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Thread: Fluoride

  1. #51
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    Default Re: Fluoride

    Quote Mahk View Post
    Its success in reducing cavities in the general population is well established, saves millions of dentist visits yearly, money, and lives. Unfortunately, millions of children in my country and others can’t afford basic dentistry and instead allow cavities to worsen, causing very serious side effects including death.
    the only reason why I had so many fillings done when i was a child, was because the lovely NHS dentist was getting paid for putting them in! Some of the butchers I have endured over the years (for example taking four injections before my gum was even numb before trying to put a filling in) almost gave me a dentist phobia.
    Born to Lose - Live to Win!

  2. #52
    sizeT
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    Angry Re: Fluoride

    Although there are dozens of internet sites and books which caution about the “dangers” of fluoride (often pitching a rival product along with it…hmmm) I’ll tell you what there is not a single occurrence of: a medical institution, school, university, or general consumer watch group that advises against it. The only exceptions are quacks like
    are you for real?
    people are just brainwashed! if you dont beleive me, scroll up and check out what people think about flouride!

    what is wrong with people? why cant they think for themselves? is it the flouride thats lowering peoples IQ?

    if the majority are doing it, then its pobobly wrong! if your relying on your local news channel to guide your life. think for your self, turn off your TV its damaging your frontal lobe...

    On August 9, 2007, FAN released a Statement signed by over 600 professionals calling for an end to fluoridation and a call to legislators in fluoridating countries to hold hearings to determine why, after the release of the landmark National Research Council report in 2006, aggressive promotion of fluoridation continues

    UPDATE: 1,260 signers to Professionals' Statement as of 1-4-08.
    If you are a professional, add your name to the Statement.

    As of January 3, 2008, the signers include:
    While several signers have multiple degrees, they are listed below only
    once according to their highest degree (often a difficult call to make).

    • 185 PhD's (includes DSc, Doctor of Science)
    • 179 Dentists (DDS and DMD)
    • 163 MD's (includes MBBS)
    • 150 DC's (Doctor of Chiropractic)
    • 101 Nurses (RN and BSN)
    • 75 ND's (Doctor of Naturopathic Medicine)
    • 32 Lawyers (JD and LLB)
    • 25 RDHs (Registered Dental Hygienist)
    • 15 Pharmacists (Pharm.D, B. Pharm, RPH)
    • 17 Acupuncturists (LAc - Licensed Acupuncturist, and, MAc -Master Acupuncturist)
    • 13 DO's (Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine)

    • Arvid Carlsson, Nobel Laureate for Physiology or Medicine, 2000
    • The current President and six past Presidents of the International Academy of Oral Medicine and Toxicology
    • The Board of Directors, American Academy of Environmental Medicine
    • Two advisory board members of the UK government sponsored “York Review”
    • Theo Colborn, PhD, co-author, Our Stolen Future
    • Chris Bryson, author, The Fluoride Deception
    • Three officers in the union representing EPA professionals in DC
    • Ken Cook and Richard Wiles, President and Executive Director, Environmental Working Group (EWG)
    • Vyvyan Howard, MD, PhD, newly elected President, International Society of Doctors for the Environment (ISDE)
    • Peter Montague, PhD, Director of Environmental Health Foundation
    • Ted Schettler, MD, Science Director, Science and Environmental Health Network
    • Stephen Lester, Science Director, Center for Health, Environment, and Justice
    • Lois Gibbs, Executive Director, Center for Health, Environment, and Justice, Goldman Prize Winner (1990), Falls Church, VA
    • Pat Costner, retired Senior Scientist, Greenpeace International
    • Ron Cummins, Director, Organic Consumers Association
    • Sandra Duffy, Board President, Consumers for Dental Choice
    • Joseph Mercola, Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine, http://www.mercola.com, Chicago, IL
    • Leo Cashman, Executive Director of DAMS (Dental Amalgam Mercury Syndrome)
    • Sam Epstein, MD, author, “Politics of Cancer” and Chairman, Cancer Prevention Coalition
    • Jay Feldman, Executive Director, Beyond Pesticides
    • Prominent members of the Collegios Medicos, Puerto Rico
    • Four Goldman Prize winners (2006, 2003, 1995, 1990)
    • Gary Liss and other leaders in the Zero Waste movement
    • Lynn Margulis, PhD, a recipient of the National Medal of Science
    • Environmental leaders from over 30 countries, and
    • Legendary folksinger, songwriter and activist, Pete Seeger
    • Doug Everingham, former Federal Health Minister (1972-75), Australia

    http://www.fluoridealert.org/profess...statement.html

  3. #53
    Mahk
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    Default Re: Fluoride

    Quote sizeT View Post
    are you for real?
    Yes, I stand by my statement. There is not a single medical institution, medical school, medical university, or general consumer advocacy/watch group that advises against fluoridation of the water supply, at least in the parts of the world where the naturally occurring level is low, that is. Yes, there are many non-general "organizations" such as FAN that solely target fluoride, but they have no other agenda but to criticize fluoride, so they don't qualify as "general". By "general" [which it should be noted I also italicized in my original post] I mean a group similar to, for example, Consumer's Union (the publishers of Consumer Reports magazine) which focuses on many issues of public health (including their support of fluoride), not just a singular one.

    Care to name a medical body I've overlooked?

    As for the many individuals who signed FAN's petition to ban fluoride, if they really wanted to help the world, they should be concerned with an even more dangerous compound shown to kill hundreds of thousands of people, largely children, each year (according to recently disclosed World Health Organization documents I've uncovered). I'm of course talking about the deadly acid, dihydrogen monoxide (DHMO). I've studied its dangers both while in college and now as a concerned citizen mostly through the use of the internet. Don't be fooled by the propaganda of so called "experts" who say the claims of danger are all just a "hoax", it is a very real danger we all should be concerned with, regardless of age! Obviously, great financial incentives keep the government from disclosing the truth.

    The leading DHMO watchdog organization, working in conjunction with the US branch of the EAC (Environmental Assessment Center) is www.DHMO.org and their general FAQ page is a good introduction for those trying to learn the facts about DHMO and not fall for the propaganda and myths claiming it is totally safe. Please, everyone, I urge you to learn more and sign the petition, showing we are not gullible and won't let the government keep us in the dark regarding this important health issue any longer! It's time to stand up and be counted:

    Sign the petition to ban dihydrogen monoxide, once and for all, and help change the world, if not for us, at least for our children.

    For those of you who wish to dig a little deeper into the obvious conspiracy regarding the US government's Environmental Protection Agency's (EPA) refusal to even address the issue and thereby keep us in the dark, I recommend this page. Note: At the EPA link I just gave, try placing, in quotes, "dihydrogen monoxide" or "DHMO" into the search field at the top, for yourselves. Notice it fails to bring up even a single result. What are they trying to hide? I've tried to independently verify some of the facts but strangely when I attempt to my computer freezes or I get a "site no longer exists" message on my screen. I'm convinced the government, which controls the internet, has put into place a blocking mechanism to prevent the truth from being told.

    Remember everyone, do your own research and don't be fooled by those eager to pull the (vegan) wool over your eyes!

  4. #54
    sizeT
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    Default Re: Fluoride

    Quote Mahk View Post
    Yes, I stand by my statement
    obviously you have something to gain by flouride!

    "EPA has more than enough evidence to shut down fluoridation, right now, with a special advisory," says retired EPA scientist, Robert Carton, PhD. "The safe drinking water act requires the EPA to act to protect all populations from known or anticipated harm(8)," says Carton.

    When a rational, scientific mind looks at all the research, fluoridation is perhaps one of the biggest examples of stupid group think to hit modern civilization. But that doesn't stop the government from mandating fluoridation. Oh no. Nevermind that fluorine was used, quite effectively, to subdue inmates in prisons (the Nazis used it first, isn't that great?)
    • After 3 years of scrutinizing hundreds of studies, a National Research Council (NRC) committee “concluded that fluoride can subtly alter endocrine function, especially in the thyroid — the gland that produces hormones regulating growth and metabolism,”
    go read this page:

    SCIENTIFIC AMERICAN:
    Second Thoughts About Fluoride (Excerpts)
    http://www.fluoridealert.org/sc.am.jan.2008.html
    Page 78: Scientific attitudes toward fluoridation may be starting to shift in the country where the practice

    Page 80: The NRC committee concluded that fluoride can subtly alter endocrine function, especially in the thyroid

    Signers include a Nobel Prize winner, three members of the prestigious 2006 National Research Council (NRC) panel that reported on fluoride’s toxicology, two officers in the Union representing professionals at EPA headquarters, the President of the International Society of Doctors for the Environment, and hundreds of medical, dental, academic, scientific and environmental professionals, worldwide.

    Researcher Doris Jones has unearthed startling new evidence demonstrating that fluoride interferes with enzyme systems, damaging many organ systems of the body.

    http://www.healthy.net/scr/Article.asp?Id=4399

    Harvard University Study Shows Fluoridation-Cancer Link, Reports NYSCOF
    http://www.biospace.com/news_story.a...EntityId=14804


    New York State Coalition Opposed to Fluoridation (NYSCOF)
    http://www.orgsites.com/ny/nyscof/

    Fluoridation Never Proven Safe or Effective & Possibly Unethical, Reports British Medical Journal
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Medical_Journal

    Blood Lead Concentrations in Children and Method of Water Fluoridation in the United States, 1988–1994
    http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/art...?artid=1332668

    studies suggest that over-consumption of fluoride can raise the risks of disorders affecting teeth, bones, the brain and the thyroid gland
    http://www.fluoridenews.blogspot.com/

  5. #55
    Mahk
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    Default Re: Fluoride

    Quote sizeT View Post
    obviously you have something to gain by flouride!
    Yes I do. I don’t mean to brag, but I've never had a single cavity in my entire life. Thanks, fluoride! Yes, I know I’m lucky, but I definitely think the fluoride helped.

    I have no problem with the continuing study of fluoride (without animal testing, that is). My problem is with sensationalist scaremongering that opposes fluoridation with an almost religious fervor using deceptive propaganda and half-truths. The anti-fluoridationists have polarized the debate making the pursuit of truth increasingly difficult due to their underhanded methods of attack, such as the "laundry list" method used here. These types of attacks are typical of the anti-fluoridationists, often just cut and paste jobs of other people’s work, as we see here:
    .

    When a rational, scientific mind looks at all the research, fluoridation is perhaps one of the biggest examples of stupid group think to hit modern civilization. But that doesn't stop the government from mandating fluoridation. Oh no. Nevermind that fluorine was used, quite effectively, to subdue inmates in prisons (the Nazis used it first, isn't that great?)
    Um, I guess you forgot to put that last paragraph in quotes and cite your source. It’s clearly "taken" from this woman’s blog entry, word for word [second to last paragraph, second sentence] that I just happened to have stumbled upon while searching on the words "nazi" and "fluoridation". Also, she’s wrong. Despite hundreds of parroting repetitions of this rumor by many anti-fluoridationists in blogs and forums, there’s no credible evidence to support this rumor about the Nazis and fluoridated water, but I think I’ve discovered the source of this myth. Best I can tell, a man Stephenson has a self published book on “mind control” that asserts a guy called Dickinson knows of a letter written in 1954 by one “Charles Elliot Perkins” [I can’t find any other evidence of his existence other than this urban legend] which claims in a visit to Germany shortly after the end of the war "he was told" the Nazis "had plans" to attempt mind control by introducing "something" into the water supply. All told, there’s zero evidence they ever actually did so. Here’s one account of what that 1954 “letter" supposedly said, bad spelling left intact:

    “The real purpose behind water fluoridation is to reduce the resistance of the masses to domination and control and loss of liberty...
    Wen the Nazis, under Hitler, decided to go into Poland... the German General Staff and the Russian General Staff exchanged scientific and military ideas, plans and personnel and the scheme of mass control through water medication was seized upon by the Russian Communists because it fitted ideally into their plan to Communize the world...
    I say this in all earnestness and sincerity of a scientist who has spent nearly 20 years research into the chemistry, bio-chemistry, physiology and pathology of fluorine: any person who drinks artificially fluorinated water for a period of one year or more will never again be the same person, mentally or physically."


    Source.

    Wow, I guess after not just one year but rather 50 years the hundreds of millions of people who’ve had "fluorinated" water are just “not the same people, mentally or physically” that they should be. [I'd like to think we're better!]

    The Nazis (or the Communists) may have had aspirations of mind control, sure, but there’s no evidence they ever gave fluoridated water to inmates. That’s not true. Also the time line doesn’t work. The very first testing of the newly invented, mass water fluoridation process, both in the US and the UK, didn’t even start until December 1945, well after the conclusion of the war!

    I thought these paranoid “mind control” arguments against fluoride would have disappeared after the release of the 1964 movie classic Dr. Strangelove ridiculed them so thoroughly, but I guess I’m wrong. [The particular scene is 6m 45s in, but the war room scene before it is hilarious as well and worth watching.]:
    [YOUTUBE]OqvFhUn2Q6U[/YOUTUBE]

    In another scene:

    General Jack D. Ripper: You know when fluoridation first began?
    Group Capt. Lionel Mandrake: I... no, no. I don't, Jack.
    General Jack D. Ripper: Nineteen hundred and forty-six. Nineteen forty-six, Mandrake. How does that coincide with your post-war Commie conspiracy, huh? It's incredibly obvious, isn't it? A foreign substance is introduced into our precious bodily fluids without the knowledge of the individual. Certainly without any choice. That's the way your hard-core Commie works….
    [later]
    I can no longer sit back and allow Communist infiltration, Communist indoctrination, Communist subversion and the international Communist conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious bodily fluids.


    http://www.time.com/time/columnist/j...054993,00.html

    Although some recent reports by respectable sources have for the very first time in the half century long research of fluoridation given the anti-fluoridationists what that Scientific American article appropriately called “a tinge of legitimacy” (p74), still the NRC, Scientific American, and other researchers quoted in that article unanimously call for the continuation of fluoridation, however they do agree levels should probably be lowered in light of new evidence, including the fact that the ADA’s warning sticker on the toothpaste tubes isn’t being followed very well at all; kids are still swallowing toothpaste at alarming rates. [I personally think it should be illegal to make toothpaste sweet in the first place for this very reason.] Also besides water, dental visits, mouth wash, and toothpaste, many foods and beverages (some having naturally occurring fluoride levels double or even triple that of typical fluoridated water) are only just now being systematically measured and cataloged.


    SCIENTIFIC AMERICAN:
    Second Thoughts About Fluoride (Excerpts)
    http://www.fluoridealert.org/sc.am.jan.2008.html
    Page 78: Scientific attitudes toward fluoridation may be starting to shift in the country where the practice
    ...[began].

    ...“Instead of just pushing for more fluoride, we need to find the right balance.” says Levy, a dentist conducting the largest long-running fluoride study in history, tracking 700 Iowa children for the past 16 years and an advocate for fluoridation. That's what they mean by "shift", folks.

    Signers include a Nobel Prize winner, three members of the prestigious 2006 National Research Council (NRC) panel that reported on fluoride’s toxicology, two officers in the Union representing professionals at EPA headquarters, the President of the International Society of Doctors for the Environment, and hundreds of medical, dental, academic, scientific and environmental professionals, worldwide.
    You can easily get people to sign a petition that they believe in flying saucers, the Loch Ness monster, or that the official rules of the board game Monopoly state that you collect money when you land on “Free Parking” (the actual rules say you don’t). It proves absolutely nothing. When it comes to science, popular opinion doesn’t count.

    Researcher Doris Jones has unearthed startling new evidence demonstrating that fluoride interferes with enzyme systems, damaging many organ systems of the body

    http://www.healthy.net/scr/Article.asp?Id=4399
    Wait, not the Doris Jones? I’m sorry, I couldn’t resist. No offense to her or her family but she’s a “nobody", a self proclaimed “independent medical researcher” who speaks only for herself, has no doctoral degree in science, medicine, nutrition, chemistry, or any other field and merely has collected her own assortment of random studies and has drawn her own conclusions. Her only other published work is a similar article in a Yoga magazine. This poor woman, her son contracts M.E. so she decides to go on a life long mission to determine “why” and errantly concludes it must have been his fluoride treatment he had at the dentist. Sad.

    Harvard University Study Shows Fluoridation-Cancer Link, Reports NYSCOF
    http://www.biospace.com/news_story.a...EntityId=14804
    That Harvard “study” was actually the dissertation of a doctoral student, Elise Bassin, who was re-examining old data of a previous study that found no link in general, but her dissection of a specific group, young boys, a sub set of the original, showed statistical significance. The same aged girls found no connection. Some aspects of her study have been questioned by her own professor, and others:

    http://www.gasdetection.com/news2/he..._digest13.html

    More testing is underway, and still unpublished "better" data contradicts her findings, so says the Scientific American article. p80

    New York State Coalition Opposed to Fluoridation (NYSCOF)
    http://www.orgsites.com/ny/nyscof/
    They are quite similar to the other biased, single agenda fluoride smear campaigns. They use out of context quotes, none applicable data, sensationalize the issue, back up their claims with "references" which are often just blog entries at some other site, for all I know they’ve written themselves (e.g. “The FDA never approved fluoride ingestion”, go see), and rely on the lay public’s gullibility and lack of understanding regarding certain key issues, including the fact that some compounds like fluoride, vitamins A and D, and iron are all critical to human health in small quantities, but are toxic, poisonous, and even lethal in large amounts. Many of the animal studies these smear campaigners cite are using lab rats exposed to levels that are sometimes 20,000 times the level recommended for humans. These sites should be ashamed of themselves and just make me sick.
    Fluoridation Never Proven Safe or Effective & Possibly Unethical, Reports British Medical Journal
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Medical_Journal
    You provide no link to the article, just a wikipedia definition of the BMJ. Provide a true link (that I don’t have to pay for like I did the Scientific American article) and I’m sure I’ll have more to say. I have no interest in isolated “select quotes” from FAN or any similar biased group, by the way. They are always taken out of context and used to manipulate the original article’s meaning.

    Blood Lead Concentrations in Children and Method of Water Fluoridation in the United States, 1988–1994
    http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/art...?artid=1332668
    Um, did you even read their summation in the “abstract“ section? THEY FIND NO LINK! Here it is:

    "Given these findings, our analyses, though not definitive, do not support concerns that silicofluorides in community water systems cause higher PbB [blood lead] concentrations in children. Current evidence does not provide a basis for changing water fluoridation practices, which have a clear public health benefit.[emphasis mine]

    studies suggest that over-consumption of fluoride can raise the risks of disorders affecting teeth, bones, the brain and the thyroid gland
    http://www.fluoridenews.blogspot.com/
    Just a rehash through the biased eyes of an anti-fluoridationist of isolated points, often taken out of context, made in the Scientific American article; nothing new here. Everyone knows over-consumption of fluoride is bad. We’ve known that forever.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Find any medical institutions, schools, universities, or general public heath organizations (meaning they speak to a broad range of public health issues, not just a singular agenda of attacking fluoride) that as a unified, public body calls for an end to fluoridation, yet?

    [Sorry for the long post everyone, I never asked for the "laundry list".]

  6. #56

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    Default Re: Fluoride

    i've been drinking flouride all my life and i tunrde otu ko*.

    thanks for dropping the science Mahk.


    *disclaimer: the plural of anecdote is anecdotes, not data.

  7. #57
    cvC
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    Default Re: Fluoride

    Quote mn_nurse View Post
    You NEED fluoride
    In answer to this:

    Sodium fluoride is entirely different from organic calcium-fluoro-phosphate needed by our bodies and provided by nature, in God`s great providence and love, to build and strengthen our bones and our teeth. This organic calcium-fluoro-phosphate, derived from proper foods, is an edible organic salt, insoluble in water and assimilable by the human body, whereas the non-organic sodium fluoride used in fluoridating water is instant poison to the body and fully water soluble.
    http://www.rense.com/general79/hd3.htm

    Quote PainterLady View Post
    Fluoride is a toxic byproduct.
    Not only is it a toxic industrial waste, but this is from the introduction to an article about how it's also been a hazardous by-product in the millions of tons of the production of atomic weapons:

    # Much of the original proof that fluoride is safe for humans in low doses was generated by A-bomb program scientists who had been secretly ordered to provide "evidence useful in litigation" against defence contractors for fluoride injury to citizens. The first lawsuits against the American A-bomb program were not over radiation, but over fluoride damage, the documents show.
    # Human studies were required. Bomb program researchers played a leading role in the design and implementation of the most extensive US study of the health effects of fluoridating public drinking water, conducted in Newburgh, New York, from 1945 to 1955. Then, in a classified operation code-named "Program F", they secretly gathered and analysed blood and tissue samples from Newburgh citizens with the cooperation of New York State Health Department personnel.
    # The original, secret version (obtained by these reporters) of a study published by Program F scientists in the August 1948 Journal of the American Dental Association1 shows that evidence of adverse health effects from fluoride was censored by the US Atomic Energy Commission (AEC)-considered the most powerful of Cold War agencies-for reasons of "national security".
    This is from later in the article:

    The crucial question arising from the investigation is whether adverse health findings from Newburgh and other bomb-program fluoride studies were suppressed. All AEC-funded studies had to be declassified before publication in civilian medical and dental journals. Where are the original classified versions?

    The transcript of one of the major secret scientific conferences of World War II-on "fluoride metabolism"-is missing from the files of the US National Archives and is "probably still classified", according to the librarian. Participants in the January 1944 conference included key figures who promoted the safety of fluoride and water fluoridation to the public after the war: Harold Hodge of the Manhattan Project, David B. Ast of the Newburgh Demonstration Project, and US Public Health Service dentist H. Trendley Dean, popularly known as "the father of fluoridation".

    A WWII Manhattan Project c lassified report (25 July 1944) on water fluoridation is missing from the files of the University of Rochester Atomic Energy Project, the US National Archives, and the Nuclear Repository at the University of Tennessee, Knoxville. The next four numerically consecutive documents are also missing, while the remainder of the "M-1500 series" is present.

    "Either those documents are still classified, or they've been 'disappeared' by the government," said Clifford Honicker, Executive Director of the American Environmental Health Studies Project in Knoxville, Tennessee, which provided key evidence in the public exposure and prosecution of US human radiation experiments.

    Seven pages have been cut out of a 1947 Rochester bomb project notebook entitled "DuPont Litigation". "Most unusual," commented the medical school's chief archivist, Chris Hoolihan.

    Similarly, Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) requests lodged by these reporters over a year ago with the DOE for hundreds of classified fluoride reports have failed to dislodge any. "We're behind," explained Amy Rothrock, chief FOIA officer at Oak Ridge National Laboratories.
    http://www.nexusmagazine.com/articles/fluoridebomb.html

    Quote eve View Post
    Last week, our State Premier (of Queensland, Australia) announced that all tap water in Qld will be treated with fluoride 'for the sake of our children'. There had been some letters to the local press recently, but then this announcement out of the blue. And who wants to be mean to 'our children'?
    I was sad to read this news and hadn't realized that, as I've discovered, Brisbane is the only major Australian city where the public water supply isn't already fluoridated. There was recently the also dismal news of the government pushing to extend the practice in Britain as well and here's an answer to the "for the sake of our children" argument:

    Dr John Colquhoun, former Principal Dental Officer for Auckland, New Zealand changed his mind about fluoride when his worldwide study revealed that dental decay was “slightly better in children in non-f luo ridated areas” and fluoride caused more harm than good to children's teeth.
    http://www.i-sis.org.uk/NotoFluoridation.php

    Quote Mahk;395433This excellent article[/URL
    describes the typical techniques of FAN, and others, including solid medical references at the end.
    Some information that people might like to know about Stephen Barrett of "Quackwatch" and co-author of the linked article, in which those of us who argue against the putting into public water supplies of a highly toxic substance that's apparently used to kill rats are called poisonmongers:

    Barrett, himself, has been officially declared in a PUBLISHED Appeals Court decision to be "biased, and unworthy of credibility.
    http://www.rense.com/general62/wbs.htm

    Quote Mahk View Post
    Despite hundreds of parroting repetitions of this rumor by many anti-fluoridationists in blogs and forums, there’s no credible evidence to support this rumor about the Nazis and fluoridated water, but I think I’ve discovered the source of this myth. Best I can tell, a man Stephenson has a self published book on “mind control” that asserts a guy called Dickinson knows of a letter written in 1954 by one “Charles Elliot Perkins” [I can’t find any other evidence of his existence other than this urban legend] which claims in a visit to Germany shortly after the end of the war "he was told" the Nazis "had plans" to attempt mind control by introducing "something" into the water supply. All told, there’s zero evidence they ever actually did so. Here’s one account of what that 1954 “letter" supposedly said, bad spelling left intact:

    “The real purpose behind water fluoridation is to reduce the resistance of the masses to domination and control and loss of liberty...
    Wen the Nazis, under Hitler, decided to go into Poland... the German General Staff and the Russian General Staff exchanged scientific and military ideas, plans and personnel and the scheme of mass control through water medication was seized upon by the Russian Communists because it fitted ideally into their plan to Communize the world...
    I say this in all earnestness and sincerity of a scientist who has spent nearly 20 years research into the chemistry, bio-chemistry, physiology and pathology of fluorine: any person who drinks artificially fluorinated water for a period of one year or more will never again be the same person, mentally or physically."


    Source.
    The link below is to a fuller and also different version of the text of the letter that was apparently received by the Lee foundation for Nutritional Research in 1954 from Charles Perkins. He refers in it to having written a book about water fluoridation and which could presumably be disproved if untrue.

    http://www.rense.com/general79/hd3.htm

    You also refer to a "guy called Dickenson" and Harley Rivers Dickenson was apparently an Australian politician who made the statement I've quoted below in 1987. He refers in it to Mr Perkins as having gone to Germany after the Second World War on behalf of the U.S. Government and which the U.S. government hasn't denied as far as I know:

    "At the end of the Second World War, the United States Government sent Charles Eliot Perkins, a research worker in chemistry, biochemistry, physiology and pathology, to take charge of the vast Farben chemical plants in Germany.

    "While there he was told by the German chemists of a scheme which had been worked out by them during the war and adopted by the German General Staff.

    "This was to control the population in any given area through mass medication of drinking water. In this scheme, sodium fluoride occupied a prominent place.

    "Repeated doses of infinitesimal amounts of fluoride will in time reduce an individual's power to resist domination by slowly poisoning and narcotising a certain area of the brain and will thus make him submissive to the will of those who wish to govern him.

    "Both the Germans and the Russians added sodium fluoride to the drinking water of prisoners of war to make them stupid and docile."
    http://www.danreid.org/health-alerts...s-fluoride.htm

    There's also the following notarized statement that was apparently made by an Oliver Goff in 1957 and isn't the use of fluoride in anaesthetics and major tranquillisers testimony in itself of its sedative effect?

    "To whom it may concern: I, Oliver Kenneth Goff, was a member of the Communist Party and the Young Communist League from May 2, 1936 to October 9, 1939. During this period of time, I operated under the alias of John Keats and the number 18-B-2. My testimony before the Government is incorporated in Volume 9 of the Un-American Activities Report for the year 1939.

    "While a member of the Communist Party, I attended Communist underground training schools outside the City of New York in the Bues Hall and 113 East Wells Street, Milwaukee, Wisconsin. The East Wells Street School operated under the name of the Eugene Debs School. Here, under the tutoring of Eugene Dennis, M. Sparks, Morris Chyilds, Jack Kling and others, we were schooled in the art of revolutionary overthrow of the established Government.

    "We discussed quite thoroughly the fluoridation of water supplies and how we were using it in Russia as a tranquilizer in the prison camps. The leaders of our school felt that if it could be induced into the American water supply, it would bring about a spirit of lethargy in the nation; where it would keep the general public docile during a steady encroachment of Communism. We also discussed the fact that keeping a store of deadly fluoride near the water reservoir would be advantageous during the time of the revolution, as it would give us opportunity to dump this poison into the water supply and either kill off the populace or threaten them with liquidation, so that they would surrender to obtain fresh water.

    "We discussed in these schools, the complete art of revolution: the seizure of the main utilities, such as light, power, gas and water, but it was felt by the leadership that if a program of fluoridating the water could be carried out in the nation, it would go a long way toward the advancement of the revolution."
    http://www.newswithviews.com/Devvy/kidd102.htm

  8. #58
    AR Activist Roxy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fluoride

    I went to the dentist this past week. According to him, and my x-rays, because I have not used fluoride for the past 4 years, I now have 12 cavities in between my teeth

    Luckilly, these cavities have not yet eaten through the enamel of my teeth, and they are reversible. If I start using fluoride now, my teeth will re-mineralise and the cavities will reverse.

    As much as I regret having to go back and use fluoride, I also don't want a mouth full off rotting teeth, or alternatively have to have 12 teeth drilled.

  9. #59
    cvC
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    There are some pictures of dental fluorosis at this link, Roxy, and which from what I understand involves an attack on the enamel:

    http://www.fluoridealert.org/dental-fluorosis.htm

  10. #60
    AR Activist Roxy's Avatar
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    Thanks CVC. My teeth aren't anything like those kid's teeth, luckilly.

    I decided to stop using fluoride because of the possible risks involved. Unfortunately, it didn't work for me, and it actually had a negative effect. So back I go.

    I have to admit, I never had any problems with my teeth until I stopped using fluoride.

  11. #61
    Abe Froman Risker's Avatar
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    Today we're going to wrap our big juicy lips around the kitchen faucet, turn on the valve, and fill our bodies with a poisonous chemical placed in our water by the government: fluoride.

    Most people understand that fluoridation of water means that fluoride is added by the local municipal water supplier, and that's generally correct. What most people don't know is that in some cases, fluoridation means removing excess fluoride that occurs naturally in the water supply. Fluoride is a natural component of groundwater, and it occurs naturally everywhere in the world, in varying amounts. The process of fluoridation is to adjust the fluoride content of the water to the most healthful level.

    So how did fluoridation become a normal part of municipal water supply? It all goes back to an early 20th century dentist named Dr. Frederick McKay, who practiced dentistry in Colorado, and noticed that a lot of his patients seemed to have brown teeth. In Texas, brown teeth were so prevalent that they were simply called "Texas Teeth". Dr. McKay spent 30 years investigating the cause. Why? Because it also turned out that people with Texas Teeth also had extremely low levels of dental decay. If you had brown teeth, you were only 1/3 as likely to have cavities.

    Finally, in 1931, it was determined that naturally occurring fluoride in the local drinking water was responsible for both the discoloration and the lack of decay. Texas and Colorado had extremely high levels of natural fluoride, causing the discoloration, a condition now known as dental fluorosis, which is harmless if a tad unattractive. Years of research and testing in different cities and states, conducted by the National Health Service, determined that one part per million was the ideal proportion, giving the same protection from decay, and avoiding the dental fluorosis. Ever since then, it has been the standard practice to regulate fluoride levels in municipal water supplies to one part per million. There has been broad scientific and medical consensus for decades that one part per million of fluoride is best for health, and exactly zero rigorously conducted scientific trials that have indicated any sign of danger. For all practical purposes, it is an over-and-done-with issue.

    And yet, like so many advances in science or medicine, fluoridation is criticized by a small yet vocal fringe group. There is absolutely an anti-fluoridation lobby in this country. Their process is to flood the mass media with as many claims as they can invent: Claims like fluoridation causes cancer or other illnesses; that insufficient research has been done or that there is "scientific controversy" surrounding fluoridation; that fluoride is a dangerous chemical poison; that fluoridation has been banned in Europe; that it eliminates your freedom of choice; or any of a dozen other baseless and untrue statements intended to alarm and frighten the public. Alarming the public is not hard to do. There are many communities in the United States where voters have been compelled to ban fluoridation by this widespread misinformation campaign.

    Let's turn our eye onto one such community, Arcata, an idyllic coastal hamlet in northern California, that recently won this battle after a divisive and painful fight in the newspapers and in city hall. A principal champion of the science behind fluoridation is Kevin Hoover, editor of the Arcata Eye newspaper. In answering the flood of anti-fluoridation scare tactics, Hoover said:

    There are no known victims. If there was a problem with municipal fluoridation, wouldn't we have at least a few people who showed some signs of harm after 44 years? All the anti-fluoride people could say was that the victims are "undiagnosed," but not why. They produced no victims, just lots of dubious statistics and horror stories with no provenance.

    Measure W to ban fluoridation was carefully crafted by the anti-fluoridation lobby to simply require FDA approval of anything added to Arcata's water supply, which sounds reasonable and sounds like a good idea, and a layperson otherwise uninformed would be likely to vote for it. The catch is that the Food & Drug Administration has nothing whatsoever to do with municipal water supplies, and so of course FDA approval would never happen, by law. Measure W was essentially a devious, deceitful trick intended to further the anti-fluoridation lobby's agenda at the expense of the dental health of Arcata's children. Generally, it's this same tactic that has been responsible for most anti-fluoridation measures that have passed in the United States.

    How else does the anti-fluoridation lobby go about spreading their misinformation? Generally they distribute an eight page pamphlet written by Dr. John Yiamouyiannis, the grandfather of anti-fluoridation activism. Dr. Yiamouyiannis was a naturopath who rejected modern medicine, and was the principal originator of the claim that fluoridation causes cancer. He raised his family with an emphasis on a fluoride-free diet to avoid cancer. And, as I'm sure you've guessed, Dr. Yiamouyiannis died of cancer in 2000, which he had refused to treat in accordance with his naturopathic philosophy. His type of cancer has a 95% 5-year survival rate, when properly treated.

    Most other experts cited by activists are people like Dr. Hugo Theorell, who did indeed oppose fluoridation in the early days. What they don't tell you is that Dr. Theorell changed his mind and became a supporter after the research was published. They'll often cite Swedish Nobel Prize winner Arvid Carlsson, known for his work with dopamine. He's the only known Nobel Prize winner to oppose fluoridation, but the activists multiply him and frequently say that "dozens" or "many" Nobel Prize winners oppose it. When you can only find one guy who opposes something, and his work is in a completely different field anyway, that's a pretty sad commentary on your position. It's also a case of the exception proving the rule. There are always a few contrarian scientists in every field with opinions opposite from the consensus.

    It's also stated that fluoridation adds dangerous levels of lead, arsenic, and mercury to the water. Again, this is simply untrue, and making such a claim is really a form of terrorism. In Arcata, no detectable levels of any of those are found in the fluoridated water. Not just below safe levels, mind you; zero.

    You'll also hear the claim that fluoridation has been banned in Europe. This is also completely untrue. In Europe it's more common to fluoridate salt instead of water, thus bringing the same benefits via a different delivery method. As long as you don't look at that fact, the anti-fluoridation people can truthfully say that "Europe rejects fluoridation of water."

    Thanks to the efforts of Hoover and all of Arcata's doctors, dentists, educators, social workers and newspapers, Measure W to ban fluoridation was soundly defeated in the election. And it's a good thing, too: according to sources in Arcata, if Measure W had passed, the same people were going to try and ban childhood vaccinations next.

    Why do they do it? We can really only speculate. Presumably most of these people are good citizens who love their families and want the best for everyone. I speculate that a lot of them are simply ignorant of the facts, and possibly mistrust of the government or anticorporatism compels them to tend to ignore information from official sources and embrace alternative claims, whatever their source. Hoover gave his own answer to this question in an editorial for the Arcata Eye:

    Billion-dollar industries thrive around entirely imaginary “phenomena.” Astrology, numerology, UFOs, alien abductions, Holocaust denial, the face on Mars, “chemtrails,” innumerable media-centered conspiracy theories and fluoride-phobia thrive because they inhabit that magical nexus where paranoia meets superstition – fertile ground for fomenting fear.

    The United States Public Health Service estimates that every dollar spent fluoridating water saves fifty dollars in dental expenses. If fluoridation is truly just another conspiracy, then at least this is one that saves money.
    http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4058

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    Default Re: Fluoride

    ya know, if you want to make a strong case you might want to use credible sources with maybe a shred of science before you start parroting conspiracy ufo bigfoot websites . I do think fluoride being added to something as common and necessary as drinking water is at best presumptuous by our government but the the claims from these sites are completely off the charts. I hope people reading this thread understand the scope of pseudoscience and conspiracy paranoia the pervades the internet and seeks to find sources based on science when forming their opinion.

  13. #63
    cvC
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    Quote dandelion View Post
    ya know, if you want to make a strong case you might want to use credible sources with maybe a shred of science before you start parroting conspiracy ufo bigfoot websites .
    Is this source credible enough for you, dandelion?

    "Fluoridation ... it is the greatest fraud that has ever been perpetrated and it has been perpetrated on more people than any other fraud has."Professor Albert Schatz, Ph.D. (Microbiology), Discoverer of streptomycin and Nobel Prize Winner
    http://www.shirleys-wellness-cafe.com/fluoride.htm

    Quote dandelion View Post
    the claims from these sites are completely off the charts.
    Which ones? Would you mind referring to one or more of the specific claims about fluoride that you're impugning and so that I can attempt to rebut it?

  14. #64
    Abe Froman Risker's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fluoride

    Shirleys wellness cafe? I see it features our "trusted" friend Dr. Mercola who has been discussed many times on this forum and is a totally unreliable source of any scientific information.

  15. #65
    Russ
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    Did you guys know the moon landings were faked?

  16. #66
    cvC
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    Quote Russ View Post
    Did you guys know the moon landings were faked?
    Here's a video you might enjoy, Russ, and which I think is only meant as a bit of fun:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mouUUWpEec0

    I remember once seeing that Channel 5 were going to show a documentary about the moon landings being a hoax and dismissing the idea. I was nevertheless watching television when it was on and, with nothing much else on that interested me, found myself switching over to it. It's not something that I know much about or am hugely interested in, but remember stuff like objects appearing to have two shadows, suggestive of studio lighting, and have seen something more recently that asks why there are no stars in the black sky in the photo's of the astranauts. There has been a response to questions such as these, but I have been persuaded that there might indeed be a case for the moon landings having been a hoax. I haven't been able to find the Channel 5 documentary on the internet, but here's one that was apparently shown on Fox television and which, although I've only watched the beginning, think might be essentially the same one:

    http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...35117048624484

    The video lasts just over forty-four minutes and here's one I found while looking for it that lasts just a few minutes and purports to show wires supporting the astranauts glinting in the light:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wdMvQTNLaUE

  17. #67
    Russ
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    Default Re: Fluoride


  18. #68
    Mahk
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    An interesting bit of trivia: Did you know the word "gullible" is not in the dictionary?

  19. #69
    cvC
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    Quote Mahk View Post
    An interesting bit of trivia: Did you know the word "gullible" is not in the dictionary?
    I've just looked in mine and it is actually.

  20. #70
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    Quote Mahk View Post
    An interesting bit of trivia: Did you know the word "gullible" is not in the dictionary?
    You will find 'gull', then further down in the same paragraph, there are extensions of that word, including gullible.
    Eve

  21. #71
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    Quote Mahk View Post
    An interesting bit of trivia: Did you know the word "gullible" is not in the dictionary?
    LOLOLOLOL
    Peace, love, and happiness.

  22. #72
    Mahk
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    Let's see what silliness we've covered so far:

    - a connection to the Nazis
    - a Communist trick to induce mind control
    - a toxic poison from the atomic bomb industry

    I thought to myself, "So what's left?" It dawned on me that we haven't heard from the alien abduction/UFO crowd yet so I googled the words fluoride and alien and this was the second entry.

    If you read more at the parent site you'll see this person is dead serious. Apparently the original aliens were not smart enough to dump their toxic waste into the vastness of outer space as they traveled to Earth. What morons.

    Remember folks, if you read it on the internet, it must be true!

  23. #73
    steven1222
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    Quote Risker View Post
    Shirleys wellness cafe? I see it features our "trusted" friend Dr. Mercola who has been discussed many times on this forum and is a totally unreliable source of any scientific information.
    I once read a few articles from that "Shirley" and looked at her web site and she sounded like a quack of the Mercola type; I am not surprised that she supports him. Her claim that flouridation is a fraud is meaningless. Even if it is a fraud, that alone does not make it harmful.

    Quote Mahk
    Let's see what silliness we've covered so far:

    - a connection to the Nazis
    - a Communist trick to induce mind control
    - a toxic poison from the atomic bomb industry

    I thought to myself, "So what's left?" It dawned on me that we haven't heard from the alien abduction/UFO crowd yet so I googled the words fluoride and alien and this was the second entry.
    I do not think it is appropriate to dismiss those three concerns as equivalent to alien abduction/UFO nonsense, simply because of biased studies supporting fluoride, or because of their sources. I am not saying that fluoridation is or is not harmful, but there are no known benefits from ingestion of fluoride, so why accept the risks? Flouridation of public drinking water denies people the right to cheap water that lacks added fluoride.

    With that having been said, I do believe that flouride can help the teeth, so I use a fluoride-containing toothpaste.

  24. #74
    ♥♥♥ Tigerlily's Avatar
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    I was using fluoride-free toothpaste for a year and half (maybe more) and my teeth started chipping. I never had chipped teeth before and I wasn't doing anything out of the ordinary with my teeth. I went back to fluoride toothpaste (found Dr Ken's brand which doesn't test and is vegan) and my teeth have not chipped in past 6 months and they look whiter too.
    Peace, love, and happiness.

  25. #75
    AR Activist Roxy's Avatar
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    Quote Tigerlily View Post
    I wasn't doing anything out of the ordinary with my teeth.
    That's not what I heard

    Seriously though, I didn't have any problems with my teeth either until I stopped using fluoride. I think you're lucky to have gone back to using it after only one and a half years. I didn't use it for like 4 years, and my teeth have really sufferred. Luckilly at this stage, it looks like the cavities are reversible though.

  26. #76
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    I've never used flouride in my life. My mom always used flouride-free toothpastes because of the risk. I never had any cavities as a kid, and only got them when I was a teenager and decided that flossing was too much work. Really, any cavity is reversible. My mom has reversed cavities when the dentist has said they were beyond repair and needed fillings. She goes 6 months without any sugar, and takes care of her teeth, and takes cal/mag/d/phos and then the x-rays show no cavities.

    Now, I just forgo dentists and hope my teeth don't all fall out. I figure I can do what my mother did, except I'm too lazy. I never even brush my teeth. *smiles to show the cockroaches crawl around my teeth* Oh well, no problems yet. Actually, I used to have pain when I ate sweet things, but 2 years of no dentist & no real tooth care, and that doesn't happen anymore.

    I've started flossing occasionally, and I practically never have sugar. I also put colloidal silver on old cavities, and they haven't gotten any worse. I figure, if I loose a couple teeth, that'll just ensure I don't get them impacted when my wisdom teeth come in, because I can't afford to do anything about those either.

    Actually, chipped teeth have nothing to do with flouride. Flouride is basically a bacteria fighter the way it prevents cavities. It has no bearing on the enamel or strength of teeth.

  27. #77
    steven1222
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    Quote snivelingchild View Post
    Actually, chipped teeth have nothing to do with flouride. Flouride is basically a bacteria fighter the way it prevents cavities. It has no bearing on the enamel or strength of teeth.
    That might not be entirely true. I have heard (and I think someone mentioned in this thread) that fluoride can take the place of calcium that has, for whatever reason, been lost from the teeth without being replaced.

  28. #78

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    Quote cvC View Post
    I've just looked in mine and it is actually.
    PWNED

  29. #79
    Mahk
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    Quote snivelingchild View Post
    Now, I just forgo dentists and hope my teeth don't all fall out. I figure I can do what my mother did, except I'm too lazy. I never even brush my teeth.
    I figure, if I loose a couple teeth, that'll just ensure I don't get them impacted when my wisdom teeth come in, because I can't afford to do anything about those either.
    I mean no offense Sniv, but this sort of lifestyle is exactly why public water fluoridation is a good idea and in the best interest of our nation's public health, in my opinion. Overwhelming evidence shows that fluoride toothpaste and optimal fluoridation levels in our public drinking water significantly reduces (but does not eliminate) our risk of tooth decay ("dental caries", aka cavities). I'm sorry I must seem like I'm lecturing, but at the very least we all should brush our teeth daily. Even if one has an attitude of "Oh well, some of my teeth might fall out, I don't care" we still should be brushing for our heart's health. Learn why here.

    [Sorry, everyone, I couldn't find a source for this heart health information that wasn't also from part of the worldwide scientific/medical/dental propaganda mill being controlled by the Nazi/Communist/space alien syndicate that some are worried about (which endorses water fluoridation for mind control purposes, apparently). You'll all have to just think for yourselves as to whether you think this info is factual, or has some other (sinister) ulterior motive.]

  30. #80
    ♥♥♥ Tigerlily's Avatar
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    Quote Roxy View Post
    That's not what I heard

    Seriously though, I didn't have any problems with my teeth either until I stopped using fluoride. I think you're lucky to have gone back to using it after only one and a half years. I didn't use it for like 4 years, and my teeth have really sufferred. Luckilly at this stage, it looks like the cavities are reversible though.
    lol.

    My dentist actually asked me what I was doing to my teeth once!
    Peace, love, and happiness.

  31. #81
    steven1222
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    Quote Mahk View Post
    public water fluoridation is a good idea and in the best interest of our nation's public health, in my opinion.
    It is unethical to force fluoridated water into the mouths of fluoridation opponents who are unable to afford alternatives. There is a big similarity between fluoridated water and GMOs: Both are being forced on an ignorant and apathetic public population, with unknown and potentially devastating consequences.

  32. #82
    Mahk
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    Quote steven1222 View Post
    It is unethical to force fluoridated water into the mouths of fluoridation opponents who are unable to afford alternatives.
    It is unethical to deny fluoridated water to the mouths of educated people who know fluoridated water is safe, inexpensive, and effective in reducing tooth decay but are unable to afford even a single dental filling or tooth extraction. Untreated tooth decay (what the US Surgeon General refers to as America's "silent epidemic") is a very real problem for millions of Americans unlike the fluoride induced "mind control" delusions of the paranoid anti-fluoridationist crowd.

    Take poor 12 year-old Deamonte Driver from last year, for example. Like millions of other Americans today, his parents were unable to afford an $80 tooth extraction of his rotting tooth, so instead he was forced to endure a painful toothache for weeks on end until the infection eventually spread to his brain and he died. The cost to fluoridate his water, paid for by taxpayers money, would have cost less than $1 for an entire year. [Yes, I realize it wouldn't have guaranteed a total lack of cavities, but it certainly helps] How many have died from drinking (government regulated) fluoridated water since its introduction in 1945? ZERO! Number of test subjects? Billions! (roughly 200,000,000 people in the US, today alone, drank fluoridated water, for example)

    Tell me, are you also opposed to the typical inclusion of Vitamin D in both regular and soy milk and iodine to table salt? People could get those in other forms as well so why force it on the delusional crowd that thinks since iodine is a "poison" that it must be some kind of government trick.

    There is a big similarity between fluoridated water and GMOs: Both are being forced on an ignorant and apathetic public population, with unknown and potentially devastating consequences.
    Not on me. I consider myself very well educated on the subject of water fluoridation and I'm very glad the water I drink has it. Every time I have a sip of water, coffee, tea, reconstituted OJ, lemon water, etc I'm getting a little dental treatment. As for these "potentially devastating consequences", we've been studying fluoride's effect on human health continually now, in hundreds of studies for over a half century and fed it to billions of citizens yet not found any, so how long do you think would be a safe enough time to conclude that it is indeed safe?

  33. #83
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    Quote Mahk View Post
    It is unethical to deny fluoridated water to the mouths of educated people who know fluoridated water is safe, inexpensive, and effective in reducing tooth decay but are unable to afford even a single dental filling or tooth extraction.
    If people can't afford flouridated toothpaste, then they have more problems than their teeth. You care about mouth health for the poor, root for more programs that teach elementary school children good habits, educate them, and give them tooth supplies. Crest currently does this.

    It's like being forced to have your crops sprayed with pesticides to prevent plant diseases spread by insects.

    Flouride IS GOOD for teeth, but NOT GOOD for the rest of your body. That's why dentists put it directly on your teeth, and have you spit. This is why it's bad to swallow toothpaste. This is why it's BAD in water.

    Putting it in water is denying people the right to PURE water.

    I didn't really post my tooth habits up for your consideration. It was more just me rambling, because it's really none of your business (I have a fault of speaking for conversation tone's sake, and not for actual content; sometimes I find actual points are the least important of much speech). Sense you seemed to think it was the most important part of my post, let me expand:

    Yes, I don't have the best habits. I don't shower everyday because I feel hygene is on a time schedule, I shower when I need it. I also brush my teeth when I have plaque, and floss when there is plaque between my teeth. I don't use toothpaste at all. It doesn't seem natural to me. When I eat raw, healthy foods in their natural state, my teeth develop REMARKABLY reduces plaque, and most times, my regular drinking of water removes 90% of the excess plaque. If you think my teeth are cleaner/dirtier than I feel, good for you, but I really could care less about people who think they know better for me.

    What I mentioned about my teeth falling out, meant that my last mollars (before my wisdom teeth) are actually the only ones with cavaties, and have had cavities for years. I cannot afford to get my wisdom teeth out, not in the next ten years either. If I'm lucky, I can get a low cost clinic to extract molars whose roots are disolved, which can be done without surgery. I cannot get a clinic to take out my wisdom teeth.

    And actually, the last few years, many of my cavities have healed up more with good nutrition, and brushing combimed with water in my mouth. If I want to take more control of my oral health, I have confidence that I could reasolve my issues, but when a person does not have the money to see a dentist about problems, sometimes the only way to not get HORRIBLY DEPRESSED about those problems is to partially or completely ignore them.

    I also disagree with most people's definition of safe. Things that taken in normal doses for years, that do not cause entire diseases on their own, are considered safe. In reality, all these things have negative effects, that are very small. Many small things add up. I could care less what you want to put in your body, but I get the right to say what is right for mine. I want nothing in my body that is known to be harmful in any amount, unless it is something necessary for good health that I cannot achieve good health without. I don't always stick to this. I eat cooked foods, and very occasionally have sugar, but that doesn't mean I'm not trying everyday to be the healthiest me I can, and happy too. That's why I don't drink, smoke, consume caffeine, consume refined grains, eat non-organic produce, and a number of other things.

    Don't think my negative reaction to your post is anything personal, or in reaction to your opinion of flouride on the body. It is because you feel it is right for these choices to be pushed on other people, and the fact that my cat might die. That may have nothing to do with this, but by god just let me not have to predend to be polite for once. I'm just being honest that my reaction is not entirely for you, but that doesn't make my thoughts any less valid.

  34. #84
    snivelingchild's Avatar
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    Quote Mahk View Post
    coffee, tea, reconstituted OJ[...] etc I'm getting a little dental treatment
    Um, you DO realize how bad these three things are on your teeth, right?
    All three are acidic to the point that enamel is affected, and the first contains a chemical which makes the body very acidic, causing it to leech calcium for many sources, including teeth.

  35. #85
    cvC
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    Quote steven1222 View Post
    I have heard (and I think someone mentioned in this thread) that fluoride can take the place of calcium that has, for whatever reason, been lost from the teeth without being replaced.
    Did you also see this quotation from a nephew of Einstein called Dr. Bronner earlier in the thread?

    Sodium fluoride is entirely different from organic calcium-fluoro-phosphate needed by our bodies and provided by nature, in God`s great providence and love, to build and strengthen our bones and our teeth. This organic calcium-fluoro-phosphate, derived from proper foods, is an edible organic salt, insoluble in water and assimilable by the human body, whereas the non-organic sodium fluoride used in fluoridating water is instant poison to the body and fully water soluble.
    http://www.rense.com/general79/hd3.htm

    Quote Mahk View Post
    Overwhelming evidence shows that fluoride toothpaste and optimal fluoridation levels in our public drinking water significantly reduces (but does not eliminate) our risk of tooth decay
    What evidence exactly? I've been having a look at the Fluoride Action Network's "50 Reasons to Oppose Fluoridation" and where, at 38, there is the description of the early fluoridation studies by a statistician from the University of California as "especially rich in fallacies, improper design, invalid use of statistical methods, omissions of contrary data, and just plain muddleheadedness and hebetude."

    Here are some more quotations that further contradict your claim:

    Most Western European countries are not fluoridated and have experienced the same decline in dental decay as the US
    The largest survey ever conducted in the US (over 39,000 children from 84 communities) by the National Institute of Dental Research showed little difference in tooth decay among children in fluoridated and non-fluoridated communities
    Where fluoridation has been discontinued in communities from Canada, the former East Germany, Cuba and Finland, dental decay has not increased but has actually decreased
    http://www.fluoridealert.org/50-reasons.htm

    (For those interested and according to a definition I found online, "hebetude" means "dullness of mind; mental lethargy".)

  36. #86
    AR Activist Roxy's Avatar
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    As much as I agree with using fluoride for my personal circumstances, I don't believe anyone should be forced to consume fluoride if they don't want it.

    By putting fluoride into public drinking water, the government is basically forcing people to drink fluoride. Sure, we could say "don't drink the water if you don't want the fluoride".....but water is a basic human right that everyone is entitled to and IMO, it shouldn't have unnecessary additives such as fluoride.

  37. #87
    Mahk
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    Quote snivelingchild View Post
    Um, you DO realize how bad these three things are on your teeth, right?
    Sorry, Sniv, if you think I was being judgmental regarding your brushing habits. I didn't mean to be. Since you posted about them with some detail I figured it was fair to comment on them just like you've commented here on my common but risky drink choices. I don't consider that off base at all.

    I agree with you sweet and acidic drinks are bad for the teeth. Also coffee, soy sauce, blueberries, espresso, cola and other dark liquids have a tendency to stain the teeth; but this is purely cosmetic. The cavity causing actions of the sweet and acidic drinks/foods are more the ones to worry about regarding cavities which can then lead to heart problems, in my opinion.

    Since you wish your water to be 100% pure I take it you are also upset that chlorine has been added to your drinking water as well. Keep in mind chlorine gas was used by the Germans in WWI as a form of deadly chemical warfare, extremely toxic nasty stuff, but unlike the Nazi/Fluoride myth that was already mentioned earlier in the thread, this one is true.

    Even if you don't oppose chlorine being added to your water, since there are some people who oppose this does this mean it shouldn't be done because their paranoid fears outweigh the general public's health? To me this is analogous to fluoride being added to our water. The paranoia of an unscientific, loud, sensationalizing* minority does not have a right to jeopardize the general public's health.

    * "Lions, tigers, and bears. Oh my!"
    "Nazis, Commies, and A-bombs. Oh my!"

  38. #88
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    Default Re: Fluoride

    Yes, due to bad mood, I was brash, rude, hypocritical, and babbling. With my second post, I was straight up being bitchy. I appologise, as I don't think it's acceptable at all. I explained my reason for being a bitch in the post. I regretted my post after doing it, but I'm not going to try and lie and pretend I didn't say it, or that I didn't want to say it.

    I hate chlorine being in drinking water even more than flouride. Chlorine is unnecessary if water if filtrated properly. Actually, my vet told me today that the local waters (since this area's water is LOADED with chlorine, much more than most places) could even be contributing to some ill health of my pets, and recommended giving them filtered. I don't think that wanting filtered water is paranoid, nor would it be harming people if the water supply was imporved with better means of cleaning water, which wouldn't include chlorine.

    Let me just summarize my thoughts by saying this: Water should be water. Everyone should have access to water. It is simple, it is natural, and yes some things should just stay natural. Flouride is not NECESSARY for human health. Healthy oral hygiene can be accomplished through removal of plaque (by any method suitable for the amount of plaque, which is the source of the bacteria) and can be further prevented by any sort of anti-bacterial material, such as silver or tea tree oil. I use colloidal silver. Flouride does not actually cure or treat the CAUSE of cavities, but simply strenthens the enamel so it's harder for bacteria to eat through. Removing the bacteria is true prevention.

    Sense it is not necessary, and flouride is readily available in most tooth products, and you can get flouride toothpaste for $0.50 at dollar general, why should it be put into water. So that people who choose not to take care of their teeth should reap the benefits. Why force them to have something they don't want. If you want more people to actively want good hygiene practices, root for better education on the subject. Why should anything be forced on anyone, even if it's 'good'?

    I also disagree that something is safe because we have not proven it unsafe. Like I said before, something is usually considered safe if we cannot see that it causes a disease at normal levels. Aspartame, and many other things have been proven safe. But they should not be put into the public water supply.

    "Nazis, commies, and a-bomb. Oh my!" is really unnecesary and insulting. Mocking those who think differently than you, no matter how ridiculous it may be, is below you, at least what I see in the majority of your other posts on this forum.

  39. #89
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    Default Re: Fluoride

    Quote Mahk View Post
    Also coffee, soy sauce, blueberries, espresso, cola and other dark liquids have a tendency to stain the teeth; but this is purely cosmetic. The cavity causing actions of the sweet and acidic drinks/foods are more the ones to worry about regarding cavities which can then lead to heart problems, in my opinion.
    I'm confused. Did someone mention this, or was this simply an aside? I was referring to the cavity causing effects of acidic drinks, which include coffee, tea, and OJ. I'm not trying to bring up the habits in relation to you again, I'm just confused by your language, and what you thought I meant.

  40. #90
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    Default Re: Fluoride

    I don't drink our tap water and one of the reasons is because of how much it stinks like chlorine. I imagine it tastes like pool water from the way it smells Also, the water that comes out of the shower has been known to turn the ends of my blonde hair a lovely shade of green, indicating there is a lot of chlorine in the water.

    Can't they santise the water with something else? That's probably for another thread though - as I don't want to take this one too far off topic.

  41. #91
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    Default Re: Fluoride

    Quote snivelingchild View Post
    "Nazis, commies, and a-bomb. Oh my!" is really unnecesary and insulting. Mocking those who think differently than you, no matter how ridiculous it may be, is below you, at least what I see in the majority of your other posts on this forum.
    My bad. I was rambling about the thread in general and numerous anti-fluoridation sites I've had to read over the past weeks. I guess I wasn't very clear on that, sorry. It had absolutely nothing to do with you at all. All three topics; Nazis, Communists, and A-bombs were brought up as arguments against water fluoridation in this recent post, for example, as well as many other anti-fluoridation sites I've had to examine. The asterisk that I placed after the word "sensationalizing" that leads to the "lions tigers and bears! Oh my!" part was meant as a clarification to what I meant exactly by how at least part of anti-fluoridation crowd "sensationalizes" their argument.

    Part II addressing your second post:

    Yes, completely an aside. I figured this wasn't too off topic since we were talking about drinks that are bad for ones teeth in some way. Just a little tid bit I picked up I thought I'd pass along to everyone. Here's another: Don't buy toothpaste at dollar stores made in China, even from a brand you may trust such as Crest or Colgate. Some contain bad chemicals we consider dangerous here in our countries. I'll re-find my link if anyone requests it.

  42. #92
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    Default Re: Fluoride

    Ah. Understood.

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    Default Re: Fluoride

    Quote cvC View Post
    Is this source credible enough for you, dandelion?
    http://www.shirleys-wellness-cafe.com/fluoride.htm
    heh yes that seems like a much better source thanks. (even though it's hosted on a dubious site.)

  44. #94
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    Quote cvC View Post
    Is this source credible enough for you, dandelion?

    http://www.shirleys-wellness-cafe.com/fluoride.htm
    Although Shirley has no degrees in any fields of science, medicine, or dentistry, she does know the cure for cancer, heart disease, allergies, auto-immune diseases, diabetes, asthma, infertility, infections, and many other ailments:

    Drinking urine!

    [Probably a good cavity reducing mouthwash as well, considering its basic Ph (opposite of acid), but I don't think she mentions that.]

    I'd also like to add how thoughtful it was for her to provide direct links to Amazon.com in order to purchase all the numerous books she discusses, providing her with a small kickback each time a reader clicks on one of the photos of the books. Wasn't that nice of her?

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    Default Re: Fluoride

    i believe Albert Schatz's study was the source being referred to and it was just hosted by Shirley. Surely () referral links are a valid form of web monetization. Charlatans gotta eat too.
    Quote Mahk View Post
    Although Shirley has no degrees in any fields of science, medicine, or dentistry, she does know the cure for cancer, heart disease, allergies, auto-immune diseases, diabetes, asthma, infertility, infections, and many other ailments:

    Drinking urine!

    [Probably a good cavity reducing mouthwash as well, considering its basic Ph (opposite of acid), but I don't think she mentions that.]

    I'd also like to add how thoughtful it was for her to provide direct links to Amazon.com in order to purchase all the numerous books she discusses, providing her with a small kickback each time a reader clicks on one of the photos of the books. Wasn't that nice of her?

  46. #96
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    Default Re: Fluoride

    [YOUTUBE]JqMmoQgnXnA[/YOUTUBE]
    I will not eat anything that walks, swims, flies, runs, skips, hops or crawls.

  47. #97
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    Default Re: Fluoride

    [YOUTUBE]AvExFr5J9BI[/YOUTUBE]
    I will not eat anything that walks, swims, flies, runs, skips, hops or crawls.

  48. #98
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    Default Re: Fluoride

    Fluoride creates severe vitamin deficiencies

    As many of the surveys on Earth Clinic are quick to point out, fibromyalgia and its related conditions are known to be associated with a number of significant vitamin and mineral deficiencies. These so-called deficiencies include: antioxidants, vitamin B12, vitamin D, magnesium, and iodine. As fluoride dramatically slows down cellular energy production throughout the body, the cells of the body require more & more nutrients to perform the same function. In this way, fluoride literally creates a host of severe deficiencies, which might otherwise seem like an absurd demand of nutrients.
    I will not eat anything that walks, swims, flies, runs, skips, hops or crawls.

  49. #99
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    Default Re: Fluoride

    Where I live, in Queensland, fluoridation of water begins on 1 Dec. Seems there was only one announcement in one newspaper on one day (a newspaper that I don't buy). Yet the local councils offer free fluoride tablets to any parents for their children, or for adults themselves, so why do they need to do that? Moreover there is talk of sewage being put through filters to provide drinking water! What about all the chemicals that people ingest and goes into the sewage system. Makes me so annoyed.
    Eve

  50. #100
    Mahk
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    Default Re: Fluoride

    Fluoride Action Network, aka FAN, who produced both of the Youtube videos is not a dental organization and not a medical organization but rather a clever group of scaremongers with a singular objective; smear fluoride. By presenting numerous half truths and factoids taken out of context they have successfully scared millions of people, even scientists, politicians and some doctors/dentists into thinking there is a significant segment of the dental and medical community who think fluoridation programs through water (or salt) distribution is dangerous. That is a lie. By presenting only these individuals in these videos they mislead the viewer to think they are representative of large groups of dentists and doctors. Not true. Here are just a few of the tricks I've actually seen them use:

    KEY TO TEXT COLOR:
    First the quote [paraphrased] taken out of context in red used alone as a scare tactic by the "fluoriphobes"
    and then the full statement in green which shows the author's true meaning.

    "As the head of the dental department of a major university I'm calling for the immediate cessation of all water fluoridation in our country. Too high concentrations of fluoride in the diet and water can cause fluorosis of the teeth and bone, especially in children, a mild cosmetic discoloration which has no ill effect on the tooth/bone health in the concentrations we use in water by itself, but it's easily avoidable in those who additionally consume fluoridated foods and water if we instead convert to fluoridated salt distribution like all our neighboring countries are doing. Fluoridating both our water and salt is too much so we should use just the method our neighbors are using so as to not worry about too high a consumption in people who already drink our fluoridated water and eat a lot of imported, adjacent-country-produced prepared foods. They are the ones we will be helping. "

    "As a leading two time Nobel laureate in physics and biomedical science, I oppose the fluoridation of my country's water supply. Instead, regular visits to the dentist to address dental carries (tooth decay, aka cavities) should be funded by the state. This will also give the dentists an opportunity to screen for other potentially dangerous oral lesions which can lead to cancer. Also, fluoride is indeed safe and effective in reducing the incidence of cavities but it doesn't eliminate them 100%. I worry people, especially the poor, will mistakenly think getting cavities is impossible if they use fluoridated water and therefor not visit their dentists regularly due to cost. Un-addressed dental carries can and does lead to death."

    "As a top leading scientist I have done much research on how fluoride can contribute to bone cancer and have no doubt in my mind that the link is causal. Of course I'm not talking about the concentrations which I'm thankful my children's water is fluoridated with, mind you, roughly 1 part per million (ppm), but rather 100,000 times that concentration or 100,000 ppm. Such concentrations of common table salt, caffeine, aspirin, and iodine (a necessary nutrient) also show signs of cancer and possible birth defects in similar studies. Many, many compounds like fluoride, iodine, and Vitamin D are all poisonous/toxic in high concentrations, yet necessary to good health or even life in lower concentrations."

    "As the president of a major nation, top leading scientist, two time Oscar winning actor, publisher of a conservation magazine, and a very handsome man people will trust [], I oppose the fluoridation of our nation's water supply because there was an accidental spill of highly concentrated fluoride in a lake once and some marine life was hurt. I also think we should stop the use of crude oil and of course its derivatives, gasoline and plastic, for exactly the same reason."

    "As the world's foremost authority on nutrition I think we should stop any efforts to fluoridate our nation's water or salt supply. We also should ban the fortification of nutritional yeast with Vitamin B12, soy milk with calcium and Vitamin D, and salt with iodine. Although these are all healthy ways of ingesting these important compounds, I am opposed to the government allowing any fortification of any foods despite the thousands or millions who will suffer accordingly. If people want more calcium, iodine, etc. let them take a pill. I don't care if 99% of the general public [vegan or otherwise] is unaware what foods contain the necessary nutrient iodine, it's their problem not the government's. Car safety belts and motorcycle crash helmet use also should not be mandatory in my view. I never said I think these things aren't safe or don't work, I just don't like the state having any control over our life/safety....And that's why I'll gladly add my name to the 1700 other petition signers calling for a stop to fluoridation."

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