That eating the eggs at that point and in that situation isn't wrong, but if you do eat the eggs you aren't a vegan.Quote:
Korn
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That eating the eggs at that point and in that situation isn't wrong, but if you do eat the eggs you aren't a vegan.Quote:
Korn
Sure, but why do you think vegans are against eating eggs if they don't think it's wrong? I guess you are a vegan, since you are a member of a forum for vegans! :) Remember, vegans are not against using eggs because they are not vegan, but because they think it's wrong to use eggs.
Hello. I come from a rural background and my mother always kept hens. Hens do eat their own eggs, if a human doesn't swipe them from them before they get the chance to eat them.Quote:
tails4wagging
They lose a lot of calcium, and eating them allows them to reabsorb it along with other nutrients.
I guess they eat all the calcium due to their exaggerated egg production - which is stimulated by humans taking their eggs away from them.
I know, and yes- I am a vegan :)Quote:
Korn
I mean only in this particular sutuation. If you have some rescued hens that lay eggs and there's nothing else to do with them. It's not like in the industry where baby males are killed and the hens have to suffer further horrors and death when their egg-laying days are done. I didn't actually know about the calcium thing though, it seems pretty obvious now that if you take eggs away then they will want to lay more, how foolish of me not to see that! :D So with this new tidbit of information I change my mind, taking their eggs away is wrong if it causes them distress and loss of minerals.
Regardless though, I'm a vegan for my own choices. I think vegans can have differing opinions on what constitutes right and wrong, but the only important thing is that we're all abstaining from all animal products.
Yes, there is (we have discussed this several times already.)Quote:
If you have some rescued hens that lay eggs and there's nothing else to do with them.
Imagine you have a car, a SUV, that cause lot of pollution, and you don't need it, or are against owning one. Now, you could say that 'the car is there, in the garage, so why not use it?', just like you say 'the eggs are there, so why not eat them?', or, to use your words: 'there's nothing else to do with them'.
Just like the car owner can sell or give away his car, you can sell or give away the hens or eggs to someone who otherwise would have bought eggs in a supermarket or free range eggs in a health food store (or hens). By not owning those eggs, you are reducing the numbers of eggs bought by others. If 100,000 people would do the same, and each of these hens are laying a lot of eggs, that's a lot of eggs not sold by the egg industry.
Sure. The limit os only the definition of 'vegan'. 'Vegan' means not using eggs, not because of some old doctrine that vegans have to follow, but because using eggs (from rescued hens or not) is not considered being vegan because vegans find it unethical.Quote:
I think vegans can have differing opinions on what constitutes right and wrong
There is some definition posted somewhere saying that a vegan is "a person who abstains from consuming or using animal-derived foods or products including etc. meat, dairy, eggs" and so on - but that definition is missing the main point: that vegans are doing all this for a reason. Respect for life is an important part of the vegan idea, it's not like the idea to avoid animal products came first, and then vegans just have to follow certain rules. The definition is based on the idea that it is unethical to practice a lifestyle which makes others suffer or die - which is what a vegan does if eats 'his own' eggs (in spite of not needing or wanting to) and therefore causes suffering for the factory hens that are laying the eggs his neighbor eats.Quote:
the only important thing is that we're all abstaining from all animal products.
IndigoSea, To consume another living being or part of a living being would be alien to me, and doing so just because it would otherwise be 'wasted' would not even come into the equation.
You're preachin' to the choir.
I may not sound like the choir, but I just don't think the concepts of right and wrong end at what I do and do not do. I'm not going to be so silly as to say everything I do is right and therefore anyone who does anything else is wrong. I don't see my personal ethics as being a basis by which to judge the rest of the world. No, of course I wouldn't eat eggs- not because I'm some moron who has adopted someone else's ethics because I can't think for myself, but because I came to the realization that using animal and animal-derived products is wrong. :) I'm a vegan because it's what is right by my personal ethics.
That sounds a lot better than 'It's not wrong', if you ask me. :)Quote:
but because I came to the realization that using animal and animal-derived products is wrong.
I was more or less talking about the right/wrong standards of a non-vegan when I said that. Or half asleep :D
I'm glad we got that cleared up IndigoSea, I'm like you, I think for myself and have adopted my own ethics. As far as 'preaching to the choir', I used to go to Church, and believe me the members of the choir were often in need of what was being preached, [not that I'm being judgemental of course :)]
wow, well... how about 'preachin' to the converted' instead? ^-^ Never been to church myself so I don't know who needs preaching to and who doesn't :}
lol, neither do I at times! :)
i haven't really read much of this thread... but my family has two chickens right... we rescued them from death by head-chopping by our neighbours. so they lay eggs, and i am not sure whether to eat them or not.. because we let them run around the yard and feed them some excellent foodstuffs.. and what else is there to do with an egg? i realise that they would much prefer laying actual chicks.... but i am not really sure. i haven't had an egg since vegan-ism.... but i don't really know why i shouldn't..... yet i kinda can..... actually i am just rather confused
Well Rogue, that's kind of gross, I see birds everyday, cardinals, robins, sparrows eggs everyday, and I don't wan't to eat them! Why don't you just let the eggs stay where they are? You don't have to eat them just because they are in front of you, just let them be!
ok, yeah i will stay as i am and not eat them... i must say the thought actually repulses me anyway... so jubbly... *shudder*
Yeah, like Steph says, just leave them where they are. When you really think about it, you are eating the substance that could potentially go on to produce another life!
I think Rogue, we are all so used to seeing eggs as food that it takes a while to realise they are not food, and I'm like you the thought of eating an egg would be horrible!
ok thanks, yeh i totally understand now!!
if you ever get tempted just rememeber what they are. as a friend of mine once put very bluntly, there's no way i'm eating a hen's period! :eek:
haha omg my friend said that tooooo!!!!
Hi guys, not sure if this has been asked before, but I'm having a lot of trouble finding out what 'organic' means when it refers to meat, eggs, milk etc. (I've posted it here because it's to help educate omni's and give them as few excuses as possible!)
The problem is, I don't seem to be able to find out any information. Just "organic is better" and "organic is healthier" and "organic allows chickens to live a more natural life".
But it doesn't ever actually say *why* this is.
People I've spoken to about veganism seem almost tempted by the idea, but then opt out of it and say "well I'll eat organic because that's better for the animals" (of course, they never actually do this).
What I'm really after, is some strong evidence proving how horrific organic meat farming is.
Obviously with eggs you still have the whole male chick/hatchery death conveyor belt thing (I assume, I can't find out for sure but I can't see how that *can't* be the case).
Does anyone have anything related to organic farming as links or something I can read and add to my arsenal to shut these people up? :)
These are people who agree that animal welfare needs improving and are against animal cruelty, but haven't yet come around to the idea that it's wrong to eat them in the first place, regardless of the cruelty aspect.
Apologies if this has been asked, I did a search but didn't find anything.
Organic isn't necessarily better for the animals. They still die. And that's why vegans tend to have a problem with it :)
Veganic however is better for the soil as it allows the soil to have many organisms grow at the same time which is what nature intended.
Whilst it's good to get pesticides and such out of our bodies, consuming Organically reared Animal foods is still going to lead to the same health implications as eating non-organic animal products.
I have no interest in getting Heart Disease, Osteoperosis, Cancers and so on Organic or not.
The guidelines on poultry for UK organic farmers is described here
http://www.organicfood.co.uk/sense/chicken.html
and for beef
http://www.soilassociation.org/web/s...7!OpenDocument
However this site suggests organic labellimg may be becoming meaningless
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...NGMT6QD0H1.DTL
Hi Purple, have you seen our 'Vegans and eggs'-thread?
Re. killing someone for food... when the vegetarian movement was born, all available meat, all eggs were organic. Organic and meat = two different topics, actually. Vegans and vegetarians don't eat meat because the animals are not organic - we just don't see how we have the right to kill an animal (organic or not) and eat it. We should respect others' right to decide if they want to live or become food, and just like humans, animals and birds prefer to live.
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As you say, it's not happy, it's dead. That should be evidence enough! Ask him what he thinks of cannibals who only eat meat from happy humans... :)Quote:
If there was any concrete evidence on organic meat I'm sure he'd listen!
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The fact that 1) they die and 2) the suffer first should be more than enough... Hens aren't meant to produce food for humans, and every time we remove an egg from an organic hen, organic/free-range or not, it produces more eggs, and ends up with over-producing eggs, bleeding etc.
I wouldn't try to 'counter it' - he just doesn't seem to understand that organic-non-organic is a totally different topic, and nobody else can understand it for him. :)
That (his comment) is the most classical of all non-vegan comments: "I don't have a problem with animals suffering"... The most important point is that they (the animals) have 'problems', not if he has problems or not!Quote:
He has no issues with them being dead
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Cheers for the responses guys! Just checked out the organic chicken link. Still no information on how much space they get (other than they're allowed out) and obviously zero information on how they're killed. Are they still killed using the process as mention before? (electrocution, boiling water etc).
Obviously, I totally get that you shouldn't eat animals regardless. I guess what partly sparked this was that silly BBC thing about veggies eating organic meat :rolleyes:
Are organic chickens ever de-beaked?
Its not relevant in a vegan sense whether meat, milks or eggs are organic or not. Vegans don't use animal products.
Yeah I noticed that. So they basically have 40 times more space than a battery/free-range chicken? (which isn't much).
I might have explained myself badly. I'm Vegan, I don't plan on eating any meat/dairy/eggs, organic or otherwise - ever.
I'm merely trying to get as much information about organic farming (the more negative the better) so that when the non-vegans say "what's wrong with organic meat?" I can tell them.
Telling them "eating meat is wrong" doesn't work. Listing all the reasons why organic meat is merely the food industry pulling a fast one, and it's still not much 'better', works more.
Cheers for the help though Worm Wood. All I need to do now is find out how big a "shed" is, and divide that by 1,000 :)
Have there been any under-cover investigations of organic meat/dairy farms and discovered any 'shocking truths'? (like all those other videos that work so well). I had a look at home, but couldn't find much. Maybe I'll hit you tube when I get home tonight.
I don't know about other countries, but in the U.S., "organic" doesn't mean dip squat in regards to how the animals were treated. It means no hormones or other unnatural substances were used in feeding/raising the animals.
Free-range tries to mean that the animals were not caged and had room to roam, but the term is not regulated. Nor is humane, cage-free, or anything like that. So when you see it on the package, you can't be sure the animal was "happy."
And, as many have pointed out, organic, free-range, or whatever, it's still dead. Or, in the case of eggs, they were stolen. (Chickens don't lay eggs for us to use.) My leading a happy life doesn't make it OK to shoot me in the head and eat my carcass. And just because I'm not using my ova doesn't mean they're here for others to take without my permission.
I don't have an ethical issue with eating eggs that are produced by chickens in genuine organic and free range conditions, that are well cared for and are never slaughtered, but I still almost certainly wouldn't eat them if the opportunity arose. I think it's that I don't really perceive them as food anymore, likewise with dairy, honey and meat.