Not allowed! Kept! Surely this is frustrating one of the hen's most fundamental instincts, to reproduce ??Quote:
Shisha Fiend
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Not allowed! Kept! Surely this is frustrating one of the hen's most fundamental instincts, to reproduce ??Quote:
Shisha Fiend
Yeah, we get mice and voles, but we catch them with humane mousetraps and let them go away from the house...and that means we don't get little offerings of dead mice any more, like we used to do when we had cats. One time, my cat left a dead mouse in my wellington boot. :(Quote:
Shisha Fiend
Your relative keeps the hens humanely, but as you acknowledged, there would inevitably have been killing of male chicks involved at some point, before she acquired the hens.
Whether you think it's ethical to eat their eggs or not is entirely up to you of course, but I agree with others, that eating eggs even from humanely kept animals can't really be described as vegan.
Ha ha HA!! :D Ooooh, I'm laughing my head off!!!Quote:
Shisha Fiend
My understanding is that a fundamental precept of veganism is abstaining from the dietary consumption of anything containing animal proteins, even though there are various reasons why each person has turned to the lifestyle. Tails, it sounds like your friend's got a great heart, but she ain't vegan. She's ovo-vegetarian, by definition. :)
But is it ethical?? Well, I might could be convinced otherwise on this, but I'm thinking it depends. If I have to choose between feeding my child an egg and letting him die of starvation, then I'd feed him the nasty thing out of desperation. But only out of desperation. I mean think about it - it's naaassstyyy! :eek: (imo)
"Lactic acid (B): acid produced by the fermentation of milk sugar but also by fermentation in pickles, cocoa and tobacco"
Lactic acid is present in milk, yes. Everyone knows that. But as far as I know, they don't take lactic acid out of milk and add it to vegetarian food. I've actually checked into it. Good thing I don't eat anything with lactic acid anyway. If I knew that all you needed was a list with "eggs" written on it, I would have provided that.
In any case, you are not a vegan. You are a parasite to chickens. You cannot say, "I am healthy without eating flesh." You can pretend to be a vegan but if you eat eggs you are not. Let the chickens eat their own eggs.
C'mon John, you don't have to be so mean. Just because somebody hasn't reached where you are in the vegan journey doesn't give you the right to call someone a parasite, or in my case, saying I was outwitted like a child. The people that haven't reached your level of "perfection" yet need your support and encouragement, not your scorn. What convinced me that I was wrong about eggs wasn't yours or Mr Pearbody's somewhat harsh messages. It was Korn nicely agreeing to change the subject, and then just asking one question very nicely.
I'm not being mean. I would rather be discussing other things and conversing with vegans but when someone comes on a vegan forum and says something like, "I'm a vegan, but I eat eggs" I feel that it is my duty to at least set the record straight.
Fiend is a stubborn person who wants to change the definition of "vegan" to suit her lifestyle. That offends me.
And I never said that I am a perfect person but it is pretty simple to stick to the basic rules of veganism like "no eggs."
Calling someone a parasite is mean, whether they have offended you or not. You offended me when you said I was "outwitted like a child", but I didn't start slinging hurtful names. In fact, when I first asked questions about ethical eggs, I agreed that vegans don't eat eggs, which seems to be your main problem with fiend.
As to your belief that fiend is a stubborn individual, it seems that he/she is an intelligent person that believes her/his opinions when he/she can prove them. When he/she can't ("the fact that buying the hens in the first place supports the egg industry indirectly, and the fact that buying any animal undermines its status as an individual being. I have acknowledged both points") she acknowledges it. That does not seem like a stubborn person to me.
I am not trying to attack you. I believe you are a smart guy (as shown by your opinion on Bush : )). I was a lurker for a while, and the reason I didn't want to start posting, was a thread I read were some poor part-time vegan was asking for help and was flamed off the forum. I (obviously) overcame the fear, and I'm glad I did, but I really second guessed my decision after posting my view on eggs and reading the responses. I know people usually don't mean to be critical, and that people here obviously feel strongly about their beliefs. But if responses to people who do not share your belief had a little more tact in them, this place might feel a little safer to newbies (like me ; )).
hmmm...
parasite n.
(1) an animal or plant that lives in or on a host (another animal or plant); the parasite obtains nourishment from the host without benefiting or killing the host
(2) Something that lives in, with, or on another organism and obtains benefits from the host, which it usually injures.
(3) an organism that grows and feeds in or on another organism without benefiting the host organism. Most parasites are harmless, but some are deadly.
(4) An organism that lives on or in an organism of a different species (the host) and derives nutrients at the expense of the host.
If people aren;t actually living on the hens then they wouldn;t be parasitical by some definitions of parasites, although it is true that they are obtaining nourishment from the host without benefitting or killing the host.
However, many do live with the birds or animals they nourish themselves with (or pay others to raise them / "live with" them on their behalf) and often do injure the host.
I'm not trying to be mean - I just looked up the definition of "parasite" and this is what i found -
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&l...efine:parasite
As for scrambled eggs, heh ;) well, the first thing i had with eggs in - and the last as it happened to be - after it dawned on me what eggs actually were (ie waste menstrual produce and technically flesh) was scrambled eggs.
I didn;t even usually eat scrambled eggs either, but i reckoned the texture might put me off them (i really didn;t want to eat them at all after starting to think about what i was eating) but hadn;t reckoned on quite how much it would... something about that spongy consistency really hit the message home for me and i was like....uh... I don;t think I'll eat eggs any more now.
And I didn't :) it was easy-peasy too, even though i used to eat quite a lot of eggs.
;) even free-range local hens just put menstrual waste in their eggs... even putting ethical issues asicde that would be kind of a hard fact to swallow if i wanted to keep eating 'em, you know ?
Sorry Shisha:) I just used Fiend cause it sounded fiesty;). I was in the same place you were four or so days ago. I agree that it is not really clear why vegans can't eat ethically obtained eggs. After some..."convincing" by members of this forum, I've decided that chickens were not put on the earth to provide humans with eggs. Therefore, while the chickens might not mind it, eating eggs is using an animal to further your own human needs.
Hmm, but I find that a little tenuous. I'm not saying it isn't valid, but when my dietary/lifestyle habits come under the microscope (as they often do) not eating rescue eggs is something that I would find really hard, if not impossible, to defend.Quote:
Kelzie
I don't see the harm in consuming what is effectively a waste product from the chickens, as long as they are not being exploited to produce it. For example, do you feel that if a peacock drops a feather, it is unethical to pick up that feather, take it home, and pin it on the wall? After all, in your opinion wouldn't that be 'using an animal to further your own human needs'? :)
As for 'convincing', I am not sure why you put it in quotes but if you feel you were pressurised or emotionally blackmailed to change your eating habits, how worthwhile is the change, really? (If you don't and I have misunderstood it, sorry!)
xxx
Ummm...yeah I got nothin. As for "you feel you were pressurised or emotionally blackmailed to change your eating habits, how worthwhile is the change, really?" It wasn't the pressure or emotional blackmail that forced me to change my eating habits, it was Korn's question (well okay, this isn't a direct quote, but close enough): is it only about not causing pain? And that is why I changed my opinion. Veganism can't only be about not causing pain.
Yes, I have just been reading over that thread in an attempt to understand the whole 'rescue hens eggs' thing. I believe the thread Korn was referring to, which sparked the question 'is it only about not causing pain?' was asking if it was okay to kill fish as according to the poster they did not feel pain (untrue of course).Quote:
Kelzie
Obviously the answer was no, after all killing someone is killing someone, whether they feel pain or not. Therefore veganism is about respecting life, not just minimising suffering. However I don't see how consuming a waste product can be equated with killing an animal that does not feel pain (supposing such an animal existed).
xxx
I...umm...well, you see...damn I don't know. I knew I should have taken debate class...;) I guess the only thing I got is that the whole process of eating eggs, and raising chickens for eggs is wrong, and indirectly, eating eggs from any hen as supporting that system.
Yeah, like I said I can see now how eating eggs from pet hens who were bought from a trader would support that system, and have decided not to eat them. But I can't see how eating eggs from rescue hens is doing the same thing- after all the very definition of a rescue hen surely implies an undermining of the egg industry?Quote:
Kelzie
It's frustrating for me as I can see there are many committed vegans, who I respect, who are against eating eggs from rescue hens- but I can't see why. I really want to understand before I make the decision myself to stop eating the eggs. As you said in a different thread, Kelzie- it would be wrong to stop eating the eggs, simply to conform to a definition of what a vegan is.
After all if a vegan indulges in a boycott which I find pointless, what is the problem in being told I am not a vegan?
However I feel that this is just not something most vegans would do, the whole vegan philosophy is structured and well thought out. I feel there must be a reason for this boycott but I can't understand it.
The only thing I can think of is that perhaps the concept of rescue hens has come into existence after veganism- because it's the vegans doing the rescuing- and so there is not a sound, thought out position on the ethics of eating their eggs. However surely if this was the case it would be a matter of each to his/her own and the camp would be split- yet I find it 100% against eating the eggs. So I assume there must be a reason, somewhere.
I just don't know what it is. Until I do, how can I defend a refusal to eat rescue hen eggs?
Someone enlighten me please!
xxx
As for the people eating the eggs helping the hens, the eating of the eggs doesn't actually help, the money does, and if those people did so to support the hens, they could simply donate money.
As for the whole issue, in my mind, it's not your place to decide whether or not they need or want them. I wouldn't take them away even to feed dogs. They may not want them at all, but you can't ask and know for sure. Nature has it's own way of taking care of the eggs. The hens may eat them for a nutritional boost, or they may let them provide sustenence for the earth. It may not be the worst of crimes, but in my book, it is still a negative, a very low negative, but a negative when I want to be producing positives, not neutrals.
Find a way to ask her, and let HER give them to you.
Yes, but eating the eggs doesn't hurt, and a lot of people are not going to just give money to centres for rescued chickens. The eggs can be a vital means of funding these places.Quote:
snivelingchild
Also they can be given away or eaten, if the rescued chickens are kept as pets- in this case the people eating the eggs are benefitting the chickens by keeping them in a safe and happy environment.
As a child, I used to stay with my grandmother in the country occasionally, and once when I was there she was taking care of her neighbour's chickens. I was only about six so I didn't have the knowledge to query the ethical background to these chickens (as regards cockerels), but I know they were housed in a clean, spacious, safe hen-house, and allowed to roam free. Anyway every morning while I was staying with her I used to go across the road to the hens and take the eggs.Quote:
As for the whole issue, in my mind, it's not your place to decide whether or not they need or want them.
It seemed they didn't mind at all, and though obviously I cannot prove that, when I am debating with omnis I point to animals' behaviour when asked for 'proof' that they are in pain- and I wouldn't want to jeopardise this argument by stating that even though hens appear happy they may stil be suffering. Otherwise you could say even though they appear to be suffering they may still be happy. :)
As for deciding whether or not they need or want them, to me it comes back to the same question about the peacock's feather- would you take it home with you or leave it where it was? I cannot see an ethical reason not to take it with you, but surely you can't know 100% that the peacock doesn't need or want it.
I hope I'm not coming across as rude, Sniv. I just want to make sure I have this thing clear in my mind. :)
xxx
My mom uses manure in her garden....for all we know, the cow may have wanted it to stay where it was dropped :D
Well, I've never heard of a feather being reused by a bird or manure by a cow, but occasionally a hen eats her eggs. That's good enough for me, it is very healthy for them.
Some animals eat their feces. Not sure if cows do though...
Who wants to eat part of a chicken's reproductive system anyway? In principal it's no different from eating a human egg that will turn into a baby as well. I think it's disgusting a sick to eat any form of eggs even if the animals are treated well. I also think that people who see it as 'normal' need pyschological help.
Are you suggesting that most of the world and the entire population of the industrialized countries needs pyschological help? Cause I agree, though maybe it's not because they eat eggs ;). And chicken eggs (well almost all of them anyway) will not turn into a chicken, they're like unfertilized human eggs.
If someone is eating truly cruelty-free, cage-free eggs, free (as in no dollar amount) eggs that do not exploit the animals, I have no complaints, but they certainly are not vegan. Vegans do NOT eat animal products.
I don't think I or Sisha is debating that the definition of veganism doesn't include eating eggs. We were just wondering if there was an ethical reason that eggs shouldn't be eaten if they are indeed "truly cruelty-free, cage-free eggs, free (as in no dollar amount) eggs that do not exploit the animals"?
The only animals that eat their own feces are those that produce two types of feces, some that is not completely digested and they eat to recieve more nutrition, and mostly nutrient-free feces, like we have. Hamsters do this for example, but cows do not.
If a laying hen is rescued from a farm, then I would like to think they would be put in the most natural environment possible, to help them recover and feel comfortable. It just seems like leaving them their eggs and letting nature take care of that helps a hen to establish her living space. I may be thinking of another animal, but I'm pretty sure hens are very picky about keeping things in order. It just seems like taking thier eggs disrupt that.
I've been trying to learn more about hens, and it seems that when a hens eggs, fertilized or unfertilized, are taken away, this stimulates her to lay more and more eggs. Laying more eggs can cause a bird to lose more calcium and other nutrients than they normally would, and an increased laying rate apparantly shortens a birds life span. I'm going to see what else I can find out.
Hmm...also, if a hen increases her laying, due to eggs being taken away, they require greater sustenence, thus raising the price of keeping the hens, which would be especially bad if the people keeping them are stuggling financially.
Re mice:
I really wish they'd learn to use one place as their toilet, then I'd have no problems with them living in the house at all. I like watching their antics, too. They ARE very cute. :)
Re rescue chicken eggs:
Does rescuing chickens help end chicken slavery?
It does for the individual chickens, but not for chickens as a whole.
Chickens, like cows, have been bred to be much more 'productive' than their wild ancestors, and their behaviour patterns are 'unnatural'. Obviously, in the wild there would be many more males, and the hens' eggs would be fertilised, so they would sit on a clutch to hatch them out. They wouldn't lay a new egg every day. That is a perversion of natural behaviour brought about by their human domination, through selective breeding, or 'eugenics' as it's otherwise known.
Personally, I'd like to see all human domination of other animal species become a thing of the past, like slavery. I think that it would really be better if the human-manipulated farm animals eventually became extinct, so wild animals could flourish again.
I don't want to depend on them in any way, or partake of their 'produce'. I want to see a free world.
Why eat eggs if you don't have to?
Well, as I recall, the wording was asking if vegans should eat eggs. I think more accurately, it could be restated to ask should vegetarians eat eggs. I don't think vegans (true ones, I mean) consider eating eggs, really. They don't want animal products, in general, unless they're throwing their veganism out the window.Quote:
Kelzie
Re: is a mosquito a parasite ?
Well... yes, i would imagine they were very much parasitical.
In a similar way to mosquitoes those who feed on animals or their bodily fluids, but who do not actually live on them, could be construed as being parasitical.
Quote:
It's frustrating for me as I can see there are many committed vegans, who I respect, who are against eating eggs from rescue hens- but I can't see why. I really want to understand before I make the decision myself to stop eating the eggs. As you said in a different thread, Kelzie- it would be wrong to stop eating the eggs, simply to conform to a definition of what a vegan is.
Not long ago, Sisha Fiend said :
Quote:
As I don't know of anyone with rescue hens, eating the eggs is a purely hypothetical argument.
So to begin with this was hypothetical but now you are speaking as if you are presently eating Rescue eggs and want to hear some reason to stop before you will.
It seems to me as if you are trying to use the ethics of rescue hen eggs to justify or rationalise eating less ethically produced eggs, but this may just be the way you are coming across. Certainly, what you have said is now contradictory.
In the same way that vegetarians don;t eat meat as long as it's roadkill, vegans don;t eat eggs.
Re:Nope.Quote:
Just because something is bizarre, strange, or even disgusting, doesn't make it morally wrong, does it?
Thank you. The eggs belong to the chickens. If you take the eggs, you are not doing charity. You are exploiting chickens. If you are concerned about the wellfare of chickens, let the chickens eat their own eggs.Quote:
snivelingchild
Maybe their feelings will be hurt if you don't steal their eggs.
hahahahahaha
I was thinking about this last night; it seems as though hens do not know if their eggs are fertilized or not, since they seem to try and hatch them regardless (from what I have read). Couldn't that mean that maybe when she discovers her unfertilized eggs missing, she feels like her children are being stolen?
By accepting that eating "free range" eggs is OK, you have to accept that drinking "free-range milk" is OK, too. Then you of course have, "free range" wool and, finally, "free range" meat. Accepting "free-range"/"more humane" you are setting a precedent for further animal use and whenever there is animal use, there is animal abuse. So in order to prevent any kind of abuse, you have to abjure the use.
The website also says "vegan lifestyles - that is, ways of living that seek to exclude, as far as is possible and practical, all forms of exploitation of animals for food, clothing or any other purpose".Quote:
Shisha Fiend
Just because the chicken produces eggs and have been used to do so for quite some time, someone could become conditioned to seeing them as food, when they're not, they're the waste of another animal's body.
Even if someone willingly gave up a waste part of their body that wouldn't mean you should eat it (take note Hugh Fearnley-Whittingstall). The point is that seeing any part of any animal as food is leading to exploitation. If someone believes that animals aren't here to produce food for us, then no part of their body is ours to eat, whether they need it or not.
Do the eggs need to be eaten just because they are there ?
I don't believe that ethical eggs leads down a slippery slope. Free range milk doesn't apply, the process by which a cow is made to produce milk is a huge burden on the cow, so it wouldn't matter if it was free-range or not (I would outline the way a cow is made to produce milk, but I know you know ;)). Sheep do not lose their wool naturally, so again, it would involve placing a burden on the animal by catching, and shearing it. As far as free-range meat goes, well killing an animal, whether it's free range or not, is a far cry from picking up an egg that it naturally produces, and is discarded from the body.
So what about animal manure? It is surely a "waste part of their body", but (I'm not sure here) it seems like most vegans support using manure in gardens, because it is more natural than other fertilizers.
Snivelingchild, if you could find that, that would be great...it sounds really interesting.
Again, just in case anyone has not read the rest of the thread, I am NOT arguing for the change of the vegan definition. I know what vegans are, and I support the definition. And I don't eat eggs, but it is only to err on the side of caution. What I am looking for is an ethical reason not to eat eggs (to ease my moral conscience that's saying "but why are you doing this?"):)
I am confused, which thing are you talking about?Quote:
Kelzie
And about manure, I'm not really sure, but personally, I'd prefer other methods of farming like using no fertilizer since it's not really necessary or organic vegan farming. I don't know how one would even go about collecting manure if cows were not being farmed. Right now, the meat industry makes money off of manure, but if no one owned a cow, it seems like it wouldn't be worth it, financially, to go about collecting the stuff.
How do you know that taking the eggs is not a burden on the chicken? Snivels pointed out that who knows what the chick thinks, you could be stealing their "children." Sounds extremely traumatic to me :( .Quote:
Kelzie
Not to mention the negative health effects.
This is what I was talking about. Do you know where it's from?Quote:
snivelingchild