel more supportive towards Banana than people who appear to be vegan and then go 'what is wrong with eating free-range animals'... I don't know if she has been 'policed' here, or if she is more sensitive than others, or if she simply feels that she isn't a really a vegan. It still feels sad when people leave: I guess it makes us all thing that maybe we could have communicated with each other ways that didn't want to make some people leave or possibly move away from being vegan.
People have left earlier, and will in the future. This is not the first time someone has decided to drop considering themselves vegans.
If everybody who has even been a vegan or vegetarian would have reminded veg*ns, there would have been a lot of us out there.... As people who are against using animal products, I guess addressing why some people decide to NOT call themselves vegan anymore could need some more focus.
I don't think Banana will go back to using more animal products than she has told us that she occasionally does, she is probably just dealing with labels in a way that feels better for her, and that's fine with me.
I'm convinced there are other members who think along the same lines as her: they agree in being vegan, but don't ALWAYS do their best to avoid animal products, and/but they don't share their 'slips' with us... and that's fine with me to.
Please don't throw any stones if you live in a house with glass windows...
I'm sorry that Banana has gone, because it seemed to me that she was rather judgmental of herself with a need to unburden herself of little things that made her feel guilty of her own actions. Never feel guilty about anything, we can only do the best we can, and as we are all different, 'the best' for some people is different to that for others. I hope she comes back when it feels right. :)
Hi Korn
The thing is there is a big difference between unavoidable pain to animal (such as if one flew into your window for example) and making the decison to do something that is not vegan. I won't mention examples, as I think we have all heard them from people in the past.
I do not think that people have been nasty, rude, disrespectful here and a part of me wonders what the fuss is all about :confused:
If anything, some of the responses that people like me have gotten are more disrespectful.
I have suffered extensively with eating disorders. IMO being vegan is easy. I was eating meat less than 6 months ago and haven't struggled, so I do not think there is any correlation between the two and I wouldn't use my past to make me feel better about discarding my morals temporarily.
I am not asking the following question to prolong the issue, but I generally would like an answer to it. As Seaside mentioned, if someone were to come on here and talk about boiling a dog alive for example, would they be banned?
I do not see it as any difference in talking about a spider. I know that this all happened on another thread, but it is pertinent to this as it has been discussed and so have the guidelines. My feelings are that if someone came on here and said that, it would not be seen as such a grey area. This, IMO, goes against everything that veganism stands for. That message upset a lot of people; people who were more upset than Banana probably was for getting a few polite disagreements regarding her actions.
Liz
I partially agree here; I have found Veganism very easy, especially when I consider my past diet. But I guess it is different for everyone. I am amazed to hear people craving foods because I never have done, not yet at least.
As for boiling a dog alive; Although I hate to say it, despite Vegans having a general respect for all life, most of us would find it hard to feel the same emotions for a spider and a dog. For instance, seeing a spider boiled alive wouldn't be all too harroing. As for a dog, there would be screams of pain, an expression filled face and a real essence of fear. There would also be blood. On top of this, many of us here haven't been Vegan all our lives, and many of us will have had pet dogs. As I said, it shouldn;t be the way it is, but we tend to have more attatchement to 'pet' animals. :(
Hi :) The thing is that of course people feel more attachment to their pets or pet animals, but it would be harrowing to see. I would find it harrowing to see anything go through such intense pain - surely everyone can remember what it feels like to put your hand in a bath when theres not enough cold water. It flipping hurts! Imagine that multiplied for 100. I think it is about empathy and I'm not for one minute suggesting you are not empathic Glen, don't get me wrong. What I mean is that I find it really easy to imagine feelings of pain - in fact I have a real pain phobia :)Quote:
Glen
I have only been vegan a short time and have had dogs all my life, but it doesn't detract from my ability to empathise with other forms of life.
If I had to save one of my cats or one of my old dogs over a spider, I would, but that's because I have an emotional connection to that particular animal, not that particular species - do you get what I mean? I'd save my parents over a stranger etc etc. They're no more important in the grand scheme of things, but they're more important to me.
Glen you give me the impression that you can relate to a dogs emotional well-being quite easily. Have you ever contemplated what it's like to be a spider for even a few minutes?Quote:
Glen
It doesn't matter whether us ignorant humans can decipher or recognise their feelings or not (whether they be beetle, snake, whale, lion, dog, fish, eagle, seahorse, spider,...) what matters to them is the preservation of their life.
I can empathise, I wouldn't boil a spider ever lol, I wouldn't have done that prior to being Vegan. But for me, and many others I'm sure, the emotional connection extends to all dogs / pets. Most people would be horrified to see a dead dog in the road, however if it was a fox, most people would barely think twice. Its another of those things that is different for everyone. I can see where you are coming from though, and I can 'feel' a spiders pain, but would find it hard to compare with a dog.
Quote:
Kumem
Yeah, everyone's being so nice and understanding.
You're adding a lot to this discussion. Oh, wait, no you aren't. Just bitter quips that make people feel bad.Quote:
Mozbee
I want to see this other thread, because I'm willing to bet that Banana was talking about it in a way that showed that she felt bad about the incident, and that it was just a knee-jerk reaction. If you're going to talk about it in a way that's damning, might as well link to it, don't you think?Quote:
Kumem
Also, sorry, but Banana belongs on this forum. She was always trying to be cruelty-free, supportive, and loving. This backlash against her for revealing her faults (along with her commitment to being better, even!!!) is pretty sickening.
Mike is there not something a little concerning about the distinct lack of nastiness emitting from threads that people opposed to what Banana did? In comparison with your last three messages, which seemed a little venomous.
I don't like the action she took. I don't dislike her though and it's not mine or anyone elses job to make someone feel better about doing something. This discussion had kind of moved onto to things more general, but you seem to feel the need to bring it up again. Just because you feel the need to offer support to someone, does not mean that everyone will if it something they disagree with.
What is wrong with saying I wouldn't use my past as an excuse to temporarily discard my morals. I simply wouldn't, that's just me. That's not me chastising anyone else, it's just my opinion on what I would or wouldn't do!!! You seem a little defensive on someone elses part over that comment.
You don't know Mozbee, so you may have simply misinterpreted her comments, but there was a wink and a smile there. If you look at other messages by her on this thread, you will see that she has said nothing that was nasty.
As for providing a link to the other thread, that's not my job. If people are interested then they can look or ask where it is. That particular post had a question in it that was directed to Korn, who knows where that thread is. It was not opportunity for me to delve into further arguments relating to this issue. I genuinely wanted an answer.
I note that you are very willing to offer your opinion on the matter, but you have not answered the questions that I asked in that message, so I would argue that you are doing what you accused Mozbee of doing in not adding a lot to the discussion.
Liz
Well said Eve. I do so agree with you.Quote:
eve
Well if that's your interpretation - :cool:
What's wrong with it is that it implies that's what Banana was doing, when she's said she doesn't excuse her actions, and she does not think it was right to eat dairy.Quote:
Kumem
I agree as well.Quote:
Aurora
I can agree with both points of view here. Banana's had a very difficult time lately. I hope that she stays what most people would call a vegan. In fact there are no vegans in this forum. We all deliberately kill insects. We walk in grass and know that when we do so we kill insects. And yet we still choose to walk in grass. We could stay on the path where it's easier to see where our feet are going but we choose to kill insects by walking in the grass. We eat non organic food. Millions of insects are poisoned to bring us our spuds. We choose to be implicated in that slaughter. Some members are married to or live with or go out with meat eaters and, therefore, condone their disgusting and cruel eating habits. That's because we let our emotions get the better of us. A human/animal trait.
I want to stay on good terms with the people on this forum, so I hope that I haven't offended anyone. I'm trying to point out that none of us are perfect. To avoid all harm would mean that we would have to live in a hermit's cell and never go anywhere. It would still be impossible to avoid harm.
There are precious few of us in the world. We need each other.
just as there are no perfect people in the world, neither are there perfect vegans.
we are all trying to do our best.
gliondrach is right, we do need each other.if we turn on each other we are simply breaking down the few exisiting support networks we have, and thats not going to make it easier for anyone to be vegan.
banana was simply being honest in an environment where she felt she would be understood. instead of being supported she was attacked.
i feel really yuck about this whole situation. i will miss banana.
s.carrot.
I think this is really well put and considerate. I don't think that anyone that disagreed with Banana's action dislike her as a person and it has kind of become warped in this whole mess. I'm sure I speak for everyone that disagreed with the actions, rather than Banana as a person, that I wouldn't want to see anyone leave this forum, especially after contributing so much.Quote:
Gliondrach
Yes, I think that's something we can all agree with.Quote:
Kumem
Here it is, and I am only posting this because it was requested. I am not trying to prolong this discussion:Quote:
mike
Here is Cals response:Quote:
Re: How do u feel today?
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I have had high anxiety levels since I got bitten by the spider last Wednesday. I was very sick from it - fever, chills, headaches, nausea, unable to focus my eyes...My house has a big spider problem - there was a gross black one in the sink this morning and I freaked out and washed it down the drain with boiling water. I know this is a vegan forum and I shouldn't kill living things, but I am so frightened of them. I always was, but this has worsened it. Tomorrow I am getting a professional in. I know how unvegan it is, but I don't feel safe in my home. I have had panic attacks every day since I got bitten.
And here is my response:Quote:
Re: How do u feel today?
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Banana, I wish you hadn't posted this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Banana
My house has a big spider problem - there was a gross black one in the sink this morning and I freaked out and washed it down the drain with boiling water.
I saw the post last night and wasn't going to reply but I lay awake for ages thinking about the spider being killed by the boiling water and it made me very sad. Killing animals because of a fear of them is not what I associate with the vegan approach to life. I wish you could have found a more compassionate way to deal with your problem, such as find a person who is not afraid of spiders to relocate him or her.Sorry, I just had to say something, I have always loved spiders.
And later, my other response:Quote:
Re: How do u feel today?
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I gotta agree, Cal.Quote:
Posted by Cal:
Banana, I wish you hadn't posted this.
I feel bad for what you are going through, Banana, but maybe it would be better to keep those kinds of details to yourself, or PM people you are close to if you need to discuss it. It is difficult for me also to think of that spider having boiling water poured on it. I'm not judging what you did, because I don't know what it is like for you, I would just rather not read about it here.
That's all it was ever about for me. I am sorry Banana has left, it was never my wish to see her leave. I understand completely the need for people to find support here.Quote:
Re: How do u feel today?
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Quote:
Posted by foxytina_69:
oh gawd. can we not. *rolls eyes*
who the hell cares. whatever floats your boat. anyways. new topic.
love ya banana
(by the way this isnt directed towards puffin )
Posted by puffin:
I had hoped not to seem hard on Banana, but I wanted to add my voice to Cal's. I feel bad for both Banana and the spider. I can only imagine what Banana has gone through, but I do know how it feels to have boiling water poured on you (child abuse) and it was not a good association for me.Quote:
I think people are being a bit hard on Banana.
I hope there are no hard feelings. There are no easy ways to bring these sorts of things up without hurting someone's feelings, I know.
Why can't support for this kind of stuff be obtained through PMs?
And as far as the glass house analogy, and no one being able to be a perfect vegan, I know that very well. My cats are not vegan. Therefore, I refrain from describing what they eat on a vegan forum for fear of upsetting sensitive people. Is it such a stretch of the imagination to consider that some people might be genuinely upset about these kinds of posts, without having bad feelings about the person making them?
I just think that some things are better to keep to ourselves, and between our friends and supporters.
Quote:
Seaside
Quote:
FR
Quote:
Mozbee
Does nobody here know that there is an "ignore" option that they can use to ignore the posts from a particular member? If people are offended when a member wishes to share their opinion of vegan food, talk about personal faults or struggles, or post messages which may be interpreted by some as promoting non-veganism, then by all means, rather than start a conflict, just ignore the person.Quote:
Kumem
On another note, many of you are saying that Banana should have kept what she did to herself, but don't you think that there are worse things that some of you have said elsewhere on this forum which, by your own rationale, should have been kept to yourselves?
God. I hadn't been following this thread but when I saw nanas goodbye message, I had a look back through some of her last posts and found this.
I do not want a forum where everyone agrees. I want a place where I can be challenged, and where I can find support. What I have seen here is people saying I cannot ask for support in certain circumstances in case it disturbs them.
What I find most surprising is some of the people responsible for this kind of opinion are among those who recently started another forum for vegans and did so because they weren't happy with the way people got attacked for 'not being vegan enough' on some of the threads here.
Well said and you are 100% right. Unless you have experienced the psychological aspect of how food (and a fear of it) can control you...you can never understand how significant it was for her to take this action.Quote:
rainbow
It's not even about it being an animal product but labeling it as "Can't have" or forbidden that can cause more harm. I tried that once and lets just say I had some major, major issues for a while. Now I don't say "I can't have cheese..."
That isn't saying I do. But that if I truly need it for my mental health than I will. It's something indescribable and most people can only look down and criticize instead of being supportive.
That being said, I understand why Banana has left and wish that I could have been able to say "I'm so sorry" to her before she did. Her kindness and spirit will be missed a great deal.
I hate when I leave town for a while and miss important discussions.
~Mel
*blinks*
You all need to listen to more reggae.
:confused:Quote:
miss_laura
I am gobsmacked by this entire thread...........shame when vegans argue between themselves.
Hope banana is OK and happy wherever she is.
(((((((banana))))))))
The quote above was from a thread discussing how to deal with 'slips'. As this is a site for vegans, I think we both need to keep this a 'harm-free', 'kill-free' zone. No reports about boiled dogs, please! We also deal with the fact that we are not perfect and that we have different version of the 'grey area' (that has been discussed elsewhere).Quote:
I just think that some things are better to keep to ourselves, and between our friends and supporters.
As a comment to the quote above, IMO it's important not to forget that this site is MEANT to be act as 'friends and supporters' for our members. That's why I've created this thread:if you feel the need to talk about slips and the 'grey zone' with friends and supporters, please do it here. It's not meant as a confession club where you report every time you feel like eating cheese (if you do), get mad at a mosquito, or suspect that you just consumed ** micrograms of something animal derived.
(In my personal opinion, some vegans seem to spend too much energy on focusing on animal products on a microscopic level, and too little on enjoying the great world of plant foods and all it's brilliant tastes. No, we don't want animal products anywhere, but sometimes we just can't help being exposed to them. IMO it's better to spend two hours on writing a letter to a local newspaper or a letter to your school requesting that they provide proper info on plant based nutrition than spending two hours figure out how to avoid 0.1 mcg [insert disgusting animal product here]. I think this way of helping animals is better for both yourself and for the vegan movement, but again, that's just my personal opinion.)
Maybe I should rename the 'Not A Vegan Yet'-subforum to ''Not A Vegan At The Moment'?
Again, please don't go bananas and post all and every food craving you might have - they're not THAT interesting :).
And please don't go banana and leave the site if you discover that you're not perfect or have problems with being reminded that you're not. :)
This is about the 'grey zone', but we don't all have the same grey zone. If you have a phobia against insects, it might be more difficult for you not go crazy about them than it would be for a buddhist to renounce this world and live in an area with bamboo huts with no glass windows. We're all different.Quote:
Kumem
There is a difference: in our past, we're more used to kill insects than to kill dogs. Not that it really matters, but we need to tune in a little bit to where we all come from, and accept that we're not perfect.Quote:
As Seaside mentioned, if someone were to come on here and talk about boiling a dog alive for example, would they be banned? I do not see it as any difference in talking about a spider.
I once heard an old musician say that some of the things you need in order to become a great musician aren't things you can't achieve by rehearsing, you just need to 'grow into them'. I'm pretty sure that new vegans don't know how gross just watching a food program on TV describing and showing how to cut the meat can be for someone who has been away from meat for many years. Maybe new vegans can't understand these feelings by reading a book.
We don't need to read about boiling dogs or spiders on a vegan forum, but I don't want people to leave because they have issues with being imperfect either. I've just created a thread in the Not A Vegan Yet-area, for people who need to communicate about unintentional, intentional and semi-intenional slips. Let's see how that solution works, and hope that people don't interpret this new thread as an encouragement to post every 'sin' they have done or wanted to do. This isn't about sin at all!Quote:
That message upset a lot of people; people who were more upset than Banana probably was for getting a few polite disagreements regarding her actions.
Just for a great musical interlude, may I offer to all you budding vegans out there the lyrics of -
"Do Anything You Wanna Do" by Eddie & The Hot Rods, please sing along :p :D :rolleyes:
Gonna break out of this city
Leave the people here behind
Looking for adventure
Is the type of life you'll find
Tired of doing day jobs
With no thanks for what I do
I'm sure I must be someone
Now I'm gonna find out who
Why don't you ask them what they expect from you
Why don't you tell them what you are gonna do
You get so lonely
Maybe it's better that way
It ain't you only
And we've got something to say
Do anything you wanna do
Do anything you wanna do
Love Mozbee :cool:
So not 'slips' as in the type of under-clothing...how disappointing...