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Thread: Animals killed in plant fields

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    Pascale's Avatar
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    Default Animals killed in plant fields

    I was on a different message board having a disagreement with this other person. He was condemning the vegan/vegetarian diet because animals are killed to harvest food, particularly "pest" animals, like deer, get shot so they don't eat the crops. What do you guys think about this? I figure that a person can only do a certain amount to help, but it is an issue.

  2. #2
    vegan pizza! thecatspajamas1's Avatar
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    Default Re: Animals killed in plant fields

    Even if this happens, you are using less crops than a meateater because it takes more crops to feed the animals first. (10 times more grain to make a pound of beef compared to just eating the pound of grain directly!) So a vegan is not contributing to the problem as much as a meateater is, even though their diet is plant based.

    To contribute even less to this problem, one could grow their own vegetables, or only buy from local farms where they can find out whether or not this happens.
    I eat nutritional yeast by the spoonful.

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    Default Re: Animals killed in plant fields

    Quote Pascale View Post
    He was condemning the vegan/vegetarian diet because animals are killed to harvest food
    The classical answer to that classical question is what pajamas wrote.

    But there's another interesting question in there too: He must be against killing animals then - since he condemns a diet because it means killing animals? And if he does, what would he eat if not eating a vegan/vegetarian diet? Would he eat a meat-based diet as a result of being against killing animals?

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    Default Re: Animals killed in plant fields

    I'm with Sarah and Korn. But it always comes back to the same point: animals raised for meat eat grain, so even if he ate a solely meat-based diet he would still be an "accessory" to the killing he describes. Perhaps he lives on fresh air, thus he feels free enough from sin to cast the first stone?

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    Abe Froman Risker's Avatar
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    Default Re: Animals killed in plant fields

    I can't be held to account for the methods a farmer uses to grow and harvest the food I eat, of course I'd prefer them not to kill in the process but I have very little say in it if I want to continue getting enough food to survive.

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    Default Re: Animals killed in plant fields

    The person you were arguing with is using very flawed logic. In effect, what he is saying is, "Because we as humans inevitably cause death to animals merely by existing on this planet, we might as well cause just as much suffering and death to animals as possible." He's saying if you can't be perfect, there's no point in even trying to be good as you can. It's complete nonsense.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Animals killed in plant fields

    Yep, as all above say, veganism isn't about perfection; it's about damage limitation. If living my life as best I can results in the deaths of a handful of animals instead of thousands of them, then so be it.
    The things that we fear the most have already happened to us...

  8. #8
    PygmyGoat
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    Default Re: Animals killed in plant fields

    Would just like to add, though, that I live in the middle (literally) of arable farming country, and I hate to see the farmers spraying the crops, am thankful that burning (of stubble) is now outlawed, and do say little prayers for all the fieldmice, birds, hedgehogs, etc throughout the harvesting time .

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    Default Re: Animals killed in plant fields

    The person with this argument is most likely trying to justify meat eating. I see it a lot on a buddhist forum I go on.
    The answer is that we don't intentionally kill animals when we eat vegetables.
    Meat is animals which have been intentionally killed.
    The ethics is in the intention.
    Howver I try not to get into this argument if I can resist doing so, because the intent of the person starting the discussion, is to justify meat eating. So I'd prefer not to waste energy on it.
    Last edited by herbwormwood; Oct 13th, 2006 at 01:33 PM. Reason: spelling mistakes
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    Default Re: Animals killed in plant fields

    Someone from the USA made that accusation against me on my blog once (unfortunately, I can't find the post now). He said something like, "Far more animals are killed by combine harvesters in this country than die in slaughterhouses."

    So I looked up some facts.

    I found an anti-vegan site that claimed that 5 million animals were killed every year in the US by combine harvesters. (I figured that an anti-vegan site was far more likely to be an over-estimate than an under-estimate - hell, I suspect it's a huge *over* estimate, since how would they know?)

    Then I found out that 6 *billion* animals were killed every year in US slaughterhouses.

    I put this in my reply, and then asked him how he could explain saying that one thing was far greater than a second thing when it turned out that the second thing was actually one thousand times greater than the first thing.

    I seem to recall that he didn't answer.

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    Default Re: Animals killed in plant fields

    On the positive side, at least in the UK, farmers are re-planting hedges, leaving set-aside areas and even planting trees and areas of wildflowers. Some even check their fields for nesting birds and mark where they are. I know it will takes many years to undo the damage but at least it's a start.
    "Do what you can with what you have where you are."
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    Default Re: Animals killed in plant fields

    Quote Jonny Nexus View Post
    Then I found out that 6 *billion* animals were killed every year in US slaughterhouses.
    Neal Barnard of PCRM says that Americans are now eating one million animals every hour.

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    Ex-admin Korn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Animals killed in plant fields

    Neal Barnard of PCRM says that Americans are now eating one million animals every hour.
    ...animals, which has grown up eating plants from the plants fields we are discussing.

    Are there any studies that show how many mice etc. that actually are being killed in plant production? Links? I currently live next to three plant fields, and while I've seen many animals around here, including mice in our house, swans in the garden, roe deer, squirrels, fox and badgers outside the house, I've never seen one single mouse in these plant fields I walk next to almost every day. And I have been looking for them, after all this talk about mice being killed when growing plants for human and animal consumption.

    The mice are very afraid of people and run away if they hear threatening noises. Agriculture is dependent on noisy machines, and I guess they'll run as fast as they can if they hear one coming.

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    Default Re: Animals killed in plant fields

    Quote Pascale
    I figure that a person can only do a certain amount to help, but it is an issue.
    I agree that it's an issue. Mechanised, globalised agriculture is a disaster for all life forms. In its drive for efficiency, the habitats of our fellow creatures have to be destroyed, merely to accomodate the machinery. (This is probably why mice are so scarce in your fields Korn, but more common in your house.)

    Organic agriculture seems to have shed some of the destructive habits of Western agriculture but seems to think it's still ok to air freight its produce right around the world to meet consumer demand

    Obviously an omnivore trying to refute veganism on the basis of bad farming practice can safely be ignored. But I think vegans should at least be mindful of the nature of modern agriculture and seek alternative food sources wherever possible.

    (I remember reading somewhere that Donald Watson always used a fork, rather than a spade, to cultivate his garden in order to minimise the destruction of soil life.)
    We are saved in the end by the things that ignore us. Andrew Harvey

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    perfect RedWellies's Avatar
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    Default Re: Animals killed in plant fields

    Regarding mice.. those in the house (house mice) are probably not the same as those in the fields (field mice, voles,etc).
    "Do what you can with what you have where you are."
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    Cool Re: Animals killed in plant fields

    Hey I'm new here, but I would just like to say that I have worked on a farm and have seen the animals that are killed by the industry (mice, birds, etc.). I would have to assume that organic farms do a better job, but I'm not sure. I know that for me a big part of my veganism is trying to be as self sufficient as possible. I have a garden during the summer months and try to eat as much as possible from that garden. I also try to buy from local farmers that I know and have seen their methods.
    The commercial farming industry is despicable whether we are talking about the meat industry or the plant industry. Organic is a step above, but still lacking. We need to be aware of what we are eating. While everyone may not be able to have their own gardens, or be sure of the source of every vegetable, I think that it's important that we are atleast aware. That enables us to do as much as possible and strive for something better. This is my first post here, so thanks for reading!

    - The Duck

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    Default Re: Animals killed in plant fields

    Quote Jonny Nexus View Post
    I found an anti-vegan site that claimed that 5 million animals were killed every year in the US by combine harvesters.
    How did they estimate that exactly? Not to mention that many of those combine harvesters are cutting down the grain to feed farmed animals.

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    Quote fiamma View Post
    ...so even if he ate a solely meat-based diet...
    Well, you could argue that a solely meat-based diet would be better for the environment. Just imagine how much more quickly your arteries would clog, how high your blood pressure and cholesterol would be, and, basically, how much more quickly you would die and stop abusing the environment.

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    Default Re: Animals killed in plant fields

    Quote fiamma View Post
    How did they estimate that exactly? Not to mention that many of those combine harvesters are cutting down the grain to feed farmed animals.
    Well exactly. I suspect it's a ludicrously exaggerated figure - and I pointed this out fully in my original blog post. But even that ludicrously exaggerated figure was still a thousand times less than the number killed in slaughterhouses.

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    Default Re: Animals killed in plant fields

    Now, I've weighed the pros and cons of this dilemma and thought about this ALOT and the conclusion that I've come to is that I'd rather support the vegan food industry (the deaths from harvesting and all) than grow my own food. If we were to all farm and grow our own food would this not decrease the production of vegan food? The less vegan food there is in grocery stores the less people will become vegan. Supply and demand. If we were to boycott everything that caused harm to animals and even people in general we would be separated from society and I don't think you can help society when you're separated from it, correct?

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    Default Re: Animals killed in plant fields

    I kind of got into it with someone about that too. Look at this page the person sent....

    http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=grill

    It is upsetting, but I would *think* that the sound of the machine coming would cause the animals to take off right? I mean, those machines don't go very fast you know
    "We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." Kant

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    Ex-admin Korn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Animals killed in plant fields

    That site (thebestpageintheuniverse... etc) doesn't really deserve much attention, but since the question about animals killed in plant production comes up now and then, I had a look at it.

    It starts with 'every year millions of animals are killed by wheat and soy bean combines during harvesting season (source)' - but the link to the source is dead.


    Then: "That's right: the gloves have come off. The vegetarian response to this embarrassing fact is "well, at least we're not killing intentionally."" But that's not what vegetarians/vegans are saying. We're saying that even if we all - by accident - may kill an animal due to our lifestyle (eg. sitting on a train that kills an animal), that doesn't give us an ethical to go and kill another animal intentionally.


    "not only are animals ruthlessly being murdered as a direct result of your diet, but you're not even using the meat of the animals YOU kill?" If these people think it's right - and if they want - to eat eg. rats and mice that are killed in the process of growing plants or during the harvest, they should do it. The point is that they are feeding plants/grain from these fields to some other animals (chicken, cows...) and eat them instead.

    "At least we're eating the animals we kill". They don't eat the animals that are killed in the process of producing plants meant for factory animals.

    "(and although we also contribute to the slaughter of animals during grain harvesting, keep in mind that we're not the ones with a moral qualm about it)". Not having moral qualm isn't an argument, and doesn't change the fact that they 'kill twice'.

    "That makes you just as morally repugnant than any meat-eater any day."
    No, it doesn't, because more killing is worse than less killing. And the difference is huge.

    "Not only that, but you're killing free-roaming animals, not animals that were raised for feed." So do meat eaters - in addition to eating the animals that are forced to live a caged life before they are eaten. Non-valid 'argument' again.

    "Their bodies get mangled in the combine's machinery, bones crushed, and you have the audacity to point fingers at the meat industry for humanely punching a spike through a cow's neck?" Meat eaters are just as responsible for this, and they are responsible for a lot more of it, because it takes so much many square feet of acre to produce all the plants needed for meat production.

    "To even suggest that your meal is some how "guiltless" is absurd." Everybody who have been taking a walk may have killed an insect, and I don't think any vegans have ever claimed that they have never harmed an animal directly or indirectly. It's not about being perfect, but about reducing harm as much as possible!

    "How is it not intentional if you KNOW that millions of animals die every year in combines during harvest?" If a vegan would like to reduce that amount, he'd have to move towards a more 'primitive' lifestyle (grow his own food etc), or maybe eat less grains and focus on plants that are being manually collected, not move in the opposite direction (eat less plants and more factory meat). Ideally he could eat only plants produced using veganic/organic methods. Non-valid 'argument again'.


    "Not to mention that the majority of grain grown for livestock is tough as rocks, coarse, and so low-grade that it's only fit for animal consumption in the first place. " Not relevant. In a vegan world, this soil could be used to produce other plants. By having more land available, we'd be actually also be less dependent of using various methods to make the plants grow faster and bigger; we could grow more plants (for human consumption) instead of pushing the growth of a smaller amount of plants, and could even over-produce food and give it away to people in need - without extra costs.


    "Spare me the "you could feed 500 people with the grain used to feed one cow" line of shit; it's not the same grain." Not at all relevant. Nobody has suggested that humans should eat the same food that factory animals are fed today.

    "Then there are the people who jump on the bandwagon with "you could plant billions of potatoes on the land used for cows"--good point, except for the fact that not every plot of land is equally fertile; you think farmers always have a choice on what they do with their land?" Again - not relevant. If potatoes can't be grown there, grow something else!!!

    "Also, many vegetarians don't know (or care to acknowledge) that in many parts of the United States they have "control hunts" in which hunting permits are passed out whenever there is a pest problem (the pest here is deer, elk and antelope) that threatens wheat, soy, vegetable and other crops; this happens several times per year. " This would apply to land used to produce food for 'factory animals' too, and since more land is needed to produce food 'via animals', the problem is less when producing plants for direct human consumption only, because less land is needed.

    "A murderer who kills 10 people is no better off than a murderer who kills 20 if the murder is avoidable."

    The main point is that the 10 people not killed by murderer # 1 in your example and their families would think differently - because they are definitely 'better off': they are alive!


    "I keep getting email from moral vegetarians saying "HEY MADOX WE FEED MORE GRAIN TO ANIMALS AND IF YOU EAT THE ANIMALS YOU ARE KILLING TWICE AS MUCH." No shit? The only difference is that I'm not protesting at street corners about other peoples' diets[...]"

    Wrong: it's not 'the only difference'. Vegans/vegetarians make a HUGE difference - for animals, for themselves, and for the environment.


    The situation is pretty simple actually. When growing food (as opposed to collecting food), a few decisions have to be made.

    1) Grow food for humans - or grow food for animals, and then kill and eat the animals? A vegan is against killing animals for food, so the choice is easy.

    2) Plant, grow and pick your own crops or buy food in shops? Maybe growing our own food is the best solution - that's what the hippie movement advocated in the sixties - but with millions of vegans and vegetarians there isn't enough land for sale out there in the first place, plus - for most people - it wouldn't be combinable with living in today's society, it wouldn't be practical/possible for most people.

    3) Avoid eating plants because some animals may be killed in modern agriculture? No, because the same plants (and many more + about 1000 other animals pr.human) are killed when living on a non-vegan diet. No solution at all. Since a lot more land is needed to produce food for factory farms, more mice etc. would be killed in the process of producing food for factory animals than if the land was used for feeding humans directly.

    The bottom line is that vegans and vegetarians don't support the idea that animals are to be seen as food for humans. We don't think we are given the right to decide that they shall die or suffer only to please the desires of meat eating humans - meat eaters who most likely have never decided to start to eat meat, but who just do it because they are used to it.

    As I've written earlier, I also think the problem is highly exaggerated, which is probably why we haven't seen any documentation yet.

  23. #23
    Free & Wild Tray's Avatar
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    Default Re: Animals killed in plant fields

    fortunately here in switzerland the state is starting to subsidize farmers who choose to give up cultivation in some of their fields and let them go bush.
    Surely these fields won't produce food but they'll help to create the habitat for cetain species and to augment the biodiversity.

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    Abe Froman Risker's Avatar
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    Default Re: Animals killed in plant fields

    Quote SandraD View Post
    I kind of got into it with someone about that too. Look at this page the person sent....

    http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=grill
    From that site;

    Do you hate beef jerky?

    No, dumbass. The following words should never be taken literally on my site: "always, every, all, everything, nothing," and "never." Actually most of the things I say I hate on my site, I really don't care about strongly in real life. Animals and animal rights for example. I just don't give a shit either way. So why do I say animals are only good for eating? Well, for two reasons. First of all, because they are. And second, just to piss off animal rights activists--those crazy bastards that protest McDonalds (people should be protesting McDonalds, not because of animal rights, but because their food is shitty).
    "I don't want to live on this planet any more" - Professor Hubert J. Farnsworth

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    Default Re: Animals killed in plant fields

    A page like that one on the Internet just makes me wonder what vegetarians have done to make meat-eaters so defensive. Go vegans go!!!!

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    Default Re: Animals killed in plant fields

    I know what you mean fiamma. I call it veganphobia....not a phobia but it sounds better than meat-eater defense
    "We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." Kant

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    Default Re: Animals killed in plant fields

    Veganphobia... I like it! We could write a book called Who's Afraid Of The Vegan? I think there are definitely people who are "scared" of vegans, and I think this "phobia" is caused by feelings of guilt, or insecurity. If people felt no guilt, or felt secure and confident within themselves, they wouldn't feel the need to write such poisonous articles. Just my two cents.

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    CATWOMAN sandra's Avatar
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    Default Re: Animals killed in plant fields

    I agree

  29. #29
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    Default Re: Animals killed in plant fields

    My sister suffers badly from vegan phobia, she refuses to touch anything I cook, to eat anything that would contain even the tiniest amount soymilk or anything like tahini, "strange grains", soy ice cream, not to mention mock meats!

    If my mum makes a crumble or anything with dairy free margarine, and tells her that while we are eating, she can barely eat it!

    isnt this a bit strange? She has also told me that her vision of a meal is meat-with-something (somewhat three times a day...??)

    Its funny cause my parents are not like this at all, she is older than me and moved back here temporarily, and to this day she has never tried anything I have made!

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    Default Re: Animals killed in plant fields

    Quote Korn View Post
    "A murderer who kills 10 people is no better off than a murderer who kills 20 if the murder is avoidable."

    The main point is that the 10 people not killed by murderer # 1 in your example and their families would think differently - because they are definitely 'better off': they are alive!
    Yeah, exactly. It's quite absurd for them to say there is no line to draw between vegans and meat eaters. Completely ignoring quantity and effort is the worst logic I've ever heard of. Apply that logic to any other part of life and any person can see how ridiculous that is.

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    Default Re: Animals killed in plant fields

    Windfall is it possible that she is envious or jealous of you in some way? It seems that there are unresolved issues there somewhere, and the only way she can express these is reacting to the food you or your Mum make. Have you tried talking to her? Must be a hurtful situation to everyone involved, hope things improve for you and her

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    Default Re: Animals killed in plant fields

    I realise this is an issue for some of you who have encountered this argument,
    but I am convinced it is a way for meat eaters to try and justify their meat eating
    and try to get at vegetarians and vegans.
    I now try not to waste my time on these people.
    The fact that they go to such lengths to ridicule vegetarians and vegans tells me their attitudes are too entrenched to change.
    Their propaganda is not worth the paper its writtten on.
    Last edited by herbwormwood; Oct 23rd, 2006 at 04:56 PM. Reason: spelling
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  33. #33
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    Default Re: Animals killed in plant fields

    Quote fiamma View Post
    Windfall is it possible that she is envious or jealous of you in some way? It seems that there are unresolved issues there somewhere, and the only way she can express these is reacting to the food you or your Mum make. Have you tried talking to her? Must be a hurtful situation to everyone involved, hope things improve for you and her
    I don't know really, we are very different from each other when it comes to most things, I try not to take things like this to heart, I just think it's a bit sad that she can't appreciate some influences

  34. #34
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    Default Re: Animals killed in plant fields

    "I keep getting email from moral vegetarians saying "HEY MADOX WE FEED MORE GRAIN TO ANIMALS AND IF YOU EAT THE ANIMALS YOU ARE KILLING TWICE AS MUCH." No shit? The only difference is that I'm not protesting at street corners about other peoples' diets[...]"
    This may not be typical, but I see loads more anti-vegan propaganda than vegan propaganda. I often see anti-vegan or anti-vegetarian t-shirts and bumper stickers. A couple of dumb examples:

    "If we aren't supposed to eat animals, then why are they made out of meat?" (This one is so incredibly stupid, I actually thought it was supposed to be making fun of people who eat meat when I first saw it.)

    "'Vegetarian' - Indian word for 'bad hunter'"

    "Save a cow, eat a vegetarian"

    And of course, the decal of Calvin peeing on the word "PETA."

    I agree with everyone's assessment that non-vegetarians and non-vegans are simply threatened by the concept of a group of people claiming to live a lifestyle that is morally superior to theirs. Thus the backlash is much stronger than any pressure vegans may put on meat eaters. It doesn't matter how hard you try not to impose; they are threatened by our very existence. People are often much more eager to justify whatever it is that they're currently doing than open their minds to the possibility of positive change.

  35. #35
    jonjan
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    Default Re: Animals killed in plant fields

    Hi,

    I did some research on this a few years ago. They're called "collateral death" and they do happen. Some animals are hurt or killed during plowing and harvesting. Some are poisoned so they don't eating the growing crops, and poisons and cats are also used to kill animals that might eat the harvested crops.

    There are some easy ways to reduce these deaths. Growing your own food is a simply way. And even large farms can use some easy techniques to reduce them, such as leave empty space around the outside of the fields.

    There are also big differences between the freedom of those wild animals, compared to the lives of the farmed animals.

    I made this website to present what I found after learning more about it
    http://www.helpusall.com/morepeacefuldiet.html

    there are also differences in terms of the environmental effects of them.
    i made a page on them too

    Jon
    http://helpusall.com/foodandenvironment.html

  36. #36
    KcCrash
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    Default argument on another forum

    .Me:
    I try to contribute to/support as little suffering as possible.
    If I ate animals as well as plants, I would be contributing more.

    There are some things I can do little about, some things I can.
    I value all animal life, insects/mice included yes.
    It would actually probably just about balance out.

    Them.
    For reference, crops used for animal fodder are of a lower quality, so are not protected as much as crops used for human consumption, and therefore kill significantly fewer "pests" in their production.
    What sahll I say.

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    Default Re: Animals killed in plant fields

    Quote Pascale View Post
    I was on a different message board having a disagreement with this other person. He was condemning the vegan/vegetarian diet because animals are killed to harvest food, particularly "pest" animals, like deer, get shot so they don't eat the crops. What do you guys think about this? I figure that a person can only do a certain amount to help, but it is an issue.

    What a crock of sh#t, this made me so mad when i read it. These people who justify killing of animals to protect their crop make me mad. And then try to pass the blame on to people who are against killing is flawed logic, these people are no better then the guys or girls pulling the trigger of the gun killing the rabbits, or running the hedgehog over in their tractors.

    It safe to say the earth is not ours its for sharing if the deer eat a bit of crop then let them. Dont pass on someone elses guilt to me as I certainly wouldn't pull the trigger, lay the bait, or swerve to get the rabbit. I would feed the deer and have a few non human friends.

    As for the mice and the combine harvesters. Its the society we live in, mass produced, non caring, profit making, greedy world we live in. I certainly dont agree with the methods but have to make the best out of a bad situation.

  38. #38
    jonjan
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    Default Re: Animals killed in plant fields

    It matters for sure, we all matter.

    I think it helps keep perspective, and help put us all into a category of "us".. rather than 'us vegans/ us caring people' and 'the others'. We can all keep helping and encouraging others (and respectfully detatch from those trying to blame or judge).

    We can all eat less ("caloric restriction" has impressive benefits to health
    http://www.veggieboards.com/boards/s...ad.php?t=62465 (my referenced searches)
    , as well as reducing everything involved in producing and transporting food, energy, land, water, oil/energy used, transportation, etc.

    Eat more organic food(less pesticide and other poisons = fewer injuries to animals and insects and the rest of nature (and us too!)

    Eat more local (reduce the impact of long-distance transportation)
    -local farms, farmers markets

    Grow your own food, even if it's just a few simple to grow tomato plants (they are about as easy as it gets and cheap)


    I think the 'solution' is ultimately in eating less. It is incredible the health benefits also that come from it. See the references above, and I also have my own experience with a few-week juice fast (increased my jogging stamina, increased muscle mass, lost excess weight.. on juice alone.)

  39. #39
    squigaletta's Avatar
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    Default Re: Animals killed in plant fields

    What are the worst foods for causing collateral deaths? ie. which foods are harvested with a combine? I would imagine that if your diet is more heavily in favour of foods not collected by combine harvester you would reduce this number significantly (not that I am condeming anyone for eating these foods, I am just wondering) I eat mainly fruit and fruit like or root vegetables, and don't eat too much grain (no bread etc), however I am partial to seitan, soya and oatmeal.

  40. #40
    blueeyesstef's Avatar
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    Default Re: Animals killed in plant fields

    Would it depend on the farmer? and how he treats the wild life on his land?
    I guess some sorts of food have more collatral damage than others I guess.

    I do know some farmers are very shooting happy and like to keep certain wildlife away from their crops.

  41. #41
    songlife
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    Default Re: Animals killed in plant fields

    Quote thecatspajamas1 View Post
    Even if this happens, you are using less crops than a meateater because it takes more crops to feed the animals first. (10 times more grain to make a pound of beef compared to just eating the pound of grain directly!) So a vegan is not contributing to the problem as much as a meateater is, even though their diet is plant based.

    To contribute even less to this problem, one could grow their own vegetables, or only buy from local farms where they can find out whether or not this happens.
    If I had a penny for every time I had to explain that to the logically challenged...

  42. #42
    Johnstuff's Avatar
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    Default Re: Animals killed in plant fields

    Are there any (accurate, scientific) studies that anyone knows of that indicate the amount colateral animals (or whatever the term is) in different food?

    Are the mice (for example) shredded by the harvesting process and included in the end product (maybe labelled as vegan?) or killed but then removed before the food is produced. ie. what percentage of mouse is in your average loaf of bread?

    There was a guy (probably on omni) in the paper the other day who was annoyed that he had found a fly in a chocolate biscuit. Maybe the company will respond by saying "well that's nothing there's also 5% mouse in there".


    I think it's a serious issue that we should at least consider, however the questions (such as in the first post) are put to us in an anti-vegan way by people who don't really care. They just want to prove us wrong.

    Like when I tell someone I'm vegan and the first thing they say is "come off it, you wear leather don't you?" - They don't really care about saving cows, they just want to find fault with me (of course I don't wear leather, my shoes are vinal).

    Sorry for the waffle!

  43. #43
    Mahk
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    Default Re: Animals killed in plant fields

    Quote squigaletta View Post
    What are the worst foods for causing collateral deaths? ie. which foods are harvested with a combine?
    So many that it wouldn't be practical to avoid them. Keep in mind that in addition to those specific vegetables (and pretty much all grains in general) you would also have to consider the byproducts. For example corn. Even if you haven't eaten corn in a decade, almost every day or at least week you may ingest a little corn meal, corn flour, tacos, corn oil, corn chips, Fritos, corn puffs, corn breakfast cereal like Puffins, corn syrup, high fructose corn syrup (found in almost all soft drinks here in the US at least, i.e. Coke), Doritos, corn cakes, breads made with corn flour, vitamin C (is usually derived from corn), tostados....

    And where does corn come from? This machine.

  44. #44
    squigaletta's Avatar
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    Default Re: Animals killed in plant fields

    I was not going to aim to cut out all of the 'high collateral' foods, just wondering if that was the way it worked. It would be impossible to be perfect, I think being aware of the facts can only ever be a beneficial thing

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