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Thread: low sperm count

  1. #1
    SandraD's Avatar
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    Default low sperm count

    I was reading that page about soy being bad, that crossbow posted. It got me to thinking about something I heard quite sometime ago. Well first of all, part of the soy article said that men have lower sperm counts when they drink soy. I don't know if this is true or not, I HOPE not! But a long time ago, I heard that men are getting lower sperm counts because of women on birth control. That the estrogens/progesterones and whatever else comes out in urine. Eventually makes it's way into the drinking water (process of transpiration and all). Even though water is cleaned, these hormones linger. I also do not know how true this is, I can't even remember where I heard/read it. Anyone know about this? Or the soy theory?
    "We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." Kant

  2. #2
    vegan pizza! thecatspajamas1's Avatar
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    Default Re: low sperm count

    I haven't heard about the low sperm count, but I have heard about hormones from women taking birth control getting into the water and fish being deformed from it.
    I eat nutritional yeast by the spoonful.

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    frugivorous aubergine's Avatar
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    Default Re: low sperm count

    Quote SandraD View Post
    I was reading that page about soy being bad, that crossbow posted.
    That'll be the same crossbow that posted they were giving up Veganism because they'd found a 'good' dairy farm!

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    Default Re: low sperm count

    i have some soy links.. ill dig them up and post them for you. its hard to find real info on soy b/c a lot of it is indeed put out by meat and dairy ppl sadly. so i at first denied the ehalth hazards of soy simply b/c i thought the meat and dairy industry were trying to get ppl to come back to them. but then i did my own research and learned alot. im pretty much at the conclusion of "too much of ANY 'ggod' thing is a bad thing" and my babies dont NEED soy to survive so they will be kept away from it as long as possible... ok sorry i went way off topic huh? sorry about that.
    i have heard something similar to what you were saying about birth control though,too.
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    CATWOMAN sandra's Avatar
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    Default Re: low sperm count

    Yes, like Sam says I wouldn't worry too much about what Crossbow had to say.

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    Default Re: low sperm count

    Well, a couple i know had been trying to concieve for about 6 years and it was to do with the mans low sperm count, after 2 unsuccessful IVF attempts they went to an alternative practitioner and he adviced them on a new diet - part of which was cutting out all dairy and i know they replaced it with soy and rice milk and other soy alternatives and within 6mths they got pregnant!! It truly was a miracle!!

    I actually found this really reasurring as i had been a bit worried about the addition of soy stuff to our diets when i went vegan!

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    Default Re: low sperm count

    I learned from somewhere that soya was 'high' in eostrogenic substances [that act like eostrogen].
    Does eostrogen affect sperm count?
    Many bio molecules are denatured [ twisted and scrambled ] by heat, and then face digestion when taken orally.
    I would search on dose, and the state of proposed active agent after various processing treatments.
    I also learned that the more body fat a man has, the more eostrogen he has 'stored' there.
    Problematic is waking someone whom pretends to sleep.

  8. #8

    Default Re: low sperm count

    i think mostly, mens low sperm count, is from all of the plastic - which have loads and loads of hormones! especially eostrogen and the alikes. I really don't think it has anything to do with soy - then people shouldn't drink milk and eat meat anyway, since most animals are fed soy - A LOT OF IT.

  9. #9

    Default Re: low sperm count

    We were on multiple forms of birth control, and we still couldn't avoid getting pregnant.

    That's from two vegans who eat lots of soy.

    If you want to get pregnant, go vegan. If you want to be sterile, go omnivore. (Ok, hyperbole, but the only sterile people I know are omnivores, and all the vegans happen to be too fertile for their own good)
    context is everything

  10. #10
    muxu bero bat! gogs67's Avatar
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    Default Re: low sperm count

    CHICAGO (Reuters) - Eating a half serving a day of soy-based foods could be enough to significantly lower a man's sperm count, U.S. researchers said on Wednesday.

    The study is the largest in humans to look at the relationship between semen quality and a plant form of the female sex hormone estrogen known as phytoestrogen, which is plentiful in soy-rich foods.

    "What we found was men that consume the highest amounts of soy foods in this study had a lower sperm concentration compared to those who did not consume soy foods," said Dr. Jorge Chavarro of the Harvard School of Public Health in Boston, whose study appears in the journal Human Reproduction.

    http://uk.news.yahoo.com/rtrs/200807...y-011ccfa.html
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  11. #11
    seitan
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    Default Re: low sperm count

    i hope this is true, and that more people start eating soya!!!

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    Default Re: low sperm count

    ^^ Yeah thats what I was thinking too
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    seitan
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    Quote Maisiepaisie View Post
    ^^ Yeah thats what I was thinking too
    back at ya

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    Default Re: low sperm count

    A lot of meat products and other processed omnivore foods have soy in them, so this is certainly not a drawback of a vegan diet by any stretch. Fast food and a lot of the garbage that most Americans eat (Lean Cuisine and other abominations) is loaded with soy because it's cheaper (esp the genetically modified crops), making it a cost-effective filler.

    Also, no one seemed to be screaming about soy until it started cutting into profits for the dairy industry...

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    Default Re: low sperm count

    While i think the world would be a better place without so many people reproducing i dont think infertility is something to rejoice about. I believe people shouldnt have endless amounts of children but be able to at least have one if they want to that is. So many couples got through so much heartache trying to conceive, i just think it is sad.

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    muxu bero bat! gogs67's Avatar
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    Default Re: low sperm count

    Quote puffin View Post
    While i think the world would be a better place without so many people reproducing i dont think infertility is something to rejoice about. I believe people shouldnt have endless amounts of children but be able to at least have one if they want to that is. So many couples got through so much heartache trying to conceive, i just think it is sad.
    I would think this 'story' needs a bit more research. The part where a high soya intake AND obesity produces a low sperm count may be the most accurate part.
    Just look at China over the centuries, a very high soy intake, low obesity and high childbirth rates!
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  17. #17
    seitan
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    Quote puffin View Post
    While i think the world would be a better place without so many people reproducing i dont think infertility is something to rejoice about. I believe people shouldnt have endless amounts of children but be able to at least have one if they want to that is. So many couples got through so much heartache trying to conceive, i just think it is sad.
    the problem for me is, one turns in to 2 or 3, those then have 2 or 3 and it goes on and on until, global warming starts beign an issue as theres too many humans in this world.

    the sad thing is how people feel they have to have kids, they have to conform, that is the sad thing.

  18. #18
    puffin's Avatar
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    Default Re: low sperm count

    I dont think it is conforming, it is a natural desire. I didnt have kids because i felt i was missing out on what someone else had.
    I just think everyone should have the choice, but should be responsible.

  19. #19
    seitan
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    Quote puffin View Post
    I dont think it is conforming, it is a natural desire. I didnt have kids because i felt i was missing out on what someone else had.
    I just think everyone should have the choice, but should be responsible.
    im not gonna get in to a big fight here over this subject, but ithink its quite clear what i think about breeding

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    CATWOMAN sandra's Avatar
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    Default Re: low sperm count

    Quote seitan View Post
    the problem for me is, one turns in to 2 or 3, those then have 2 or 3 and it goes on and on until, global warming starts beign an issue as theres too many humans in this world.

    the sad thing is how people feel they have to have kids, they have to conform, that is the sad thing.
    I don't think having 2 or 3 children is excessive.........maybe more than 3 is too many.
    If I hadn't had my 2 children the world would be less 2 great vegan people!
    My children have been responsible for other people becoming veggie and vegan so I believe they are a positive influence on this world.

    There have been scare stories for decades about the world being overpopulated. I remember being in school and hearing about the population explosion.
    I don't think it's so much to do with how many people there are on the earth but more to do with what way those people are treating the earth.
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    Quote seitan View Post
    im not gonna get in to a big fight here over this subject, but ithink its quite clear what i think about breeding
    *gets gloves on*

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    Default Re: low sperm count

    I heard from a medical programme that [in humans] 'sperm' is more likely to fertilize ova if the male does not 'release' his sperm for about nine days before the impregnation attempt.
    Problematic is waking someone whom pretends to sleep.

  23. #23
    seitan
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    Quote sandra View Post
    I don't think having 2 or 3 children is excessive.........maybe more than 3 is too many.
    If I hadn't had my 2 children the world would be less 2 great vegan people! My children have been responsible for other people becoming veggie and vegan so I believe they are a positive influence on this world.
    thats awesome your kids are vegan, and i hope they stay vegan, because its not definate all kids bougth up vegan wiwl lstay that way. to me, its a risk, a gamble you are taking. id HATE to have had kids, to see one day theyre responsible for animal deaths. that would be MY responsibility.



    Quote sandra View Post
    There have been scare stories for decades about the world being overpopulated. I remember being in school and hearing about the population explosion.
    I don't think it's so much to do with how many people there are on the earth but more to do with what way those people are treating the earth.
    the more people there are, the more the earth is destroyed. even as vegans, we live a footprint whihc is un-acceptable.
    dont forget, im the mysanthrope

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    Default Re: low sperm count

    Quote seitan View Post
    thats awesome your kids are vegan, and i hope they stay vegan, because its not definate all kids bougth up vegan wiwl lstay that way. to me, its a risk, a gamble you are taking. id HATE to have had kids, to see one day theyre responsible for animal deaths. that would be MY responsibility.
    I feel the same Seitan. I'd love to have another kid but that would be my reason not too. I've 2 boys, 1 veggie and one vegan. The veggie one is already dating omnis and wants to have kids someday so its looking like I'll have omni Grandchildren. That will be difficult for me to accept
    The only normal people are the ones you don't know very well

  25. #25
    seitan
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    Quote Maisiepaisie View Post
    I feel the same Seitan. I'd love to have another kid but that would be my reason not too. I've 2 boys, 1 veggie and one vegan. The veggie one is already dating omnis and wants to have kids someday so its looking like I'll have omni Grandchildren. That will be difficult for me to accept
    i sympathise with you. ive got no kids and ive had the snip, so, child free it is

  26. #26
    Maisiepaisie's Avatar
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    Default Re: low sperm count

    I'm glad I've got the ones I've got though. I'd have been gutted if I couldn't have had kids. I probably shouldn't have wished that on others
    The only normal people are the ones you don't know very well

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    CATWOMAN sandra's Avatar
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    Default Re: low sperm count

    Quote seitan View Post
    thats awesome your kids are vegan, and i hope they stay vegan, because its not definate all kids bougth up vegan wiwl lstay that way. to me, its a risk, a gamble you are taking. id HATE to have had kids, to see one day theyre responsible for animal deaths. that would be MY responsibility.
    I can categorically state that my two children will always be vegan! You see I didn't 'make' them be vegan, they knew it was the right thing to do and became vegan themselves. To eat any animal products or animal flesh would be alien to them. They became vegans for the same reason that you and every other person on this forum are vegans, so that's like saying that 'you' might change your mind one day and not be vegan!
    If they meet non vegan partners they would not change their views, if anything they would change their partners views. My daughter's boyfriend was an omni and has been veggie for 2 years thanks to her, she's working on the vegan bit!
    I think it's all in the way you view children...............to me they are people in the making, just like you and me, if they are brought up with vegan attitudes they will be vegan............but it has to be done with love and respect not forced on them.
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  28. #28
    seitan
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    Quote sandra View Post
    I can categorically state that my two children will always be vegan! You see I didn't 'make' them be vegan, they knew it was the right thing to do and became vegan themselves. To eat any animal products or animal flesh would be alien to them. They became vegans for the same reason that you and every other person on this forum are vegans, so that's like saying that 'you' might change your mind one day and not be vegan!
    If they meet non vegan partners they would not change their views, if anything they would change their partners views. My daughter's boyfriend was an omni and has been veggie for 2 years thanks to her, she's working on the vegan bit!
    I think it's all in the way you view children...............to me they are people in the making, just like you and me, if they are brought up with vegan attitudes they will be vegan............but it has to be done with love and respect not forced on them.
    thats cool, but not every vegan will stay vegan, im sure there have been people on these forums that are no longer vegan, it happens.

    but as for vegan kids, we have to hope their kids are vegan and so on, all the way down the line, tho even that scares me.
    as ive said before, vegans also contribute to this messed up planet.

  29. #29
    Eager Beaver philfox's Avatar
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    Default Re: low sperm count

    I think these studies are interesting. I know a lot of people in the rat fancy are cutting back on feeding rats soy due to these studies. My personal opinion is that the benefits of soy (anti cancer properties proven in rat studies) out weight possible risks. Plus even us as a vegan + vegetarian couple don't have more than maybe 2 soy items per week, if that. My rats get soy, not as part of their mix, but sometimes get soy milk, a little tofu and sometimes some TVP mince if we are having a chilli. But again, if they get that once a fortnight they are lucky lol.

    Things to keep in mind:
    ~Who are these studies funded by? Do they have a vested interest in discrediting soya products?
    ~Are these soy products in the research GM? Do they have animal hormones in them?
    ~Have they taken into account plant oestrogens aren't the same as human / animal hormones and don't have a 'feminising' effect?
    ~Have they looked at people in other countries, Japan and China what sorts of soy do they eat there?
    ~Principles of basic nutrition: variety = good, too much of one type of food = bad?

    I think scaremongering about soy is mainly a combination of using GM soy in research, people with possible health problems as their soy group testers and a bias against soy because of competition with other industries. They don't look at the fact that dairy milk (any milk ) will have far more hormones in that plant milk, and will have more of an effect, because they are animal hormones! Not the plant equivalent ><

    I don't think processed soy is great for anyone if eaten regularly, but I certainly don't think tofu etc is bad if eaten a couple of times a week. I wish reports would be less tabloid, even the BBC's article was a bit naff.

    ETA: reproduction! While I think less fertility = great, (we've made a choice not to have children ourselves) I do think people should be able to make their own educated choices on whether to have kids or not. I aren't a fan of things like IVF. I'm a firm believer in if you can have kids, great, if not, tough luck, adopt. However, if you have the tools of knowledge available to you and if it does turn out that soy affects fertility, then those concerned with fertility should cut out soy, rather than seek IVF treatment. Same with smoking and drinking.
    But reproduction is natural and intinct and I wouldn't condemn anyone for choosing to have kids...after all I wouldn't be here...and I quite like being here
    Last edited by philfox; Jul 25th, 2008 at 11:25 PM. Reason: To add what I ment to say originally ;)
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    CATWOMAN sandra's Avatar
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    Default Re: low sperm count

    Quote seitan View Post
    thats cool, but not every vegan will stay vegan, im sure there have been people on these forums that are no longer vegan, it happens.

    but as for vegan kids, we have to hope their kids are vegan and so on, all the way down the line, tho even that scares me.
    as ive said before, vegans also contribute to this messed up planet.

    I can't understand that concept that someone who is vegan will not always be vegan!
    That's like saying, 'I never used to like killing people but now I think I will'
    I think if someone who once was 'vegan' is no longer 'vegan'............then they weren't really 'vegan' to begin with!
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  31. #31
    seitan
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    Quote sandra View Post
    I can't understand that concept that someone who is vegan will not always be vegan!
    i know too many people who have done just that.

    Quote sandra View Post
    That's like saying, 'I never used to like killing people but now I think I will'
    well ,as a youth ,im sure many killers had nio idea they would one day kill. people change, and some for the worse.

    Quote sandra View Post
    I think if someone who once was 'vegan' is no longer 'vegan'............then they weren't really 'vegan' to begin with!
    "if youre not now, you never were". we agree

  32. #32
    Eager Beaver philfox's Avatar
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    Default Re: low sperm count

    Quote sandra View Post
    I can't understand that concept that someone who is vegan will not always be vegan!
    That's like saying, 'I never used to like killing people but now I think I will'
    I think if someone who once was 'vegan' is no longer 'vegan'............then they weren't really 'vegan' to begin with!
    Please don't take this the wrong way Sandra, as I love you! But I find that a little upsetting, personally, as a previously lapsed vegan. Even when lapsed as both an omni then a veggie afterwards I had the 'knowledge' that veganism was right, in my head, but my ability to act upon such knowledge was compromised by my mental health issues at the time and general lethargy. Yes, I'm in a similar position now as I was when I lapsed then, but I'm stronger now, and am comfortable in myself and my choices. I'm having ismilar issues with my weight/ health; I know what the *right* lifestyle and diet choices are, it's the fact that I can't do it...I simply can't...that sounds pathetic I know, and depressing, but sometimes life really does mess you up...even the massively important things like veganism, sometimes, well, with people like me, we mess up...I'm human and fallible. I'd like to think I'm vegan for life now, I feel different to back then...but as I say, I can't write off screwing up big time down the road...
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    Default Re: low sperm count

    Quote sandra View Post
    I think if someone who once was 'vegan' is no longer 'vegan'............then they weren't really 'vegan' to begin with!
    That's a bit harsh. You never know what extenuating circumstances a person may come to have. I'm not saying it might be impossible to be vegan, but I'm sure there are some periods of time in a persons life where the effort would just be more than they can spare. Mind you, I am talking very extenuating.

  34. #34
    seitan
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    Quote snivelingchild View Post
    That's a bit harsh. You never know what extenuating circumstances a person may come to have. I'm not saying it might be impossible to be vegan, but I'm sure there are some periods of time in a persons life where the effort would just be more than they can spare. Mind you, I am talking very extenuating.
    well i agree with sandra. being vegan is a life long commitment to compassion. if, for whatever reason you break away from veganism, you were never really vegan in the first place, because to be vegan, you have to understand compassion.
    its really quite simple.

  35. #35
    Eager Beaver philfox's Avatar
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    Default Re: low sperm count

    I guess I'm not a vegan then. Fine. I'll go and call out for a kebab because I'm not perfect.
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  36. #36
    seitan
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    Quote philfox View Post
    I guess I'm not a vegan then. Fine. I'll go and call out for a kebab because I'm not perfect.
    ha ha. you are TOTALLY missing the point.
    if youre not NOW, you never WERE.
    do you get it now?

  37. #37
    Eager Beaver philfox's Avatar
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    Quote seitan View Post
    well i agree with sandra. being vegan is a life long commitment to compassion. if, for whatever reason you break away from veganism, you were never really vegan in the first place, because to be vegan, you have to understand compassion.
    its really quite simple.
    Maybe I don't understand compassion, because I cannot comprehend knowing exactly what I will do in the future, or what others do. I may as well not bother caring about what I do now if I can only be compassionate because of fitting in with a label. Yes, I love being a vegan...no I don't want to ever think of myself as *not* vegan again. However, the fact that it seems that you need to be perfect to be considered vegan, has really put me off. I also know of many omnis and veggies who've done a lot for animals and welfare. I guess they aren't compassionate people then. Guess they are doing it automatically out of some other reason.

    ha ha. you are TOTALLY missing the point.
    if youre not NOW, you never WERE.
    do you get it now?
    Seitan, I've never posted much on this forum, but I've always respected you, and your views, and have often found myself agreeing with them. But, to be honest, partly to do with my health at the moment and partly to do with just realising that as a vegan you need to be perfect and consistent in everything you do...I don't think I can do that, and now I feel as though I am right back where I was 4-5 years ago. I had no support then and I 'failed' it looks like I'm heading the same way again. It's not easy being vegan when you have no real life friends, no support, no outlet for feelings. I'm not perfect...I never have proclaimed to be ever, but I can't write off omni/veggie friends as dispassionate no matter how much I'd love them to be vegan.

    So I guess with my dispassion and imperfect philosophies I should just go ahead, eat a steak, and the vegan community wouldn't care one bit because I'm not good enough?
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  38. #38
    CATWOMAN sandra's Avatar
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    Default Re: low sperm count

    Quote philfox View Post
    Maybe I don't understand compassion, because I cannot comprehend knowing exactly what I will do in the future, or what others do. I may as well not bother caring about what I do now if I can only be compassionate because of fitting in with a label. Yes, I love being a vegan...no I don't want to ever think of myself as *not* vegan again. However, the fact that it seems that you need to be perfect to be considered vegan, has really put me off. I also know of many omnis and veggies who've done a lot for animals and welfare. I guess they aren't compassionate people then. Guess they are doing it automatically out of some other reason.

    Hi Philfox,

    I really wasn't meaning to be 'harsh' with my comment..........
    I do understand that everyones life is different and they have various problems to face that can cloud their judgement. I really don't want to appear as judgemental but I just can't get my head around someone who was vegan for all the RIGHT reasons suddenly reverting to not being vegan.
    To me if I was to eat any animal product now it would be like eating human flesh! I just don't see animals as food.
    I don't feel it's a matter of trying to be 'perfect' so please don't let anyone make you feel that way.
    Perhaps, the other time you were 'vegan' you maybe weren't at the stage you are now and that's why you reverted to being non-vegan. I was 'vegan' for a couple of months before I finally became vegan for good, so I do understand what you mean.
    I just feel that once you become vegan for all the right reasons, you will be vegan for life!

    p.s. I love you too Philfox! xx
    I like Sandra, she keeps making me giggle. Daft little lady - Frosty

  39. #39
    seitan
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    Quote philfox View Post
    Maybe I don't understand compassion, because I cannot comprehend knowing exactly what I will do in the future, or what others do. I may as well not bother caring about what I do now if I can only be compassionate because of fitting in with a label. Yes, I love being a vegan...no I don't want to ever think of myself as *not* vegan again. However, the fact that it seems that you need to be perfect to be considered vegan, has really put me off. I also know of many omnis and veggies who've done a lot for animals and welfare. I guess they aren't compassionate people then. Guess they are doing it automatically out of some other reason.
    it has nothing to do with fitting in with a label. it has everything to do with not being a part of the death and abuse/use of animals.
    but youve STILL missed the point. if you are not NOW, then you never WERE. that is not saying if you are not NOW, you never WILL be.

    if you feel "put off" by someones position on the fact that a vegan should be vegan for life, then id suggest you dont understand what veganism is really about. thats like the carnivore arguments, " ive met pushy vegans, put me right off being veg*n" which equates to "because i dont like you, im gonna carry on contributing to the pointless death of animals. that logic makes no sense.

    as for the non-vegans doing work for animal "welfare" (contraversial word/ideal) yet still beign a part of their death, im not sure how you can consider these people compassionate.
    they most probably are doing it out of some other reason, guilt! helping feed neglected horses on a sanctuary slightly eases their conscience for the bacon sarnie they just ate. im not seeing where the compassion is there.


    Quote philfox View Post
    Seitan, I've never posted much on this forum, but I've always respected you, and your views, and have often found myself agreeing with them. But, to be honest, partly to do with my health at the moment and partly to do with just realising that as a vegan you need to be perfect and consistent in everything you do...I don't think I can do that, and now I feel as though I am right back where I was 4-5 years ago. I had no support then and I 'failed' it looks like I'm heading the same way again. It's not easy being vegan when you have no real life friends, no support, no outlet for feelings. I'm not perfect...I never have proclaimed to be ever, but I can't write off omni/veggie friends as dispassionate no matter how much I'd love them to be vegan.
    many people manage to be vegan in some of the most remotest parts, its all down to the individuals drive and personality, i understand that, but wiht the internet you do have thew support and outlet for feelings, youre showing that right now
    i find it quite easy to admit to myself that some people i like are un-compassionate. i just have to make sure they know why i feel that way about them, and generally they do understand why i feel like that, theyre just too selfish/weak to do anything about it.


    Quote philfox View Post
    So I guess with my dispassion and imperfect philosophies I should just go ahead, eat a steak, and the vegan community wouldn't care one bit because I'm not good enough?
    dude, who siad youre not good enough? seriously, where did anybody here say that?

  40. #40
    muxu bero bat! gogs67's Avatar
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    Quote philfox View Post
    ?
    I know it's hard but try not to worry about it, as the numerous threads on here have discussed no one on this forum is 100% vegan but everyone just does what they can at the time. Labels are just that, a label that anyone can use, it's how you feel inside that matters and i'm sure you are making as much effort to be as good a 'vegan' as you can be!

    And i'm sure some of the great names in conservation, David Attenborough, Joy Adamson, Gerald Durrell, Diane Fossey et al would back up the fact that when it comes to bringing animal welfare to a wider audience, compassion and sheer numbers of animals saved then diet and lifestyle are maybe not the be all and end all!


    Anyway, this thread is diversing by the second!
    These studies quoted are nothing but speculation and conjecture. It's all 'what if', 'could be', 'might' and 'maybe' so don't start using yer soy eating as a contraceptive just yet! lol!!!!
    Disobedience is the true foundation of liberty!

  41. #41
    seitan
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    Quote gogs67 View Post

    And i'm sure some of the great names in conservation, David Attenborough, Joy Adamson, Gerald Durrell, Diane Fossey et al would back up the fact that when it comes to bringing animal welfare to a wider audience, compassion and sheer numbers of animals saved then diet and lifestyle are maybe not the be all and end all!

    but being vegan isnt just about diet

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    muxu bero bat! gogs67's Avatar
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    Quote seitan View Post
    but being vegan isnt just about diet
    Hence why i put diet and lifestyle!
    Disobedience is the true foundation of liberty!

  43. #43
    Pilaf
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    Haha..someone posted this on another forum I'm on that's hostile to vegans and actually expected me to "defend your lifestyle NOW".

    I just laughed and said "Good..fewer sperm cells mean fewer annoying children running around the world." (I'm very, very much with Seitan on this one. People should breed less!)

    Besides it's not like a lower sperm count ever killed anyone - and on the other side of the coin the side effects of animal products directly lead to millions of deaths each year.

  44. #44
    BlackCats
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    http://www.nhs.uk/news/2008/07July/P...fertility.aspx

    I hope that link worked, I just read it on the NHS website the other day.

    It seems like the tabloids are just happy to come up with a screaming headline as usual. I don't think there would be anything wrong with people having less children (I am saying that as someone childless so my perspective is obviously very different to those with children.) I do think that the earth's resources are being utilised really poorly and if there was more respect for them that the planet wouldn't be in such a mess.

  45. #45
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    Quote Aphrodite View Post
    http://www.nhs.uk/news/2008/07July/P...fertility.aspx

    I hope that link worked, I just read it on the NHS website the other day.

    It seems like the tabloids are just happy to come up with a screaming headline as usual. I don't think there would be anything wrong with people having less children (I am saying that as someone childless so my perspective is obviously very different to those with children.) I do think that the earth's resources are being utilised really poorly and if there was more respect for them that the planet wouldn't be in such a mess.
    A daily mail claim that's misleading! Now there's a surprise!
    Disobedience is the true foundation of liberty!

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    Quote gogs67 View Post
    A daily mail claim that's misleading! Now there's a surprise!
    I know, I was so surprised, it's almost as if they are trying to push their own biased agenda.

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    seitan
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    i had the jehovas around earlier ( always when im on my way out!). they said that they will live forever and so will all beleivers. i asked how the earth would sustain all these people that will not die. their answer was theres plenty of un-populated land. when i tlaked about the polution all these extra people would do, they, well, cantr even remmber, just went on some jesus crap

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    Default Re: low sperm count

    Sandra, when I said extenuating circumstances, I meant something like say you decide to go to a different country for volunteer work for 6 months, and where you are, the people have a limited amount of fruit or vegetables due to poor farm land. (maybe that's why your helping?) Maybe, while you can have a couple vegan foods, it's just not enough for a healthy diet to keep your energy up for 6 months, and there's something they have in abundance which may be a pastry with something like honey or a small amount of goat milk. If you eat this occasionally because the vegan diet you would have available isn't sustainable for 6 months, and as soon as you can, you eat vegan again. Would this mean a person was never vegan? I don't think it would be appropriate or practical to bring and eat 6 months worth of clif bars in front of a starving people.

    My point is that you can never know another person's situation completely, and it's best not to judge, but help educate them as much as possible, and trust they'll make the right decisions.

    After Katrina, I met quite a few vegan volunteers. It took them a few days in their limited spare time to find where to get vegan food. They had no way to prepare food, and had to buy ready to eat. For the first few days, you can't really take off to the market, and sort of have to eat what Red Cross supplies, so they ate the vegetarian food for a few days until I brought them extra vegan bread from our bakery, and they knew where to go. I don't blame these people, I think they tried the best they could given an uncomfortable decision.

  49. #49
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    Quote snivelingchild View Post
    Sandra, when I said extenuating circumstances, I meant something like say you decide to go to a different country for volunteer work for 6 months, and where you are, the people have a limited amount of fruit or vegetables due to poor farm land. (maybe that's why your helping?) Maybe, while you can have a couple vegan foods, it's just not enough for a healthy diet to keep your energy up for 6 months, and there's something they have in abundance which may be a pastry with something like honey or a small amount of goat milk. If you eat this occasionally because the vegan diet you would have available isn't sustainable for 6 months, and as soon as you can, you eat vegan again. Would this mean a person was never vegan? I don't think it would be appropriate or practical to bring and eat 6 months worth of clif bars in front of a starving people.
    pretty far out example, but ill answer it anyway.
    personally, i have missed out on many vacations due to not really knowing what and where id be able to eat. that was obviously my choice, to NOT be a part of what i am strongly opposed to.
    the people in your example were either un-prepared or knew that they may have to partake in soemthing, they supposedly dissaproved of.
    these people CHOSE to falter on their veganism.
    also, in your example, you are suggesting that a vegan diet isnt good enough to survive, and that youd have to eat soemthing with animal products in it.


    Quote snivelingchild View Post
    My point is that you can never know another person's situation completely, and it's best not to judge, but help educate them as much as possible, and trust they'll make the right decisions.
    "judge"? if youre then going to try and educate them, surely youve judged them.


    Quote snivelingchild View Post
    After Katrina, I met quite a few vegan volunteers. It took them a few days in their limited spare time to find where to get vegan food. They had no way to prepare food, and had to buy ready to eat. For the first few days, you can't really take off to the market, and sort of have to eat what Red Cross supplies, so they ate the vegetarian food for a few days until I brought them extra vegan bread from our bakery, and they knew where to go. I don't blame these people, I think they tried the best they could given an uncomfortable decision.
    again, these people put themselves in this situation, and if they went there to help the homeless people, they put humans above animals. thats speciesist.
    if these people had prepared themselves better, they wouldnt have had a problem.

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    muxu bero bat! gogs67's Avatar
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    Quote seitan View Post

    again, these people put themselves in this situation, and if they went there to help the homeless people, they put humans above animals. thats speciesist.
    if these people had prepared themselves better, they wouldnt have had a problem.
    Please start a thread on this. I'd be interested to see the response!
    Disobedience is the true foundation of liberty!

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