Re: How do you view vegetarians?
I don't understand the arrogance in some of the posts. It certainly doesn't help to introduce a major life change. I have been a Veg for most of my life, on and off. The last few years, I've eaten meat a handful of times and I know where it came from and how it was raised. I eat a bit of cheese and dairy too, but not much. I don't eat much soy or tofu, because I try not to support GMOs or products like soy and corn that are harmful to smaller farmers, who go out of their way to not use pesticides and other poisons, that ultimately end up being consumed by plenty of animals. I don't wear animals or use products tested on or made from them. I don't go to zoos and have a lot of hours spent volunteering with animal rescues, including fostering a lot. I ride a bike when I can and live near work. I make almost no garbage and barely pollute and check into companies to see if they do.
Yet, if I eat a piece of beef, from an old dairy cow from a friends farm, that had a great life and was slaughtered humanely or want to sprinkle a little parm on my pasta, I'm viewed as an ignorant person who is destroying the world and doesn't care? Seems kind of backwards to me.
BTW, this is my first post, but I've been reading the board a lot.
Re: How do you view vegetarians?
Quote:
Jamison Pollitt
Yet, if I eat a piece of beef, from an old dairy cow from a friends farm, that had a great life and was slaughtered humanely or want to sprinkle a little parm on my pasta, I'm viewed as an ignorant person who is destroying the world and doesn't care? Seems kind of backwards to me.
So you would let the black slave that lived in the attic of the mansion serve you, but you wouldn't eat from the crops that were grown by the slaves living in dirty sheds next to the fields? Because you know house slaves had it slightly 'better' then field slaves... forget about slavery just being wrong, lets apply gradients to it so we can feel happy about ourselves and still get to exploit others.
Anyway where did this old dairy cow come from? Did your friend just bought her like property? And where did the milk for that parm come from? Was the cow inseminated/raped more kindly? Was her calve dragged away more gently? And what about the rennet for that parm... did a calve just throw it up instead of being slaughtered for it?
It's just more excuses and self-delusion. Not arrogance by others for pointing it out.
Re: How do you view vegetarians?
Quote:
Anyway where did this old dairy cow come from? Did your friend just bought her like property? And where did the milk for that parm come from? Was the cow inseminated/raped more kindly? Was her calve dragged away more gently? And what about the rennet for that parm... did a calve just throw it up instead of being slaughtered for it?
Exactly. There is no ethical justification. That old dairy cow was still instrumentalized, probably raped to inseminate her, probably had her children stolen and sold off, and now has her own life cut short for something that is completely unnecessary (meat/cheese tasting good).
For the record, im not accusing you personally (i commend most of the activities you mention above), but pointing out that it still is not ethically justifiable. Whether you eat animal products or not i can't change, but calling it ethically consistent with caring for animals is not correct in that it is still taking pleasure in the suffering and death of an animal.
Also on the ignorance claim: You either know of the issue and choose not to care or choose not to do as much as you can about it (either apathy or an inconsistency), or you dont know about it (ignorance).
All of us have inconsistencies, but trying to justify them is an excuse.
Re: How do you view vegetarians?
Jamison, I don't think cow's having had a 'great life' or having been slaughtered 'humanely' justifies eating meat or dairy, but I understand what you mean about arrogance. Even if you don't wear animal products or use products tested on animals, have eaten meant only a handful of times the last few years, and eat a bit of dairy, your risk being seen - by *some* vegans as someone who doesn't care at all.
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I don't understand the arrogance in some of the posts. It certainly doesn't help to introduce a major life change.
Some people lose interest in veganism if they see arrogance or more or less derogatory comments from vegans, while others don't. I think the best way to avoid such attitudes (of course – next to not eating beef etc) is to not try to justify it. We wouldn't kill and human or a 'pet' even if it was humanely slaughtered, so why should we eat a chicken or cow anyway? Their lives and happiness are as important for them as our lives and happiness is for us.
From a human-centric perspective, maybe just eating a few chickens or fish is not a big deal, but that picture look different if you see it from the animals' perspective.
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Seems kind of backwards to me.
You wouldn't want to be killed and eaten, even if you've had a great life. You don't want to be slaughtered either, not even 'humanely'. It is kind of backwards to focus on the few cases of animal product use a person is responsible if he mainly is avoiding animal product and it is kind of backwards to use animal products if you are against doing it. But we can can't change others; we can change ourselves, so I guess you either have to ignore arrogant comments, or stop using animal products and tell certain people who are against using animal products about it.
I have seen some rude attacks on new vegans or near-vegans here in the past – and have, on more than one occasion - put people on moderated posts for pushing new members away with arrogant and rude comments. I've also seen that even new vegans sometimes say that they can't understand how non-vegans can do this or that, referring to things they have done almost their entire lives. And ironically, some of the people who have been the most arrogant are people who were meat eaters until only a few days or weeks ago.
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Yet, if I eat a piece of beef...
Out of sheer curiosity: why do you think people eat beef, even if they know about the health risks involved, the environmental effect of billions of people eating meat - and the fact that some other living being has to 'die for their tastebuds'?
Re: How do you view vegetarians?
Jamison,
welcome to the forum :-)
It is good to hear that you try to limit your consumption of animal products.
What are your reasons for it?
From what I read in your post, it seems that you do care for animals, which would be a great starting point.
So why do you still eat meat? To be perfectly open, once I went vegetarian some 20 years ago (largely because seeing footage from slaughterhouses and giving it some consideration), I personally could not stand the stuff any longer.
Also, if you do like the taste, there are lots of "replacement products" out there (and most of them - at least in Europe - actually in organic quality, so no GMO soy and other evil things there).
Point is, whenever I talk to friends and colleagues who do eat meat, they tell me that they *only* eat meat from sustainable sources, where they know that the cow was treated well, and very seldom to top it. Of course, I do not inquire further when I see them then at lunchtime (every day) gorging themselves with the standard cafeteria fare or McDonalds stuff, which I am quite sure does *not* come from anything like a "sustainable source".
How do you handle that? When you are out with friends, and they want to go to a pizza place or burger joint? Do you personally go for vegan options then? I would consider that a challenge, to refrain from eating "crap" animal products that assault you every day on the street, but nevertheless indulge now and then in a "sustainable" product, thus keeping my appetite for animal products up. And yes, I personally also, for 20 years, ate lots of eggs and dairy, simply because I did not think about it any further (and believed that the happy dairy cows on the pastures and free-range chickens happily give up their products every day).
Now, knowing what I know today (after reading Jonathan Safran Foer's "Eating animals"), I am quite happy with sprinkling Chedaresse (a vegan "cheese" substitute) over my pasta and enjoying my cappuccino with soymilk.
Best regards,
Andy
Re: How do you view vegetarians?
Wow, board didn't seem to active, until I made my comments. haha. Hello all. First, the cow in the story, was rescued from a dairy farm. I forget how much my friend pays. Once she has it, the cow lives free for it's life and until there is a health problem or quality of life issue, it's free. Then, everything is used and respected.
I am interested in veganism because I love animals, respect them as equals and want a clean peaceful planet. I'm 38, I was a strick Veg for about 10 years I think when I was young and went to a slaughterhouse. When family tragedy struck, I forgot about a lot of the things I truly care about. The last 4 years, I've been getting back to that. I've eaten meat maybe 3 times in that time frame.
One of the reasons I joined the board, is because I've tried numerous times to make a parm replacement for pasta and they are all awful. lol. The store bought ones are great, I agree, but for my long term goals, I'd like to make everything myself.
Sorry if I came off like a jerk.
Re: How do you view vegetarians?
Also, I'd like to add, I plan on going the final step and becoming completely Vegan in a few weeks. It's fairly easy where I live to do so.
Re: How do you view vegetarians?
Quote:
Jamison Pollitt
I don't understand the arrogance in some of the posts. It certainly doesn't help to introduce a major life change. I have been a Veg for most of my life, on and off. The last few years, I've eaten meat a handful of times and I know where it came from and how it was raised. I eat a bit of cheese and dairy too, but not much. I don't eat much soy or tofu, because I try not to support GMOs or products like soy and corn that are harmful to smaller farmers, who go out of their way to not use pesticides and other poisons, that ultimately end up being consumed by plenty of animals. I don't wear animals or use products tested on or made from them. I don't go to zoos and have a lot of hours spent volunteering with animal rescues, including fostering a lot. I ride a bike when I can and live near work. I make almost no garbage and barely pollute and check into companies to see if they do.
Yet, if I eat a piece of beef, from an old dairy cow from a friends farm, that had a great life and was slaughtered humanely or want to sprinkle a little parm on my pasta, I'm viewed as an ignorant person who is destroying the world and doesn't care? Seems kind of backwards to me.
BTW, this is my first post, but I've been reading the board a lot.
There is no such thing as humane slaughter. It is a complete and utter oxy-moron. If that dairy cow was still alive, then by all intents and purposes it wanted to live. Killing an animal and eating its flesh will never be humane. Even if you plan out exactly how to kill it to cause the least amount of suffering (and let's face, it you didn't kill it yourself so you can't even say that the cow didn't suffer) you are still taking the life of an animal that wants to live.
Until you can understand that, my friend, you cannot call yourself vegan.
ETA: Okay, I think this is coming off harsh, in light of your other posts. It's just... you're missing something. I feel like you're so close to getting it, but you don't, not yet. I'm not trying to be mean. Just trying to understand.
Re: How do you view vegetarians?
Jamison you might like to try this recipe http://nouveauraw.com/spreads-cheese...nutsan-cheese/ I haven't made it myself but I really like making almond cheese.
Re: How do you view vegetarians?
Quote:
Mymblesdaughter
I've tried so many of the NY nut cheeses and they usually come out way too salty for me. I've tried cutting down on the NY, different types of nuts, everything and none of it tastes good so far.
I haven't given up, but I don't have much faith in that style of replacement. Also, yes I understand the idea isn't to replace.
Re: How do you view vegetarians?
Quote:
Jamison Pollitt
One of the reasons I joined the board, is because I've tried numerous times to make a parm replacement for pasta and they are all awful. lol. The store bought ones are great, I agree, but for my long term goals, I'd like to make everything myself.
Parmesan was the tough thing for me too. Personally, i have found nutritional yeast to be a decent substitute. Not that it tastes like parm, however, it does smell a lot like it and i think it tastes really great. It also serves as something you can sprinkle over many foods.
Honestly though, i can't say that there is a great substitute for it, but search around. Personally i was surprised once i set my mind to not eating cheese how simple it was to give it up. I have never craved it yet (been vegan only a year or so now).
Awesome that you are thinking of going vegan!
Re: How do you view vegetarians?
Quote:
Glory
ETA: Okay, I think this is coming off harsh, in light of your other posts. It's just... you're missing something. I feel like you're so close to getting it, but you don't, not yet. I'm not trying to be mean. Just trying to understand.
No worries. I just don't like the common attitude I find. It feels no different than when somebody tries to push their religion on you or what their model of success is. I think there would be a lot more people fighting the good fight without it. That's all. I get it, trust me I do and I'm getting there with my actions.
Re: How do you view vegetarians?
Jamison, awesome to hear that you want to go vegan. Wish you all the best for it.To me, an interesting aspect of it was about the clarity of it - no more discussions, considerations, simply not using any animal products. Life can be so wonderfully simple. I can simply explain to people "sorry, I do not consume animal products" when they try to argue with me about "humane killing" or similar.
Do not get me wrong, now I understand your comments about "cruelty-free milk" - if you have a friend with a rescue cow. Nevertheless, as much as I understand it, I personally would rather consume it, not any more than the much discussed " breast milk ice cream" (was a discussion here and elsewhere - if the thought of lactating women who use their surplus breast milk to produce cheese, icecream and other things for human, guilt-free consumption appalls you, how come that using the milk of another species does not?)
Being vegan is just so much easier, to me.
Best regards, Andy
Re: How do you view vegetarians?
Andy, I completely understand that. For a long time, I had a discussion with a friend about the no meat vs. local grass fed meat on and off. Although I did agree with her on a lot of oints and personally, her choices didn't really offend me too much, it was just easier for me to abstain from meat completely. She would get on her local beef high ground, then be at the bar eating beef nachos. I'm pretty close already to vegan.
Re: How do you view vegetarians?
The thing is with vegetarianism you can't assume it is from an ethical viewpoint. Vegetarianism can stem from so many basis for example religious or diet. You can be a vegetarian and not give a crap about animals. I have met some people before that were vegetarians only for the sake of loosing a few pounds, they didn't care about animals or the earth what so ever...lot's actually had no idea what happens to hens and dairy cows or even beef cattle. Lot's of people who do it for religious reason may not have an ethical view point on vegetarianism either. I guy I used to work with was born a vegetarian, but he is training to be a vivisector for animal science. I have told a couple of religious vegetarians (hindus) how cows suffer for the milk they produce and they don't care. They are only vegetarian because that's just how they grew up, it's only habit. I am only stating this because you can be a vegetarian and not give a crap about what happens to the animals or this earth. Lot's of vegetarians have the ignorance of a meat eater. I would know because I was one of them. I was only a vegetarian because I got dared. I had no clue what happened to the animals and never thought about it. I stayed in the same ignorant box meat eaters were in.
Anyways, besides the point, how I feel about vegetarians...I guess it depends on who the vegetarians are. If it's a vegetarian I know who is training in vivisection then I don't have a relatively peaceful energy towards him, or the vegetarian who told me once that he will crucify all gays because they are indifferent to him. You can be a vegetarian and still be as ignorant as some meat eaters, so it really depends on the person. I know a meat eater who straight out says that she doesn't want to know about the suffering that animals go through for her meal because that means she would probably have to become a vegetarian and she doesn't want to be a vegetarian. I have more respect for her personally that the vegetarian vivisector to be because she knows they don't come from pastures, but it's that extra little push of actually seeing the suffering that is stopping her. So it really all just depends on the person. In this day and age, vegetarian doesn't mean much anymore for the ethical stance of animals, in my own experience. I actually came across a good article today about why drinking animal milk isn't vegetarian at all. It was very interesting. This post made me think about it. It talks mainly about the vegetarians in India but it can apply to vegetarians here as well, pleas take a look, it was a good read!
http://veganismisthefuture.com/animalmilknotveg/
Re: How do you view vegetarians?
I had signed up for a human anatomy and physiology course for the summer that I needed in order to get into a certain class in the Fall at college. I didnt realize until the instructor emailed us all ahead of time that the lab component involved dissecting a cow eye and sheep brain. I contacted her and explained that I am vegan and this is against my beliefs, and I asked if there were projects I could do in place. She refused to budge, and claimed that she was a vegetarian herself so she did understand my predicament, but she wants all her students to experience seeing the muscles etc of real tissue. At least she was honest that the materials came from factory farms but she also tried to justify it by saying that they were not being used in vain (which I disagree with). fortuntely for me I was able to drop her class and get into another class where the instructor used online simulations and not animals.
I find vegetarianism confusing because there is such a wide range of beliefs in what is acceptable. There are strict vegetarians that are actually vegans but for whatever reason call themselves vegetarians, and then there are those that consume dairy, eggs, and wear leather and suede etc. I'm afraid the same thing is going to happen with the term "vegan" which is a whole other discussion.
Re: How do you view vegetarians?
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Firestorm
I no longer consider Vegetarians to be prancing lightweights, rather as Vegans in the making. I also have a bit more humility about being Vegan and consider it my role to help Vegetarians to become Vegan (if this is what they want).
This is how I look at Vegetarians also (: