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Thread: 'Orthorexia'

  1. #1
    Ex-admin Korn's Avatar
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    Default 'Orthorexia'

    I've seen the term orthorexia mentioned a couple of places, mainly by people who clearly can be defined as 'anti-vegans'.

    Here's the questions people are supposed to use as a reference in order to find out if they suffer from orthorexia or not:


    Are you spending more than three hours a day thinking about healthy food?
    Are you planning tomorrow's menu today?
    Is the virtue you feel about what you eat more important than the pleasure you receive from eating it?
    Has the quality of your life decreased as the quality of your diet increased?
    Have you become stricter with yourself?
    Does your self-esteem get a boost from eating healthy?
    Do you look down on others who don't eat this way? Do you skip foods you once enjoyed in order to eat the "right" foods?
    Does your diet make it difficult for you to eat anywhere but at home, distancing you from friends and family.
    Do you feel guilt or self-loathing when you stray from your diet?
    When you eat the way you're supposed to, do you feel in total control?
    Of course there are neurotic and obsessive people who are vegans, and neurotic/obsessive behavior can be dangerous. But when looking at the questions above, it looks like this list could generate a false feeling of suffering from an obsession among people who only want to stay healthy, help animals and the environment, and get rid of bad, old eating habits.

    "Have you become stricter with yourself?" Since the term strict often is used about people who 'strictly' avoid meat/eggs/dairy products, isn't this question kind of odd? If a person for a long time have wanted to eat more ethical/healthy, and therefore become vegans, this doesn't need to mean that there is anything neurotic or eating disorder like in being strict. A vegan who avoid animal products isn't more 'strict' than a non-violent person who 'strictly' avoids harming or killing humans....

    "Do you skip foods you once enjoyed in order to eat the "right" foods?"
    Of course we do! Kids normally learn/are trained to enjoy the food they are given by their parents, so when moving from eating what our parents gave us to eating what we actually want to eat, of course lots of vegans and lacto-vegetarians skip foods they once enjoyed in order to eat what what we actually want to and agree in. How can such a question be part of defining an eating disorder?

    "Does your diet make it difficult for you to eat anywhere but at home, distancing you from friends and family?" I personally don't, but veggies who live in areas with few vegan/vegetarian options may feel that way, and for a reason: our society is for various reasons more or less obsessed with animal products, and of course, some people may find it difficult to find vegan food in some areas: not because they have an eating disorder, but because food without animal products may be hard to find in some areas (but more available than ever).

    "Does your self-esteem get a boost from eating healthy?" I think all people who are able to change from a diet they actually never have chosen to eating what they actually want to eat, and to eat healthy will feel better about themselves, just like a person who has been sitting in a chair at work/home for 20 years and finally gets a bike or kayak and starts to get in better shape will feel better about himself. But should increased self-esteem as a result of health improvements be used as an indication for having an eating disorder? No!

    "Do you look down on others who don't eat this way?" Many pre-vegans may have been admiring vegans before they went vegan (for being able to live according to their viewpoints), but that doesn't mean that they look down on non-vegans after they become vegans. Still, they may 'look down on' actions that cause death and suffering for innocent animals. I can't see that this should be used as a reference for diagnosing an eating disorder. Maybe 'looking down on' people or being judgmental (in one meaning of the word) always is neurotic, but that's very different from setting up a list like this and tell people that if you answered yes to two or three of these questions, they may have a mild case of orthorexia.

    "When you eat the way you're supposed to, do you feel in total control?" I think most people are interested in 'control' of over their lives, in the positive meaning f the word. If a person who grows into a lifestyle and viewpoints which may be difficult to follow because others (with a different lifestyle/viewpoints) control what kind if ingredients that are used in school lunches, cafe food, and products we buy in general, of course it's satisfying to be able to reclaim the right to decide ('control') what we eat and to choose to be able eat something according to what we feel is right/healthy etc. Everybody wants to be able to live according to the lifestyle they have chosen instead of being controlled but others. But this has nothing to do with 'control' in the negative meaning of the word. More than anything else, it can't be wrong NOT to want to control (in a negative way) how animals should live, and the only way to be a vegan, is to let go of the false right to control the lives of animals that we have been trained to believe that we humans are given. Being a non-vegan always implies (negative) control over others' (animals') lives.

    If answering yes to a few of these questions means that we should consider ourselves suffering from a eating disorder, I'd say that the term orthorexia either is another silly attempt of anti-veggie propaganda, or that it's definition is so wrong/inaccurate that it can't be used for any kind of diagnosis, except diagnosing the agenda of the person who invented it...

  2. #2

    Default Re: Orthorexia

    i don't agree with you. if you do have problems with yourself and you suffer from an eating disorder - then it doesn't matter if it's anorexia, bulimia, bing-eating or orthorexia. if healthy eating is something that makes your life hard to live, then you ARE too obsessive about it. there is a clear line - when you're sick, and when you're not.

  3. #3
    baffled harpy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Orthorexia

    I think orthorexia is probably a genuine disorder, but if the term is being used to categorise vegans as a group then it's being misused.

    It would be quite wrong to categorise vegans generally as obsessed with healthy eating. Didn't we have a poll that showed that health was at most a secondary consideration for most of us in becoming vegan?

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    I eve's Avatar
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    Default Re: Orthorexia

    Reading the threads on this forum, one could be forgiven for thinking that obsessing about food, health, health problems, really are vegan attributes. To be truthful, I've never come across so many people with health problems - real or imagined - as are portrayed here.
    Eve

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    Ex-admin Korn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Orthorexia

    That could be because people with health problems more easily go vegan than others, because they have personal needs for health improvements helping them to take the big step. Or that people with problems post more about their problems than people who don't have problems, for obvious reason. Or maybe they feel that they can get useful advice hear that they can't get from their doctor, because doctors normally know little about (vegan) nutrition?

  6. #6
    PygmyGoat
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    Default Re: Orthorexia

    ^ or it could be that through Veganism some people learn a lot more about health and with this new knowledge wish to recognise and overcome some personal health problems in order to get more out of life.

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    baffled harpy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Orthorexia

    Quote Korn View Post
    Or maybe they feel that they can get useful advice hear that they can't get from their doctor, because doctors normally know little about (vegan) nutrition?

    Yes, and they are also often hoping to avoid conventional (tested-on-animals) treatments as far as possible I imagine. (Of course, it isn't always possible.)

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    CATWOMAN sandra's Avatar
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    Default Re: Orthorexia

    There will always be people who have food related disorders, but it has nothing to do with being vegan. I can only speak for myself of course but food isn't that important to me, of course I need it to stay alive but I don't obsess about it.
    If I have problems because I'm vegan, it's not to do with the food I eat, or my attitude to it, but the world I live in.
    Being vegan has improved my health enormously, I have no more trouble with stomach ulcers and my OCD is practically non existant, so how can that be a bad thing? I disagree with you Eve that vegans obsess about food and health, I know quite a few non-vegans who do exactly that!
    I'm sure on a forum for omnivores you would get the same sort of discussions about health as you do here, only in a different context.
    If they are now trying to say that because you are vegan you are sufferring from a disorder, they are deluding themselves, as for me being vegan has very little to do with what I eat and more about what I don't eat.

  9. #9
    Ex-admin Korn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Orthorexia

    Quote Smoothie View Post
    i don't agree with you. if you do have problems with yourself and you suffer from an eating disorder - then it doesn't matter if it's anorexia, bulimia, bing-eating or orthorexia. if healthy eating is something that makes your life hard to live, then you ARE too obsessive about it. there is a clear line - when you're sick, and when you're not.
    The reason that orthorexia is questioned, is that according to it's definition, most people who are vegans/into natural, healthy food would be described as having some degree of orthorexia.

    When, at the same time, people who use that term say that orthorexia may start in a very mild, innocent way and develop into serious health problems, the term itself can be used to make people critical against changing their diet/lifestyle in a vegan/heathy direction. Look at the questions again - several of them definitely doesn't make sense.

    if you do have problems with yourself and you suffer from an eating disorder - then it doesn't matter if it's anorexia, bulimia, bing-eating or orthorexia
    But 'having problems with yourself' or 'suffering' isn't needed to be diagnosed with orthoroxia... Any vegan or rawfoodist or lacto-vegetarian who come across the few people that actually use the term orthorexia may be diagnised as orthorectic.


    if healthy eating is something that makes your life hard to live, then you ARE too obsessive about it. there is a clear line - when you're sick, and when you're not
    Since most adults and kids live in a society where food that has a been documented as unhealthy is available almost everywhere, and healthy, plant based, organic food is difficult to find in many areas, how hard it is to follow a lifestyle you agree in is totally dependent on where and you live, and may have nothing to do with eating disorders at all. I'm sure that if you ask someone who was a vegan 30-40-50 years ago how hard it was to be vegan then compared with how hard it is now, you'll understand what I mean!

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    baffled harpy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Orthorexia

    I think that list of questions is a bit misleading. It could pick up vegans and also, for example, Jewish people who decide to eat kosher, whereas they don't fall under what I understand to be the usual definition of orthorexia, which is an obsession with healthy eating, as opposed to an adherence to dietary rules.

    Of course vegans can become "obsessive" about veganism but whether it's a problem is to some extent a matter of opinion. The discussions here about whether you should worry about traces of animal products in your food show that different people draw the line in different places.

  11. #11
    Ex-admin Korn's Avatar
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    Default Re: 'Orthorexia'

    Of course vegans can become "obsessive" about veganism but whether it's a problem is to some extent a matter of opinion.
    I think Smoothie has a very good point (the one about actually suffering and actually having an easting disorder).

    It's also easy to see that eating vegan, which by outsiders may be seen as something very restrictive, or any other lifestyle that involves staying away from things most people do every day, can attract people with certain neurotic patterns and maybe even be used in a negative way to 'feed the neurosis'. But being afraid of making your own decisions in life, avoid anything that makes you sticking out from a crowd and feeling that you always have to do and eat what most others eat and do may be at least as neurotic, and may even be more dangerous in the long run.

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    Default Re: 'Orthorexia'

    Is Orthorexia a new word/illness? I'd not heard it before reading another post on the forum. To be honest, I thought the poster had just spelt anorexia incorrectly
    "Do what you can with what you have where you are."
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  13. #13
    baffled harpy's Avatar
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    Default Re: 'Orthorexia'

    It must exist - it's in the Torygraph

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/ma.../horthos01.xml
    Last edited by harpy; Oct 9th, 2006 at 11:42 AM. Reason: Forgot to include link!

  14. #14
    Ex-admin Korn's Avatar
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    Default Re: 'Orthorexia'

    It's a word invented by a certain doctor (don't remember his name right now) - a word that covers a disease that others question if actually exists in the form it is described.

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    Default Re: 'Orthorexia'

    Quote Korn View Post
    (don't remember his name right now).
    Steve Bratman
    http://www.orthorexia.com/index.php?page=Bratman

  16. #16
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    Default Re: 'Orthorexia'

    Humans are funny creatures. We can apparently manage to get sick and die from trying to be healthy! That's quite funny!
    "Do what you can with what you have where you are."
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  17. #17
    PygmyGoat
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    Default Re: 'Orthorexia'

    There's a name for everything these days!!! .

  18. #18
    baffled harpy's Avatar
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    Default Re: 'Orthorexia'

    Yes, if it exists it would just be a form of OCD I would think. Not sure why it needs a special name, except that it may help people to make some money out of it

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    CATWOMAN sandra's Avatar
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    Default Re: 'Orthorexia'

    There should be a term for people who obsess over unhealthy eating! Look at the way omnivores obsess about food, all the books and t.v programmes dedicated to food. It really annoys me when there's food programmes on t.v and they sit there for half an hour discussing a particular 'dish' and how it is presented. It's obscene when there are people starving in the world, that all they worry about is making plates of food with tiny little parcels of this, that and the other in them. That's what I call obsessing about food, but nobody questions that attitude do they?

  20. #20
    PygmyGoat
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    ^ I so agree, Sandra!! . I just don't get that - people spending hours making dead things into 'food' dishes and travelling miles out of their way just to buy particularly expensive ingredients - and feeling proud that they do, rather than embarrassed!! .

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    Default Re: 'Orthorexia'

    Orthorexia is a relatively new disorder, or the diagnosis is new. I think the difference between veganism and orthorexia is emotionally based. Eating Disorders revolve around fear, if there is an intense fear of foods that are not 'safe' foods. Again its centered around self-hatred and control. Just being vegan and wanting to eat healthily is not going to get you a diagnosis of orthorexia.
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    Default Re: 'Orthorexia'

    Is this "disorder" in the DSM IV? Or is it just a term used by one doctor who made it up?
    I eat nutritional yeast by the spoonful.

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    baffled harpy's Avatar
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    Default Re: 'Orthorexia'

    Quote thecatspajamas1 View Post
    Is this "disorder" in the DSM IV? Or is it just a term used by one doctor who made it up?
    Neither of these - I think he coined the term after DSM IV was published, but other people seem to be using it now and I suppose it might find its way into a future DSM

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    I eve's Avatar
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    Default Re: Orthorexia

    Quote sandra View Post
    ... If I have problems because I'm vegan, it's not to do with the food I eat, or my attitude to it, but the world I live in. ...

    I disagree with you Eve that vegans obsess about food and health, I know quite a few non-vegans who do exactly that! I'm sure on a forum for omnivores you would get the same sort of discussions about health as you do here, only in a different context.
    Yes, sandra, the world we live in - that's what is mostly on my mind - seeing and reading about the tragedy of Iraq, Afghanistan, Darfur, Chechnya, and many other places. Also learning about how the big pharmaceutical companies are more powerful than the powerful US government. Then there's climate change, the environment, the insidious changes to food through genetic engineering, the increasing numbers of people seeking refuge, and on top of all this and plenty more, there is the never ending population growth, ensuring that whatever steps are taken to deal with the environment, those steps can never be sufficient to offset the tragedies.

    With all this going on, sorry if so many real or imagined health disorders are not at the top of everyone's list of concern. But I agree with you, sandra, that omnivores also obsess about food, and like you I find annoying all the books, newspaper articles, and tv programs dedicated to their appetites. It certainly is obscene that with people starving in the world, all they worry about is making plates of food with tiny little parcels of this, that and the other in them.

    I apologise if my postings have offended.
    Eve

  25. #25
    mango
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    Default Re: 'Orthorexia'

    Quote Wishin986 View Post
    Orthorexia is a relatively new disorder, or the diagnosis is new. I think the difference between veganism and orthorexia is emotionally based. Eating Disorders revolve around fear, if there is an intense fear of foods that are not 'safe' foods. Again its centered around self-hatred and control. Just being vegan and wanting to eat healthily is not going to get you a diagnosis of orthorexia.
    Maybe not from a reasonable doctor, but there are a lot of fanatical doctors around, and more importantly it gives anti-vegans yet another nonsensical way to attack vegans.

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    CATWOMAN sandra's Avatar
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    Default Re: 'Orthorexia'

    Hello Eve,
    No you certainly didn't offend ME, I just think that people who obsess over their health and food are not confined to the vegan population. I think it's just human nature at times to be obsessive no matter what. I totally agree with your view on the world though, and it's for the reasons you stated and many more that life depresses me, and has me feeling more and more that it's all so pointless.

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    Default Re: 'Orthorexia'

    Well, I liked the 'carnibore' title for people who are putting their health at risk through a disregard to plenty of evidence against eating meat. Could that be classed as pathalogical too? ;-)

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    Ex-admin Korn's Avatar
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    Default Re: 'Orthorexia'

    Slightly off topic, but I think the most common eating disorder is 'ignorexia': an obsession with ignoring facts, feelings, animals, the environment and all other reason to make one's own decision about what to eat and what not to, as opposed to just follow the patterns of the society and old habits transferred from generation to generation.

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    PygmyGoat
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    Default Re: Orthorexia

    Quote eve View Post
    Reading the threads on this forum, one could be forgiven for thinking that obsessing about food, health, health problems, really are vegan attributes. To be truthful, I've never come across so many people with health problems - real or imagined - as are portrayed here.
    I have to admit that I've had that thought. I hate to seem insensitive but I've often thought, enough with the people who have been vegan for two months declaring that they have some malady! Go see a doctor if you think your sick.

  31. #31
    LittleNellColumbia
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    Default Re: 'Orthorexia'

    Quote sandra View Post
    There should be a term for people who obsess over unhealthy eating! Look at the way omnivores obsess about food, all the books and t.v programmes dedicated to food. It really annoys me when there's food programmes on t.v and they sit there for half an hour discussing a particular 'dish' and how it is presented. It's obscene when there are people starving in the world, that all they worry about is making plates of food with tiny little parcels of this, that and the other in them. That's what I call obsessing about food, but nobody questions that attitude do they?
    You are completlely right Sandra!

    Something I don't wuite understand is why you automatically have an eating disorder just because you know and care about what you put into your body. I mean, I know there is an obvious line where being health concious is concerned and where obsessive begins, but from reading the "orthorexia" description korn posted it would seem that basically what that doctor is saying is if you actually know about what is going into your body and care enough to research or whatever, then you are disordered. And I think every vegan comes under that category! so we all have orthorexia according to the doctor who came up with the orthorexia description.

  32. #32
    LittleNellColumbia
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    Quote Korn View Post
    Slightly off topic, but I think the most common eating disorder is 'ignorexia': an obsession with ignoring facts, feelings, animals, the environment and all other reason to make one's own decision about what to eat and what not to, as opposed to just follow the patterns of the society and old habits transferred from generation to generation.
    very true Korn. But isn't it strange that it's accepted to be ignorant, but if you aren't you're labelled over-obsessive?! What a crazy, crazy world we live in.

  33. #33
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    Quote mango View Post
    Maybe not from a reasonable doctor, but there are a lot of fanatical doctors around, and more importantly it gives anti-vegans yet another nonsensical way to attack vegans.
    Yes but your GP most likely isnt going to say to you that you have orthorexia. The only time you would probably run the risk of being diagnosed w. that disorder is if you went to a treatment center for an eating disorder. GP rarely diagnose anorexia even when its blatant because they are pretty ignorant and clueless - at least in my experience. With me and my pediatrician it was always "okay.. now if you lose one more pound we are going to have to do something..." which was stupid because obviously i did but then went off the school and they knew my history and so i just never went back - its just not a priority a lot of the time. therefore i dont think orthorexia was created as a diagnosis to describe vegetarians and vegans.

    people suffering from eating disorders often have very clear 'fear' foods and 'safe' foods. i think it refers more to the intensely strict set of categories that this creates and the fear that comes from branching outside of it. its more about anxiety and fear. orthorexia would not be about a moral code or ethical acts that go behind food choices. once again the stress here is on anxiety and fear - hence the disorder. people can be underweight by 15% and maybe they train a lot of exercise a lot so they happen to be amenhorric but without the fear of fat and gaining weight they arnt going to get a diagnosis of anorexia. eating disorder diagnosis's are actually fairly difficult to get - they have very strict guidelines. therefore I really wouldnt put orthorexia and veganism as automatically having a correlation and certainly not a causal effect.

    if you really want to talk about orthorexia and the way it is diagnosed - why not ask the new member on the forum (Jani I think it is?) that is a self-proclaimed orthorexia (not sure whether profesionally diagnosed or not). they would know far more about the diagnosis than most of us.
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  34. #34
    LittleNellColumbia
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    Quote Wishin986 View Post
    people suffering from eating disorders often have very clear 'fear' foods and 'safe' foods. i think it refers more to the intensely strict set of categories that this creates and the fear that comes from branching outside of it. its more about anxiety and fear. orthorexia would not be about a moral code or ethical acts that go behind food choices. once again the stress here is on anxiety and fear - hence the disorder. people can be underweight by 15% and maybe they train a lot of exercise a lot so they happen to be amenhorric but without the fear of fat and gaining weight they arnt going to get a diagnosis of anorexia. eating disorder diagnosis's are actually fairly difficult to get - they have very strict guidelines. therefore I really wouldnt put orthorexia and veganism as automatically having a correlation and certainly not a causal effect.
    yeh I agree with you wishin, there is an obvious difference between someone who cares about the food they put into them, and people with serious fear of food. But just from looking at how orthorexia is described, its pretty clear that anyone who give a damn could be categorized as having it. But when it comes to beign dianosed, you're right, there would be an obvious diff.

  35. #35
    baffled harpy's Avatar
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    Default Re: 'Orthorexia'

    For what it's worth there was an article in the Guardian (British newspaper) about orthorexia yesterday:

    http://environment.guardian.co.uk/fo...891793,00.html

  36. #36

    Default Re: 'Orthorexia'

    well, of course not all (or anywhere near all ) vegans are orthorexic! but of course you will find a few more between vegans, than any other place. i mean, when i suffered from anorexia, i were active at some pro-ana websides, who actually incuraged people to become vegans - cause it's harder to get a binge, you stay more fit and skinny, and so on - you all know the benefits from becoming vegan.
    and fact is, that a lot of people on this forum have suffered from either anorexia, bulimia or binge-eating, or maybe even orthorexia. maybe it's because we all need some comforting - and find it here? i mean, my doctor was very clear when she stated that i'd probably have to stop being vegan, if i wanted to fight my ED, and that seems to be everyones concern; "she doesn't eat anything from animals, it's probably cause she's obsessive about it". I mean, if that's what you get smashed into your head everyday, then you have a stronger needing for a forum like this, where people don't see your AR and veganism as a disease, and support your choice as the right one.

  37. #37
    PygmyGoat
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    Default Re: 'Orthorexia'

    I just don't get the link between Veganism and Anorexia . I find it all too easy to have all out binges on Vegan food .

  38. #38
    Ex-admin Korn's Avatar
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    Default Re: 'Orthorexia'

    For what it's worth there was an article in the Guardian (British newspaper) about orthorexia yesterday.
    From what I have seen about orthorexia, and the questions used in the diagnosis, it's a non-phenomenon. Neurosis is an existing phenomenon, ED is, various food obsessions do exists, but to classify something as a disease based on the question they use has nothing to do with science or serious medicine at all. The definition/diagnosis must have been invented by someone who for some reason have a problem with the growing number of people interested in health food, vegan food etc., and maybe starting this thread was a mistake, because we're helping the people behind that term to make it more known. "Do you skip foods you once enjoyed in order to eat the "right" foods?" This kind of 'scientific' diagnosis doesn't really deserve attention, does it?

  39. #39
    PygmyGoat
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    I think it's ridiculous!!!. Given those definitions then every one of us has eating 'problems' .

  40. #40
    PygmyGoat
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    Quote John View Post
    I have to admit that I've had that thought. I hate to seem insensitive but I've often thought, enough with the people who have been vegan for two months declaring that they have some malady! Go see a doctor if you think your sick.

    Well, yes, that is annoying, especially when people seem to be infering that it's Veganism 'making' them ill .

  41. #41
    Ex-admin Korn's Avatar
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    Default Re: 'Orthorexia'

    I've also recently noticed that the term orthorexia has been mentioned several times and is being pushed on beyondveg (the #1 anti-vegan site on internet). Some people think that a 'balanced diet' is a mix between a vegan/vegetarian diet on one side and what others eat on the other, and that a desire to eat a 'pure' plant based diet could be an 'obsession'/neurosis in itself. The definition of what is obsessive and what is not is 'in the eye of the beholder', and while vegans feel that non-vegans may be obsessed with old habits, animal products and status quo, many non-vegans may think that we are neurotically obsessive when it comes to not wanting to have animals on our plates. The term orthorexia can by it's definition/diagnoses only cause harm, because according to it, all vegans or even vegetarians suffre from it. It may have been created by someone close to beyondveg or someone with a similar ideology as a way to make people into heath food or veg*nism seem obsessive and neurotic.

    When talking about balance vs. obsession/disease, it's all about where the point of balance is. A person who for some reason don't smoke, don't smoke occasionally just to be 'in balance' between a smoking and a non-smoking lifestyle. A non-violent father doesn't hit his kids now and then not to be described as 'obsessed' with non-violence. We don't want to put poison into water, air or soil not categorized as being obsessed with protecting nature. A vegan won't eat animal products to avoid being labeled as extreme. A person who are all for eating organic may eat non-organix food now and then, but he won't do it to avid being called someone who is obsessed with a pure diet. And so on...

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