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Vegans and eggs - Page 2
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Thread: Vegans and eggs

  1. #51

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    Default Why are organic eggs / meat unethical?

    I was just wondering what other vegans thought of Organic/free range meat. Veganism is best but I know loads of people who just would never become vegan. The most to hope from them is that they make some effort to source their meat instead of getting facory farming which I feel is much much crueller then organic or free range meat.

    I also think anyone who starts sourcing their meat is going in the right direction. It annoys me sometimes when some people seem to put all meat in the same catagree as it's likely to put people off doing anything at all if a switch from battery to organic/free range is not incouraged.

    Organic meat is very expensive so people will naturally have to eat less meat. Which means they get to sample more veggie/vegan food and hopefully they decide meat is too expensive and decide to become veggie/vegan instead.

    Plus Organic/free range meat is good for our carniverous/omnivoure pets.

    (I meant to make this a poll but doesn't seem to have worked this time)

  2. #52
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    Well, at the end of the day Meat is always dead animal, and the animal is butchered the same way, isn't it???

    Of course, I much prefer to see animals free-ranging, and like you say, at least the minority of people are giving some thought to what they eat.

    On the other hand it gives a rather mixed message when the RSPCA are actively promoting Meat of any kind (as they do with Organic/Free-range), in my opinion. Kind of like saying that Domestic Violence is ok as long as it's only occasional.

  3. #53

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    I think that less unneccessary cruelty goes into killing organic meat althought they do still get killed.

    I once went to an intensive pig unit. That's what decided me to source my meat and stop eating pork. I wouldn't have become a veggie though as I used to believe I had a RIGHT to eat meat.

    I don't know about RSPCA. They are doing something and getting unpopular because of it. I was more influenced by Compasion in world farming. They are running an 'eat less meat' compaign. Their method worked with me wheras I wouldn't have listened to someone telling me 'meat is murder'.

    At the end of the day the sooner factory farming is banned the better. If RSPCA and compason for world farming's method works better for some people (which it did for me)that should be incouraged too.

  4. #54
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    I wish they'd put a warning on packets of Meat, like the cigarette ones, something like:
    'WARNING, THIS MEAT MAY DAMAGE YOUR HEALTH - AND CERTAINLY DAMAGED THE HEALTH OF THE ANIMAL INVOLVED'.

  5. #55

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    I wouldn't be against that. it would deffinately NOT go down with the meat industry at all who are busy telling everyone meat is good for you etc etc... lots of BS on 'healthy eating' seem to say you must eat meat. Including one in a braille magazine I get. I wrote to correct them but my letter was not published. They should at least tell people to source their meat.

    Sadly not enough people bother. My dad eats some organic/free range meat but he eats battery too. Another meat eating friend says he would like meat to be free range but doesn't bother to do anything about it. I once got him some organic bacon in the hope the taste would perswade him to switch. He just said he could get them cheaper locally. I asked if they were also Organic/free range but he didn't know so they probably weren't. Unfortunately another meat eating friend told me she prefered the taste of battery chicken dispite knowing how cruelly they were treated (how depressing).

  6. #56

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    Organic meat is not free-range, and there is no standard for the label "free-range," so neither mean anything to me, and besides, killing an animal is always wrong (to me, in my opinion) regardless of its life beforehand.

  7. #57
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    I think it was animals that were murdered . I think it's a big marketing gimmick to get people who think they are compassionate to continue eating corpses (I fell for it for a couple of years )

  8. #58
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    Quote dreama
    I was just wondering what other vegans thought of Organic/free range meat. Veganism is best but I know loads of people who just would never become vegan. The most to hope from them is that they make some effort to source their meat instead of getting facory farming which I feel is much much crueller then organic or free range meat.
    If I were not against killing others for food, I'd probably agree that killing someone who had been eating organic food was much less cruel than killing someone who had been eating organic food. For someone who doesn't respect that an animal has a right to live, just like a human has (even if they are different), there might be a big difference between killing an organic/free range animal and another one. But, when it comes to life and death, just like in the case of killing a human, it's not really important from an ethical point of view if the one that was killed were living on organic health food or junk food before someone shot him. It's obvious that it's better to live as a free-range/organic human or animal than to be be captured and live on junk food, but when it comes to life and death, and especially death, there is no difference. If someone kills someone for his own pleasure or old habits, the victim is dead anyway.

    I also think anyone who starts sourcing their meat is going in the right direction.
    There's also a rather realistic chance they they will not going in the right direction: they feel better if they switch to organic meat if they agree with you that one of the solutions is 'much, much less crueller' than the other, and the urge to change their lives might just disappear. Humans are known for being able to live their whole life continuing patterns they're not really happy with.

    It annoys me sometimes when some people seem to put all meat in the same catagree as it's likely to put people off doing anything at all if a switch from battery to organic/free range is not incouraged.
    Do you really think a non-vegan really would be put off by knowing that a vegan - that he doesn't agree with in the first place - consider a dead animal a dead animal independent on how it lived before it was killed? If a disagreement from someone he already disagrees with will keep him from doing anything at all, his motivation must be extremely low, and a possible change in his life wouldn't maybe last that long anyway.

    Organic meat is very expensive so people will naturally have to eat less meat.
    In countries where they make alcohol or tobacco very expensive, one of the most important side effects is that the people who use this stuff get poorer.

    Which means they get to sample more veggie/vegan food and hopefully they decide meat is too expensive and decide to become veggie/vegan instead.
    Or they will possibly avoid buying organic meat and continue buying non-organic meat instead.

    The only way to real change is insight, not manipulating prices. If vegans should spend their time and energy on communicating a totally different kind of insight then they believe in, the result would be - less insight communicated. The meat industry, the sugar industry and the tobacco industry have been getting a lot of resistance lately, and the meat industry are probably willing to do whatever they can to keep the illusion 'eating meat is OK'-illusion alive, including giving the animals slightly better conditions. HAve you seen the thread about this topic, called 'What do you reckon the meat industry does to save itself (and fight veg*nism?)?' http://www.veganforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=804
    I will not eat anything that walks, swims, flies, runs, skips, hops or crawls.

  9. #59
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    Quote Artichoke47
    ...killing an animal is always wrong (to me, in my opinion) regardless of its life beforehand.
    It's wrong to you, in your opinion, and to all other vegans, in their opinions. And it's definitely wrong for those who get killed.
    I will not eat anything that walks, swims, flies, runs, skips, hops or crawls.

  10. #60
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    Quote PinkFluffyCloud
    On the other hand it gives a rather mixed message when the RSPCA are actively promoting Meat of any kind (as they do with Organic/Free-range), in my opinion. Kind of like saying that Domestic Violence is ok as long as it's only occasional.
    Did anyone see Bill Bailey on Comic Aid (for the Tsunami Appeal)? He was talking about vegetarianism, it was quite funny I thought. Eg 'I'm a post-modern vegetarian- I eat meat ironically.'

    Anyway he was like 'RSPCA monitored chicken always makes me laugh. I used to think, it's obviously not twenty-four hour, is it, this monitoring? Cos at some point someone's grabbed it, ripped its wings off, and wrapped them in cellophane. What was it, did they nip outside for a smoke or something? "Oh SHIT, we've lost another one!"'

    I really liked that, I thought it showed up the whole doublethink of the stuff. I think Bill Bailey's pretty cool, he's always talking about vegetarianism, and veganism sometimes. He was going on about hunting too. Does anyone know if he's a veg*n?

    xxx

  11. #61

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    Quote Korn
    It's wrong to you, in your opinion, and to all other vegans, in their opinions. And it's definitely wrong for those who get killed.
    Yeah. I was putting in a filter which I'll call "HTT-not," so somehow, even though I'm expressing my views pertaining to myself and speaking only for myself, I shouldn't be accused of being judgmental. I guess it doesn't happen on this site, but I sort of felt it coming.

  12. #62
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    i have heard of people who used to be vegetarian, but switched to eating organic meat because they believed it was morally acceptable. so in that case, it would actually be steering people even further away from the right direction.

    also, organic animal farming, whilst probably being better conditions for animals, is actually worse for the environment, using up much more natural resources than factory farming. the animals are fed better, get more space and water, which means that production of organic meat is even more wasteful.

    p.s. Shisha, i saw Bill Bailey live a couple of years ago and i don't believe he is veg*n but he's really funny.
    'The word gorilla was derived from the Greek word Gorillai (a "tribe of hairy women")'

  13. #63
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    Good Points, Gorilla.

  14. #64

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    I disagree. Organic is better for the environment and they have higher standards of animal care. Of course killing is always killing which is why I'm vegan but it's the evil factory farming that we should focus on. I'm all for CIWF which say to stop eating meat but if you won't at leat eat Organic/free range.

    Some vegitarians may decide to switch to organic meat but I can imagine the reverse happening more often. When I was a fishitarian I wasn't against genuine organic/free range meat at all but the price and the uncertainty of wether it really was genuinely free range kept me from eating meat (except sea fish. I gave that up at the same time as eggs and dairy products).

    The point is factory farming is much much worse so we should get it banned first before we go on to anything else.

  15. #65
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    Quote dreama
    I was just wondering what other vegans thought of Organic/free range meat.
    There is something better, and they are being deprived of it. Why should an organic / free-range animal be any more deserving of an unnecessary death than any other animal ?

    Quote dreama
    Organic meat is very expensive so people will naturally have to eat less meat. Which means they get to sample more veggie/vegan food and hopefully they decide meat is too expensive and decide to become veggie/vegan instead.
    Even when healthy foods are affordable and accessible people continue to eat unhealthily, experts have warned. Trials of supplying health foods to communities without good access have disappointing results, according to the British Medical Journal. Cost isn't the issue.

    Nonhuman animals deserve to live according to their own natures, free from harm, abuse, and exploitation. This goes further than just saying that we should treat animals well while we exploit them, or before we kill and eat them. It says animals have the right to be free from human cruelty and exploitation, just as humans possess this right.

  16. #66
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    Quote Kelzie in the The definition of the word 'vegan' thread
    They were strutting in the yard, rolling in the dirt, just being chickens. Now I'm no expert on the state of mind of chickens, but those chickens were not unhappy in any way, and the eggs were just a by-product.

    Personally, I think the chickens could care less if their eggs were sold. But if you think that the chickens feel exploited, that's fine
    Just a by-product ?? Were there equal numbers of male and female chickens ?? Wild hens rarely lay unfertilized eggs don't they ?? Isn't it the ability to keep laying that the egg farmer exploits and in doing so frustrating one of the hen's most fundamental instincts, to reproduce ??

  17. #67
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    No, there were no males. I don't know about wild hens not laying unfertilized eggs, but these hens were. And if you became a vegan with the view of never exploiting animals, than eating those eggs would not only by un-vegan, but wrong. I became a vegan to minimize animal suffering. So me eating those eggs was certainly not vegan, but it wasn't wrong *for me*.
    "The question is not, can they reason? Nor, can they talk? But, can they suffer?"--Jeremy Bentham

  18. #68
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    And what do you think happened to those males? And what will happen to these hens? Can you say for sure that they will die of old age? Of course they won't. You let someone undermine your values in the manner that someone would use sophism to outsmart a child.

    In any case, vegans don't believe in exploiting animals. Sure, some people have no choice but to exploit animals but I, as a vegan have a choice and so do you.

  19. #69
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    Quote wuggy
    I think if a vegan ate them it could be the start of the 'slippery slope' thing - if you eat eggs, why not try a few other similar products.
    If you eat eggs, you are not a vegan.
    I don't see veganism as an exclusive club, I see it as a lifestyle definition - you're either vegan or not.
    Guess I'm not a vegan then?
    Probably about once a year, I eat eggs which my mum's friend has given me. She has pet chickens, they lay eggs, she and her family use those eggs. Occasionally she will give me a box of them- like I said, about once a year.
    I really do not see the problem with it- though it depends on why you are a vegan I suppose, if it's for health reasons you'd probably not want to eat eggs.
    I am definitely NOT on a slippery slope, or even a gentle incline.

    I don't feel it's exploiting the hens. I also do not come up against any omnis calling me a hypocrite or what have you for eating them. I've never seen a problem with it. I think it's probably a personal issue. Plus I don't know if I'd eat them again cos I'd probably feel sick this time round, it's been so long.

  20. #70
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    No, you are not a vegan, Shisha Fiend. You are an ovo-vegetarian.
    It's very simple. Vegans don't (intentionally) eat eggs.
    If you ate chicken, in a way you wouldn't be hurting the chicken either.

    If you eat eggs, please don't tell people that you are a vegan. I'm not condemning you. I'm not telling you how to live you life. I'm not making you walk the plank. I just ask that if you respect those of us who try our best to avoid all animal products, you will not try to change the meaning of the word "vegan" to suit your lifestyle. Thank you.

  21. #71
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    The reason for not eating eggs is, naturally chicks of both sexes are equally likely to hatch from a fertilised egg, but chicken farmers only need hens to produce more eggs, so the male chicks are usually killed at birth and sold as pet food, to people who keep birds of prey or snakes.

    It's a bit like with milk, only cows are needed for the herd, so the male calves are usually killed soon after birth, for veal.

    I have a friend who keeps chickens, who is a vegetarian, and she ended up with lots of cockerels in her garden, because she didn't want to kill them. Which isn't really practical in the long term, particularly for commercial producers.

    I looked after her chickens for her once, and I was glad when she took them back. They have some gross habits, I saw one of them eating a dead mouse.

  22. #72
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    Quote Shisha Fiend
    Of course I would! That's nothing like eating an egg from a pet chicken. The chicken would have to be killed for one thing, which cannot be done without, well, killing it. Which is harming it. How is eating these eggs the same thing?
    Once the chicken is dead she can't feel a thing. You did not kill her so why not eat her flesh? Maybe the chicken even died of natural causes.

    I do avoid animal products, because I know they are obtained by harming the animals, treating them in a purely disgusting way. I have a moral reason for not eating, lactic acid for example. Which most non-vegans wouldn't think twice about (unless they had an allergy).
    Comercial lactic acid is made by bacteria, not milk. Lactic acid has nothing to do with this.

    You could say I am not a vegan because I ate these eggs a year ago, but then again, 14 years ago I ate a piece of meat. Does that mean I'm not a vegetarian?
    Or is it cos hypothetically speaking, if the eggs were there I would eat them? Therefore even though I do not use/consumen any animal products, the fact that I might means I'm not vegan?
    You are not a vegan because you eat eggs. You find nothing wrong with eating eggs and you plan to eat them again.


    What I'm really asking for is a reason why not to eat the eggs? If this is explained to me and I agree with I will stop eating them, but at the moment I can't think of a reason not to.
    xxx
    Have you read the rest of this thread? The eggs do not belong to you. They belong to the chickens.

    It's fine if you want to eat eggs but please don't drag our name down with you.

  23. #73
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    Quote kokopelli
    The reason for not eating eggs is, naturally chicks of both sexes are equally likely to hatch from a fertilised egg, but chicken farmers only need hens to produce more eggs, so the male chicks are usually killed at birth and sold as pet food, to people who keep birds of prey or snakes.

    It's a bit like with milk, only cows are needed for the herd, so the male calves are usually killed soon after birth, for veal.
    I know that, of course. That's why I don't drink milk. It's also why I don't eat eggs (except these ones we are now debating!).

    However, I know this woman has only female hens, so there is no question of fertilized eggs/male chicks.
    So what is the problem with eating these eggs?

  24. #74
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    Its a menstrual period and its that chicken's menstrual period. Why would you want to eat it? If it's because it tastes good, then your opening the floodgates for vegans to eat a piece of roadkill because it tastes good or a free gift of murdered animal because it tastes good. The definition of vegan precludes consuming animal products even if one thinks it is justified.

  25. #75
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    Quote feline01
    Its a menstrual period and its that chicken's menstrual period. Why would you want to eat it?
    Plenty do. I know what an egg is. Seeds are plant embryos, I'd still eat them. I suppose because it tastes nice, yes, although I have to say the idea makes my stomach turn now, recently I've become revolted by any dairy or eggs- before only meat used to do that to me (I've been vegetarian since I was four!) but now dairy and eggs are starting to. So for that reason I would not eat the eggs- although ethically, I cannot see a problem.

    If it's because it tastes good, then your opening the floodgates for vegans to eat a piece of roadkill because it tastes good or a free gift of murdered animal because it tastes good.
    This is what I'm saying. I don't see how it does that. It doesn't 'lead on' to anything, there are no floodgates. My first vegan Christmas I was at my uncle's, who had no clue about veganism. I basically survived on the bare minimum for a week- half a nut loaf and two potatoes is probably all I ate the whole time. Eating these eggs doesn't make me at all inclined to say 'screw it, I'll eat meat just the once.' It just doesn't.

    The definition of vegan precludes consuming animal products even if one thinks it is justified.
    But why? Isn't that pretty pointless? To not eat something, just because? For no real reason?

    I really want to understand the problem with eating the eggs- I mean one that doesn't involve slippery slopes, or confusion over definitions. Like an actual reason to be against them initially, like we have for the meat, dairy, and egg industries. Once I've got that, I'll stop eating them- which is pretty hypothetical because I don't plan to eat any more anyway for taste reasons.

    xxx

  26. #76
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    Quote Shisha Fiend
    I know that, of course. That's why I don't drink milk. It's also why I don't eat eggs (except these ones we are now debating!).

    However, I know this woman has only female hens, so there is no question of fertilized eggs/male chicks.
    So what is the problem with eating these eggs?
    She had to get her hens from somewhere, and somewhere along the line, it's inevitable that culling of male chicks was involved. If she allows her hens to hatch some of their eggs to replace her existing hens when they get too old (does she kill them when they become 'unproductive', BTW, or does she carry on feeding them regardless?), she will either have cockerels she doesn't need, or she'll have to kill them when they're chicks, just like commercial producers. If she's been keeping hens for a while, and has no males, she must have been culling male chicks, otherwise she would now have a more-or-less equal numbers of hens and cocks. Cocks are a nuisance, I don't think anyone would really want many of them, because of their crowing. Actually I've got the feeling my friend may have accidentally-on-purpose allowed a fox to get at hers, thus solving the problem.

    Anyway, eggs are full of cholesterol. Is it that you really want to carry on eating them, or just that you don't like to refuse your relative's well-intentioned gift?

  27. #77
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    Default veganmike quoting prof Gary Francione from another thread

    If we are serious about animal rights, we have a responsibility to stop bringing them into existence for our purposes. We would stop bringing all domestic animals into existence for human purposes.

  28. #78
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    Quote Shisha Fiend
    The hens are still young, but I expect she would buy new ones when they die- at which point your above ethical qualm comes into play.
    Buying another body doesn't sound like a practice a vegan would be involved in, imo.

  29. #79
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    Quote gertvegan
    If we are serious about animal rights, we have a responsibility to stop bringing them into existence for our purposes. We would stop bringing all domestic animals into existence for human purposes.
    I totally agree. Wild, free animals could have their space back if it wasn't all cluttered up with human-manipulated domestic animals.

    I'm glad you realise about the male chick thing now, Shisha Fiend. If they weren't being killed all the time, there'd be as many cocks as hens in the world. But of course that would never happen because it wouldn't be in the interest of humans.

    And I don't know about your relative's chickens, but the ones I looked after were pretty horrible, really. Even though they had all the space they could use and ran free, etc., they still picked on the weakest one. The expression 'hen-pecked' doesn't come out of nowhere. One of the poor chickens constantly had a bald backside due to pecking by the others. I was really glad when my friend took them back, and as far as I'm concerned, keeping animals at all is a total pain. I'm glad I don't have cats anymore too, because now I get to see the wild birds, mammals, amphibians and reptiles without them getting killed by my pets.

    And ALL animal products are actually an inefficient use of food, compared with eating the grain they're fed on directly. Even eggs, which are the most efficient form of animal protein.

    Have you tried tofu 'scrambled eggs'? It's tasty on toast, and nicer than real eggs.

  30. #80
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    Quote Shisha Fiend
    Sometimes it is, sometimes it comes from milk. Unless the source is marked on the ingredients, I won't eat lactic acid, in case it is made from milk. If you do, maybe you should call yourself a lacto-vegetarian rather than a vegan?
    If you showed me any proof that any form of the food additive lactic acid is derived from milk, I would avoid it immediately.

    On the other hand, we have given you plenty of reasons why eating eggs conflicts with vegan ethics but you still argue that vegans can eat eggs.

  31. #81
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    Quote Shisha Fiend
    As I said before she has not allowed any of them to breed- there are no males in the equation.
    Not allowed! Kept! Surely this is frustrating one of the hen's most fundamental instincts, to reproduce ??

  32. #82
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    Quote Shisha Fiend
    Do you have a mouse problem, just out of curiosity? I have found it impossible to stop mice getting at my food without a cat. Maybe that's just London for you.
    Yeah, we get mice and voles, but we catch them with humane mousetraps and let them go away from the house...and that means we don't get little offerings of dead mice any more, like we used to do when we had cats. One time, my cat left a dead mouse in my wellington boot.

    Your relative keeps the hens humanely, but as you acknowledged, there would inevitably have been killing of male chicks involved at some point, before she acquired the hens.

    Whether you think it's ethical to eat their eggs or not is entirely up to you of course, but I agree with others, that eating eggs even from humanely kept animals can't really be described as vegan.

  33. #83
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    Quote Shisha Fiend
    I hate scrambled eggs! When I was four my dad was eating them and my brother suddenly threw up ino my dad's plate- when you see how similar the two things look, you are put of scrambled eggs for life.
    Ha ha HA!! Ooooh, I'm laughing my head off!!!

    My understanding is that a fundamental precept of veganism is abstaining from the dietary consumption of anything containing animal proteins, even though there are various reasons why each person has turned to the lifestyle. Tails, it sounds like your friend's got a great heart, but she ain't vegan. She's ovo-vegetarian, by definition.


    But is it ethical?? Well, I might could be convinced otherwise on this, but I'm thinking it depends. If I have to choose between feeding my child an egg and letting him die of starvation, then I'd feed him the nasty thing out of desperation. But only out of desperation. I mean think about it - it's naaassstyyy! (imo)

  34. #84
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    "Lactic acid (B): acid produced by the fermentation of milk sugar but also by fermentation in pickles, cocoa and tobacco"

    Lactic acid is present in milk, yes. Everyone knows that. But as far as I know, they don't take lactic acid out of milk and add it to vegetarian food. I've actually checked into it. Good thing I don't eat anything with lactic acid anyway. If I knew that all you needed was a list with "eggs" written on it, I would have provided that.

    In any case, you are not a vegan. You are a parasite to chickens. You cannot say, "I am healthy without eating flesh." You can pretend to be a vegan but if you eat eggs you are not. Let the chickens eat their own eggs.

  35. #85
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    C'mon John, you don't have to be so mean. Just because somebody hasn't reached where you are in the vegan journey doesn't give you the right to call someone a parasite, or in my case, saying I was outwitted like a child. The people that haven't reached your level of "perfection" yet need your support and encouragement, not your scorn. What convinced me that I was wrong about eggs wasn't yours or Mr Pearbody's somewhat harsh messages. It was Korn nicely agreeing to change the subject, and then just asking one question very nicely.
    "The question is not, can they reason? Nor, can they talk? But, can they suffer?"--Jeremy Bentham

  36. #86
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    I'm not being mean. I would rather be discussing other things and conversing with vegans but when someone comes on a vegan forum and says something like, "I'm a vegan, but I eat eggs" I feel that it is my duty to at least set the record straight.

    Fiend is a stubborn person who wants to change the definition of "vegan" to suit her lifestyle. That offends me.

    And I never said that I am a perfect person but it is pretty simple to stick to the basic rules of veganism like "no eggs."

  37. #87
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    Calling someone a parasite is mean, whether they have offended you or not. You offended me when you said I was "outwitted like a child", but I didn't start slinging hurtful names. In fact, when I first asked questions about ethical eggs, I agreed that vegans don't eat eggs, which seems to be your main problem with fiend.

    As to your belief that fiend is a stubborn individual, it seems that he/she is an intelligent person that believes her/his opinions when he/she can prove them. When he/she can't ("the fact that buying the hens in the first place supports the egg industry indirectly, and the fact that buying any animal undermines its status as an individual being. I have acknowledged both points") she acknowledges it. That does not seem like a stubborn person to me.

    I am not trying to attack you. I believe you are a smart guy (as shown by your opinion on Bush : )). I was a lurker for a while, and the reason I didn't want to start posting, was a thread I read were some poor part-time vegan was asking for help and was flamed off the forum. I (obviously) overcame the fear, and I'm glad I did, but I really second guessed my decision after posting my view on eggs and reading the responses. I know people usually don't mean to be critical, and that people here obviously feel strongly about their beliefs. But if responses to people who do not share your belief had a little more tact in them, this place might feel a little safer to newbies (like me ; )).
    "The question is not, can they reason? Nor, can they talk? But, can they suffer?"--Jeremy Bentham

  38. #88
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    hmmm...

    parasite n.
    (1) an animal or plant that lives in or on a host (another animal or plant); the parasite obtains nourishment from the host without benefiting or killing the host

    (2) Something that lives in, with, or on another organism and obtains benefits from the host, which it usually injures.

    (3) an organism that grows and feeds in or on another organism without benefiting the host organism. Most parasites are harmless, but some are deadly.

    (4) An organism that lives on or in an organism of a different species (the host) and derives nutrients at the expense of the host.

    If people aren;t actually living on the hens then they wouldn;t be parasitical by some definitions of parasites, although it is true that they are obtaining nourishment from the host without benefitting or killing the host.

    However, many do live with the birds or animals they nourish themselves with (or pay others to raise them / "live with" them on their behalf) and often do injure the host.

    I'm not trying to be mean - I just looked up the definition of "parasite" and this is what i found -
    http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&l...efine:parasite

    As for scrambled eggs, heh well, the first thing i had with eggs in - and the last as it happened to be - after it dawned on me what eggs actually were (ie waste menstrual produce and technically flesh) was scrambled eggs.
    I didn;t even usually eat scrambled eggs either, but i reckoned the texture might put me off them (i really didn;t want to eat them at all after starting to think about what i was eating) but hadn;t reckoned on quite how much it would... something about that spongy consistency really hit the message home for me and i was like....uh... I don;t think I'll eat eggs any more now.

    And I didn't it was easy-peasy too, even though i used to eat quite a lot of eggs.
    even free-range local hens just put menstrual waste in their eggs... even putting ethical issues asicde that would be kind of a hard fact to swallow if i wanted to keep eating 'em, you know ?

  39. #89
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    Sorry Shisha I just used Fiend cause it sounded fiesty. I was in the same place you were four or so days ago. I agree that it is not really clear why vegans can't eat ethically obtained eggs. After some..."convincing" by members of this forum, I've decided that chickens were not put on the earth to provide humans with eggs. Therefore, while the chickens might not mind it, eating eggs is using an animal to further your own human needs.
    "The question is not, can they reason? Nor, can they talk? But, can they suffer?"--Jeremy Bentham

  40. #90
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    Quote Kelzie
    Sorry Shisha I just used Fiend cause it sounded fiesty. I was in the same place you were four or so days ago. I agree that it is not really clear why vegans can't eat ethically obtained eggs. After some..."convincing" by members of this forum, I've decided that chickens were not put on the earth to provide humans with eggs. Therefore, while the chickens might not mind it, eating eggs is using an animal to further your own human needs.
    Hmm, but I find that a little tenuous. I'm not saying it isn't valid, but when my dietary/lifestyle habits come under the microscope (as they often do) not eating rescue eggs is something that I would find really hard, if not impossible, to defend.

    I don't see the harm in consuming what is effectively a waste product from the chickens, as long as they are not being exploited to produce it. For example, do you feel that if a peacock drops a feather, it is unethical to pick up that feather, take it home, and pin it on the wall? After all, in your opinion wouldn't that be 'using an animal to further your own human needs'?

    As for 'convincing', I am not sure why you put it in quotes but if you feel you were pressurised or emotionally blackmailed to change your eating habits, how worthwhile is the change, really? (If you don't and I have misunderstood it, sorry!)

    xxx

  41. #91
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    Ummm...yeah I got nothin. As for "you feel you were pressurised or emotionally blackmailed to change your eating habits, how worthwhile is the change, really?" It wasn't the pressure or emotional blackmail that forced me to change my eating habits, it was Korn's question (well okay, this isn't a direct quote, but close enough): is it only about not causing pain? And that is why I changed my opinion. Veganism can't only be about not causing pain.
    "The question is not, can they reason? Nor, can they talk? But, can they suffer?"--Jeremy Bentham

  42. #92
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    Quote Kelzie
    Veganism can't only be about not causing pain.
    Yes, I have just been reading over that thread in an attempt to understand the whole 'rescue hens eggs' thing. I believe the thread Korn was referring to, which sparked the question 'is it only about not causing pain?' was asking if it was okay to kill fish as according to the poster they did not feel pain (untrue of course).

    Obviously the answer was no, after all killing someone is killing someone, whether they feel pain or not. Therefore veganism is about respecting life, not just minimising suffering. However I don't see how consuming a waste product can be equated with killing an animal that does not feel pain (supposing such an animal existed).

    xxx

  43. #93
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    I...umm...well, you see...damn I don't know. I knew I should have taken debate class... I guess the only thing I got is that the whole process of eating eggs, and raising chickens for eggs is wrong, and indirectly, eating eggs from any hen as supporting that system.
    "The question is not, can they reason? Nor, can they talk? But, can they suffer?"--Jeremy Bentham

  44. #94
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    Quote Kelzie
    I...umm...well, you see...damn I don't know. I knew I should have taken debate class... I guess the only thing I got is that the whole process of eating eggs, and raising chickens for eggs is wrong, and indirectly, eating eggs from any hen as supporting that system.
    Yeah, like I said I can see now how eating eggs from pet hens who were bought from a trader would support that system, and have decided not to eat them. But I can't see how eating eggs from rescue hens is doing the same thing- after all the very definition of a rescue hen surely implies an undermining of the egg industry?

    It's frustrating for me as I can see there are many committed vegans, who I respect, who are against eating eggs from rescue hens- but I can't see why. I really want to understand before I make the decision myself to stop eating the eggs. As you said in a different thread, Kelzie- it would be wrong to stop eating the eggs, simply to conform to a definition of what a vegan is.
    After all if a vegan indulges in a boycott which I find pointless, what is the problem in being told I am not a vegan?

    However I feel that this is just not something most vegans would do, the whole vegan philosophy is structured and well thought out. I feel there must be a reason for this boycott but I can't understand it.
    The only thing I can think of is that perhaps the concept of rescue hens has come into existence after veganism- because it's the vegans doing the rescuing- and so there is not a sound, thought out position on the ethics of eating their eggs. However surely if this was the case it would be a matter of each to his/her own and the camp would be split- yet I find it 100% against eating the eggs. So I assume there must be a reason, somewhere.

    I just don't know what it is. Until I do, how can I defend a refusal to eat rescue hen eggs?

    Someone enlighten me please!

    xxx

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    As for the people eating the eggs helping the hens, the eating of the eggs doesn't actually help, the money does, and if those people did so to support the hens, they could simply donate money.

    As for the whole issue, in my mind, it's not your place to decide whether or not they need or want them. I wouldn't take them away even to feed dogs. They may not want them at all, but you can't ask and know for sure. Nature has it's own way of taking care of the eggs. The hens may eat them for a nutritional boost, or they may let them provide sustenence for the earth. It may not be the worst of crimes, but in my book, it is still a negative, a very low negative, but a negative when I want to be producing positives, not neutrals.

    Find a way to ask her, and let HER give them to you.

  46. #96
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    Quote snivelingchild
    As for the people eating the eggs helping the hens, the eating of the eggs doesn't actually help, the money does, and if those people did so to support the hens, they could simply donate money.
    Yes, but eating the eggs doesn't hurt, and a lot of people are not going to just give money to centres for rescued chickens. The eggs can be a vital means of funding these places.
    Also they can be given away or eaten, if the rescued chickens are kept as pets- in this case the people eating the eggs are benefitting the chickens by keeping them in a safe and happy environment.

    As for the whole issue, in my mind, it's not your place to decide whether or not they need or want them.
    As a child, I used to stay with my grandmother in the country occasionally, and once when I was there she was taking care of her neighbour's chickens. I was only about six so I didn't have the knowledge to query the ethical background to these chickens (as regards cockerels), but I know they were housed in a clean, spacious, safe hen-house, and allowed to roam free. Anyway every morning while I was staying with her I used to go across the road to the hens and take the eggs.
    It seemed they didn't mind at all, and though obviously I cannot prove that, when I am debating with omnis I point to animals' behaviour when asked for 'proof' that they are in pain- and I wouldn't want to jeopardise this argument by stating that even though hens appear happy they may stil be suffering. Otherwise you could say even though they appear to be suffering they may still be happy.

    As for deciding whether or not they need or want them, to me it comes back to the same question about the peacock's feather- would you take it home with you or leave it where it was? I cannot see an ethical reason not to take it with you, but surely you can't know 100% that the peacock doesn't need or want it.

    I hope I'm not coming across as rude, Sniv. I just want to make sure I have this thing clear in my mind.

    xxx

  47. #97
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    My mom uses manure in her garden....for all we know, the cow may have wanted it to stay where it was dropped
    "The question is not, can they reason? Nor, can they talk? But, can they suffer?"--Jeremy Bentham

  48. #98
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    Well, I've never heard of a feather being reused by a bird or manure by a cow, but occasionally a hen eats her eggs. That's good enough for me, it is very healthy for them.

  49. #99
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    Some animals eat their feces. Not sure if cows do though...
    "The question is not, can they reason? Nor, can they talk? But, can they suffer?"--Jeremy Bentham

  50. #100
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    Who wants to eat part of a chicken's reproductive system anyway? In principal it's no different from eating a human egg that will turn into a baby as well. I think it's disgusting a sick to eat any form of eggs even if the animals are treated well. I also think that people who see it as 'normal' need pyschological help.

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