Sainsbury's is dropping vegan labelling

[AbFab]

Grrr!!! I feel a boycott coming on. Mind you, I really don't think the others are any better. I'm still for inundating them with emails and calls though, until they hear our message and understand that we are a large enough group of people to go to the bother of satisfying! Once we've sorted Sainsbury's, we can annoy Tesco's, and the others. Or maybe we'll start on Tesco's too already! Watch out world. Grrr!

[RedWellies]

Or maybe we'll start on Tesco's too !

I already have. They said that they would pass my email (about labelling more things vegan) on to the relevant people but that's the last I heard about it all.

[Veryblue2]

Emailed Sainsbury's to comment on the newly suitable Freefrom shortbread and ask if any other items in the range were under ingredient review, but mainly to ask why some products had 'suitable for vegans' recently removed. Made no mention of reading about it online, just said I had noticed on my last shop that some labels on things I normally buy had been removed. Below is the reply I got:

If a previously vegan product is no longer labelled “suitable for vegans,” this is due to a chance of cross contamination in the factory where it is made. I can assure you it is Sainsbury's policy to label products that are suitable for vegans, as “suitable for vegetarians and vegans”, using the Sainsbury's vegetarian and vegan logo. The only exceptions are those groups of products which are obviously vegan (and where our vegan customers have indicated that labelling is unnecessary). Examples include plain waters, unseasoned flours, plain fruit and vegetables. The position of the logo on pack may differ from product to product due to different pack formats and the presence of other key customer messages.

I would like to assure you that we do not have any current plans to remove vegan signs from our packaging. We are also investigating where this statement came from.

Thank you for your kind comments about our Freefrom shortbread, I am pleased you are happy this product is now suitable for vegans. As you have access to the Internet please revisit our website again and browse through our special diets pages. I am sure, along with our vegan recipes, you will find these most interesting.

[Pob]

That cross-contamination thing is a load of crap.

The frozen indian snacks (samosas and onion bhajis) are labelled as suitable for vegans. They are also labelled as unsuitable for people with a shellfish or milk (and some other) allergies due to possibilities of contamination!

On a side note this would also make it not vegetarian as far as the vegetarian society logo is concerned (contamination with non vegetarian ingredients is not allowed.):
http://www.vegsoc.org/business/corporate/index.html

Although it would still be suitable for a vegan society logo, I think.

[Dr Phibes]

Hi Pob

Are you sure that the Samosas, onion bhajis etc are labelled vegan?!? I've just been and had a look in our local Sainsbury's and they're labelled as suitable only for vegetarians, along with the allergy information you mentioned...

Regards
Phibes

[Pob]

The frozen mini indian selection (samosas and bhajis) are labelled vegan. The chilled samosas and the chilled bhajis are labelled vegan individually, but not when they are mixed, oddly.

[Marrers]

I checked those out in my local Savacentre and I think it was the Casserole that had milk in it.

I checked today and you are right Sam, well spotted. I will email them back about it, dreadful to give us wrong info like that. If everything vegan was actually labelled as such mistakes like this couldn't happen.

[Marrers]

I just emailed them, will let you know what response I get:-

You recently emailed me the following in response to my query of whether any food in the Not Just For Vegetarians range was suitable for vegans (despite not being labelled as suitable).

copy of their email

On double checking the ingredients before buying the Vegetable Casserole with Dumplings I was shocked to find it contains milk.

Can you explain how I came to be told it was suitable when it is not? (Mistakes like this would not happen if you labelled ALL vegan food - the cross contamination risk is a total red herring as an excuse for not labelling. If the risk was significant surely it would be labelled as unsuitable for those with dairy allergies, but it is not. Vegans are not allergic to dairy, we just choose to avoid it.)

[Jonny Nexus]

If a previously vegan product is no longer labelled “suitable for vegans,” this is due to a chance of cross contamination in the factory where it is made. I can assure you it is Sainsbury's policy to label products that are suitable for vegans, as “suitable for vegetarians and vegans”, using the Sainsbury's vegetarian and vegan logo.

That is, according to their Customer Care line, a lie.

As I think I mentioned in a previous email, the vegetable samosas and pilau rice are both still suitable for vegans, despite only saying suitable for vegetarians. (Unless they were lying when they told me that they were suitable for vegans).

As it happens, we went to Sainsburys over the weekend and found that the Scottish Porridge Oats (barcode 0055 3179) were marked as "Suitable for Vegetarians" only, despite having no allergy advice and an ingredient list consisting simply of "Oats".

Are they saying that the oats are cross-contiminated with milk or eggs? If so, why does the allegy advice section not mention that?

Also, their weetabix clone has vegetarian only despite having no obvious non-vegan ingredients or allergy advice. Unfortunatly, though I haven't got that barcode to hand.

[Marrers]

Are they saying that the oats are cross-contiminated with milk or eggs? If so, why does the allegy advice section not mention that?

To me this is the major concern and this attitude will lead to very few items being listed as vegan. Surely if there was any serious cross contamination risk they would be allerting consumers to it in the 'allergy advice' box, for those with dairy allergies.

Personally as long as there are no animal ingredients and an effort to avoid cross contamination that is good enough for me to consider it vegan. I am avoiding animal products as far as reasonably possible for animal welfare reasons, not allergy.

I feel we vegans are being viewed as impossible to please hysterical extremists.

What do other people think about whether things should be labelled as vegan even if they are produced in a factory which also handles dairy?

Perhaps things should be labelled as vegan but have it written on the back somewhere that they are produced in a factory handling dairy products so that those who wish to avoid these things can. Or am I in the minority in not worrying too much about cross contamination?

[Manzana]

I feel we vegans are being viewed as impossible to please hysterical extremists.

What do other people think about whether things should be labelled as vegan even if they are produced in a factory which also handles dairy?

Perhaps things should be labelled as vegan but have it written on the back somewhere that they are produced in a factory handling dairy products so that those who wish to avoid these things can. Or am I in the minority in not worrying too much about cross contamination?

Personally I'm not too fussed at the moment if the factory also handles dairy/eggs, but I do know some vegans that do care and will not buy those products!... it is hard to please everyone, what does the vegan society say about this?

[Gorilla]

i'm sure there's a separate thread here about cross-contamination... i think the Vegan Society does approve products that have a possibility of cross-contamination.

[Mr Flibble]

I think the main problem is the lack of definition of the word vegan. As far as I know Sainsburys have never stated what theirs is, or that they note the stance of the Vegan Society. Certainly there is no universal definition (even members of this board can't decide), so Sainsburys are in a dodgy situation. Take for instance tofutti - they label products as being vegan which personally I do not believe to be vegan. What I'd like to see is them saying exactly what they think the defintion of a vegan product is, then labelling accordingly. In fact, I created a thread about this 4 months ago (link).

Of course; if they aren't labelling things as being vegan out of sheer laziness then that's a separate issue.

[RedWellies]

As it happens, we went to Sainsburys over the weekend and found that the Scottish Porridge Oats (barcode 0055 3179) were marked as "Suitable for Vegetarians" only, despite having no allergy advice and an ingredient list consisting simply of "Oats".

I guess that's one of those "obvious" products they say they don't need to label.

[Manzana]

Well, surely if it's that obvious, they should not bother labelling it for vegetarians either.... I was in Sainsbury's yesterday and I saw a packet of shelled hazelnuts (sainsbury's own brand), they were labelled for vegetarians but not for vegans...

[aubergine]

I checked today and you are right Sam, well spotted. I will email them back about it, dreadful to give us wrong info like that. If everything vegan was actually labelled as such mistakes like this couldn't happen.

It's a real shame. The Casserole sounded really good

I love most types of food, but there's a real lack of traditional British insta food for Vegans.

[Marrers]

What I'd like to see is them saying exactly what they think the defintion of a vegan product is, then labelling accordingly. In fact, I created a thread about this 4 months ago (link).

Not sure why but I can't access this thread - what section is it in? I presume it is one you have to specifically join up to view.

[Mr Flibble]

It's in the letter writting section

[Marrers]

Is that 'Animal cruelty & campaigning'? If so it's a members only area.

[Mr Flibble]

It's 'Writing letters/emails'

[Jonny Nexus]

Personally as long as there are no animal ingredients and an effort to avoid cross contamination that is good enough for me to consider it vegan. I am avoiding animal products as far as reasonably possible for animal welfare reasons, not allergy.

Personally, I agree.

But they are saying that the only reason an apparently vegan product (i.e. one whose ingredient list contains only vegan ingredients) might be labelled as vegetarian only is where there is a risk of it being cross-contaminated with milk or eggs.

However, were this the case with the oats, then the allergy advice would contain a cross-contamination warning (as the bourbon biscuits now do).

Which is does not.

So Sainsburys are contradicting themselves.

[Jonny Nexus]

Well, surely if it's that obvious, they should not bother labelling it for vegetarians either.... I was in Sainsbury's yesterday and I saw a packet of shelled hazelnuts (sainsbury's own brand), they were labelled for vegetarians but not for vegans...

Exactly. Has anyone asked them if "obvious" products are not labelled as suitable for vegetarians either?

[Dr Phibes]

Hi all

Very interesting thread. I hadn't previously posted much here as I was waiting for communications with Sainsbury's to be completed but...

Firstly, the issue of cross-contamination:
For what it's worth I am concerned about possible cross-contamination. I became vegan because I do not want to consume bits of animals, no matter how small those bits might be. If there is a risk of cross-contamination with milk or eggs I want to be informed, so I can make an informed choice about whether I buy the product or not. I stopped buying Green & Blacks and started buying Plamil for this very reason. Perhaps I'm being radical or extreme but I'm afraid I want to know what it is that goes into my body. Am I the only one? Surely not...

As for Sainsbury's:
The company has been caught out good and proper but the company isn't required by law to label its range, it introduced the labelling to help a section of its customer base. My personal belief is that Sainsbury's had come to the conclusion (for some bizarre reason) that as few people were making enquiries about vegan products then obviously there was no need to continue the labelling. It probably didn't occur to the company at all that it is entirely due to the success of the vegan labelling scheme that fewer vegan-related enquiries have been generated! That's corporations for you...

From lengthy discussions with its customer services department, I am now led to believe that the labelling is to continue and I feel that it is now up to us to let the company know where it has erred so that mistakes can be rectified and normal service resumed as soon as possible.

My personal thanks and congratulations to all of those involved in turning this around and ensuring that the future looks better for vegans who choose to shop at Sainsbury's. Of course it's a little too soon to be having an online victory party but, and this is a big but, if the company comes good on its promises then we have reason to feel proud. If it doesn't then we should, naturally, continue to encourage it to do so.

Regards
Phibes

[Veryblue2]

All they need to do is label consistently. A small table / sentence on every product with all dietary restrictions always listed under the appropriate heading according to whether an item is suitable or not. Then they could just add the *asterisk disclaimer link to further allergy avoidance information.

For example -

Suitable for:
Vegetarians, vegans*, individuals with dairy allergies, individuals with nut allergies, halal, kosher
Not suitable for:
individuals with egg allergies*

*Allergy Warning: produced in a factory / on a production line that also handles eggs. Therefore this product potentially contains traces of egg.

It's not that difficult surely.....

[twinkle]

I wouldn't have thought so, and you put it simply but clearly - have you emailed this comment to their Customer Services, Veryblue2? If not, it'd be great if you did!

[Jonny Nexus]

My latest post on the Sainsburys forums:

Perhaps someone from Sainsburys could answer a point that is confusing me. You say:

"The only exceptions are those groups of products which are obviously vegan (and where our vegan customers have indicated that labelling is uneccessary). Examples include plain waters, unseasoned flours, plain fruit and veg."

I was assuming that this meant that (say) unseasoned flour would have nothing on it, no "Suitable for Vegetarians and Vegans", no ""Suitable for Vegetarians", no nothing. (i.e. The "obvious" exception would apply to vegetarian labelling also).

However, over the weekend I found some Scottish Porridge Oats. The ingredient list just said "oats" and there was no allergy information whatsoever.

Now I wasn't terribly surprised that it didn't say it was suitable for vegans, as I guess you could argue that it's obvious that oats are just, well, oats.

But what confused me was that it said "suitable for vegetarians"?

Surely it's either obvious or not obvious? How can it be obvious for vegans but not for vegetarians?

Or is Sainsburys saying that vegans are cleverer than vegetarians?

So my questions are:

1) Does the "obvious" exception also apply to vegetarian labelling? (i.e. will obvious things just have no veggie/vegan labelling, or will they say "Suitable for vegetarians").

2) Are the Scottish Porridge Oats suitable for vegans?

[Marrers]

Love it!

[Manzana]

I have been laughing non stop for about 5 minutes... poor b*stards... they really should not have touched the vegan labelling!!!

[veganlinda]

I don't shop at sainsbury's much - am trying to shop locally - but have contacted them too on this having read the thread ...

[Jonny Nexus]

And another post (replying to one replying to my earlier post):

> 1) It may be superfluous to label oats as 'suitable for vegetarians', but I suppose that as long as vegetarians are specifically mentioned,
> vegans should be specifically mentioned also. It may be easier just to remove these 'suitability labels' for such simple products. Its down
> to preferences & opinions. As I am neither a vegetarian nor a vegan, it isnt for me to say, but if I were, I wouldnt worry about it.

Well I'd rather just have them always on there, as "obvious" isn't always obvious. The porridge oats, for example, could have had preservatives or something in them.

But surely it should be consistent?

And the reason I'm worrying about it is because I want to know if I should automatically *not* eat something which is marked as "Suitable for vegetarians" on the grounds that the Sainsburys statement appears to imply that anything with that label is always going to be *unsuitable* for vegans.

> 2) Porrige Oats are suitable for vegans

Without wanting to sound rude, how do you know that? (Are you a Sainsburys worker replying in an unofficial capacity?)

On other occasions, Sainsburys have said that if something is marked as "Suitable for vegetarians" only but appears to have vegetarian only ingredients then it must have been so marked because of a possible risk of cross-contamination with non-vegan products. (Although I would then have thought that the allergy advice section would say something). How do you know that the porridge oats haven't been cross-contaminated with something?

[Jonny Nexus]

My last three posts to the Vegan Labelling thread on the Sainsburys forum, posted on the 24th, 25th and today.

> 1) Does the "obvious" exception also apply to vegetarian labelling? (i.e. will obvious things just have no
> veggie/vegan labelling, or will they say "Suitable for vegetarians").

> 2) Are the Scottish Porridge Oats suitable for vegans?

Just bouncing this... any Sainsburys people on here who can answer it?

"Just bouncing this... any Sainsburys people on here who can answer it?"

Anyone? It has been two days now, and we are only talking about two yes or no questions!

"Anyone? It has been two days now, and we are only talking about two yes or no questions!"

Starting to feel like a madman in an empty room here...

As an supplementary question, I found two smoothies today that look like they should be vegan, but are only marked as vegetarian.

The products were "Fruity strawberry & raspberry smoothie" and "Exotic orange & mango smoothie" (barcodes were 0135 6212 and 0135 5673).

Can someone from Sainsburys tell me if these are okay for vegans?

[Marrers]

Maybe you should email these questions / comments in. That way they would have to give some response wouildn't they?

Or maybe not - I'm still waiting for an answer to the email I sent about being misinformed re the things suitable for vegans new range.

[Jonny Nexus]

Maybe you should email these questions / comments in. That way they would have to give some response wouildn't they?

Yeah... but it would be a response they could deny ever making if it turned out to be untrue. I want an "on the record" answer. (Also, they seem to just send the same pat email response out and totally ignore the actual queston answered).

As it happens, someone asked the same question on the Sainsburys forums (not quite as politely as you). Here is my answer:

"Surely this isn't the best way to be asking for this kind of info? Most people on this site are talking about food etc, not to use it as way to bombard Sainsbury's with questions! If you want sainsbury's to answer these, wouldn't you be better off contacting them by email so they get back to you directly?"

Well...

1) Given that these are the official Sainsburys forums, I am rather operating under the assumption that they are intended as one means by which customers can contact Sainsburys and that there will be Sainsburys customer support staff whose job (or part of whose job) is to monitor the boards and post accordingly. That is how it usually works with corporate forums, and indeed, I have seen posts here from Sainsburys.

2) It would be much more efficient for everyone - both us and Sainsburys - if they were to answer questions here, as I only have to ask them once and they only have to answer them once, rather than everyone having to email them and then them having to reply multiple times.

3) Part of the problem here is that they have given out multiple responses to multiple people, both by email and by phone, but that those responses often contradict one another - if they are indeed being reported truthfully. It seems to me that it would be much better for Sainsburys to state their answers here, once, "on the record", and thereby clear up all the current confusion.

4) When you say "Most people on this site are talking about food":

a) Who are most people?

b) In what way is asking what Sainsburys products are suitable for vegans, not talking about food? (Especially given that this is the Vegan & Vegetarian forum?)

What sort of posts would you consider suitable?

Or maybe not - I'm still waiting for an answer to the email I sent about being misinformed re the things suitable for vegans new range.

That's the other thing. With an email, they can just not bother to answer it if you've asked a question they don't want to answer, and no-one except you knows what they're doing.

[Jonny Nexus]

And it turns out that the person who just told me off for asking questions about vegan food in the vegan forum isn't even a vegetarian. He/she has made 36 posts since last May, but this is the first to the Vegan/Vegetarian forum, and I found a post where he/she was talking about having bought prawns.

[RossClement]

If there is no joy, maybe the best strategy is to inundate them with requests to verify whether individual products are Vegan.

That keeps the issue 'on the radar'.

I think that's the best policy. If they keep getting hundreds of requests per week, they might reconsider.

Don't Iceland not do a vegan list any more? Perhaps we should be bothering Iceland as well.

At least there's still the co-op. They wouldn't stop labelling would they?

[gertvegan]

Sorry if its already been posted but Sainsbury's have agreed to meet with The Vegan Society.

[cedarblue]

excellent - thanks gert.

[aubergine]

That's really good news

[RedWellies]

Yes. Let's hope the society can talk some sense into Sainsburys. We're a growing part of the market, they'd be silly to ignore us.

[Troutina]

Sorry if its already been posted but Sainsbury's have agreed to meet with The Vegan Society.

AMAZING!!!!

[Jonny Nexus]

I got an emailed reply to the questions I asked on the Sainsburys forums. The interesting bit was this statement:

Your comments, as well as those of some other vegan customers, have brought to our attention some inconsistencies in our labelling. We have now amended our policy statement to clarify that we are working towards full compliance. You can see the amended policy by clicking HERE.

Now at the time, that confused the hell out of me, because when I clicked on the link it was the exact same statement as before. (I sent a polite email back pointing out that the statement hadn't actually been amended).

Anyhow, it has now changed to say the following:

Sainsbury’s policy is to label all products that are suitable for vegans, as “suitable for vegetarians and vegans”, using the Sainsbury's vegetarian and vegan logo. The only exceptions are those products that are obviously vegan and where our customers have indicated that labelling is unnecessary. Examples include plain waters, unseasoned flours, plain fruit and vegetables. Please be aware that the vegan logo may appear in different places on the packaging depending on the size and shape of the product and any other information that needs to be displayed.

We are working to ensure all our suppliers comply with our policy so that customers can have confidence in the labelling of our products.

(Emphasis mine).

My interpretation of that is as follows:

Sainsburys have set of guidelines that dictate the design of the packaging of their third-party products, part of which will be that the packaging should say "Suitable for Vegetarians" (with the leaf logo) where it is suitable for vegetarians only, and "Suitable for Vegans" (with the V logo) where it isn't.

Now, I was already aware that supermarkets like Sainsburys don't actually design and produce their third-party products; there are companies whose business model is to produce certain types of products on behalf of supermarkets.

But from the statement, it appears that Sainsburys haven't just outsourced the design and manufacture of the product, but of the packaging also.

I had a search around, and found a website for a company called McBride, who do what is called "private label" manufacturing.

Here's a snippet from their website (again, emphasis mine):

The company is structured to give its customers a complete private label service that includes marketing and category development, product and packaging design, logistics and supply chain management and fast responses to market needs with manufacturing centres in six countries across Europe.

What is the significance of this?

It means that it is the supplier's responsibility to determine if something is vegan or not, and to put the appropriate logo on the packaging.

So the answer to the question "why do your oats not say that they are suitable for vegans?" is "because the people who supply are oats screwed up when they were designing the packaging."

And slightly more worryingly, if, say, a Sainsburys own-brand product says that it is suitable for vegans but actually contains milk, then it isn't Sainsburys who've screwed up, but the faceless, brandless company who made the product for them.

I'm not sure that this really changes things for me. After all, I was already choosing to trust a commercial company to accurately label foods. And with all the allergy problems that people now appear to be suffering from, I think companies are working very hard to get labels right. But I am a bit worried that it's no longer one single company (Sainsburys) who I have to trust to get it right - it's a whole bunch of their suppliers also.

But at least I now have some idea of what's been going on. That it isn't one single organisation producing the packaging means that there's a much simpler explanation for much of what has been happening.

It doesn't need to be the result of a change of policy.

It could just be cocked up communications between a whole bunch of people who aren't quite pulling in the same direction.

[RedWellies]

Supermarkets have been contracting out packaging for years now. I still think the final responsibility lies with the supermarket though because that is where the goods are sold.

[Jonny Nexus]

Supermarkets have been contracting out packaging for years now. I still think the final responsibility lies with the supermarket though because that is where the goods are sold.

Yes, I do appreciate it's probably obvious, but I'm afraid it was a bit of a "light bulb" moment for me.

I've just re-read the email from Sainsburys, and there was another interesting section:

We are working hard to identify the products that do not comply with our policy. We have re-issued the policy to our suppliers, product developers and technologists to ensure that everyone involved in packaging design understands our requirements for labelling. We maintain a close contact with the Vegan Society and will be meeting with them next month to discuss the issues that have been raised.

So it does sound like they're really trying hard to sort everything out.

[RedWellies]

Yes, I do appreciate it's probably obvious,

Sorry, I didn't mean that to come out the way it maybe did

[twinkle]

Well, I'm just thankful they finally seem to be taking us seriously

[Jonny Nexus]

Sorry, I didn't mean that to come out the way it maybe did

No problem!

[Cumin]

I've just been to sainsbury's and was annoyed to see a number of things that used to be labelled vegan are now not. e.g. Bombay Potato, Beef and Onion flavour snack noodles.
I can see nothing new in the ingredients that would make them not suitable, so I hope they sort out this labelling mess soon.. Grrrrr !

[aubergine]

I noticed the Bombay Potato too, although I never realised any of their snack noodles were okay.

[danaeonyx]

Omg! And I was gonna write a letter to them thanking them for being kind to vegans! Not important information? Argh!

[Stu]

Apologies if this (or something similar) had already been posted; I haven't read the thread:


"Thank you for your email. I understand your concerns about the statement that has recently been made regarding the labelling of our vegan products. Please accept my sincere apologies for any confusion you have been caused.
It is Sainsbury's policy to label products that are suitable for vegans, as “suitable for vegetarians and vegans”, using the Sainsbury's vegetarian and vegan logo. The only exceptions are those groups of products which are obviously vegan (and where our vegan customers have indicated that labelling is unnecessary). Examples include plain waters, unseasoned flours, plain fruit and vegetables. The position of the logo on pack may differ from product to product due to different pack formats and the presence of other key customer messages.

I would like to assure you that we do not have any current plans to remove vegan signs from our packaging. We are also investigating where this statement came from.

Once again thank you for taking the time to contact us. I hope you will continue to shop at Sainsbury's in the future.
Kind regards
Sarah Rose
Sainsbury's Customer Services"