But why other wild birds don't do that?
And why hens stop laying eggs when they brood and grow their kids?
But why other wild birds don't do that?
And why hens stop laying eggs when they brood and grow their kids?
Other "wild" birds are free to make their own sexual choices, so their eggs are usually fertilised. Hen mothers, like human mothers, stop ovulating when they are nurturing their young. For example, I didn't have any periods for eight months after my son was born, and only very light ones up until I stopped nursing him at three and a half.
Hen mothers may have a different mechanism which turns off their ovulation than human mothers, but they still have no need to ovulate when looking after their babies.
In the wild hens lay small clutches, not very often, and most of the eggs have been fertilised, because hens are able to regulate their own lives, and have intercourse with who they want.
Hens in captivity don't have any of these choices, and so their behaviour is not typical of hen culture or biology as a whole. Hens in captivity are stressed as well. Human women will tell you that stress can cause problems with ovulation. (I can tell you that myself!) It seems from observation that stressed hens suffer more when laying than free hens.
It all makes sense, no wonder more women are vegan than men we can empathise
Actually, that is an interesting point. Have you ever read The Sexual Politics of Meat by Carole Adams?
You could argue that all enslavement whatever its form sprang from the ugly precedent of using animals for their flesh, milk and eggs. Another thing to bear in mind is the fact that animals are routinely sexually abused. What else is "artificial insemination"? A human being can give consent for her fertility to be manipulated. A male turkey does not give consent to be masturbated - and frequently these victims of sexual assault have bruised penises because the "milker" (am I okay to call them by their real name? Wanker?) is so rough with them. Similarly bulls and boars are anally electrocuted to force them to ejaculate, (they often have scarring of their anus, and burns) and the female victims are pinned down while humans insert the semen into their vaginas. Often turkeys, pigs and cows suffer from vaginal tearing. Basically male and female animals are raped for the meat industry.
The same thing happens to "pure bred" (ie, deliberately inbred) pets as well. Joan Dunayer writes about a female bull dog who was basically raped to death by two men - though they called it "breeding." She was pinned on her back, and because she was a bull dog had breathing difficulties. As the man who thought he owned her struggled to keep her pinned she bit him. He was taken directly to the hospital. Meanwhile the breeder continued to attempt to shove a basting type syringe with semen into her vagina, despite her obvious terror. Her breathing worsened as her panic grew, and she died.
When the case was reported the veterinary profession were concerned that this kind of thing could lead to legal damages against the profession. The man could sue for injury (the victim biting him) and for loss of property (the victim died.)
Of course both men should have been done for sexual assault and murder.
What amazes me is that I have spoken to Christians about the fact that their "meat" was once an individual, who has been confined, beaten, often sexually abused and murdered, and they still continue to eat the poor victims. Milk is always a product of sexual abuse in the West, as well as theft from some mother and her baby. It is horrific. Basically "farming" is based on abuse of every kind against the victims. Including sexual abuse. So yes, maybe women do understand slightly better than most men, but many men have been sexually abused too. As long as we enslave animals and legitimise their torture by thinking turkey wanking is an acceptable job for a human being we will never evolve as a species into something better than killers and rapists. And we need to evolve, for everyone's sake. Not least the chickens.
Mary
Yeah, I often wonder whether the sexual abuse and manipulation of the animals people exploit for meat and milk has a direct effect on the sexual psychology of society. Like maybe the proliferation of wank mags and websites is a direct consequence.
once in a while you can get shown the light
in the strangest of places if you look at it right
I read that bestiality is legal in many American states, and parts of Europe. It wouldn't be as legal if it was called "rape of a non human."
That is absurd and totally sick.
Ofcourse it wouldn't be the case if the non human was taking the leading role would it!
Mind you with some warped human brains who knows yuck
Well the whole artificial insemination industry is definitely a form of bestiality. How come that's not outlawed in the UK as well as actual physical human-animal copulation?
Have you ever seen the pervy semen ads in 'Farmer's Weekly'?
And in Gwlad, the Welsh Assembly farming advice mag a while ago, there was a photo of a guy with his arm right up a cow's vagina, illustrating an article about how he got a grant for his AI business
once in a while you can get shown the light
in the strangest of places if you look at it right
That is a great point. I presume because no-one ever thought to challenge standard practise (ie, sexual abuse of animals) in the courts before. I will put your question to an animal rights lawyer that I know, and see what he thinks can be done with it.How come that's not outlawed in the UK as well as actual physical human-animal copulation?
Can you imagine what a precedent outlawing the forced insemination of non human animals would set, if it was agreed with? The breeding of victim animals would be massively reduced over night.
One day the law that your suggestion implies will be enforced, but it needs humans to speak up for the animals. Thankyou for speaking up yourself! (Even if first few times round we get ignored and laughed out of court!)
Mary
It's a great idea to ask the animal rights lawyer about this, Mary, but I suspect there will be some way out of it for the animal breeders...it's a massive vested interest after all, an 'industry' with a huge annual turnover, and an integral necessity for industrial agriculture.
But if it was possible to launch a legal challenge, at least it would create publicity and bring these horrendous practices to public attention...which should result in lots more people becoming vegan, even if AI isn't found to be illegal.
once in a while you can get shown the light
in the strangest of places if you look at it right
This is reminding me of that program called 'The Farm' which really highlighted the sexual abuse which goes on in the farming industry. I was suprised when 'the public' didn't react more to it.
I agree that it will not work the first time around. Or even the second or third, but it would raise public awareness of the fact that animals are sexually abused in the flesh industry. This would hopefully stop a lot of people from consuming the flesh and other products of the victims. This would hasten the day when there will be enough vegans around that we can get a ban on animal sexual abuse as well as every other abuse of other species.kokopelli
What do you think?
Get on the phone to your AR lawyer asap Mary
I just remembered the article in Gwlad was actually about a new technique called 'embryo flushing', which they do because lots of cows these days have become infertile, so they grow embryos in one cow and then 'flush' them out of her womb to implant them into other cows. The man with his arm up the cow's vagina was engaged in 'embryo flushing'.
I agree it's a good idea to test the law out, if that's at all feasible.
once in a while you can get shown the light
in the strangest of places if you look at it right
If only human's had the capacity to understand animals emotions, needs and desires.
Humans (as a species) seem to comprehend so little about the feelings of other species.
Aren't eggs basically like little wombs to keep the chick safe? I was wondering that the other day, I mean, if the white squidgy bit (someone told me that's called the chalaza) would have been the chick's umbilical cord, then isn't the yolk basically like a placenta and the egg white is the same as amniotic fluid?
If you look at a fertilised egg, you can see a little spot of blood on the yolk, and I think that's where the embryo develops. From what I remember from school biology, the yolk contains a balance of nutrients which nourish the growing chick, and once that's all used up, the white of the egg gives protein which it needs for its final growth spurt before hatching...and those wiggly white thread bits keep the yolk in the centre of the white.
But I may be wrong...
Just checked and you're right, the twisted albumen threads are called chalaza.
once in a while you can get shown the light
in the strangest of places if you look at it right
Oh gawd...the thought makes me want to vomit. You know, I should have known long before I went vegan that I should be vegan: I used to always have to take those white embryo bits out of my eggs before cooking them and doing so would make me want to gag. Ugh.
That's what I've discovered via TV & sites too.kokopelli
Eggs are precious little miracles, they're not ment to be thrown at John Prescott (surely there's something more apropriate! )
Try rotten tomatoes.
That's been suggested for wearers of others fur too!
(Good thinking Mary)
Or take a leaf out of Prescott's own book, and just throw a punch.
Now now surely non-violent is better!
Couldn't you deep thought him to fall into a puddle!
That little spot of blood isn't an embryo. If a chicken get stressed out while the egg is forming, blood vessels rupture and sometimes remain in the egg...which makes me wonder just how stressed the chicken has to be, since most eggs don't have it, and most chickens live pretty stressful lives.kokopelli
"The question is not, can they reason? Nor, can they talk? But, can they suffer?"--Jeremy Bentham
One of my uncles is a chicken farmer, and he kept them in sheds. He used to go really bonkers when these spots turned up, because it meant there was a cockerel in the shed - sometimes they become quite fully formed. They don't tend to get too big though, because the hens can't incubate them. They roll down. In a shed of 1/4 of a million chickens there will be cockerels that escaped the mincing process. Think how stressed they must be, surrounded by so many females, and unable to defend them.
So I think it is genuinely a fertilised egg, and not stress that causes these spots. Because every single hen I have ever met who was in one of these places was stressed to the extent that they were bald, flinching, excreting in fear - some of them have just dropped dead with fright. People say "stress" perhaps to alleviate their feeling of squeamishness about eating tiny baby birds.
But I could be wrong!
"Q: WHAT CAUSES BLOOD SPOTS?
A: Small spots of blood (sometimes called "meat" spots) are occasionally found in an egg yolk. These do not indicate a fertile egg; they are caused by the rupture of a blood vessel on the yolk surface during formation of the egg. Most eggs with blood spots are removed during the grading process but a few may escape detection. As an egg ages, water moves from the albumen into the yolk, diluting the blood spot. Thus, a visible blood spot actually indicates a fresh egg. Such eggs are suitable for consumption. The spot can be removed with the tip of a knife, if you wish."
This is from the American Egg Board. Honestly, even though I''m thankful for the information, why do only the egg, meat and dairy industries have Boards? What happened to the Broccoli Board? Or the Strawberry Board? I suppose people don't need to be convinced that broccoli is good for you...
"The question is not, can they reason? Nor, can they talk? But, can they suffer?"--Jeremy Bentham
Yuck!
i would rather see all my friends and family eating free range/organic meats than the ones they do now.
at the very least you can be assured that the conditions that the free range/organic animal lived in were better than those of the factory farm animals... (before they were slaughtered).
but it is still flesh, not everyone rocks as much as we vegans do though.
the aim of life is to live, and to live means to be aware, joyously, dunkenly, serenely, divinely aware.
-henry miller
I guess something that has been addressed on other threads but not here is that organic/free range meats are actually a distraction from factory farming issues rather than a solution. If a person is offended by the conditions in factory farms, and is told or believes they can combat this by eating organic meat, they don't realise they are still supporting factory farming through the use of by-products like gelatine or leather that as vegans they would abstain from.
There are animal welfare organisations here in Australia that push organic/free range meats as the answer to factory farming and this is undoing alot of the good work done over the last three decades by animal rights groups. Organic meats are a compromise, therefore as an activist I am against them.
As for eggs however (off topic I know), while free range egg production is just barely less evil than that of battery eggs, I know people who have chooks in their yard that live well and they eat the eggs they lay (never sell them though). I am not opposed to that, as the hens are just living their life and are looked after rather than 'used'. I also know vegans who have hens and choose not to eat the eggs. Personally I don't see a difference, if the animal is looked after... and in the case of unfertilised eggs layed by hens 9 out of 10 times they are abandoned by the mother when she knows they will not produce chicks so it is not like she is missing anything either.
Well, I suppose it is a slight improvement, and for those who refuse to give up meat, then it's probably the least disagreeable option.
They sell the hens' eggs? This does not sound like a reputable operation. I know "rescues" are not required to follow any guidelines and many breed and trade in animals, but accredited sanctuaries have to follow professional standards. The first rule is usually that the animals must not be bred, or otherwise allowed to breed. The second rule is, "No use of animals for any commercial activity that is exploitive in nature" (American Sanctuary Association); or "Use of the animals in commercial activities is prohibited" (The Association of Sanctuaries). The buying, selling, trading or otherwise treating animals of a sanctuary, and their by-products, as resources is wrong.harpy
The animals of the world exist for their own reasons. They were not made for humans any more than black people were made for whites or women for men. —Alice Walker
I dun think I will, firstly because I dunno what the hen is thinking..what if she thought her eggs are gonna hatch into chicks? (just a wierd idea ). Secondly, the egg is part of the hen reproductive cycle... this reminds me of human biology... and the reproductive system and cycle, and I m kinda turn off from eating egg.tails4wagging
Good point - makes egg eating sound kinkier than ever!rujoon
I would say that eating eggs is probably quite a natural thing for humans, though.
I'm not saying it's natural to treat chickens the way they are, but I could see how ancient man would probably regard eggs as a tasty treat if he found them while foraging for nuts and berries. I suspect that quite a few predominantly veggie species would, too, along with the odd insect.
Overall, though, I don't want/need to eat them (eggs or insects ).
It's also natural to hit a person on the head when you are angry with him.
Now that you mentioned it... how would this sound... PeTA's anti-leather campain says " Wear your own skin - let animals have theirs ". Similarly an anti-egg campain would be " Eat your own egg - let hens have theirs"..rujoon
Life is like a boomerang: What goes around comes around - "Karma"rocks!
Well, i've had chickens basically my entire life, and i know if eggs didnt gross me out so bad i would eat there eggs. Why? because unless the egg is fertilised the hen will usually just leave it to rot. But, since i have alot of alternatives to eggs and its not nessecary, id probabyl jsut feed them the eggs. In nature, chickens will often eat unfertilised eggs, jsut as many animals eat after birth, because it is packed with nutrients. I've never had a chicken get upset with me taking their eggs (although they did whenever my dog did!), unless she was trying to incubate them. Then, look out!! Chickens are damned good mothers, and if those eggs are fertilised, you'll know, because shes not gonna give them up without a fight.
"You'd better take care of me lord, otherwise you're gonna have me on your hands" - Hunter S. Thompson
I'm ovo-vegetarian at the moment. I do not wear anything that came from an animal, and try my best to buy products that haven't been tested. I try to live the vegan lifestyle, and the only thing that's keeping me from "labeling" (ergh, gotta hate that word) myself vegan are the eggs, which I had intended to stop eating this month.
But I've been thinking -- and believe me, I've been thinking hard -- about this, and I came to the conclusion that eating eggs is... okay. Or at least not necessarily cruel or ethically wrong.
You see, the only eggs that I eat are bought at the local market from people I am sure treat their chickens well. I know these chickens are not fed crap, I know they are cage-free, and I know they have a good life. Yes, they probably get killed and eaten when they get old, but their lives are no living hell. Outside (and inside, too) of the house I try to avoid eggs as much as possible, and I only really use them in cakes because all my vegan cakes turn out icky.
So my question is, is there anything wrong with eating these eggs? Besides health reasons, like cholesterol and salmonella, which I am well aware of, is there any reason why eating these eggs wouldn't be okay? I mean, they are cruelty-free.
Opinions?
For relaxing times, make it Suntory time.
Well done for all of the other steps that you are taking. The thing is, that as vegans we feel that it is wrong for chickens to be killed. They are only alive because they are giving eggs. When that stops they die. If people did not eat eggs, there would be no need for the chickens that you talk about, to die.SuntoryTime
I won't go into factory farming and chickens because you are talking about free range. One thing to note though is that even eggs from markets can be intensively farmed. Don't believe all that you are told. The sellers know some people might not buy them if they tell the truth.
The whole point of veganism is to live as cruelty free life as possible and eating the eggs that you talk about is not in line with that.
I am sure there are others who can explain in more detail why eggs are disgusting from the point of view of what they actually are.
However, I am just coming at this from the point of view of the chickens right to live.
ConciousCuisine has an interesting egg analogy: since eggs are nothing more than the byproduct of chickens' menstrual cycles, eating them is basically tantamount to sucking on a tampon.
I believe ConciousCuisine would have good insight for this thread.
SurfNSun: Thank you for the disgusting imagery. :P
Kumen: Good point... So if the chickens got to live their lives peacefully until they die of natural causes, the eggs would be okay? Or is it the fact that the chickens are kept just because of their eggs and not, say, kept as pets, that is wrong here?
For relaxing times, make it Suntory time.
I think what you need to do is ask yourself whether you think it is wrong or right.SuntoryTime
The point is not just the killing of the chickens, but that they are not products, their eggs are their eggs. To take them without permission is stealing. If you took a female humans eggs then you would be punished. Vegans believe that animals have rights. They just don't belong to us and taking them suggests that the animal is not important enough to not steal from.
Aside from that, we do not need to eat them. There is no reason to eat them. I like the taste, but I like the taste of meat too. If you want to live a cruelty free lifestyle then that becomes secondary to the rights of the animals.
Also, how many chickens get to live their lives peacefully? Not many. So it is kind of a hypothetical question, like 'what if you were stranded on a desert island with only a chicken. Would you eat it?"
I just wrote a text on my blog, that talks about egg consumption, and on the death and suffering that all forms of egg production imply (included organic or free range, of course). I would like to know peoples opinions.
You can read it:
http://www.thinkvegan.net/item/34/
The photos were taken by myself and my boyfriend at a market in Spain, yes in some places here, animals are still sold at street markets.
Does anyone have any facts about why eggs are so bad to eat (for health, primarily, not the chicks so much, I don't think that argument will work as well with the person I am having this discussion with).
She eats about 10 eggs a week, I just think that is so unhealthy, but other than point out about all the cholesterol, I am not being veru successful at putting forward a brilliant explanation for giving up eggs for the sake of her health if not for the sake of the chickens. Thanks. Should this be a new thread on it's own - Eggs, why they are unhealthy?
I've heard that the gov't recommends no more than 3 eggs per week to remain healthy, because they really are loaded with cholesterol. I did a quick search and found out that the RDA of cholesterol is no more than 200 mg, and one egg contans 213 mg. So if your friend eats one egg, she better not eat any more animal products for the rest of the day if she wants to stay healthy! It also contains a moderate amount of fat (5 g per egg). And I suppose all that protein could prevent calcium absorption.
Usually I get through to people better when I talk about the fact that eggs are byproducts of chicken periods. When human women get their period, it's because they're ovulating, and when I ask my friends if they would eat a human unfertilised egg if it was large enough, they of course say no. But why is it less disgusting to eat something that comes from a chicken's vagina? To quote another thread, some people really don't get it!
"Man can do as he wills, but not will as he wills" - Arthur Schopenhauer
who cares if it is healthy or unhealthy, we just don't eat eggs. Don't be concerned for your friend's health Kam, I'm sure she is eating a lot more crap than just eggs.
Eve
She's actually cut right back on meat, not veggie yet by any stretch, but I have helped her see that so much meat was bad for her, and she understands that. I am just working on the eggs at the moment! One step at a time! I think I will try the chicken period line!!!eve
personally i think it is the most bizarrething to eat!not bringing any morals into it even.
why would u eat a chickens egg?an unfertilized foetus?why?who decided this was edible!
I totally agree. This is esentially what ive been trying to say, its just been summed up alot better. If i were to have chickens again, i may not eat thier eggs because i do find it gross, but id be more then willing to share them with friends, especially if they could have the eggs of my happy chickens as opossed to the eggs of chickens that are treated like crap.cog505
"You'd better take care of me lord, otherwise you're gonna have me on your hands" - Hunter S. Thompson
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