DIY punk scene and veganism

[Tray]

I'm just curious to know if there's someone who is in the diy punk scene, is a squatter, an anarchic or a freegan. It's just because i was thinking that most of the vegans I know are part of the diy hardcore/crust punk scene. So is there anybody in it?

[nervine]

I'm into punk and hardcore and all that. I'd like to squat, see how it is.

[XCarol]

Yeah, I'm into hardcore and crust, but I've yet to squat or anything like that. I give props for anyone who does though.

[xpaldenx]

i've squatted, i'm into the punk / DIY scene.

[Tigerlily]

I'm as punk as plate of spaghetti.

[Troutina]

I like punk music.
I have never nor would I ever like to squat.

[nervine]

I found a house that's boarded up in Aylesbury on Bicester Road near Meadowcroft that could serve as a squat.

[firejuggler]

I can assure you speaking as a person who had some friends squatting because at that point in their life they had no choice.
Their is nothing glamorous, romantic or idealistic about having to make do in a squat. It is very dangerous 24/7 you run the risk of robbery, theft, abuse, being burnt down. Trying to run the services can put you at risk of legionnaires disease, electrocution, carbon monoxide poisoning.

Depression often sets in quick when people have to make do in squats, your health will and immune system will suffer in no uncertain terms.

This may have been part of the big punk movement at the time of high unemployment and serious housing issues, you will find now more of the old punks have got together and bought a decent house and work as a co-operative all contributing towards the running costs and living in much better conditions.

I am not trying to put you off, but like I said I have had friends who had to live in this situation for many years, they have said if their was any other way than squatting at that time in their life they would have in no uncertain terms done it.

The DIY punk scene is very good and the grass roots of it are brilliant but some aspects of it like many things have its down sides. Squat gigs are brilliant though, as long as they are run well and safe, I have been to a few to a few including some put on by conflict in the late 80s early 90s and they were fantastic.

I would say if anything you would be better getting a co-operative / collective together regarding accommodation, it is far more rewarding and far better for your own welfare and well-being not living looking over your shoulder.

Squatting should be a last resort not a way of life.

Good luck and best wishes

[SandraD]

Something is just off to me when people refer to any music of today as punk. Punk to me was the late 70s/very early 80s. It was a time and rebellion that cannot be replicated today. All the alleged "punk" music today sounds the same and it's hard to decipher one song from the next. It lacks the rawness of real punk. Why squat if you don't have to? That's like taking a dump in the street when you have access to a toilet. I guess immature people think it's cool though. I thought that kind of stuff was when I was a teenager too. Thank goodness for growing up!
What is DIY anyway? Do-It-Yourself? That's what DIY means if you've ever worked at Home Depot. I think people that think they are punk now are just idolizing punks of yesteryear. They need to be more original and come up with a new word. Emo is a pretty lame word to describe a certain genre, after all, isn't nearly ALL music emotional?

[niallmc]

Punk, to me is an attitude, at this stage - not really a sound of music. the evens are punk, chumbawamba are punk, nofx are punk - all completely different sounding

[SandraD]

Considering my mom likes chumbawumba and has their cd, I don't see how that can be punk. My mom hates punk. However she can only "tolerate the Ramones"

[niallmc]

Considering my mom likes chumbawumba and has their cd, I don't see how that can be punk. My mom hates punk. However she can only "tolerate the Ramones"

not sure what you mean. what i mean is that punk is an attitude more than a sound to me. it was chumbawaba who turned me onto many aspects of animal rights in 1986

[Tray]

Snaffler: If you have to squat it's not by choice but for necessity.

SandraD why are you so aggressive? Take no offence but you say in your profile that you're open minded but with your reaction you prove to be prejuged.
Are you sure you know what you're talking about?

niallmc: i don't agree with you concept of punk but everyone has is point of view about that and probably nobody's right. But here in this post i'm referring about the "underground" diy political punk scene and not to mainstream commercial punk

[Smoothie]

I'm in the underground-diy-political-anarchist-autonomous-vegan-punk-scene here in denmark. to me, punk is everything around me, the way I see life, the things me and all of my friends create with our own hands, our vegan soupkitchen, our punk, crust and hardcore shows, our way of doings things as we like to do them, and to do them ourselves. to me punk is my friends band playing for thirty beers, and a vegan meal, at a support-koncert. to me, punk is how i live my daily life.

and no-one can convince me otherwise.

[niallmc]

Smoothie, I couoodn't agree more.

Tray, I think you got me wrong, my view of mainstream commercial punk is stuff like Green Day or Bad Religion. DIY/underground bands are those who put out their own records and stick to independendent ways. My involvement now in the DIY punk scene is more as a participant, i used to be a lot more active - put on gigs in Dublin and was involved in a gig collective, but since my third child was born i've been too busy sleeping!!!

[SandraD]

Snaffler: If you have to squat it's not by choice but for necessity.

SandraD why are you so aggressive? Take no offence but you say in your profile that you're open minded but with your reaction you prove to be prejuged.
Are you sure you know what you're talking about?

niallmc: i don't agree with you concept of punk but everyone has is point of view about that and probably nobody's right. But here in this post i'm referring about the "underground" diy political punk scene and not to mainstream commercial punk

Aggressive?! More like depressed from reading such things. I was expressing my opinion. If I were being aggressive you'd KNOW. I've just never been big on people labeling themselves with an adjective. It's kind of degrading to oneself. (Ex: "I am such a simple person I can sum myself up with one word" words: prep, goth, punk.....why can't we just be people?). It just depresses me when I see people referring to themselves like that. It's one thing to label inanimate things like music, but people?
If anything I am being open minded by not restricting people to labels and those that label are not being open minded.
Just some food for thought....animal-product-free food that is!

[Tray]

sandraD: I think that here nobody did label him/herself, I simply asked if there was someone in the diy punk scene, not if there are punks, there is a substantial difference. And talking about the diy punk scene we are not talking only about music but about a political movement.
I agree in part with you about the labelling, we are much more than labels and often these labels are used to create differences and division between peoples but on the other hand it can simplifiy the things.
If you say that you're vegan is way much simpler than saying that you don't eat eggs, milk, meat, honey because there are many people who know what a vegan is.

niallmc: sorry for having got you wrong but i thought you didn't understand what we were talking about here

[niallmc]

niallmc: sorry for having got you wrong but i thought you didn't understand what we were talking about here

tray check out www.thumped.com/hope and you'll see I kind of know what you're talking about..

oh and you could always have a look at my book too - Please Feed Me, out on Softskull Press

[Tray]

hey niallmc there's no need to prove nothing, i (wrongly) assumed from your first post that you believed we were talking about mainstream punk that's the cause of my first reply. I think then there has been a misunderstanding caused by my bad english

[Smoothie]

tray check out www.thumped.com/hope and you'll see I kind of know what you're talking about..

oh and you could always have a look at my book too - Please Feed Me, out on Softskull Press

hahaha. i have that book! it's great

[SandraD]

sandraD: I think that here nobody did label him/herself, I simply asked if there was someone in the diy punk scene, not if there are punks, there is a substantial difference. And talking about the diy punk scene we are not talking only about music but about a political movement.
I agree in part with you about the labelling, we are much more than labels and often these labels are used to create differences and division between peoples but on the other hand it can simplifiy the things.
If you say that you're vegan is way much simpler than saying that you don't eat eggs, milk, meat, honey because there are many people who know what a vegan is.

niallmc: sorry for having got you wrong but i thought you didn't understand what we were talking about here

I did ask what DIY was and no one answered. Labelling with vegan is okay, because after all it is a noun, I was referring to labelling with adjectives.

[Smoothie]

well, DIY is a political underground punk-movement, based on activism, social anarchism/anarchosyndicalism and Do It Yourself - the knowledge, that you don't have to know what you're doing, just do it, and eventually, you'll get good at it it's the way things are in most "serious" punk scenes, nowadays. there is this DIY-network, that's all over the world, making it possible to make cheep or free koncerts, with bands from places like, asia, the us, eastern europe and so, here in denmark, and the other way around. it's really nice, to know that you can do everything yourself. besides from that, most social centres/squats/punk- or anarchist collectives and such, have free or very cheep vegan soupkitchens, infocafés, free computercafés, and whatever people take initiative to do..

[Tray]

SandraD, i really don't understand what you're trying to say.. you say labelling with nouns is ok but labelling with adjectives is not ok, so if I say i'm a punk or i'm a vegan i'm using nouns so it's ok, and if i say my vegan punk friend it's an adjective and it's not ok? I really can't get what you're trying to say.
About DIY I agree with smoothie also if I think that there are also other things that need to be said: DIY is also an alternative to the capitalist commercial system and a way of distribution of music, documentations, material and so on around all the world thanks to its network. If you need something you simply produce it in the scene so you don't have to ask major labels to sell your music and you can avoid their greed.

[SandraD]

IMO-- punk, goth, prep, hippy and so forth are adjectives. They generally describe the appearance of a person. That's why I don't like them.
Vegan doesn't describe appearance, hence a noun. It's not really labelling, it's letting others know what foods you eat.

[Tray]

SandraD from what I know punk can be a noun and also an adjective, like vegan but I don't think this is important. The important thing is: vegan let other know what do you eat and punk let the other know that you have a different way of thinking, that you have different values and different beliefs.
How do you think does look like a punk? In the DIY scene you can't say that one is a punk from the look because there is all sort of different people and differencies are our strenght.
Probably you're too much tied from the classical punk appearence spread by massmedias.

[Tray]

"DIY stands for "do it yourself", as opposed to paying a professional to do it for you. DIY once just referred to hardware stores in Britain that supplied amateur repair people with tools. Today the term can indicate "doing" anything from healthcare to interior design, from publication to electronics. The DIY ethic is loosely tied to Punk ideology and various anticonsumerist movements, in as much as it amounts to a rejection of the idea that one must always purchase the things that one wants or needs from others. DIY questions the uniqueness of the expert's expertise, and promotes the ability of the ordinary person to learn to do more than he or she thought was possible.
The DIY punk ethic can also extend to how any group or individual applies DIY political stances to daily life—especially how they avoid contributing to institutions they see as exploitive. These efforts include converting cars to run on biodiesel or vegetable oil, learning bicycle repair, sewing/repairing/modifying clothing, starting gardens, dumpster diving, etc. To a certain extent, DIY is simply a way of finding ad hoc solutions to problems that are otherwise usually solved with wealth or corporate support.
Crust punk bands have taken on what is known as a DIY ethic: that is, "do it yourself." In this way one can bypass the traditional recording and distribution routes, with material often being made available in exchange for "a blank tape plus self-addressed envelope". The anarcho-punk and crust punk movement also has its own network of zines which disseminate news, ideas, and artwork from the punk community. Again, these are very much 'DIY' affairs, produced in runs of hundreds rather than thousands (in most cases), printed on photocopiers or duplicator machines, and distributed by hand at shows or gatherings. Crust punk has taken this DIY ethic to a farther degree, often refusing to buy any corporate products, screen printing patches and sewing clothing by hand out of found materials, materials specifically bought from other members of the punk community, or local community and small co-ops/companies."

[niallmc]

The DIY punk ethic can also extend to how any group or individual applies DIY political stances to daily life—especially how they avoid contributing to institutions they see as exploitive. Crust punk bands have taken on what is known as a DIY ethic: that is, "do it yourself." In this way one can bypass the traditional recording and distribution routes, with material often being made available in exchange for "a blank tape plus self-addressed envelope". The anarcho-punk and crust punk movement also has its own network of zines which disseminate news, ideas, and artwork from the punk community. Again, these are very much 'DIY' affairs, produced in runs of hundreds rather than thousands (in most cases), printed on photocopiers or duplicator machines, and distributed by hand at shows or gatherings. Crust punk has taken this DIY ethic to a farther degree, often refusing to buy any corporate products, screen printing patches and sewing clothing by hand out of found materials, materials specifically bought from other members of the punk community, or local community and small co-ops/companies."

not just crust punk, which kind of describes a specific sound

[SandraD]

That's what I thought DIY meant but I didn't get it (I'm an ex home depot worker).

Punk to me is johnny rotten types. That is what most people think of when they hear the word. Yes, I know that the punk music revolution of the 70s wanted to change things, but I don't think it's the same things as what you are saying punk means today. Not so sure Sid Vicious gave a hoot about the environment. it is also a word used as a playful insult. It's a derogatory word ex: "Bug off ya dumb punk!" "eh, he's just a punk don't worry about it." kind of like little wimp, dork... My uncle used to call me that when I was a teenager "what have you been up to punk?" Even in movies, people will call the little "loser" guy a punk.

If punk means a group of people that think differently and want to make a difference in the world, perhaps a new word is in order. There is an old stigma attached to punk that probably turns alot of possible recruits off.

[Tray]

That was the first wave of nihilist punk, after that there were some bands who started to take politics in the punk scene like crass and the other anarchopunks bands did. (If you don't know crass: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crass if you want to read something about them)
This is a song that crass wrote about the early punk:
"Yes that's right, punk is dead
It's just another cheap product for the consumers head
Bubblegum rock on plastic transistors
Schoolboy sedition backed by big time promoters
CBS promote the Clash
Ain't for revolution, it's just for cash
Punk became a fashion just like hippy used to be
Ain't got a thing to do with your or me

Movements are systems and systems kill
Movements are expressions of the public will
Punk became a movement cos we all felt lost
Leaders sold out and now we all pay the cost
Punk narcissism was a social napalm
Steve Jones started doing real harm
Preaching revolution, anarchy and change
Sucked from the system that had given him his name

Well I'm tired of staring through shit stained glass
Tired of staring up a superstars arse
I've got an arse and crap and a name
I'm just waiting for my fifteen minutes fame

Steven Jones, you're napalm
If you're so pretty vacant, why do you smarm?
Patti Smith, you're napalm, your write with your hand
But it's Rimbaud's arm

And me, yes, I, do I want to burn?
Is there something I can learn?
Do I need a business man to promote my angle
Can I resist the carrots that fame and fortune dangle
I see the velvet zippies in their bondage gear
The social elite with safetypins in their ear
I watch and understand that it don't mean a thing
The scorpions might attack, but the systems stole the sting
PUNK IS DEAD. PUNK IS DEAD. PUNK IS DEAD"

Today in punk there are different political issues like animal liberation, anti-capitalism, environmentalism, anarchism and a lot of activists of these causes.
The old stigma is the image that the mass medias and the mainstream culture gave us but honestly I don't care too much, the things that counts are actions, not words. We don't need recruits, we're not an army, we're only individuals that are aware of some problematics.
Sandra if you're interested in knowing some good political bands check Crass and seeing that you're from NYC check also nausea that were from your city

[SandraD]

I've heard of crass back when I was in High School, which was almost ten years ago. Didn't like it. A guy I knew in hs was into them. He'd play it at parties sometimes. wonder what all those people are up to these days? Wierd how you lose touch with most people

[LittleNellColumbia]

.

[Smoothie]

i think people just have to face the fact, that punk, as a lot of other things, has developed into being something more defined political, than just trying to provoke people.. things develop, and now punk is not a "no future"-thing, but a "we want to choose our own future"-thing. i think it is a very positive development. and a very nessecary one too. i mean, in most countries, anarchopunk communities is the places that teach the most people about veganism and AR, anti-sexism, anti-racism, anti-fascism. i think that things chance, accordingly to the needs of the time, and the political scales. it IS nessecary that people talk and think about all of these things. it IS important to have the squatted social centres, where you can set up gigs, soupkitchens, political meetings, but also places where abused women can turn to when they have no one else, where kids who gets beaten up by their parents can find someone who actually cares, where homeless people can stay if the bench is too cold. i could continue forever, but my point is, that there is a need for these places, as society isn't capable of taking care of this, as sociesty is a system, a system which is build up around capitalism, and not humanism. this is very disguistingly proved, just by looking at how animals are treaten, and not ONE government has done anything to change it,. fact is democracy has failed, it's been bought by rich companies and we're all tought that this IS how democracy is supposed to be. but it's not. this is a world, where the money-holders decide the rules, and if you don't play by their rules, they will shut you up, they will call you a criminal and lock you up; if a poor person steals food, this is "wrong" - I say it's not! it is wrong, that in this world, people can starve, and no one does a thing about it. it is wrong, that it is legal to use all kind of cemicals in our daily surroundings, like food, clothing and so on. it is wrong, that women get abused by men and feel like it's their fault, cause they don't deserve better, and it's wrong that men get abused by men, and can't tell anyone about it, cause it's shameful, it is wrong that kids get abused by adults, and the adults use their power to make the child shut up, it is wrong that not-white people is seen as criminals and losers, 'cause thats not the truth. how should things be different, if we don't change it? WE HAVE THE POWER TO CHANGE EVERYTHING! we need to do so. we need to change this world, cause otherwise, it's not gonna be here anymore. we make everything bad, pwoplw have been making everything bad, since forever, and it doesn't need to be this way.
i talk about peace, love and anarchy. everything for everyone, love for all. we need to care. this is what punk is now. this is what punk needs to be. otherwise, things will not get better. we need to change the world. no one will do this for us.

Anarchy and equality and love

/Ditte

[Smoothie]

i would like to add that this is something we all should care about on some level - this is things that we all have a responsibility to try and change; not only by reaction, such as soupkitchens, gigs, demonstrations and such; the way to act against it s just as much by living it, caring, building up collectives, changing it with the work we are forced to do. when you have to work to get the money to survive, you might just as well try and work places where this is implicit, where there is as little supression and non-caring going on; we have to share what we have to make things better; reuse, rebuild and recycle; make things better in any way you can imagine, we all can do some.

[aubergine]

we have to share what we have to make things better; reuse, rebuild and recycle; make things better in any way you can imagine, we all can do some.

Ver well said

[Smoothie]

well, i'm glad you agree, as i do believe it.

[Russ]

I've been into punk of some form or another for pretty much most of my life now. I love punk, I love hardcore.

I squatted for a brief time.

Not to denigrate anyone's involvement in a scene, being that I recognise how influential and positive (generally underground, DIY) music scenes can be, I have never felt the urge or drive to belong to one.

[sprite1986]

I think being part of a 'scene' in very many cases just means joining another glorified clique, but at the same time, I guess it makes more sense to associate with people who you have more in common with in terms of outlook on life and ideals.

I helped out at a local social centre squat (whilst it was still open.. ) and the positivity and drive of the people there was completely awe-inspiring, and I have never met a bunch of people who I admire more than those who selflessly offer their time and energy to creating something that they will recieve no financial rewards etc. etc. for. I agree with Smoothie and think the whole DIY punk scene is incredibly important in (cliche..) helping to improve society, even just on a small scale, as well as fuelling individuals belief in theirselves that they have the ability to change/contribute to something which doesn't involve having to believe they have to buy into a certain way of life to be cool/popular/fashionable/whatever.

I can't really remember the point of this. But ..I think punk and its ethics are very much alive, especially considering the number of people putting on their own events/demos/gigs/producing zines. Plus one thing that makes me really really happy is the fact that at punk/hc gigs, if someone falls over, everyone will go and rush to help them up and people look out for eachother, which in my experience, doesn't happen so much at other events.


Getting slightly back on track, and looking at other peoples posts... I don't think there is any need to call yourself 'punk' per se, but everyone has a need to pigeon-hole stuff. Why do we feel the need to call ourselves 'vegan' might be along the same sort of lines.

I'm rambling, so I shall stop.

[Charlotte]

I'm on the edge of the DIY punk scene I guess... not that involved (I tend to go to to their events rather than get involved in putting them on) but it definitely is a positive thing and creates a sense of community. I haven't squatted but would like to live in cooperative/co owned accomodation. Going to gigs, parties etc where you can get cheap food you know is vegan is great (its pretty much the only time I eat out).

RIP the Matilda

[Tray]

I agree with Smoothie and think the whole DIY punk scene is incredibly important in (cliche..) helping to improve society, even just on a small scale, as well as fuelling individuals belief in theirselves that they have the ability to change/contribute to something which doesn't involve having to believe they have to buy into a certain way of life to be cool/popular/fashionable/whatever.

Honestly I don't agree too much with that, the objective of the diy punk scene is to emancipate from society and to create an alternative to it.

[Smoothie]

depends on what you're trying to achieve. i do agree on you long-term, but to make a difference for some people now, you have to act according to the needs.
but of course you can't heal a sick society, you need to make a new one, which is not fucked up

[Charlotte]

depends on what you're trying to achieve. i do agree on you long-term, but to make a difference for some people now, you have to act according to the needs.
but of course you can't heal a sick society, you need to make a new one, which is not fucked up

Yes, I don't see that the DIY punk scene can create a new society (I have too little faith in human nature to be an anarchist or other political revolutionary) but it creates an alternative for those who despise the society they live in and turns anger and sadness into positive energy (I sound like a massive hippy there).

I don't think you can emancipate a society that has no wish to be emancipated. You can just try and emancipate yourself from it.

[Russ]

but of course you can't heal a sick society, you need to make a new one, which is not fucked up

That's pretty ridiculous. By that argument we can't fix any of society's problems so shouldn't even bother protesting against existing injustices, but just leave things be to degenerate further. Who are you helping by doing that?

[Smoothie]

i am helping more people than most other. i give my life to making the world a better place. but i stopped trying to make things better, from how they are now. i believe in doing something completely different instead. we need that. "democracy" has failed just as badly as dictatorship and monarchy (which is basically the same..)

[Russ]

One thing I find unfortunate about the punk scene in general is that the apparent urge of many punks to be as outrageous and radical as possible gets too often confused with their otherwise-rational political motivations.

To say that democracy is essentially the same as a dictatorship is pretty short-sighted. I know, I know, we want to argue that under democracy, all decisions are out of our hands and our consent is manufactured by the bourgeois class and their media dogs, and all capitalism has done for us is to create racial tensions, poverty and war etc, or some similar Marxist-anarchist-Chomskyite sentiments concerning society's ills.

But to compare liberal democracies with dictatorships is crazy. Under liberal democracy, the majority of people do enjoy many freedoms that would not be permitted under a dictatorship. That is because, despite all of its failings (and there are many of them), there is a degree of representation in (what is incorrectly called) capitalist democracies. It's things we take so much for granted; I can wake up, drink a beer, take the train into Central, march on a demo, come home without having to have told anyone where I was, surf the net without restrictions on what sites I can visit, drink another beer, read whatever books I want or pamphlets I've picked up, write a poisonous article criticising my government's foreign policy, and by the end of the day I haven't been arrested, imprisoned, beaten, tortured or drafted into the army.

I would say that the quality of life for the vast majority of people living in a democracy is remarkably better than the quality of life for most living under a dictatorship. Simply put, we have more freedoms, and I know that's an argument that right-wing ideologue boneheads love to put across as a case for Western societies being "more superior" to the less economically developed world (like, as if public opinion is harmonious with the interests of the privileged elite who hoard resources). But the fact of the matter is that people, by and large, are better off (i.e. they can fulfil their interests more easily) living under a democracy than under a dictatorship, living under a society organised along capitalist lines rather than along feudal lines, or the "communist" states of the 20th century.

That's not to say that, on the whole, our forms of capitalism and democracy are desirable as an end goal for humanity (what we refer to as "democracy" is more like a middle ground between two systems that incorporates elements of real democracy and dictatorship, while remaining neither) but that's really a separate argument that I've talked about in other threads.

The comparison of democracy to monarchy doesn't make much sense, cause whereas democracy and dictatorship are societal models, monarchy can exist independent of any specific model (though cannot exist in some models, think anarchism, socialism). You can have monarchy in a democracy or a dictatorship, or a totalitarian state. Monarchy simply reflects the hierarchy that imbues capitalist and pre-capitalist societies, regardless of their specific structure. In many cases in Western societies, monarchs now have extremely limited power, and have become remnants of old orders, now replaced by the bourgeoisie.

Also (and yes I'm aware of how long and boring this is, and this is why you should never bring up anything remotely political when you talk to me ), I'm not sure it's right to say that dictatorships, monarchies and democracies have "failed". Sure, we know they're not particularly good for most people (democracies being vastly preferable to the two former), but there are how many thriving democracies in existence today? Not to mention all the dictatorships and monarchies that are still around (for monarchies that have retained power, I'm thinking more Eastern). None of them seem to have failed from the position of the cultural and societal managers in their respective societies.

[aubergine]

Very well explained Russ. Not boring in the slightest either.

[Charlotte]

Good reply Russ, I take it you are a politics student? 'Democracy' isn't one system of government and its various forms have a lot of failings (as all systems do). I don't like the British system of government (which incidently was not designed with democracy as we would know it in mind) but its a lot better than living under a dictator or absolute monarch.

[Smoothie]

i didn't say that dictatorship and democracy was the same thing, i said democracy has failed as bad as dictatorship in my opinion, and that monarchy and dictatorship is basically the same. sorry if i didn't make that clear in the last post.

[Russ]

It's okay. Maybe I misread. I tend to go off on long rambling posts into tangents about politics, but I'll avoid doing that now.

Monarchy and dictatorship aren't basically the same though. Monarchy can exist outside of a dictatorship, in a liberal democracy (such as the UK) and dictatorships can exist without a monarchy.

Dictatorship is a societal model, whereas monarchy is not.

[sprite1986]

I don't know. There is nothing wrong theoretically with democracy (i'm no politics student though..), but there are instances where applied democracy doesn't work as well as initially intended, but that's down to human nature, and wanting to improve your own success etc.etc. As I see it, democracy is on the whole one HELL of a better system than autocracy/dictatorial regime etc.

But to be honest, that's not really what this thread is about. In my mind, the DIY punk scene exists as an alternative to mainstream life, where the people tend to have different values to many of the general population, and it provides a sense of community, and a real sense of independence, in that if you want something done/to change, why not have a go yourself, instead of having to rely on big business. Which, I think, is fantastic.

[Charlotte]

i didn't say that dictatorship and democracy was the same thing, i said democracy has failed as bad as dictatorship in my opinion, and that monarchy and dictatorship is basically the same. sorry if i didn't make that clear in the last post.

Why do you think this?

Sorry I enjoy debating political issues

[Smoothie]

i think so, cause i realised at some point, that politicians only care about one thing; themselves. they are not here for the people, they are here cause that gives them the two things people want the most; money and power.

that's how things are, but of course they don't want us to know that.

believe me, every time we hear something on the radio or tv, it's been decided long before we knew that there was gonna be an issue of it.
that's not working democracy; that's very similar to dictatorship. deciding things, without wanting the people to get involved, cause then there too much trouble.

[Russ]

i think so, cause i realised at some point, that politicians only care about one thing; themselves. they are not here for the people, they are here cause that gives them the two things people want the most; money and power.

that's how things are, but of course they don't want us to know that.

believe me, every time we hear something on the radio or tv, it's been decided long before we knew that there was gonna be an issue of it.
that's not working democracy; that's very similar to dictatorship. deciding things, without wanting the people to get involved, cause then there too much trouble.

Don't get me wrong - I think you're right about a lot of things. But the real money and power does not lie with politicians. It lies with big business. By your model, how could this be, if everything is decided by politicians in a dictatorial fashion?

This just needs amending a bit, politicians are merely representatives; not of the people, but of capital.

I started writing out an analogy about parliament but it was dumb so I deleted it.

People try to influence parliaments, and generally fail because alone they lack the resources (capital) to change anything. Business has abundant capital to shape society in whatever ways it wants; that is the dictatorial element of most Western societies. Democracy is not functioning, I think that's pretty obvious to any serious analyst.
At the same time the business class will influence groups of people (through the media for example) which way to think, which way to vote, what to eat, what to wear etc. Think about the Republican vote in America (and I'm not saying the Democrats are better in any meaningful sense, but the Republicans are I think slightly more committed to business interests .. slightly). One group of people who turn out to vote Republican en masse are rural people in the South ... (yes that's a generalisation) .. and yet the Republican party, the most organically tied in to business party in American history is systematically destroying rural communities from the outside. What's wrong with this picture? People aren't thinking, that's what. They aren't analysing. It's more Christian to be Republican, and you know, parts of America are pretty fundamentalist. Never mind the actual agenda of the party.

There I went, off on a tangent, so maybe you shouldn't even read that last paragraph, but I guess you already did.
Sorry if any of this is incoherent, I am listening to Rancid and Tim Armstrong can barely talk let alone sing.

[sprite1986]

I like how you tied that to 'punk' at the end..


Well thats kind of back to the whole issue with EVERYTHING, people are on the whole, apathetic. It's just the case that big business have the financial influence to sway opinions ("money makes the world go round.."), which leads to the age-old corruption/underhand deals/unfair competition etc. And people just go along for the convenience of it.

Unfortunately, a lot of politicians have vested interests in certain businesses gaining power, or certain policies being made which act to curry favour/increase shares etc. I remember aaaaaggess ago, that there was some protected forest (might have been Maine, might have been Alaska, who knows) which was placed under a conservation order during Clinton's reign. Then along comes a massive logging company, a few votes here and there, a little cash in hand jobby... and BAM! Bush gets elected and opens it up for logging!

Again, a tangent.

But I think my point is in general agreement to what has been posted before, it's one of those chicken-and-the-egg situations.

What comes first/who is the guilty party?

** Big business has monopoly over market, and huge power to undercut other similar companies

** Consumers buy these products, thus increasing the profit and power of said big business

** Consumers vote party x into power

** Members of Party x have shares/vested interest in big business. Help to change policy in their favour.

** Consumers apathetic, carry on voting and supporting (or not even supporting, but still voting for) Party x

** Party x still in power and in league with big business.

** Consumers win out in a way as they get cheaper products.services, but then again less choice

** Consumers become disallusioned

** And angry.

** They turn to DIY stuff, HOORAY BACK ON TOPIC.


Right, I haven't read any of that through, so apologies if it's a load of rubbish.

[Smoothie]

i agree a lot about the big companies having waaaay too much to say, in the political scene.. well.. EVERYWHERE. that's why we're all gonna die, from the world going under. why should the politicians care about environmental issues, when they can get paid A LOT to shut up?


that's what i really hate. cause it's stupid.

i think that a lot of dictators were puppets for someone else, too.. but maybe that's just me being paranoid.

[Smoothie]

the thing about monarchy: that depends.. some places the king have some serious things to say in politics. i know that's not how it is in the uk, or, here in denmark, but just think about a lot of the states in africa..

[Russ]

But I think my point is in general agreement to what has been posted before, it's one of those chicken-and-the-egg situations.

What comes first/who is the guilty party?

My perception is that it's the result of historical processes, rather than there being one specific guilty party who has masterminded everything / orchestrated society to function in this way.

Out of the old feudal order rose the bourgeoisie whose interests were absolutely in hierarchy and also (in theory) in the free market, affording the (still subjugated) people more rights under the capitalist order ... now we become automatons working for a wage to live, but this opens up avenues to emancipate ourselves, individually (one can rise through the system and live comfortably) and as a whole (the 8 hour working day, or the founding of parliamentary democracy which was a concession to the Chartists as an alternative to granting workers ACTUAL democracy).

With the feudal order destroyed and monarchies practically dead (at least in terms of their power, in the West) the bourgeoisie was free to shape the market in their own interests and not as in the theories of Adam Smith which would be much more libertarian than what we see today, more like economic anarchy (which is vastly removed from political and social anarchy). I believe that actual, genuine capitalism was tried once in Britain (I'm sure I read this in Chomsky's Profit Over People, can't remember when this happened thought) and pretty much instantly abandoned because it just led to decline.

[Russ]

But my point is that the bourgeoisie alone are not to blame for our current state of affairs, to a large extent it was a logical historical process that they would rise to exploit the workers but they did not mastermind the entire scheme of how society should be laid out.