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Did someone say trial and error is avoidable?

Now it's my turn to have no idea how you arrived at that interpretation from what I wrote :) I'm not talking about how today's medical knowledge was acquired at all, I'm discussing how we should...

Let's be clear about what we're discussing. Drug testing is in 2 main stages

1) Pre-clinical testing, where they try to establish using animal tests and other tests not involving humans (such as...

With an untested drug there's a risk that it will do more harm than good - that's partly why they test them. If there wasn't a risk like that then you would be able to get plenty of people with the...

You said "I DO believe that if two individuals suffer from the same affliction (or are trapped in a metaphorical "burning house") and if one of those individuals is by comparison significantly...

Not sure. Is your position is that it would be OK to experiment on certain humans (ETA who wouldn't be able to give informed consent), though not on animals? If so, how is it compatible with acting...

Sorry, Fiver, I don't follow your argument at all so I may well have misrepresented it. I'll delete the message you think is insulting. I am glad nobody is arguing in favour of testing on either...

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I don't understand your point about mental impairment, fiver?

Given that we know different things turn different people vegan, that sounds like a Plan, pat!

Interesting about the abhorrence of cruelty. I think I read somewhere that you don't see the hideous...

So you agree that volume sales in the UK are in decline, but you don't think the decline is to be welcomed? If in 2050 (say) 1 person in the UK bought 1 pork chop and paid £5,000,000 for it while...

What would suit them?

I don't think this is true in the UK - for example, according to http://www.defra.gov.uk/statistics/files/defra-stats-foodfarm-food-pocketbook-2011 "The proportion of spend on meat has remained...

Not sure what you mean by "increasing numbers of meat/dairy building welfarisim into their marketing campaigns". If you meant that retailers use messages about animal welfare in their advertising, I...

Which empirical evidence?

The first vegans I ever remember meeting were at a CIWF demo against live exports, and I didn't have any trouble grasping that they were against consumption of animal products but for improving the...

I also agree with Pat, I have yet to be convinced that improving animal welfare increases the prevalence of meat-eating. There is always going to be the odd backslider trying to justify themselves...

I think the term "abolitionism" originated with the campaigns against slavery. I don't know much about it but it looks as if there might have been a similar policy disagreement back then as some of...

I've heard/read this a few times, but is there any statistical evidence to support the idea that this happens in significant numbers? I have heard a few anecdotes to this effect, but I have also come...

I agree with that, and I also don't feel there's any contradiction between wanting to end meat-eating and wanting to improve the way animals reared for food are treated in the meantime.

I haven't...