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weighing live fish and dispatching them to order? Birds packed in ridiculously tight? I should have said gratuitous cruelty. Dog and cat eating are on the way out (a South China thing). Bear gall...

Regarding Chinese:

Symbol of pig with a roof over it has become the character for 'home', so integral is pig-eating to the identity of the Chinese: slaughtering and serving pig is essentially...

So, the makers of The Cove should have been explicitly promoting veganism instead by your logic? See how tricky it gets?

When Gary chimes in about groups in competition to his following, he...

At the risk of repeating myself, I object to Gary's notion of causation. Welfare improvement caused higher consumption (from all us vegans that suddenly decided to tuck into flesh afterall?) Rising...

Convoluted, eh, Peabrain? Just remember, anyone flying the banner of Abolition reserves the right to criticize the actions and or motivation of those that help actual animals.

I'll go with that, Blueberries. It is an entry point, the thin end of the wedge.

I have just heard on occasion, rhetoric that makes us pet-do-gooders out to be the enemy. Not here of course. :-)

It is a lie to bring in legislation for breeders; it is a lie to raise standards for agro-business; it is a lie to try to improve the lives of existing animals?
Not all of us care to wait for One...

Yes, we all now have stated that we are pro abolition.

The point of the thread, I assume, is to weed out those diabolical welfare activists. That would be me :eek:

Oh, I do buy all the ethical arguments promoting vegan orgs as preeminent, in theory. But strategically, that's where the shades of gray come in.

Where there is a viable effective vegan group to...

I'm with you here, Korn: "Vegans don't need to define if we are abolitionist or not. We are vegans, so we already are against animal cruelty and animal exploitation - period. But do we need to figure...

That's where I get snippy with abos: for any breach of the code, we welfarists get lumped in with happy-meat butchers.

I reckon abos go back further than old Gary:
in '95 while interning at...

No, you are not offensive at all; just my impatience showing.

I have yet to read any substantiating numbers that 'prove' the abolitionist ideology gets results. That is where I get stuck.

As a...

I was actually told by an abolitionist (with deep pockets and his own endowment fund) that opening more shelters was a feel-good waste of time and I was perpetuating suffering.

Campaigning against...

...Have gotten us nowhere

That's the thing: how do we measure progress? If only by total absolute worldwide veganism than by definition we are all failing. Easy to point the blame finger.

So...

Did my requisite reading: nothing new there.

Many well argued points but some border on the absurd:
"Ironically, animal welfare reform may actually increase animal suffering. Assume that we are...

Well said, Prawnil.

If we weren't working for improved living conditions for captive animals would we then stand by as conditions worsened?

If you want to shout from the rooftops, Emzy, good on...

Yup, you can speak for me anytime, Mahk.

and Tigerlily, finding good literature that you agree with and that actually gets read and possibly understood, can be a minefield. Free and available is...

Association or cause and effect? Meat consumption may indeed go up or down but pinpointing the relationship can be throwing darts blindfolded.

I have seen Austrian fur farms and seen fur on nearly...

Was that rhetorical, Tigerliy?

It just perked my ears up to the endless squabbling between the two camps.

Reminds me of the old joke, "what's a liberal firing squad?" "form a circle"

Not...

Yes, abolitionist but I must say that I part company with that general strategy: ignore suffering of existing animals until ultimate liberation. Ain't holding my breath.

Very much agree with Jonny...