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Thread: Fluoride

  1. #1
    Sheila's Avatar
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    Question Fluoride

    I went to the dentist today and they told me that I needed to use a fluoride toothpaste or rinse. I am very confused right now. I have been researching this because for some reason I thought fluoride was not good for you.

    There are many, many sites out there that think fluoride is toxic and others think it's a miracle. Currently I am using a natural sea salt paste which I love but does not contain flouride.

    Does anyone know the real truth about fluoride?

    Thanks,
    Sheila
    "Take the path of least harm"

  2. #2
    perfect RedWellies's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fluoride

    I'm afraid I don't know the "real truth" but I too have read the reports that fluoride is toxic. I have also seen pictures that show it damages teeth! I prefer not to risk it. We are exposed to so many toxins, best to avoid those you can I think. Maybe the answer is to eat less sugary foods (and acidic ones too I believe), then your saliva can cope with cleaning your teeth for you! I also read that just brushing your teeth (no toothpaste) really helps to clean them.
    "Do what you can with what you have where you are."
    - Theodore Roosevelt

  3. #3
    Herbsman
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    Default Re: Fluoride

    I try to avoid fluoride. Scientific opinion is divided and it's difficult to find good scientific evidence that points one way or the other. Check some articles in The Ecologist, they might shed some light. Personally I think fluoride is completely unnecessary, as are most things we buy - it just exists to make money for the people that profit from producing it.

    couple of articles here

    http://www.theecologist.org/archive_...content_id=390
    http://www.theecologist.org/archive_...content_id=348 <--- there are no paragraph breaks in this one so it's a bit difficult to read...

  4. #4
    CATWOMAN sandra's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fluoride

    Don't they add fluoride to the drinking water in the U.K.?

  5. #5
    perfect RedWellies's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fluoride

    Some areas have it added, Sandra. Also in the US too I think.
    "Do what you can with what you have where you are."
    - Theodore Roosevelt

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Fluoride

    I have erosion on my teeth, and so I started taking fluoride, after that my teeth have been much better no more pains when I eat etc..
    I have also read about fluoride being dangerous, but it did help me anyway.

  7. #7
    Sheila's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fluoride

    Thanks everyone for the responses. It's just one of those things that I have a gut feeling saying it's wrong. It's like when I was little and they told me to drink my milk and I knew for some reason milk was bad even though I couldn't put my finger on it at the time.
    Sheila
    "Take the path of least harm"

  8. #8
    cvC
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    Default Re: Fluoride

    I think that something like eleven percent of the water supply in the British Isles is flouridated and 60% of the American one. Other ways in which people are exposed to flouride is in toothpaste, other dental treatments and some drugs, including anti-depressants such as Prozac and, for anyone going to countries like India to remember, the anti-malarial Lariam, and there are also countries where it is added to salt, including, in Europe, France, Germany Austria and Switzerland. Another way in which, in my view, people are being poisoned is with mercury fillings and something to remember about the white alternatives is that there's at least one type of those that contains fluoride. Below are some quotations from something that I saw at Rense a while ago and which is about a proposal for "all processed food and a large number of raw food commodities in New York" to be fumigated with sulfuryl fluoride, "which breaks down to fluoride in the human body":

    "Fluoridation is the greatest case of scientific fraud of this century"
    Robert Carlton, Ph. D., former U. S. EPA scientist on "Marketplace" Canadian Broadcast Company, Nov. 24, 1992.

    "Regarding fluoridation, the EPA should act immediately to protect the public, not just on the cancer data, but on the evidence of bone fractures, arthritis, mutagenicity and other effects"
    William Marcus, Ph. D., senior EPA toxicologist, Covert Action, Fall 1992, p. 66

    "The real reason behind water fluoridation is not to benefit children's teeth. If this were the real reason there are many ways in which it could be done that are much easier, cheaper, and far more effective. The real purpose behind water fluoridation is to reduce the resistance of the masses to domination and control and loss of liberty.

    "When the Nazis under Hitler decided to go into Poland, both the German General Staff and the Russian General Staff exchanged scientific and military ideas, plans, and personnel, and the scheme of mass control through water medication was seized upon by the Russian Communists because it fitted ideally into their plan to communize the world. ...

    "I was told of this entire scheme by a German chemist who was an official of the great IG Farben chemical industries and was also prominent in the Nazi movement at the time. I say this with all the earnestness and sincerity of a scientist who has spent nearly 20 years' research into the chemistry, biochemistry, physiology and pathology of fluorine--any person who drinks artificially fluorinated water for a period of one year or more will never again be the same person mentally or physically." - CHARLES E. PERKINS, Chemist, 2 October 1954.

    Quoting Einstein`s nephew, Dr. E.H. Bronner (a chemist who had also been a prisoner of war during WWII) in a letter printed in The Catholic Mirror, Springfield, MA, January 1952:

    "There is a sinister network of subversive agents, Godless 'intellectual' parasites, working in our country today whose ramifications grow more extensive, more successful and more alarming each new year and whose true objective is to demoralize, paralyze and destroy our great Republic--from within if they can, according to their plan--for their own possession.

    "The tragic success they have already attained in their long siege to destroy the moral fiber of American life is now one of their most potent footholds towards their own ultimate victory over us.

    "Fluoridation of our community water systems can well become their most subtle weapon for our sure physical and mental deterioration. ..

    "As a research chemist of established standing, I built within the past 22 years, 3 American chemical plants and licensed 6 of my 53 patents. Based on my years of practical experience in the health-food and chemical field, let me warn: fluoridation of drinking water is criminal insanity, sure national suicide. Don`t do it."

    http://www.rense.com/general73/dow.htm

    Here are a couple of anti-fluoridation sites:

    http://www.fluoridealert.org/
    http://bruha.com/pfpc/index.html

  9. #9

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    Default Re: Fluoride

    You NEED fluoride, just not in large amounts. Consuming too much fluoride can cause fluorosis, but this is with actual CONSUMPTION (not rinsing) of flouride. Subtract fluoride from your diet completely and you will suffer from multiple dental caries and eventually lose your teeth.

  10. #10
    cvC
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    Default Re: Fluoride

    My understanding is that flouride is harmful to both the teeth and the rest of the body and that it doesn't need much or to be ingested to have an effect. This is from an article about its use in drugs:

    "Andreas Schuld, who is the founder of Parents of Fluoride Poisoned Children headquartered in Canada (http://www.bruha.com/pfpc/), is considered by many at this time to be among the world's leading experts on fluorides. He states, 'IG Farben chemists discovered that fluorides were potent anti-thyroid substances back in the 1930s.'

    Following this discovery in Germany, thousands of patients in one clinic alone had their thyroid activity decreased through the administration of minute doses of fluoride compounds. One proven, effective method of administering this anti-thyroid medical treatment was by having the patients bathe in water dosed with minute amounts of fluoride compounds."

    http://www.rense.com/general63/flou.htm

  11. #11

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    Default Re: Fluoride

    I never used to use fluoride toothpaste but went back to it because I had bad teeth. I'm not sure of the truth.

    I know the above post is true. In absence of iodine, the thyroid will use fluoride.
    Last edited by insubordination; Aug 26th, 2006 at 11:49 AM. Reason: because I can't spell

  12. #12
    nervine
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    Default Re: Fluoride

    http://thedoctorwithin.com/index_fr....ge=content.php

    http://thedoctorwithin.com/index_fr...._longevity.php

    Fluoride destroys enzymes..

    The only thing that is bad for your teeth is acids. Sugar does fuckall to your teeth. It's the citric acid in softdrinks that will ruin your teeth not the sugar.
    Alcaline will neutralize acid so brush your teeth with plain barsoap. Keep one at the side to brush your teeth with. Or use kingfisher's toothpaste. It's made out of nothing but natural stuff. The purple one tastes particularly nice

  13. #13

    Default Re: Fluoride

    I use a fluoridated mouthwash, on my dentist's advice. My dentist is now happy, so I am happy.

    There are arguments on both sides of the camp, but on the whole I'm happy to trust the people whose job it is to look after my dental health.

  14. #14

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    Default Re: Fluoride

    I'm not sure about either argument for or against. What I do know is that I have fluorosis, as a result of eating a lot of toothpaste when I was a kid. I just liked the way it tasted! My front teeth look horrible, but I have no cavities. I currently alternate between a fluoride and non-fluoride toothpaste, I just don't swallow any more.

  15. #15

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    Default Re: Fluoride

    mn_nurse is correct. But a better way to say it is fluoride is the best thing available at preventing tooth decay. If you look at the Periodic Table, you will note that most things in Flouride's family (F, Cl, I, & Br) are all good at killing living things. Flouride kills bacteria that attack teeth better than anything else, while Cl, as you know, kills bacteria that attacks people. Iodine is used as an antiseptic (Wikipedia) and Bromine is nasty with human flesh, too (Wikipedia).

    The thing to understand is that Fluoride just kills the nasty stuff on our teeth, while the alternatives just clean teeth. Floride is supposed to assist in healing the teeth, too. Stannuous Floride is an even more powerful version of fluoride.

    Both sides are correct. Floride is poison, but don't swallow it. Fluoride can save your teeth and there seems to be nothing else does. Please take your dentist's advice and use fluoride. AFAIK, nothing else will improve your teeth's current condition.

    Quote mn_nurse View Post
    You NEED fluoride, just not in large amounts. Consuming too much fluoride can cause fluorosis, but this is with actual CONSUMPTION (not rinsing) of flouride. Subtract fluoride from your diet completely and you will suffer from multiple dental caries and eventually lose your teeth.

  16. #16
    PainterLady
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    Default Re: Fluoride

    Fluoride is a scam! It deadens a part of the human brain. Change dentists if he prescribes it! I did and haven't had a cavity in 25 years! My current Dentist is totally against fluoride!

  17. #17
    ♥♥♥ Tigerlily's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fluoride

    I think your arguments would be more affective if you have some links to prove your point. "Fluoride is a scam!" isn't going to convince most educated people.
    Peace, love, and happiness.

  18. #18
    PainterLady
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    Default Re: Fluoride

    http://www.fluoridealert.org/

    Basically fluoride is a waste by-product of phosphates used for fertilizer. It used to cost Florida (governor Bush) a lot of money to dispose of this toxic by-product, that is until cities across the country started buying it from Florida(Gov. Bush) to put in their water supplies by getting federal grants(president Bush)!

    Hopefully most educated people will do their own research.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Fluoride

    Erm, fluoridated water has been around since the 60s, I think. Making it a Bush conspiracy is probably a little bit of a reach.

  20. #20
    PainterLady
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    Default Re: Fluoride

    It has been poured into our water more now than ever via Florida.

  21. #21
    Seaside
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    Default Re: Fluoride

    Fluoride protects teeth not because it kills bacteria, but because its atomic size is the same as calcium, so that when the teeth lose calcium from their structure, the fluoride replaces it, creating a stronger tooth structure. But putting fluoride in toothpastes and rinses is a waste, since in order to get the protection fluoride provides, you must go to the dentist for a treatment, and then NOT SWALLOW FOR AT LEAST HALF AN HOUR, because fluoride is a poison.
    Fluoride is a necessary trace element for bone health, but there is plenty of it in ordinary black tea, occurring in an organic form. The reason why there is so much of it in toothpastes, mouthwashes, and drinking water is because people who make a profit from selling the chemical have convinced dentists, who get even less nutritional education than medical doctors, that fluoride is a good thing to put into these items. If the fluoride found in drinking water and over-the-counter dental hygiene products were capable of doing for the teeth what dental fluoride treaments do, the FDA would not allow it to be sold without a prescription. The FDA, however, does nothing to prevent poisons from being included in food and water if they don't exceed the minimum allowed concentrations. The trouble with this policy is that it does not cover cumulative damage, or the effects of combined toxins. The bottom line is that the kind of inorganic fluoride added to drinking water and hygiene products is a poison. I don't have any links, though, since I get my info from real books written by people who can be held accountable for publishing misinformation, unlike the sorts of things you can find on the internet.

    PainterLady, I've never used fluoride either, and my teeth are in great shape! My two younger, non-vegan brothers, however, who rely on conventional treament, have had all kinds of trouble with root canals, gum disease, etc.

  22. #22

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    Default Re: Fluoride

    Seaside's account of flouride is exactly right. Think of flouride like a medicine. It does work, but it has potential side effects. The risks to date are still somewhat unknown. But much like medicine, we can do fine without flouride provided we take good care of our teeth and eat healthfully.

    Flouride does have benefits when needed, much as medicine does, so it is not the most evil thing ever. It just isn't necessary for most people. Flouridated drinking water, however, is a very bad idea for most.

    Best,
    Josh

  23. #23

    Default Re: Fluoride

    we don't have flouride in the water, here in denmark. i use a flouride-free toothpaste myself, and haven't had any problems with my teeth. i'm on third year now.. well, as far as i have been able to research, flouride is supposedly making people kind of lazy, and is not that good for your brain. which would be a great liberal conspiracy, if it was known by the people who started putting it into toothpaste, but i don't really care about that stuff anymore. let the stupid ones be lazy i just won't put anything into my mouth that is not good for my body and brain.

  24. #24
    AR Activist Roxy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fluoride

    This link might be of interest, particularly to those in the USA.

    http://www.ewg.org/newsletter/20061129-fluoride/

  25. #25
    Seaside
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    Default Re: Fluoride

    Thanks Roxy. I tried to sign, but I keep getting a "page not found" error message when I hit the submit button.

  26. #26
    AR Activist Roxy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fluoride

    Aw that sucks. I didn't fill it out, because I'm not in the States. Thanks for trying though Seaside

  27. #27
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    Default Re: Fluoride

    Quote Roxy View Post
    This link might be of interest, particularly to those in the USA.

    http://www.ewg.org/newsletter/20061129-fluoride/
    I thought that link was interesting, but I hate reading about the ill effects of too much flouride since I have mild flourosis (my parents put flouride in my bottles when I was a baby because my dentist didn't think I got enough flouride). I hope I won't experience any ill effects (besides the fact that my teeth are always stained looking, no matter how clean they are). Hopefully flouride will get taken out from water supplies soon though. It seems like we're moving in that direction.

  28. #28
    AR Activist Roxy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fluoride

    Sorry Pascale!! I didn't mean to hurt your feelings, with my post. I'm really sorry that you're ill!

    If it helps any, my parents gave my brother and I fluoride as children too.

    I can't believe though, that in this day and age, that they would continue to sell such a product as Nursery Water!

  29. #29
    focus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fluoride

    Quote Roxy View Post
    This link might be of interest, particularly to those in the USA.

    http://www.ewg.org/newsletter/20061129-fluoride/

    I signed it, thanks for the info Roxy
    The love for all living creatures is the most noble attribute of man.

  30. #30
    AR Activist Roxy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fluoride

    You're welcome! And thanks for signing

  31. #31
    PainterLady
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    Default Re: Fluoride

    Fluorine is what is NATURAL. Fluoride is a toxic byproduct. The two different words trick people.

  32. #32
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    Default Re: Fluoride

    Sorry Pascale!! I didn't mean to hurt your feelings, with my post. I'm really sorry that you're ill!
    You didn't hurt my feelings! I just get a little angry at my parents every now and then for adding flourine to my baby bottles. Not much I can do now. I'm not really ill, I just have stained teeth (hopefully that's it).

    Fluorine is what is NATURAL. Fluoride is a toxic byproduct. The two different words trick people
    Just because it's natural doesn't mean it's safe.

  33. #33
    PainterLady
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    Default Re: Fluoride

    Fluorine also stains teeth? Yikes! My two bottom front teeth were also stained from fluoride when I was a baby! Luckily my fat bottom lip covers them, but they still bother me.

  34. #34
    Seaside
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    Default Re: Fluoride

    Actually fluoride is natural, PainterLady. It occurs in a really beautiful mineral called fluorite, which is composed of calcium fluoride (I have a crystal of it right in front of me as I type ). Its the ability of the fluorine ion to replace the calcium ion in crystal lattice structures that is exploited by dentists using fluoride to strengthen teeth. But the kind of fluoride byproduct generated by industry is probably a lot more impure than that which grows in nature.

  35. #35
    cherylglistner
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    Default Re: Fluoride

    Yeah, fluoride can be pretty harmful actually. I switched to this non-fluoride toothpaste called Cuprident and it works for me pretty well. I placed an embedded link for you guys to read up on it, but also because the site actually has a pretty good explanation on "the perils of fluoride"~lol. I just graduated dental school, so I can definitely see the cons associated with fluoride.

    ~Cheryl~

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  36. #36
    Pink Princess! ~*Sarah*~'s Avatar
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    Default Re: Fluoride

    this is something i've wanted to know about for a long time, as all the toothpastes i've used that were vegan made a point of being fluoride-free. left me pretty confused as my dentist told me to use fluoride toothpaste. im using Kingfisher atm, and i have a sainsburys toothpaste that has fluoride in but doesnt say if its vegan. does anyone know if it is vegan? or what toothpastes containing fluoride are vegan (UK) ?

    im happy using fluoride-free atm but think the odd use of fluoride would probably be good for my teeth. the thread has left me pretty confused and unsure of what to believe! i just dont wanna risk having bad teeth!

  37. #37
    Enchantress's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fluoride

    Kingfisher make both fluoride and fluoride-free toothpastes, all are vegan.

  38. #38
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    Default Re: Fluoride

    There is also a whole thread about toothpaste, http://veganforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=330 .

  39. #39
    cherylglistner
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    Talking Re: Fluoride

    Before I went to dental school - waaay back in high school - I was dubious of fluoride because I had this conspiracy theory that it gives you MORE cavities than it prevents. I mean, why would a dentist want you to have healthy teeth, right??? Wouldn't a dentist prefer to have his clients get cavities so he can make money?

    I don't believe this now obviously ~lol. But I suppose that may have been the root of my doubts about fluoride.

    ~Cheryl~

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  40. #40
    cherylglistner
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    Default Re: Fluoride

    Oops, I accidentally posted an embedded the link to Cuprident in my name. I didn't realize it was the last thing on my clipboard. My name is supposed to link to my Myspace page - lol. So my name below is the CORRECT link to my Myspace if any of you want to drop by;-)

    ~Cheryl~

  41. #41

    Default Re: Fluoride

    For UK bods, the Co-op does a range of animal-free toothpastes. They've got a BUAV logo on the back of the packet in a boxout including the magical words "No animal ingredients".
    Loose leaf for life.

  42. #42
    Pink Princess! ~*Sarah*~'s Avatar
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    Default Re: Fluoride

    Quote creature View Post
    For UK bods, the Co-op does a range of animal-free toothpastes. They've got a BUAV logo on the back of the packet in a boxout including the magical words "No animal ingredients".
    oo thats good theres one not far from us 24-hour as well

  43. #43
    Why hello! xwitchymagicx's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fluoride

    So that is why they always say "Don't swallow toothpaste" then. lol
    "It's not that people suddenly start breeding like rabbits; it's just that people stopped dropping like flies" - population explosion

  44. #44

    Default Re: Fluoride

    I'm a Kingfisher devotee but my teeth tend to feel better with the Fluoride included varieties. Rinse well though and avoid drinking water with high levels of the stuff.

  45. #45
    nervine
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    Default Re: Fluoride

    iv been brushing my teeth with baking soda for the past few week, feels very clean, cleaner than toothpaste, toothpastes that contain glycerin, even the ones without fluoride, still leave a thin layer on your teeth.

  46. #46
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    Default Re: Fluoride

    im unsure about flouride as of recently. i havent used it for 4 years and have recently been getting cavities and i never ever got them before.
    "you dont have to be tall to see the moon" - african proverb

  47. #47
    sizeT
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    Default Re: Fluoride

    Quote mn_nurse View Post
    You NEED fluoride, just not in large amounts. Consuming too much fluoride can cause fluorosis, but this is with actual CONSUMPTION (not rinsing) of flouride. Subtract fluoride from your diet completely and you will suffer from multiple dental caries and eventually lose your teeth.
    this is a very Bold statement! why does my teeth need flouride to survive? thats laughable...



    Flouride What it DOES do:

    Increase your risk of bone fractures
    Decrease your thyroid function
    Lower your IQ
    Cause arthritic-like conditions and dental fluorosis
    Possibly increase your risk of bone cancer


    600 Physicians, Dentists, Scientists and Environmentalists Call for an End to Fluoridation

    A statement asking Congress to end water fluoridation in the United States has been released by the Fluoride Action Network (FAN). Over 600 professionals, including a Nobel Prize winner, officers in the Union that represents Environmental Protection Agency professionals, and members of the National Research Council panel on fluoride's toxicology, have signed the statement.

    The report urges Congressional members to “recognize that fluoridation is outdated, has serious risks that far outweigh any minor benefits, violates sound medical ethics, and denies freedom of choice.”

    educate yourselves people.. DONT let other people "think" for you..
    find the truths in all things! if the majority is doing "it" it's WRONG

  48. #48
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    Default Re: Fluoride

    Last week, our State Premier (of Queensland, Australia) announced that all tap water in Qld will be treated with fluoride 'for the sake of our children'. There had been some letters to the local press recently, but then this announcement out of the blue. And who wants to be mean to 'our children'? However, where I live in this regional town, are there any children drinking tap water? they all seem to drink the fizzy stuff. Surely their parents, if worried, could buy fluoride toothpaste? or go to the dentist and get some free fluoride tablets to drop in a jug of tapwater for the children to pour their drinks from?

    It is infuriating to have this sprung on us. I have seen websites 'proving' that fluoride in the water is beneficial, and some saying it is deletarious. Who's right and who's wrong? I'd like a free choice.
    Eve

  49. #49
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    Default Re: Fluoride

    Quote creature View Post
    For UK bods, the Co-op does a range of animal-free toothpastes. They've got a BUAV logo on the back of the packet in a boxout including the magical words "No animal ingredients".
    Down near us the local co-op is completely crap when it comes to supplying anything of its own brand range, be it soap or deodorant, let alone toothpaste. For us to get anything we have to go to chav central (aka Peacehaven) where there is a co-op superstore.

    We use Kingfisher flouride-free toothpaste. We must be doing something right as I've just come out of the dentist with only a tiny bit of scraping, not a plaque-busting marathon!
    Born to Lose - Live to Win!

  50. #50
    Mahk
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    Default Re: Fluoride

    Although there are dozens of internet sites and books which caution about the “dangers” of fluoride (often pitching a rival product along with it…hmmm) I’ll tell you what there is not a single occurrence of: a medical institution, school, university, or general consumer watch group that advises against it. The only exceptions are quacks like Dr Mercola or “our-sole-agenda-is-to-condemn-fluoride-in-any-way-possible.com” type sites like the FAN mentioned earlier (which obviously are going to have a biased perspective). What there are, however, are hundreds of health organizations, worldwide, which support water supply fluoridation.

    Fluoridation of the water supply is dirt cheap and costs next to nothing. Its success in reducing cavities in the general population is well established, saves millions of dentist visits yearly, money, and lives. Unfortunately, millions of children in my country and others can’t afford basic dentistry and instead allow cavities to worsen, causing very serious side effects including death.

    Don’t listen to the scaremongers and the conspiracists; they are the same people who see the Virgin Mary in their grilled cheese sandwiches and think the moon landings were a hoax. This excellent article describes the typical techniques of FAN, and others, including solid medical references at the end.

    The only thing bad about fluoride is that it can cause fluorosis, a very subtle browning to the teeth (cosmetic in nature only) if taken in excess, but it turns out this was a blessing in disguise because it's how we discovered the dental benefits of fluoride to begin with. Fluoride occurs naturally in our water supplies, at various concentrations, per region. In the early 1900’s is was noted that the kids in a certain section of the US who had slightly brown teeth also had markedly fewer cavities, so a study was launched to discover why. The answer was their region’s naturally occurring level of fluoride. Later, the concentration level of 1 part per million was determined to be enough for the benefits of anti-tooth decay, yet caused minimal fluorosis.

    If the water supply in your part of world already is fluoridated, you shouldn’t additionally take fluoride pills. You also obviously shouldn't eat toothpaste. Also teach children that only a pea sized quantity is needed, so on the off chance they do eat it, their consumption will be low.

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