Re: B12 deficiency: case stories wanted
Quote:
Back-Space
Do you take any supplements? I take a vegan multivitamin once every 3 or 4 days but I have no idea what my B12 level is like.
We don't take supplements but we drink Silk soy milk - usually the chocolate - almost everyday; on days that we don't we eat other fortified foods like soy burgers, soy bacon, etc. :) I haven't had a blood test in awhile, either, but I'm guessing my B12 levels - and everything else - is fine. The only thing I've ever tested low on is iron, and since going vegan I haven't had any problems with that (I can tell when I'm becoming deficient: I recognize the symptoms).
Re: B12 deficiency: case stories wanted
I used to donate plasma which meant I got a good blood test out of the deal. I doubt they checked the B12 levels though. Maybe I'll see about getting some blood work done in the new year.
Re: B12 deficiency: case stories wanted
I currently have B12 and D-vitamin deficiency.
Just heading out to get my B12 shot, actually!
Been vegan for about 1-2 years, with a few mishaps. Though I'm mostly only vegan in my diet.
Probably would have had a deficiency even if I were a carnivore, so that's not the issue. I just tend to have bad eating habits.
Might have been caused by stress, or even caused the stress itself. I hear B12 deficiency can have bad influence on your nerves if going on for too long.
As long as you know what you're eating and you do it right, veganism shouldn't be a factor when it comes to B12 deficiency.
Re: B12 deficiency: case stories wanted
Quote:
As long as you know what you're eating and you do it right, veganism shouldn't be a factor when it comes to B12 deficiency.
True - as long as you also know that the amounts of B12 and other nutrients which occur naturally in food and water today aren't what they used to be... Plus - bad eating (and drinking etc) habits can destroy B12 levels in people who consume normal amounts of B12.
PS - unless you have a special condition meaning that you can't absorb B12 orally, maybe this thread is interesting for you:
http://www.veganforum.com/forums/sho...lar-injections
Re: B12 deficiency: case stories wanted
I had blood drawn maybe a few months ago and I was told I had a folate/Vitamin B deficiency when I was simply vegetarian (10 years). I hadn't been taking any supplements at the time. I don't remember having any of the symptoms, either.
Re: B12 deficiency: case stories wanted
I've been vegan for just over 6 years. Late this past winter, I felt really, really bad. At first I thought it was exhaustion from the holidays, then maybe a case of the winter blues. I was so very tired for several weeks, and started to become winded when I ran. I thought it might be hormonal (menopause) but I was really worried about depression too, so I went to the doctor. She did a complete blood count, and my B12 count was 280. Technically, from what I understand, 280 is not deficient in the US, but is in other countries, and I honestly felt just terrible - tired and depressed all the time. She treated me with 1000mcg sub-lingual B12 tablets daily for 30 days. It took a couple of weeks, but I finally feel like myself again.
I always thought my diet was good, but looking back, I now know that I wasn't eating very many fortified foods. I should have been supplementing all along, but just didn't. I have have now made it a habit to take a supplement regularly.
Re: B12 deficiency: case stories wanted
Quote:
Cowboy
Technically, from what I understand, 280 is not deficient in the US, but is in other countries
Hi!
First, note that B12 can be reported either as pmol/l or pg/ml. 280 pmol/l isn't the same as 280 pg/ml. If you check info about what's considered normal B12 ranges for various countries, you'll find that there are practically no countries (there are only a a few exceptions) which currently consider someone with a level of 280 pg/ml - or 280 pmol/l - as B12 deficient.
I did have a thread showing a conversion table between pmol and pg, but removed it a while ago, since I had based it on info from a dietician which have a tendency of presenting facts in a very peculiar and often misleading (or either plain wrong) way. I had picked up the info from veganhealth.org, a site I''m not much fan of, and ironically, the only time actually rely on info from that site, the info is plain wrong. There's no disagreement among professionals about how to convert pmol/l to pg/ml - with the exception of the guy behind veganoutreach.com/veganhealth.org, who seems to disagree with himself - and both claims that 1 pg/ml = 1.35 pmol/l and that 1.35 pg/ml = 1 pmol/l. He is a colleague of Ginny Messina, who is the only other person I can remember who has used an inverted/wrong pmol/pg conversion table in her literature. She is also the only one (which I'm aware of) which claims that the B12 'reference' now is 25-100 mcg (from supplements).
The correct conversion:
280 pg/ml = 206 pmo/l
280 pmol/l = 379 pg/ml.
There could of course be a link between B12 and depression, even when the levels are within what's considered the normal range. A regular B12 test may also give misleading info, since such a test don't distinguish between active B12 and inactive B12 analogues in the blood. It seems that active B12 molecules can 'die' and be converted to inactive B12 analogues, so - depending on what someone eats/drinks and how they otherwise are exposed to B12 'enemies' out there (sugar, tobacco, stress, oral contraceptives + many types of medicine and ther pharmaceuticals, alcohol, coffee and much more), some people may need a much higher B12 intake than others.
Whatever your situation was, it's good that your situations has improved - and it's impossible to guess why this happened. But 280 - whether it's pg/ml or pmol/l, is generally not considered outside the normal range.
Japan has a very high minimum threshold in terms of what they consider a normal B12 range. There may be reasons to increase the level in other countries as well, but there's a risk involved in that, since too high B12 levels (just like too low B12 levels) in some cases are associated with health conditions we want to avoid (eg. certain cancer types). People on diets high in B12 generally rank high on lists over the health problems none of us want. There are a number of possible reasons for that: the B12 itself (which stimulates cell division/growth), animal protein, natural and unnatural growth hormones found in animal products etc.
Japan, with it's high B12 reference range may be better off than many other countries with such a high reference, because Japanase people hostorically has been known for their low intake of milk. Maybe getting B12 from fish is a better way, from a health perspective, than getting it from eg red. meat too, so maybe a possibly too high B12 recommendation will cause less harm in Japan than in most other countries.
However - to assume that vegans need a much higher total intake of b12 than non-vegans would have to be based ton the idea that eg. 3 mcg B12 is enough for a meat eater, but not for a vegan. I haven't seen anything, anywhere, suggesting that the total B12 intake should be higher for vegans than for others. So whatever you do to maintain good B12 levels, I think it's important to remember that we don't need a higher B12 total intake than meat eaters. Most meat eaters get more B12 than they need, and almost none of them have a B12 intake as high as some of the most fanatical, vegan B12 supplement munchers, who may take as much as 100, 250, 500 or even 1000 mcg B12 - not as a part of a treatment for a B12 deficiency, but as in something they plant to do for the rest of their lives.
There are various reports (check other posts on this forum or try Google) about what is considered a normal (not necessarily a good/ideal) intake for meat eaters. The last report I looked as suggested 3.5 mcg for woman and 5 mcg for men, and other reports have slightly higher numbers, but it 's generally agreed upon that meat eaters usually don't get as much B12 as 10 mcg/day. And 'most people' consume a lot of animal products. I don't think we should strive for a B12 intake as high as what 'most people' have.
Still - there are reasons to compensate for the anti-B12 effect of various things vegans and non-vegans are exposed to. But it's still important to distinguish between 'normal' and 'ideal'. Most countries in the world recommend an intake of 2-3 mcg B12 /day (spread over various meals) - not as a recommended addition to the B12 people get from red meat etc, but as the total intake. That's still a lot of B12, but may be needed in our anti-bacterial world.
Again - there's an exception re. these values as well: the same Jack Norris I mentioned above suggests that when getting B12 from supplements, one should take 25 to 100 mcg B12 daily. Part if the reason for that is, according to Norris, that not all consumed B12 is absorbed and that the more B12 we consume in one portion, the lower the percentage of absorbed will be.
Here's how he got to that recommendation: "Depending on how you calculate the absorption rates, to get the same absorption rates from supplements in one dose, you would need 25 µg to 240 µg per day". (He probably means absorption and not absorption rate?). However, he also found this result "imprecise". And since he as thought that as much as 240 mcg/day would be way too high, he just changed it to 100. So much for precise calculations.
The problem with having an inverted conversion table of course occurs if one - as Jack Norris has done - uses this table to convert all the numbers he posts to one of the two values. Conclusions based on numbers which are wrong (due to a wrong conversion table) will most likely, or at least often, be wrong. The real damage of course happens when others use a site with false info (veganhealth.org has promoted an inverted for almost 10 years) as a reference when they write their own books and articles.
If you work in a bank and mix up currency conversion rates, you won't have your job for long, but we're yet in the childhood of 'professional' health info for vegans, and obviously one can post misleading or wrong info for years without anyone stopping it.
I've seen no other scientific studies/sources, anywhere, agreeing with him. But I have seen a colleague of Jack Norris who claim claim that "You can’t get enough by eating unwashed organic produce or mushrooms grown in B12-rich soil. The recommended dose is 25 to 100 micrograms per day or 1,000 micrograms 2-3 times per week. " It seems right that you can't get enough B12 from not washing your plants - and even if the B12 reported to exist in some mushrooms should be bioactive, you'd have to eat a massive amount of them to get the B12 you need. But to claim - when talking about food - that "the recommended dose is 25 to 100 micrograms per day" is a false statement, since there no common agreement about that at all. There's no common agreement that people who for some reason will get no B12 from their food should get 25-100 mcg/day from supplements either. If someone wants to launch such an idea - fine, but IMHO they should present is as an highly personal opinion and not as a a mainstream reference.
Without remembering that Jack Norris and Ginny Messina actually have worked together, I noticed that these two people are the same two people who in a couple of important cases have totally different references that what pretty much everyone else has. The main problem when a person who to some degree is considered an authority posts wrong info is that others will refer to it in other literature and on other sites, which is why we should take false reference values seriously. If you mix up the pmol/pg conversion rate, for instance, your assumptions will be based on distorted numbers, and you may end up with conclusions which are not at all in tune with real life facts.
If you look at the three reference values mentioned here together, you'll easily end up with totally conflicting conclusions, all depending on whose facts you use. If one thinks that US has lower B12 minimum values than most other countries, assumes that we need 25 mcg B12 per day, and use a pg/pmol conversion a la the one Jack Norris promote (and also have promoted on veganhealth.org for many years until he changed it not long ago), not only will one be out of touch with what pretty much everyone else thinks, but eating vegan will look like a rather bad and 'unnatural' choice for many health interested people.
The reason for that is that those numbers will cause people to think that if you eat vegan, you'll be extremely far away from the 'healthy' levels meat eaters have of B12, one for some reason some vegan 'authorities' almost never mention that there's a reason both vegans and non-vegans need more B12 today than they'd need in less 'denaturalized' world.
Re: B12 deficiency: case stories wanted
Re: B12 deficiency: case stories wanted
I voted for "My B12 levels are in the low normal range, but that doesn't worry me much." I got this done in December after 4 years of vegetarianism and a few months of veganism.
I've since started taking 2.5mcg of B12 a day and I feel fine. I just figured I'd head anything off at the pass. I probably won't have another blood test until next December so we'll see if my levels change at all by then.
Re: B12 deficiency: case stories wanted
Of course vegans can get a B12 deficiency. Circa one in ten vegans would become B12 deficient even if we had the same levels as non-vegans, and B12 is commonly thought to be *the* nutrient to pay attention to and supplement with for veg*ns. Most people probably know, by know, that the B12 deficiency risk is much higher for vegans than for meat eaters, for a number of reasons. Non-vegans have other nutrients to focus on and supplement with (eg B9). But this raw (half raw?) food women may not have been a vegan or vegetarian by choice, it seems that she may have been raised as a veg*n and not actively chosen a veg*n lifestyle herself - which could explain why she switches to eating animal product every day as a way to deal with B12 deficiency instead of choosing other, animal-friendly and more efficient options.
It's interesting that she developed a deficiency even when taking oral supplements for circa a decade (she had been a vegan for 4 years and a vegetarian for 23). If I understand this right, before her 10 years of taking supplements she was a vegetarian for 17 years without supplements (and in good health).
Oral B12 vs. injected B12 is being discussed here: Is oral B12 as effective as intramuscular injections?
It's kind hard to discuss with statements a la "There is no vegetarian sources of B12" on YouTube. Although there's generally a higher rate of B12 analogues in plant products than in animal products, and lower levels (if any at all) in lots of plant products, several scientific sources who are fully aware of B12 analogues will disagree with her. (See eg this post in the thread about long time, non-supplementing vegans).
She claims things without any source references (pretty common on YouTube, and unfortunately also pretty common among many, but not all, rawfooders).
There's no need for a vegan with no atypical conditions to eat animal products to increase their B12 levels. The way she presents this (to people without her special heart condition), she sounds like a person who suggest that people should rather eat animal products than to supplement when needed. In an emergency situation with a severe deficiency it would be better to treat the deficiency first with an intense treatment, and go back to simple, oral supplements afterwards instead of a slow process with getting non-therapeutic amounts from food.
She is a 'health first' person, but why doesn't she mention the issues involved in high B12 intakes (look eg. here and here, and also look here, because many of these cases could be linked to high B12 levels as well, as explained elsewhere)? I don't know this woman, but if I did, I'd ask if she 100% sure that she wants to be in the upper end of normal range for meat eaters. Is she even aware of the heath risks associated with eating animal products?
People with problems absorbing B12 usually absorb B12 it better from supplements than from food (google R-binder and intrinsic factor for more), so her story is atypical. It's also commonly thought that people who really need to fix their B12 levels are better off with B12 better from injections than from food as well, but due to her special heart condition she wanted to avoid those. If I would have any symptoms of a deficiency, I'd take therapeutic amounts in one way or the other ASAP, and not rely on food alone, let alone animal foods, which by the way are known for having higher levels of B12 but/and which also are associated with lots of other health problems.
It's kind of strange if a person who seems to be an active advocate for a particular diet have been lots of years without meat before she finds out that her B12 levels are below the normal range (if that's what has happened). To me it seems as if the oral supplements she have been taking haven't been good enough; there could even be a problem of taking B12 in a multivitamin with copper etc, or the amounts of B12 weren't high enough for her needs - or they could contain inactive B12 analogues eg. from spirulina.
The way she compares the recommended levels is also a bit strange: she compares USA with Japan - without mentioning that Japan is the or one of the very few nations on this planet with much higher B12 recommendations than the rest of the world.
She should have mentioned if this was pmol pr pg/ml. According to this link, "The normal blood level of vitamin B12 ranges between 200 and 600 picogram/milliliter (148-443 picomol/liter)".According to this link, "Normal values are 200 - 900 pg/mL (picograms per milliliter)."
She may sum her approach up pretty well up when she says (the underlined part): "The optimal levels, I would say, would be, I don't know, somewhere between 700 and 1000".
Including a generous amount of raw food is a IMHO good idea, but for some reason, some rawfooders can be quite preachy and demonstrate that they haven't really done much research about what their preaching about at the same time. But - after all - that could be a good sign, in the sense that they at least are very enthusiastic about the diet they live on. But what this woman promotes is a rather dangerous path: if people have a severe deficiency, with pretty bad symptoms, nobody should recommend that they something which may be understood as a suggestion that just eating the kind of food most people eat will cure it. Severe B12 deficiency can cause permanent damage, a severe deficiency with pretty bad symptoms can't be treated with eggs and fish, injections or strong oral supplements is important to recommend in such cases.
Her levels went from 86 to 376 in over some months, but if we exclude any special conditions this woman has, taking B12 from oral supplements, would have been a faster and more efficient/reliable solution for most people, vegan or not. It is estimated that 9% of all (non-vegans) have an actual B12 deficiency, and not only "low levels". With the same numbers among vegans we could have almost 1000 B12 deficient members among our almost 11,000 forum members alone. That's important to know, especially since B12 is more prevalent among vegans than non-vegans. But to make this kind video, which almost is evangelizing for use of animal products - when we know the many reasons why a) people may become B12 deficient, and b) know the actual reasons why vegans are more likely to get a B12 deficiency just doesn't make any sense. (Making videos meaning that it takes 10 minutes to go through something one could read in much shorter time doesn't always make sense anyway!).
OTOH, if she, in her other hundreds of videos, has promoted the idea that rawfooders don't need supplements, she may feel a need to correct herself on YouTube. She could be a victim of the 'just don't wash your vegetables and you're safe'-myth; a dangerous theory to promote to a women like her, who has been a veg*n most of her life. I guess any active "YouTube-activist" (she even seems to have site called "Radiant Health") who gets really sick will feel a need to - and should - correct misleading info they may have posted. She just doesn't do it in a very scientific way, instead she promotes... more misleading info! Then again, If I would have made hundreds of videos about 'raw health' and start to eat cooked animal products, I'd probably feel a need to explain a little something as well.
She gives the false impression that she, with her raw vegan background, have to eat cooked animal products to become healthy, a theory practically nobody will support. And - if one should evaluate raw vegan food as such, along with her B12 levels, one would have to look at what she consumed anyway. Did she eat/make proper food? What about her previous intake of B12 enemies like sugar, coffee and tobacco in her years as a veg*n... and so on. And by the way, (I looked at part of one of her other videos)... someone should tell her that B12 comes from bacteria+cobalt, not from animal product as such.
Luckily don't all non-vegans with health problems don't make a video (or 4-5, like this ex-raw woman did!) about their problems on YouTube. That would have represented massive server overloads...
Re: B12 deficiency: case stories wanted
Please keep responding to the poll! :-)
So far, only one person has selected the "Yes, with serious, non-curable symtoms (eg. neurological damage)"-option, and that was a person who got these problems before going vegan.
For those interested, here's an article from 2008 about "reversible cognitive impairment and P3 abnormalities in B12 deficiency neurological syndromes": http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18350363
Re: B12 deficiency: case stories wanted
I think it would be interesting to know whether all the people that have answered "No, not according to my blood tests that also included MMA amd homocysteine test" are taking supplements or there is someone who isn't.
I haven't read the whole thread, sorry if this question is already done, in any case it could be good to include this information in the poll.
Re: B12 deficiency: case stories wanted
I have been vegetarian for about 3 years, vegan for 1 year or so. I had blood work done about 6 months ago and my B12 level was 91 (my Vitamin D was also very low - 23). I started taking sublingual supplements like 3-4 times a week and my most recent blood work about a month ago showed that I was up to 491 with my B12. My vitamin D was 16 though, and I have been very dizzy lately usually when I eat. :/ But my B12 is better!
Re: B12 deficiency: case stories wanted
I had a blood test recently because a problem in my foot. Everything was fine, the b12 was nearly 400 (sorry, I forgot the exact amount) and good levels of the others things. I've been vegan for more than 2 years now, vegetarian one year previously and, before that, I used to have meat or fish once a week for a long time, no milk since ages ago and rarely cheese or eggs. I bought a jar of Solgar's b12 at the beginning, but it is still in my cupboard, with some tablets left... I have to say that I had the rest of the tablets mostly at the beginning.
Ah! About my foot , it was stress fracture, I work as a chef, long hours... Despite that I haven't stop working (they told me it was arthritis, later it took time for a x-ray, and, then I was nearly healed...), and I had a bandage just in the 4th week (bought in a chemist, by the way, apparently I had to wait 10 weeks for had it at the hospital...). I recovered very well.
I have to say also that last week I rode my bike for 50km. And I use to swim 2 or 3 times a week 1000 m.
Well, I want to think that I have a healthy body!
Maybe it is useful as well to say that I am 44, not that young, now!
Sorry, I realized this is not the thread "Does a healthy body need suplements?" Maybe it would be better to change it.. Apologies!
Re: B12 deficiency: case stories wanted
A recent blood test showed me with low, on the 'not a problem unless it drops further' side, B12.
That's after 12 years as a vegan. I do smoke quite heavily, drink alcohol moderately and get through totally dum-bassed amounts of coffee though.
Also consume a lot of onion and garlic which are rumoured to be B12 inhibitors too.
On the supplement side; Vitamin pills, very irregularly; B12 fortified nutrtional yeast, quite a lot of that.
Re: B12 deficiency: case stories wanted
Most of us faced any one of the above symptom as a result of B12 deficiency, it's very common and not a big issue. Our body needs several vitamins for different purpose; all they have different function and balance our health. When any disturbance and imbalance takes place health problems occurs in from of diseases. Everyone should be aware about their quality and composition of food to avoid such diseases. Be careful and take care.
Re: B12 deficiency: case stories wanted
Mine went down to levels of 65 and I now have permanent neurological damage. I've recently been diagnosed with gastritis and I've read that that can mess up b12 absorption (as it's difficult to absord normally let alone with stomach problems).
I wish I'd gone for a test earlier. I had one many years ago and it was low then (they didn't tell me the amount). They put me on supplements but the gastritis would've made it difficult to absorb properly.
Injections help (have to self inject 'cos can only get every 3 months on NHS and I'm bedridden by then) but I go downhill quickly. I always know if I need one when I start dropping things, my balance goes and my spacial awareness is worse.