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    Re: being vegan leading to life/career changes.

    I think the fact that you see yourself as a hypocrite says enough. Your own conscience senses a conflict between your values and actions. Would it help if I said you are or aren't doing enough? I...
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    Re: being vegan leading to life/career changes.

    I'd be hard pressed to claim 'purity' in all aspects of my life. There have been discussions on this forum about the use of medications containing animal-derived ingredients, such as gelatin - for...
  3. Thread: Sentience

    by fiver
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    Re: Sentience

    _evelyn,

    Perhaps the contention surrounding usage of these terms stems from the limitations of language to describe consciousness? How can one see, eat, feel pain or pleasure without being aware...
  4. Thread: Sentience

    by fiver
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    Re: Sentience

    Francione seems to think that Regan's criteria (even as a sufficient condition) is too restrictive and human-centric with regards to mental faculties. Until he clarifies, it doesn't seem like an...
  5. Thread: Sentience

    by fiver
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    Re: Sentience

    As I understand it, sentience at a minimum implies some sort of SELF-awareness, even in the most limited sense. For example, some plants can be observed to respond to external stimuli - venus fly...
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    Re: I Have no clue where to start.

    Hi Jay. You might start by researching products that are easily obtainable in your area. When I first became vegetarian I began replacing the meat in meals with comparable substitutes (marinated tofu...
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    Re: Are you an abolitionist or a welfarist?

    I got the impression someone objected to the use of untested medical theories in practice, as that would be 'an abuse of those who are first to receive unproven treatments'. Maybe I misunderstood,...
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    Re: Are you an abolitionist or a welfarist?

    I didn't disagree with what you wrote, your suggestions. :) I don't see how trial and error is avoidable. The scientific process comes up with theories about how things such as our bodies work. These...
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    Re: Are you an abolitionist or a welfarist?

    Harpy, as I see it you're trying to argue around this point I made earlier:



    Of course, we should try to do as much research as we can before ANY pre-clinical or clinical trial. But......
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    Re: Are you an abolitionist or a welfarist?

    NO! Absolutely not.



    There must a problem with my communication then, because I have tried to correct this faulty perception of my statements numerous times.

    If two people are facing...
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    Re: Are you an abolitionist or a welfarist?

    Which is precisely the type of scenario that Harpy and I were discussing - "burning houses", terminal illnesses.



    No, it's not a different argument. That is a fine example of medical...
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    Re: Are you an abolitionist or a welfarist?

    I don't have anything else to add. I don't agree that such a treatment would be exploitative. Given two people in the same predicament, neither of whom is there because they were treated with...
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    Re: Are you an abolitionist or a welfarist?

    I don't agree that such a treatment would be exploitative. If someone is already in a "burning house", or has a terminal illness then they already face imminent death if nothing is done. You imply...
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    Re: Are you an abolitionist or a welfarist?

    Fair point. In the second statement I refer to an experimental therapy which is applied with the express purpose of helping the subject of the experiment (as opposed to doing nothing and letting them...
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    Re: Are you an abolitionist or a welfarist?

    Harpy, PLEASE! :p How can you extract that from my last post? My first statement says 'no experiments on ANY human or animal merely to benefit others'. My second statement applies equally to both...
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    Re: Are you an abolitionist or a welfarist?

    I'll have one last go at clarifying what I wrote:

    I don't believe that any human or animal should be used merely as a tool to benefit others. I don't believe anyone should be made a guinea pig in...
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    Re: Are you an abolitionist or a welfarist?

    Yes, 'fire' can be understood both literally and metaphorically. Either way, Harpy implied that my RIGHTS view allows for the exploitation of the mentally impaired:



    This is VERY insulting and...
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    Re: Are you an abolitionist or a welfarist?

    I have no idea how you interpreted what I wrote as excusing setting mentally impaired individuals on fire. Re-read - 'an emergency scenario ... in which no individual has been placed in that...
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    Re: Are you an abolitionist or a welfarist?

    While I agree with your assertion that the results of experiments performed upon animals are not always applicable to humans, it seems an undeniable implication of any anti-testing argument which...
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    Re: Are you an abolitionist or a welfarist?

    A cancer sufferer with no other chance of recovery is hesitant to undergo an experimental therapy, without knowing whether it will cure them, worsen their condition or kill them. Hands up those who...
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    Re: Are you an abolitionist or a welfarist?

    No. According to an animal RIGHTS rather than WELFARE position, we must emphasise the ethical IMPERATIVE of treating past and present self-aware individuals with respect. We fail to treat them with...
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    Re: Are you an abolitionist or a welfarist?

    Good question. I tend to agree that welfarist reforms are attractive to people because it is unlikely that a mass change of consciousness will occur. However, as attractive as they seem I have...
  23. Re: Animal Euthanasia - A Responsibility or Cruelty?

    IMO, euthanasia ("mercy killing") is not a strictly vegan issue. I don't think there will be a separate vegan and non-vegan answer to the question. The relationship that one has with a pet (animal in...
  24. Re: Distinction between species and making a connection.

    Excellent post, Wraithling.
  25. Thread: Earthlings

    by fiver
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    Re: Sign this petition to get Earthlings aired on Television.

    I recently convinced my parents to watch both Earthlings & Peaceable Kingdom. Here is a short summary of non-vegan reactions to the films:

    Earthlings is undoubtedly more comprehensive, as it deals...
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    Poll: Re: Going vegan - was it easy for you?

    Omni -> lacto-veg required the most "effort". Although, I had started to form moral convictions which made it impossible for me to continue being omni. Aside from a couple of slip-ups :(, it wasn't...
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    Poll: Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Can you be vegan without also flogging a dead horse?
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    Re: Interference with wild animals

    That is also my attitude.
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    Re: Interference with wild animals

    Thanks for posting. I'll need to think about this some more. :)
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    Interference with wild animals

    Hi,

    This may be totally pointless.

    I am considering joining the Animal Ethics Committee at my local University. I have no idea how much of an effect this might have (or if anyone else has...
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    Re: What about the farmers???

    * What about the slave owners/traders? People who are involved in ethically bankrupt industries which violate the rights of individuals are in no position to claim foul when those industries suffer...
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    Poll: Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    *fiver confesses that he has little faith in the human race or his fellow males* :(

    Also, *laments the fact that there is only one frowning icon! How is he supposed to express the depths of his...
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    Poll: Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    I am serious. That may seem 'funny on its own' (an overreaction), but given the circumstances it's inconsiderate on his part. :(
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    Poll: Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    What a bastard! :mad:
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    Poll: Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    How many people here believe in a 'just universe'?
    (either that god/nature/the natural world actively intervenes in human affairs to punish injustices and/or teach people moral lessons OR that...
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    Poll: Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Cupid... I am concerned about lifeforms which have a mental life, a sense of self, which can experience pain, which have conscious interests in not being harmed. MORESO, those which are autonomous...
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    Poll: Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Look on the bright side Cupid. Majorities don't make things right. Truth and sound arguments do.
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    Poll: Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    I don't agree. You're the first vegan I've encountered who has said that.



    Racists override *ethically relevant* similarities (for example, the interests that people of ALL races have in not...
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    Poll: Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    OMG, my sperm are running amok! They are out of control. :D
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    Poll: Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Did you read my post? The logic used by racists and speciesists is equivalent. They both say that group membership overrides ethically relevant similarities that are shared by beings belonging to...
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