Beer

[Pob]

I have emailed them before. The rest of their stuff uses isinglass, so presumably they know what's what. As well as that the Sainsbury one is labelled vegan, so I think we can trust those to be vegan.

[Corum]

Sadly, the Wychwood brewery got taken over a few months ago by some national brewer. They've reduced the strength on a few of their beers and upped the price, so I am currently avoiding them. Which is sad as they used to do some very nice beers, such as Black Wych Stout.

[Pob]

Was that vegan? It was about a year ago I asked, and only the organic bottles were vegan.

[Corum]

who knows...? But seeing as I wasn't Vegan when they stopped making it, we'll never know

[Cumin]

An update on Bulmer etc. I had a call from Scottish and Newcastle brewery.
Bad news. To add to the "cross-contamination" fud (noted by Risker):
Although most of the Bulmers, Strongbow and Woodpecker ciders made in Hereford are definitely not made with any animal products (with the exceptions listed by Risker before), there is another problem. Apparently, at times of high sales (e.g. summer), They may bulk import these ciders from another plant in europe which almost certainly uses other methods for clarification (e.g. isinglass), and package them identically. Subsequently NONE of these ciders can be reliably taken as vegan.
The exception (I'm checking this) is Scrumpy Jack, as that is owned and managed by another company. They may do a similar thing, but at the moment this is not clear.
There is no way to tell from the can/bottle whether the cider you bought was made in the UK or europe so it must be assumed that it may not be vegan.

sigh.

[Frosty]

C**ts This is worse than when my friend died. This is going to make it so hard when drinking in bars now. There are very few places that have a decent selection of cider, and I don't really like lager - it's too filling and makes me sick; especially Carlsberg, it has more bubbles than a bath full of Radox. They're going to lose an awful lot of money from me now. F***ing ba****ds I'm one unhappy Frost!

[Frosty]

I've just gone onto the Carlsberg website, it's only about three and half percent, I'd drown before I got pi**ed on that stuff!!

[alisont]

Not good, I shall order another box of thatchers I think, im not keen on strongbow really, but thatchers is vegan, hope they are!

Scrumpy jack is ok not had it in a while as not that keen on canned cider/beer, bottled seems to taste better or on tap but wish more places did thatchers on tap

[Frosty]

Yeah, I definately prefer cider out of the bottle/tap. Weird that.

The Greyhound Inn opposite the prison in Stafford is my local, and they have a large selection of Thatchers, on tap and in bottle. They have a Cider Slush Puppy type thing on tap as well, and it's divine! Especially in this weather.

[alisont]

Theres a pub in worcester near chesters and smile that does the cider slush - could drink one of those now!

wonder if i put a bottle of thatchers in the freezer if it would go icy - slushy?

the local by work has thatchers gold on tap - trouble is we dont go round lunchtimes as cant drink when at work!

[Frank]

C**ts

F***ing ba****ds :

Frosty - a neutral observer might think that this has upset you somewhat.....

[Frosty]

Haha, only a little Frankie The ****'s

[Stu]

An update on Bulmer etc. I had a call from Scottish and Newcastle brewery.
Bad news. To add to the "cross-contamination" fud (noted by Risker):
Although most of the Bulmers, Strongbow and Woodpecker ciders made in Hereford are definitely not made with any animal products (with the exceptions listed by Risker before), there is another problem. Apparently, at times of high sales (e.g. summer), They may bulk import these ciders from another plant in europe which almost certainly uses other methods for clarification (e.g. isinglass), and package them identically. Subsequently NONE of these ciders can be reliably taken as vegan.
The exception (I'm checking this) is Scrumpy Jack, as that is owned and managed by another company. They may do a similar thing, but at the moment this is not clear.
There is no way to tell from the can/bottle whether the cider you bought was made in the UK or europe so it must be assumed that it may not be vegan.

sigh.

F*****g ****s with great ******s hanging from their ******s and no ***** or ***, despite the *****s they always insist on ****ing their ******s like total, complete and utter ***s.

[Gorilla]

^^ what he said.

[Frosty]

I'm glad I'm not the only one disappointed in this

[Mr Flibble]

So, is Strongbow made in another factory in europe and sold there as strongbow or do they buy a generic cider from any plant that looks and tastes the and call it strongbow in times of high demand? If it's always from the same one could it be checked with them?

[Marrers]

wonder if i put a bottle of thatchers in the freezer if it would go icy - slushy?

In my experience putting the bottle in the freezer does not achieve a good effect on anything carbonated - they freeze unevenly and you risk the bottle shattering. But I think you could achieve this effect as I've accidentally done it before, using freezer sleeves (those frozen jackets you take out of the freezer to chill wine and beer within 5 minutes).

You'll need at least two, maybe even three freezer sleeves designed for beer or canned drinks. Start with a well chilled cider, put the first freezer sleeve on it for 5-10 minutes. Then replace that with a second freezer sleeve for a similar length of time, then the third if you want even more icy. Leave the sleeve on as you drink it if possible. (If you try it let me know how it goes!)

eta Rapid Ice is the most effective one in my opinion.

[snaffler]

There is only one really true ice cider that is cider over cider ice ! good old westons who also make the best cider in the world according to my taste buds

http://www.westons-cider.co.uk/image...19_1582365.pdf

[Pob]

I noticed the new design bottles of Weston's don't say vegan anymore. This was on a premium organic bottle. Just says suitable for vegetarians and coeliacs.

I take it they are still vegan, though?

[Gorilla]

that's odd. didn't they used to have the Vegan Society Logo? maybe they just don't want to pay for it any more.

[Frosty]

Why does getting pi**ed have to be so complicated?

[Cumin]

So, is Strongbow made in another factory in europe and sold there as strongbow or do they buy a generic cider from any plant that looks and tastes the and call it strongbow in times of high demand? If it's always from the same one could it be checked with them?

The guy I spoke to at Scot&New seemed to think that it may come from a number of plants over which they have no knowledge. He also said it as very likely that some kind of clarifier is used there, rather than the cross-flow filtration. You may be right that it's the same brand, but I suspect that validating that would be VERY hard.

[Risker]

Since it was mentioned in another thread that some Grolsch might not be vegan...

Hi,
Please could you tell me if Grolsch is suitable for vegans (i.e. not filtered with isinglass etc.) I've heard that 'crown top' Grolsch may not be?

We thank you for your enquiry. We can confirm that Isinglass Finings are not used during the production of Grolsch, and Grolsch suitable for both vegetarians and vegans.

[Mahk]

"Grolsch (a Dutch beer) served from a spring top bottle has for a long time been suitable for vegans, but Grolsch served from a bottle with a crown cork is not suitable for vegans."
Source.
Vegan: "Grolsch (except crown top)"
VegansocietyUK
"Even then, the answer may not be straightforward. For example, some "versions" of Grolsch (spring top) may be suitable for vegans, whereas others (bottle with crown cork) may not"
Source.
I assume "crown top" means typical metal beer bottle top, right? This is all very confusing. I've never understood the logic why they'd have a different process depending on what bottle type they use but I've seen this from several sources. I don't know what to think.

How recent was your correspondence with Grolsch, Risker?

[Risker]

I emailed them yesterday and got the response today.

[Mahk]

I can't seem to access the "animal free shopper list" of the vegan society, even though I think I am registered, perhaps because I have an out of country IP address? What does it currently say, I wonder?

[starlight]

Hi all

does anyone know if Leffe is vegan or not?

[scoultas]

I noticed the new design bottles of Weston's don't say vegan anymore. This was on a premium organic bottle. Just says suitable for vegetarians and coeliacs.

I take it they are still vegan, though?

I emailed Westons on Sunday, they replied today:

Many thanks for your enquiry.

Our products are suitable for Vegetarians & Coeliacs.

Our products are no longer suitable for vegans due to the origin of the lactic acid used during fermentation.


Kind regards

Lesley

[Risker]

Ugh...

[Mr Flibble]

bastards!

Poor Frosty

[Gorilla]

i'm really not happy about this. they're getting a strongly-worded email from me

[Mahk]

I'm not in the UK but I would suggest people ask in their emails what they derive there lactic acid from or who is their supplier of lactic acid so we can ask the actual producer directly.

To the best of my knowledge there are no lactic acid manufacturers in existence that use milk as their source. Is it possible? Sure, just like milk can be used as the source ingredient to make water. No one does it that way though; it would be extremely expensive! Lactic acid is made by fermentation of corn, dextrose, sugar [bone char possibility for some countries I suppose], beet sugar or tapioca, according to my sources.

I think what we have here is an example of a non-food-scientist answering the question "Where does lactic acid come from"? All s/he has is a high school education and they remember "lact" means "milk". End of story.

[toffo]

I'm not in the UK but I would suggest people ask in their emails what they derive there lactic acid from or who is their supplier of lactic acid so we can ask the actual producer directly.

To the best of my knowledge there are no lactic acid manufacturers in existence that use milk as their source. Is it possible? Sure, just like milk can be used as the source ingredient to make water. No one does it that way though; it would be extremely expensive!

I think what we have here is an example of a non-food-scientist answering the question "Where does lactic acid come from"? All s/he has is a high school education and they remember "lact" means "milk". End of story.

Mahk i do hope that you are right about this, it just seems so strange to me that this is possible. I purchased a bottle of Westons premium organic cider two days ago and it still said suitable for vegans on the bottle.
I only live 3 miles away from their cider plant so next time i pass i might go in and ask some questions!

[Gorilla]

the wording "Our products are no longer suitable for vegans due to the origin of the lactic acid used during fermentation" suggests that they are aware that there could be more than one origin of lactic acid, and that the one they're using is not vegan. i hope i'm wrong...

[Mahk]

Or maybe they are actually saying, "We have no idea and don't care to research it for you." That would be typical of a US company when asked such a question. [I'm allowed to say that because I am an American. ]

Purac is the world's largest producer of lactic acid. From their FAQ page:

3. How is lactic acid produced and is it related to milk?

PURAC L(+)-lactic acid and lactates are 100% natural products, with carbohydrates (such as beet sugar) as their raw material. The production process (fermentation with the aid of bacteria) is also natural. In addition to L(+)-natural lactic acid, there is also so-called synthetic lactic acid available on the market. This product is less suitable for use in cosmetic formulations because it triggers irritation and is only 50% active. If lactic acid or lactates are to be used in cosmetic products, always insist on natural L(+)-lactic acid!

Because lactic acid (officially known as 2-hydroxy propionic acid) was first discovered in 1780 by the Swedish chemist Scheele in a sample of spoiled milk, it was named lactic acid. There is no other relation to milk and PURAC L(+)-lactic acid and lactates (sodium and potassium lactate) are clear, water white and low-viscous liquids with a mild odor. All other mineral salts are powders. [emphasis mine]

I assume no one here in the forum can find a single lactic acid manufacturer who publicly states "We use milk as our source material". It's only hypothetical.

[toffo]

I emailed westons asking specific questions about the lactic acid.
I received this somewhat confused reply:

Hi

We are reconsidering our position as some large customers have asked us to state that the cider is not suitable for vegans due to the use of lactic acid in the fermentation process.

Our supplier of lactic acid has confirmed that the product is suitable for vegans.

Whilst we are reviewing this situation we felt it would be better to remove the statement from the bottles and website.

Kind regards

Lesley

It seems that their large customers ie. the supermarkets just told them to remove the vegan labelling even thought the the lactic acid is not a problem. Just shows the power of the large supermarkets.
So, surely contrary to earlier emails posted in this thread their cider is still vegan.

[gogs67]

I emailed westons asking specific questions about the lactic acid.
I received this somewhat confused reply:

Hi

We are reconsidering our position as some large customers have asked us to state that the cider is not suitable for vegans due to the use of lactic acid in the fermentation process.

Our supplier of lactic acid has confirmed that the product is suitable for vegans.

Whilst we are reviewing this situation we felt it would be better to remove the statement from the bottles and website.

Kind regards

Lesley

It seems that their large customers ie. the supermarkets just told them to remove the vegan labelling even thought the the lactic acid is not a problem. Just shows the power of the large supermarkets.
So, surely contrary to earlier emails posted in this thread their cider is still vegan.

It seems that some vegans may have been getting onto their 'large customers' without checking their facts properly!

[Mahk]

Another possibility is either the supermarket(s) or they themselves are tired of the constant onslaught of emails which read, to paraphrase:
"How dare you label your product as "vegan" when you clearly include lactic acid in the ingredients. Don't you know that lactic acid comes from milk, and vegans don't consume milk? I'm mad at you, will boycott you, and will tell all my friends to do so as well."

Of course this is not true, lactic acid doesn't come from milk, but 99% of the general population doesn't know this. This could so easily be remedied by the inclusion of "(vegetable source)" immediately after the "lactic acid" listing in their ingredients list. Perhaps someone might suggest this to them. All parties would benefit: Westons, the supermarkets, the lay public that doesn't know where lactic acid comes from, their customer relations staff, and finally us vegans. It is a win-win scenario.

[toffo]

Another possibility is either the supermarket(s) or they themselves are tired of the constant onslaught of emails which read, to paraphrase:
"How dare you label your product as "vegan" when you clearly include lactic acid in the ingredients. Don't you know that lactic acid comes from milk, and vegans don't consume milk? I'm mad at you, will boycott you, and will tell all my friends to do so as well."

Of course this is not true, lactic acid doesn't come from milk, but 99% of the general population doesn't know this. This could so easily be remedied by the inclusion of "(vegetable source)" immediately after the "lactic acid" listing in their ingredients list. Perhaps someone might suggest this to them. All parties would benefit: Westons, the supermarkets, the lay public that doesn't know where lactic acid comes from, their customer relations staff, and finally us vegans. It is a win-win scenario.

There is no ingredients list on the labels, and lactic acid is not mentioned at all.

[Mahk]

OK, but clearly some people, including their "large customers" are privy to this information though:

"We are reconsidering our position as some large customers have asked us to state that the cider is not suitable for vegans due to the use of lactic acid in the fermentation process." [emphasis mine]

[scoultas]

I emailed westons asking specific questions about the lactic acid.
I received this somewhat confused reply:

Hi

We are reconsidering our position as some large customers have asked us to state that the cider is not suitable for vegans due to the use of lactic acid in the fermentation process.

Our supplier of lactic acid has confirmed that the product is suitable for vegans.

Whilst we are reviewing this situation we felt it would be better to remove the statement from the bottles and website.

Kind regards

Lesley

It seems that their large customers ie. the supermarkets just told them to remove the vegan labelling even thought the the lactic acid is not a problem. Just shows the power of the large supermarkets.
So, surely contrary to earlier emails posted in this thread their cider is still vegan.

Just got exactly the same email response myself, after I emailed them to ask exactly why they chose to change the lactic acid source from that used previously.

How frustrating!

So there's no change, it should still be just as vegan as it ever was, but the labelling has gone.

[gogs67]

Another possibility is either the supermarket(s) or they themselves are tired of the constant onslaught of emails which read, to paraphrase:
"How dare you label your product as "vegan" when you clearly include lactic acid in the ingredients. Don't you know that lactic acid comes from milk, and vegans don't consume milk? I'm mad at you, will boycott you, and will tell all my friends to do so as well."

.

That was my point!

[sandra]

It would put your head away!

I love Weston's cider and just bought large quantities of the older vintage cider because I thought the new stuff wasn't vegan anymore.
Ah well, I'll just have to drink this stuff quicker than I thought now as I will need to buy more of the new stuff when it comes out.

[Mahk]

That was my point!

Sorry if I was being repetitious there, gogs. To tell you the truth your expression "to get onto" in this sentence went right over my head [eluded me] :

It seems that some vegans may have been getting onto their 'large customers' without checking their facts properly!

We don't use this expression in the States so I don't know what it means. I tried to look it up in an on-line dictionary of idioms and slang expressions to no avail. From the context I can only guess it means "to challenge", ""to complain", or "to harass".

I also have no clue (don't understand) what Sandra means by:

"It would put your head away! "

I can tell it is something negative only due to the inclusion of the frown emoticon at the end but otherwise I don't understand her meaning. Would someone please explain to this ignorant Yank (me) what is meant by these two expressions? Also can other things than "heads" be "put away" or it it used exclusively for heads.

Thanks.

P.S. To all, not specifically gogs: I worry the differences in some of our slang words, idioms, and expressions has caused some animosity and misinterpretations in some of our threads. [not this one though]

[Gorilla]

don't worry Mahk! i think gogs is indeed meaning some people may have been complaining to the large customers. i've never heard Sandra's expression before but i assume she means it's enough to make you upset, or words to that effect.

i got the very same email from Westons too. i don't understand why their 'large customers' would tell them to remove the vegan labelling when it wasn't common knowledge that lactic acid was used in the production at all.

[sandra]

Sorry Mahk...........'Put your head away' is a Northern Irish saying meaning........it would put you mad..........do your head in..........confuse you..........etc.
I was referring to the fact that even when we do try and contact manufacturers about ingredients etc we still can't be sure they give us the correct information!
We just have to do as best we can in this world as it is at the moment!

[Cumin]

Update to my previous posts about Bulmers brands...

I finally got some more clarification from Scottish & Newcastle.
Woodpecker and Scrumpy Jack are specifically english ciders and are therefore made only in Herefordshire at the Bulmers plant.
This means that they can both be relied up as being vegan !
The same still cannot be said for Bulmers & Strongbow (as I said before)

[Mahk]

'Put your head away' is a Northern Irish saying meaning........it would put you mad..........do your head in..........confuse you..........etc.

Thanks Sandra (and Gorilla) for the explanations. What's funny is 2 of the 3 translations also make no sense in "American English" For "it would put you mad" we'd perhaps say "put you in a bad mood" or "make you mad". "Do your head in" has no meaning or translation I can think of but luckily "confuse you" is easily understood by us.

This means that they can both be relied up as being vegan !

"Relied up" isn't used here either, but I get the meaning.

[Frosty]

Cheers Cumin I'll be on the Scrumpyliscious stuff from now on then. It's the same price as 'bow, but 0.8% stronger. Cool!

[Stu]

Woodpecker and Scrumpy Jack are specifically english ciders and are therefore made only in Herefordshire at the Bulmers plant.
This means that they can both be relied up as being vegan !

You da man.

Nice work, Cumipopples!