Warning: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is deprecated, use preg_replace_callback instead in ..../includes/class_bootstrap.php(1419) : eval()'d code on line 151

Warning: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is deprecated, use preg_replace_callback instead in ..../includes/class_bbcode.php on line 2958
Vegans and eggs - Page 4
Page 4 of 11 FirstFirst ... 2 3 4 5 6 ... LastLast
Results 151 to 200 of 550

Thread: Vegans and eggs

  1. #151
    snivelingchild's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Lafayette, Louisiana, United S
    Posts
    1,022

    Default

    What do you do with the eggs?
    We boil up the eggs and feed them to the chickens. This is healthful, since chickens naturally eat any egg that isn't going to be hatched. Remember, the purpose of the egg is to nourish the growing chick. So, eggs contain all kinds of nutrients that are good for chickens. By hard boiling them and tearing them up, we can make sure that everybody gets some.

    from a Fam Sanctuary site FAQ

  2. #152
    snivelingchild's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Lafayette, Louisiana, United S
    Posts
    1,022

    Default

    This way, they can gain back all the nourishment they lose in laying the egg, thus requiring less resources. I think it makes alot of since, though I don't know why they take them, hrad boil them, then take them back. Maybe it's better for the hens?

    Either way, I say giving them back to the hens, or not taking them at all, is a much better choice to taking them for yourself.

  3. #153
    snivelingchild's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Lafayette, Louisiana, United S
    Posts
    1,022

    Default

    Oh, most of the hens probably don't have their full beaks and cannot peck through the shell, so they hard boil them to make them soft. That makes sense.

  4. #154
    Kelzie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Minnesota
    Posts
    60

    Default

    I'm a little sceptical about it being natural. First of all, as previously posted, chickens usually only eat eggs if they have a nutrition problem. If it were natural, they would eat them all the time. Second, I think as you previously poster, wild chickens do not lay unfertilized eggs. So where would they develop the instinct to eat them? Seems to be that any bird that "naturally" eats their eggs wouldn't last for long. And to me, taking a chicken's eggs, hardboiling it, and feeding it back to them seems a lot more intrusive than just taking it.
    "The question is not, can they reason? Nor, can they talk? But, can they suffer?"--Jeremy Bentham

  5. #155
    Kelzie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Minnesota
    Posts
    60

    Default

    I'm looking on some chicken breeder/egg layer forum right now for info. I feel like I'm going undercover or something. *cues in the james bond music*
    "The question is not, can they reason? Nor, can they talk? But, can they suffer?"--Jeremy Bentham

  6. #156
    snivelingchild's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Lafayette, Louisiana, United S
    Posts
    1,022

    Default

    Quote Kelzie
    And to me, taking a chicken's eggs, hardboiling it, and feeding it back to them seems a lot more intrusive than just taking it.
    They are allowing the animals a great source of nutrition, and just preparing them for the hens to make it easier on them. I don't see how that is worse than taking the eggs for yourself.

    I do understand about the natural, though. How are we to know what is natural in an unnatural animal? I hope you can find some good info. I seem to be getting all these different sources saying all different things about hens eating their eggs.

  7. #157
    Stephanie Peas'nHominy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Houston, Texas
    Posts
    196

    Default Imo

    Quote Kelzie
    So you think they should be taken from the chickens and thrown away?
    I think that would at least be better than eating them.

    Quote Kelzie
    IF I ate eggs, I wouldn't call myself a vegan. Vegans don't eat eggs. What I'm trying to figure out is why all vegans think it's always wrong?
    I'm not sure what all vegans think, but I do agree with what Astrocat was saying. I just don't believe that animals are meant to be our food nor meant to "produce" food for us, with their waste or by-products and such. I just don't think it should even be regarded or looked at as food at all.
    ----------------------
    I also think it is nasty, and I think animal proteins are harmful. It does tie into my ethics - to knowingly put nasty and harmful crap into my system is unethical, as I would not be being "compassionate" to my self, as I am an animal deserving compassion, just like those poor hens too.

    And yes, that means if I eat a lot of refined sugar, knowing it is harmful to my system, then I am not respecting my body or being considerate to my health, also. <<note to self...bummer >>

    (IMO my dear friends )

  8. #158
    Kelzie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Minnesota
    Posts
    60

    Default

    No...no good info. My stealth operation wasn't a huge success The Crazies were more interested in what to do with a hen once it started eating eggs (about half believed the only solution was culling...god I hate that word).

    PeasnHominy:
    Why would taking the egg and throwing it away be any less intrusive to the chicken than taking it and eating it. And this is a highly hypothetical question in which the chickens in question are rescue birds (bear with me ). So in that instance, they wouldn't be meant to produce your food. The purpose would be to provide them with a comfortable environment to live out their lives. If it was a mutually beneficial situation, and you ate the eggs that the chicken had no use for (provided the evidence that eating eggs is unatural in chickens holds of course), well than what harm would it do?

    I'm not sure that the argument that eating eggs causes harm to humans is an argument that it is unethical. Driving is dangerous, but it is hardly unethical. Likewise, humans can choose if they want to cause pain or potential pains to themselves. For instance, I pluck my eyebrows. Hurts like an SOB. But I like how it looks. That's not unethical. At least, I hope not.
    "The question is not, can they reason? Nor, can they talk? But, can they suffer?"--Jeremy Bentham

  9. #159
    kokopelli's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    wales
    Posts
    381

    Default

    Quote veganblue
    I have a future dream of a permaculture self-sufficiency property that I would love to create later in life and I was asked this morning about the eggs; if I have chicken on the property, what would I do with the eggs?

    Maybe I will be content with the wild bird population; but chickens are so smart and have so much character when in a peaceful environment. The make great garden companions.
    Veganblue, why would you want chickens?
    They've been bred to be all unnatural, and lay too many eggs. They henpeck the weakest one, even when they're in a peaceful environment, in my experience anyway. And where would you get the hens from? They're a product of animal exploitation themselves.

    Wild birds are 'smarter', because they have to be to survive, and much more interesting, and when they trust you not to harm them, they freely become garden companions themselves. And you'll be able to watch them rearing their young ones, which you won't be able to if you have hens without a cock. I'm sure your peaceful permaculture project would soon be colonised by a wide variety of native birds, because you'd be providing them with an ideal environment, with different niches for different species.

  10. #160
    kokopelli's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    wales
    Posts
    381

    Default

    Quote Peas'nHominy

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Kelzie
    " you think they should be taken from the chickens and thrown away?"

    I think that would at least be better than eating them.


    I'm not sure what all vegans think, but I do agree with what Astrocat was saying. I just don't believe that animals are meant to be our food nor meant to "produce" food for us, with their waste or by-products and such. I just don't think it should even be regarded or looked at as food at all.
    ----------------------
    I also think it is nasty, and I think animal proteins are harmful.
    I agree. And when my friend finally took her chickens back, I found clutches of eggs hidden all around the garden, weeks or months old.

    I did think that maybe they might be useful for throwing at unpopular politicians...but of course I didn't actually do that! I buried them.

  11. #161
    feline01's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    ?
    Posts
    874

    Default

    Quote Shisha Fiend
    Me too. I know this sounds stupid but sometimes it just makes me so fucking mad this, all this stuff. The way animals are just, you know, ours to use as we wish. It's not right. Back when I was doing all the major research into the meat, eggs, and dairy stuff, that convinced me to become a vegan, I remember I often used to lie awake at night seething about it, and I used to just end up crying, because I'd be thinking about all the animals in the factory farms and stuff, all there while I was lying in my bed. It just made me feel so mad, and so helpless, and so angry, and so pained.
    I don't understand how you can be so angry (rightly so) about exploitation of animals yet think it is morally/ethically sound to participate albeit at a minimal level (the consumption of rescued "happy" hens' eggs). Consuming these eggs is just the beginning of that long, slippery road to justifying consumption of animal waste, animal by-products and ultimately, animals themselves.

  12. #162
    Astrocat
    Guest

    Default

    Astrocat, you rock.
    thanks !

    Just because the situation is not common does not mean there is something ethically wrong with it.
    I never said that this was the case - did you read what i said ?
    Why are you refuting a point which i haven't made as if i have ?


    I love me some vegan cookies Not much fiber in em... kind of a lot of sugar.
    Yes, unsurprisingly enough it is possible to get unhealthy vegan food - this is because there are also many vegans who don;t have health as an especially pressing part of their veganism, who enjoy eating unhealthy snacks.

    However, your enjoyment of eating vegan sugar-cookies makes no difference to all of the people who do have health as their primary concern in veganism.

    Obviously, the health issues involved in eating eggs are rather different from the ones involved in eating vegan sugar-cookies.


    There are many things that Sisha and I can be accused of here. I don't think that accepting ethical eggs without questioning it is one of them.
    Perhaps there is more to this discussion than just you, eh ?
    There are other people to talk about in the world, you know ?


    So you think they should be taken from the chickens and thrown away?
    Why do any "taking" and grabbing in the first place ?
    Hens also produce plenty of shit - would it seem scandalous or wasteful to you, if people throw that out instead of eating it ?

    IF I ate eggs, I wouldn't call myself a vegan. Vegans don't eat eggs. What I'm trying to figure out is why all vegans think it's always wrong?
    Obviously this is where the discrepancy lies.
    You will never be able to prove that all vegans always think such-and-such.... vegans are not a generic group of people, I would consider eating eggs from Rescued hens to be unnatural, parasitical, unhealthful, filthy and an ingestion of a form of flesh, but just because someone eats those that doesn;t make it "wrong" for those reasons... "wrong" is a very vague term anyway, I use "unethical" instead.

    Vegans have all kinds of approaches to this issue I'm sure - as I've said those not conditioned to think of non-foods as being food will not automatically make this leap of assumption - this includes lifelong vegans and those who have broken out of the pattern of thought taught to them by their conditioning.

    If something is a non-food then why would people need to consider it "wrong" before not eating it ?

    People who don;t eat concrete breeze-blocks aren;t asked why they consider it "wrong", after all....
    And in my entire life i have yet to encounter somebody question me on why i throw out my own menstrual waste instead of eating it (since what i do is assumedly wasteful by some definition)


    I can't speak for everyone here, but I have a feeling that ethics have played a central role in people's decision to become vegans
    and what i said (quote) is "Ethics are not the be-all and end-all."
    You can understand that, right ?
    Ethics are integral to many peoples' veganism, however there are other aspects to it too in many cases.

  13. #163
    Astrocat
    Guest

    Default

    oh! I didn;t notice this last page here, so i missed out on reading the end replies before i posted, by mistake - sorry about that folks, i wasn;t meaning to ignore you there

  14. #164
    Astrocat
    Guest

    Default

    PeasnHominy:
    Why would taking the egg and throwing it away be any less intrusive to the chicken than taking it and eating it.
    Peas n Hominy never said that it necessarily would be. They said that it would be "better".

    I restate - who needs to go taking anything off anyone ?


    I'm not sure that the argument that eating eggs causes harm to humans is an argument that it is unethical.
    No, it is not unethical to do something which only harms yourself - that is self-destructive (or self-harming anyway) , but not unethical.

    [VeganBlue], where would you get the hens from? They're a product of animal exploitation themselves.
    He said a little while ago that he expected that all of his hens would end up being rescued hens from battery-farms (or something to that effect)


    I don't understand how you can be so angry (rightly so) about exploitation of animals yet think it is morally/ethically sound to participate albeit at a minimal level (the consumption of rescued "happy" hens' eggs). Consuming these eggs is just the beginning of that long, slippery road to justifying consumption of animal waste, animal by-products and ultimately, animals themselves.
    I'm not sure if it's always a slippery slope situation - but certainly i agree that they are all in the same boat, these ways of thinking about others.

  15. #165
    Astrocat
    Guest

    Default

    in case i didn;t make it clear in all of that replying, i do feel that it is "wrong" in an unethical sense to take eggs off rescued hens and eat them for the reason mentioned before by myself and others, that this advocates and condones the consumption of others' bodily fluids and panders to the conditioned belief that others' bodily fluids can be considered "food" if society thinks this is acceptable - ie hen eggs are acceptable, but people would usually never dream of asking their neighbour (for example) for used tampons to suck on.

    Think of how many people you have heard announcing that "eating meat is okay since meat is "food" " ?

    I agree with feline when she says that even if it might have little to do with the specific ethics of rescued hen eggs then affirming to others that eggs should be considered as food is basically a form of acceptance of animal exploitation - even if it is comparatively at a very low level.

  16. #166
    gertvegan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Bristol, SW England
    Posts
    1,912

    Default

    Karen Davis the founder of the United Poultry Concern will not eat the eggs even when they come from the chickens on her own sanctuary and even though they have the best life you could imagine for a chicken. She wants people to move away from the idea that their taste has a "right" to be satisfied and that animals in general, and chickens in particular, may be used to satisfy that taste.

    This is from "The pig who sang to the moon" by Jeffrey Masson.

  17. #167
    Kelzie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Minnesota
    Posts
    60

    Default

    So what about people using manure instead of fertilizers in their garden? Surely that is using an animal for your own ends as much as taking an egg. But the animal has as much use for its manure as a chicken seems to for its unfertilized eggs.
    "The question is not, can they reason? Nor, can they talk? But, can they suffer?"--Jeremy Bentham

  18. #168
    snivelingchild's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Lafayette, Louisiana, United S
    Posts
    1,022

    Default

    Quote Kelzie
    Driving is dangerous, but it is hardly unethical.
    I'd have to disagree with that. Many people view driving a car as unethical. I'd get around all by bike if I could (I don't have a bike). It uses up fuel and pollutes or uses up tons of energy, kills bugs, etc. But that's another topic all together!

  19. #169
    snivelingchild's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Lafayette, Louisiana, United S
    Posts
    1,022

    Default

    Quote Kelzie
    So what about people using manure instead of fertilizers in their garden? Surely that is using an animal for your own ends as much as taking an egg. But the animal has as much use for its manure as a chicken seems to for its unfertilized eggs.
    Well, 1) I don't like manure being used for fertilizer anyway; there are much better ways to grow and it can fertilize whereever it happens to drop, and 2) while a cow CANNOT benefit from it's manure AT ALL, a hen VERY MUCH CAN, by eating it herself, or having it fed back to her as a sort of recycling of nutrients and resources; they are HERS, she looses much nutrition, especially in her older laying years since she has been bred to produce to much, she can have what's HERS and regain much of those nutrients without being as resource intensive.

  20. #170
    Kelzie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Minnesota
    Posts
    60

    Default

    Quote snivelingchild
    I'd have to disagree with that. Many people view driving a car as unethical. I'd get around all by bike if I could (I don't have a bike). It uses up fuel and pollutes or uses up tons of energy, kills bugs, etc. But that's another topic all together!
    I agree that a car is unethical in the sense of harm to the environment. I was just using it as an example of something dangerous or harmful to humans, that might not be considered unethical. Not in the environmental sense, but the actual risk of an accident when you drive the car. Biking could be used too...after all, there's always a risk some crazy car could hit you. Anyway, the point is that humans can willing do potentially harmful things (*ahem*, eat a cookie) without it being unethical.
    "The question is not, can they reason? Nor, can they talk? But, can they suffer?"--Jeremy Bentham

  21. #171
    Kelzie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Minnesota
    Posts
    60

    Default

    Quote snivelingchild
    Well, 1) I don't like manure being used for fertilizer anyway; there are much better ways to grow and it can fertilize whereever it happens to drop, and 2) while a cow CANNOT benefit from it's manure AT ALL, a hen VERY MUCH CAN, by eating it herself, or having it fed back to her as a sort of recycling of nutrients and resources; they are HERS, she looses much nutrition, especially in her older laying years since she has been bred to produce to much, she can have what's HERS and regain much of those nutrients without being as resource intensive.
    But then there's the question of if it's ethical to feed something to an animal that's not natural for it.
    "The question is not, can they reason? Nor, can they talk? But, can they suffer?"--Jeremy Bentham

  22. #172
    snivelingchild's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Lafayette, Louisiana, United S
    Posts
    1,022

    Default

    Quote Kelzie
    But then there's the question of if it's ethical to feed something to an animal that's not natural for it.
    How can we really say what is natural for such an unnatural animal. That arguement can be said for not feeding a dog entrails, intestines, and bones.

  23. #173
    gertvegan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Bristol, SW England
    Posts
    1,912

    Default

    Quote Kelzie
    So what about people using manure instead of fertilizers in their garden? Surely that is using an animal for your own ends as much as taking an egg. But the animal has as much use for its manure as a chicken seems to for its unfertilized eggs.
    It is very difficult to eliminate all animal products from ones consumption, just as it is impossible to eliminate all accidental killing etc from our activities. But this cannot justify for using animals for eggs and animals for manure, if one or the other (or both) could be avoided.

  24. #174
    snivelingchild's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Lafayette, Louisiana, United S
    Posts
    1,022

    Default

    Wow, notice how fast this thread has grown? And with out cow fertilizer even!

  25. #175
    Stephanie Peas'nHominy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Houston, Texas
    Posts
    196

    Default

    Quote Kelzie
    What I'm trying to figure out is why all vegans think it's always wrong?
    I was just sharing why I think it's wrong. I think it is unethical, but that is in part due to my particular faith/religious beliefs. I believe my body was created by God and is the dwelling place of the Holy Spirit, which is also referred to as the temple of God. For my faith, I believe it is wrong and unethical to knowingly harm this temple (ie, my body), which God created, gave life to, and dwells within. I am not preaching that anyone here has to agree with me; it's just that you asked this question and I was/am happy to share with you my two cents. *lots of luv * I believe in compassionate living all the way 'round, i.e. including for my self.

    Quote Kelzie
    Why would taking the egg and throwing it away be any less intrusive to the chicken than taking it and eating it.
    Yes I think this is about the chicken, but I don't think it's only about the chicken (see above, like I said, my faith), and I don't think it's food! *lots of luv with smiles* (and I'm not too sure that we should be taking the eggs at all anyway, even to just throw 'em away...I'm still thinking about it...is there some environmental or health benefit for the hen if we bury the rotting eggs?)

    (side note: I know I might be alone in my view here, but that's okay - also I'm enjoying getting to know y'all better. This is a cool thread! )

  26. #176
    snivelingchild's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Lafayette, Louisiana, United S
    Posts
    1,022

    Default

    Hmm, maybe someone can start a poll or add a poll to this asking what poeple think is the best solution for the eggs of a rescued hen who does not brood; take the eggs and eat them, take the eggs and throw them away, take the eggs and bury them, bury them in the same area they are laid, leave them to rot or be eaten by the hens (considering they all have their beaks intact), hard-boil them and feed them back, etc.

  27. #177
    Kelzie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Minnesota
    Posts
    60

    Default

    Wow PeasnHominy, that's a very unique view point that you have. Do you follow a specific religion, or is it more of a personal belief? Must be hard for you either way...I admire you for it.

    Here's my conclusion on chickens eating their eggs (after doing some research on animals eating their own young). It's both natural and unatural. Animals do occasionally eat their own young in nature, but it's not very common (obviously or the species wouldn't last long ). The reason it happens is because either the mother is to young and inexperienced to care for her young, or she is suffering from malnutrition. The malnutrition bit is interesting, because it seems that it seems it is done more for the planets benefit than the animals. Rabbits eat their own young, but it is actually bad for them, since they are natural herbivores. But if the mother is malnutritioned, it seems as if she somehow understands that her environment can barely support her, let alone her offspring. So that seems to be the reason that chickens eat their eggs if they are suffering from malnutrition.

    Any of this is, of course, open to debate
    "The question is not, can they reason? Nor, can they talk? But, can they suffer?"--Jeremy Bentham

  28. #178
    John's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    NJ USA
    Posts
    714

    Default

    I don't think that there is any need for a poll. This is not about opinions.

  29. #179
    gertvegan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Bristol, SW England
    Posts
    1,912

    Default

    I'd say that many very good posts have already been made on the topic of why not to eat eggs from chickens (rescued or not). The topic may well continue to go around and around, and then around a bit more, until the ligtbulb goes on, imo.

  30. #180
    John's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    NJ USA
    Posts
    714

    Default

    I agree, Gert. We have provided more than enough evidence that eating eggs is exploitation and stealing them is unhealthy to the hens. If someone wants to ignore the truth, what can we do?

  31. #181
    Astrocat
    Guest

    Default

    I totally agree with you guys !

    Re:
    So what about people using manure instead of fertilizers in their garden?
    So what about it, yourself ?
    answering a straight-forward question with another question is no kind of answer at all.

    Ever heard of vegan organic gardening and agriculture ?

    Even if commercial influence makes it impossible for many people to support this through their food purchasing choices, i gather that most vegans would prefer these techniques to be used rather than the usual "shitty" methods which are most commonly used.

    Of course, if vegan people grow their own food it is quite possible to run their garden in a vegan/organic manner.

    So, now... are you planning to answer the question which i asked properly, or are you just deflecting ?
    I would be interested to know what your answer is...

    Wow, notice how fast this thread has grown? And with out cow fertilizer even!"
    hehe, that's vegans for you - they've all sold their souls to Seitan you know...

  32. #182
    Kelzie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Minnesota
    Posts
    60

    Default

    Quote John
    I agree, Gert. We have provided more than enough evidence that eating eggs is exploitation and stealing them is unhealthy to the hens. If someone wants to ignore the truth, what can we do?
    If by evidence you are referring to simple statements that eating eggs is exploiting them, then you are right. There has been a lot of that. However, a statement is not evidence until it is backed up by fact. If you call ignoring the truth waiting for facts or a logical argument, then so be it. And I have also posted several FACTS that chickens do not naturally eat their eggs, so how is stealing it unhealthy for the chickens?

    I'm sorry Astrocat, what question are you talking about? I forget which I've answered and which I haven't.
    "The question is not, can they reason? Nor, can they talk? But, can they suffer?"--Jeremy Bentham

  33. #183
    Astrocat
    Guest

    Default

    I'm sorry Astrocat, what question are you talking about? I forget which I've answered and which I haven't.
    No problem
    I'd just asked whether you'd feel that it was wasteful for the chickens to just poo wherever they like without humans rushing in and scooping up the poo and eating it in order not to be wasteful.

    ie - waste is waste.... it isn;t wasteful to treat it that way

    Have you never experienced for yourself the kind of people who justify eating flesh or bodily fluids by simply saying blankly "but it's FOOD ?"

  34. #184
    Kelzie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Minnesota
    Posts
    60

    Default

    Well if somebody wanted to eat chicken poo, I certainly could care less. I, actually haven't experienced anyone justifying eating animals/body fluid by saying "it's food" (guess I'm just lucky )I'm not quite sure...I'd guess for me, I'd have to say that while it might contain nutritional value, and therefore have some defense for it being food, I prefer my food choices to have not come from the harm of another. Cause I mean, those people ARE right, it IS food. People can eat it, and not die, and lot's of animals eat it. But I feel there are other considerations to be considered before you eat something just because it is food. And that is what I'm doing here. I'm not eating eggs just cause they're food, I'm considering the pros and cons.
    "The question is not, can they reason? Nor, can they talk? But, can they suffer?"--Jeremy Bentham

  35. #185
    Astrocat
    Guest

    Default

    but people can eat all kinds of things and not die - including completely indigestible things... surely there are things which a person can consume which you feel are not really food ?

    Pot Noodles, for example - now, surely nobody is goinf to try telling me those things are food !



    Well if somebody wanted to eat chicken poo, I certainly could care less.
    Well yes, but if they didn;t then they wouldn;t really need to have a reason not to... right ?


    I, actually haven't experienced anyone justifying eating animals/body fluid by saying "it's food" (guess I'm just lucky )
    Seriously ?!? Holy crapolie, if i had a penny for every person like that i;ve encountered so far I could put the money in a bank and live off the interest !

    Apart from anything else, i have encountered DROVES of christians who bastardise the bible for their own agendas and twist the teachings of their own religion to say that "God says that animals are food, so it's okay to eat them if you like"


    I'm not quite sure...I'd guess for me, I'd have to say that while it might contain nutritional value, and therefore have some defense for it being food, I prefer my food choices to have not come from the harm of another.
    aha, hey so now then, please tell me why you feel that it would harm a chicken (or other animal) for you to eat its' poo.

    It wouldn;t , right ?
    Or no more so than eating a hen's eggs would, surely.

  36. #186
    Kelzie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Minnesota
    Posts
    60

    Default

    Quote Astrocat
    but people can eat all kinds of things and not die - including completely indigestible things... surely there are things which a person can consume which you feel are not really food ?

    Pot Noodles, for example - now, surely nobody is goinf to try telling me those things are food !
    Sorry I didn't mean to make my definition of food so narrow. Food, by definition, also has to have some sort of nutritional value. Eggs do. Of course, it also has some negative effects on the human body, but almost everythig does if you eat too much of it. What are Pot Noodles, btw?

    Quote Astrocat
    Well yes, but if they didn;t then they wouldn;t really need to have a reason not to... right ?
    Because the reason they don't is kind of implied. Not speaking from experience here, but I'd assume that chicken poo tastes kinda gross. And it doesn't have any nutritional value, so it's not a food at all.

    Quote Astrocat
    Seriously ?!? Holy crapolie, if i had a penny for every person like that i;ve encountered so far I could put the money in a bank and live off the interest !

    Apart from anything else, i have encountered DROVES of christians who bastardise the bible for their own agendas and twist the teachings of their own religion to say that "God says that animals are food, so it's okay to eat them if you like"
    I know, it's weird! Everybody I've told is actually really supportive. The worst I've ever gotten is "I could never do it"...but they wished they could. I actually kind of wish someone could say something stupid...I like arguing (if you couldn't tell already )


    aha, hey so now then, please tell me why you feel that it would harm a chicken (or other animal) for you to eat its' poo.

    It wouldn;t , right ?
    Or no more so than eating a hen's eggs would, surely.
    Wait...I'm confused...that's my point isn't it?
    "The question is not, can they reason? Nor, can they talk? But, can they suffer?"--Jeremy Bentham

  37. #187
    Astrocat
    Guest

    Default

    Sorry I didn't mean to make my definition of food so narrow.
    Noooo problem


    Food, by definition, also has to have some sort of nutritional value. Eggs do. Of course, it also has some negative effects on the human body, but almost everything does if you eat too much of it.
    How about people ?
    People-flesh contains a good nutritional profile compared to commercial animal-flesh, and quite possibly at least as much as an egg would have in it.

    But.... would this in itself make people-flesh food, just because humans can obtain some form of nutrition if they eat it ?

    What are Pot Noodles, btw?
    scary !
    Also, they are widely accepted among many Brit cultures as being not entirely technically food, despite being a food-product.



    Because the reason they don't [eat poo] is kind of implied. Not speaking from experience here, but I'd assume that chicken poo tastes kinda gross. And it doesn't have any nutritional value, so it's not a food at all.
    How can you say that ? For all you know it tastes like chocolate, right ?
    there are plenty of foods which taste gross but that doesn;t make them not-food, tinned brussel-sprouts being a fine example. I'll bet chicken poo doesn;t taste worse than that stuff - or maybe the one tin of those i ever tried was just a nasty brand (i usually really like brussel sprouts, too)
    And it does indeed have nutritional content, just like with all poo. Pooing is a very common way for animals to get rid of excess nutrition (ie vitamin B12) from their bodies.
    So, i would disagree that the reason they don;t eat poo is implied in the way which you mentioned.

    Everybody I've told is actually really supportive. The worst I've ever gotten is "I could never do it"...but they wished they could. I actually kind of wish someone could say something stupid...I like arguing (if you couldn't tell already
    haha, always happy to oblige, Ms CrankyPants at yer service.

    if you're looking for a fight, try asking some people why they feel that they could "never" give up fluids and/or flesh.

    Re: "Wait...I'm confused...that's my point isn't it?"

    No sir , you said
    "Well if somebody wanted to eat chicken poo, I certainly could care less. I, actually haven't experienced anyone justifying eating animals/body fluid by saying "it's food" (guess I'm just lucky )I'm not quite sure...I'd guess for me, I'd have to say that while it might contain nutritional value, and therefore have some defense for it being food, I prefer my food choices to have not come from the harm of another."

    ie - although poo has nutrition i don;t want my food to come from the harm of another, so i wouldn;t want to eat it anyway.

    ohhhhh..... waaaaaait..... I think you meant that was why you wouldn;t eat flesh or bodily fluids hahaha never mind

    Anyway, so yes - poo, it's nutritious so could be considered food by your definition - but why would you not want to eat it ? Do you even need a reason ?

  38. #188
    Not Bothered Shisha Fiend's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    100

    Default

    Quote Astrocat
    Anyway, so yes - poo, it's nutritious so could be considered food by your definition - but why would you not want to eat it ? Do you even need a reason ?
    Eurgh. I've tasted chicken poo. It's not nice.

    I think it's basically ammonia, it's very alkali anyway.

    That's why I wouldn't want to eat it. It'd burn you all the way down, probably. If it did taste like chocolate, and didn't burn, I wouldn't have a problem with anyone eating it as long as the chickens weren't exploited for it.

    (By the way I don't go around eating poo for fun, or not any more- I got a bit on my finger and chewed my feinger without realizing... )

    I think Feline01 asked how can I be against animal exploitation and yet for (or neutral about) eating eggs from rescue hens. Like I've explained about two or three times already, I really don't see it ever leading on to me eating meat. I really don't believe eating eggs that you would bin anyway, is exploitative.

    Another thing: if people are saying it's unnatural for us to eat hens' periods, how natural is it really to expect them to eat their own boiled menses? To my mind that's even more unnatural. Plenty of animals eat others' eggs after all. But how many cook their own periods and eat them?

    Plus, it's a sign of malnutrition for them to eat their own eggs. I don't know, I just get the impression people are ignoring this fact for the sake of convenience to their own arguments? Perhaps I'm misreading it though. Sorry.

    As I see it, the real issue here for why vegans won't eat eggs is they feel uncomfortable with the idea of using any animal product as food, whether it's harming the animal or not. Why? I would assume because we can see the evidence every day, of where that can lead. Dead animals on supermarket shelves. Animals specifically bred to provide the best bodies for whatever humans consider their purpose should be- even if that means chickens so fat their legs can't support them. Animals being pumped full of drugs. Whole industries dedicated to killing. It's not pleasant, we all feel that.

    Thing is I don't think these rescue hens eggs are ever going to lead back there. The point is your looking after them until they die. You're not breeding more to get more eggs, or anything.

    I suppose people just feel uncomfortable with the idea, in case it lead to the objectification of the chicken. But I think we need to be able to explain exactly how that could come about, in this situation. Cos while I understand that feeling, I don't think it stands up under practical scrutiny, really.

    Just for the record, I don't eat eggs. I wouldn't be opposed to eating eggs from rescue hens, but I don't know any rescue hens. Therefore I don't eat eggs.

    Gert, I agree that the argument should continue until 'the light goes on' and we reach a conclusion we can all agree to. Though that could take some time. It's great to be able to have this debate with vegans though.

    My personal view of the situation at the moment, is some vegans will, some won't. Eg the 'vegan eggs' appearing in shops. Some vegans feel it is unethical, perhaps they feel that in their own minds eating eggs would lead to the objectification of the hens. However if you can say that you would efinitely not succumb to that mindset by eating eggs, I don't see how those specific ones are unvegan. What I'm saying is it can be vegan to be against eating eggs from rescue hens. It can be vegan to be neutral.

    People are saying veganism is about 'more than ethics'- I disagree. I agree that veganism is about not expoiting animals at all, not objectifying them, respecting them, and not seeing them as there to serve humans in dietary ro whatever other ways. However I would not say that this is not ethics. As far as I'm concerned all those things are ethical viewpoints and ethical reasons for the vegan lifestyle. And I don't see how rescue hen eggs will always go against these principles. I do see that for some people it could lead to that- but not for everyone. It's about knowing your own weaknesses, and I think following the vegan lifestyle makes you an expert in that.

    As for health, I been looking into it, found several conflicting studies, all of them biased- eg egg companies claiming eggs don't hurt you, or in some cases that they protect against heart disease and cancer- whatever!- also vegetarian/vegan websites claiming that they'll kill you soon as look at you. You know. But on balance, I'd have to conclude that once a year really wouldn't hurt. All in moderation is a good rule, applies to most things.

    Basically I don't have much more to say yet, as Kelzie has again said everything I've been thinking.

    xxx

  39. #189
    Not Bothered Shisha Fiend's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    100

    Default

    Sniv- thanks for your earlier post, I found it really engaging and I've just got round to scrolling back and finding it in order to write a reply.

    Something is bothering me here. Earlier someone mentioned about the trait of brooding being bred out. It seems this can only mean when birds would occasionally brood even when their nests aren't full, and they don't do this anymore. But birds did brood always when they had a full nest. Is this also bred out of them, because the eggs of the chickens they use are always taken. Do they brood or not when allowed a full nest? Does anyone know this, because how can they be sure they don't brood if they always take the eggs away. If this is so, that means the egg industry couldn't breed new layers, unless they use incubaters. Do they use incubaters?
    I'm pretty sure they use incubators yeah. I remember when I was little, I used to go round to one of the local farms, you know the kind. The 'let's make sure inner-city kids know what a cow looks like' kind. Basically it was free, so we went a lot, and it was set up like a museum, it was a working farm, but all pretty nice and glossed over, and they did projects with the local schools. Anyway they used to have this barn with all displays and explanations about farm animals, plus occasionally an incubator full of eggs, then little yellow baby chicks. Of course I just thought this was sweet, now I wonder if maybe the chicks in the incubator were all female (more than likely) and if so just what had happened to the male chicks... But anyway. Yeah they incubate. 'Never leave anything to nature' seems to be the motto of modern farming.

    This would mean these birds could never reproduce naturally, because the eggs would not survive.

    Doesn't all this mean that we would be taking advantage of the aspects man has ruined for the hens. I could not feel right doing that. Now I don't even care if the chicken gives a damn, it just doesn't seem right to be gaining from these poor creatures. I don't care if they realize they are being exlpoited. Heck, they probably don't know they're being exploited in factory farms, just that they are being hurt. You can't have a symbiotic relationship unless both parties consciously agree to it, not in my mind. Also, that would mean your benefitting from the egg industry, making these hens the way they are.
    Mmm, to me it's not so much an issue of benefitting, just- the eggs are there, they would be chucked, why not eat them? I'm thinking in terms of practicality, even in morality. I suppose that's probably a mistake.

    I don't understand how someone sees a difference if someone who owns hens to eat their eggs, but treats them nice, and someone who keeps hens to take care of them, treating them equally nice, but eats their eggs. The same thing happens, but one is exploitation and one is not? Does it just depend on what the person thinks about it? Shouldn't it depend on what is done? This is like debating whether or not taking a pen from someone is okay, based on how important it is to them or if they use it. That might matter to how much they value it, but not to the moral equation of taking it. It is not yours.
    Um, two different issues here. One, what's more important, intention or consequence? According to your previous comment, it would seem you feel intention is more important as far as the ethics for the human eating the eggs goes, but consequence as far as the hens are concerned. I'm inclined to agree, I think in this case what determines whether it's exploitation is your intention. If it is exploitation, because that is your intetion, then it is fair to say it could lead onto the slippery slope, at which point it becomes suffering as a consequence for the chicken.

    Second issue, absolutes. For you it's an absolute that eggs are just wrong, under any circumstance? For me it's relative. I think it would be very hard to prove either opinion right or wrong, I think what matters here is how it affects the chickens, in practical terms, and what your intention is, in terms of keeping a 'vegan frame of mind'.

    Do you get me? It's hard to be clear when we get into this kind of philsophical area, especially at quarter to two in the morning!

    xxx

  40. #190
    Kelzie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Minnesota
    Posts
    60

    Default

    Yay, you're back Shisha! I was feeling very alone...

    Quote Shisha Fiend
    Basically I don't have much more to say yet, as Kelzie has again said everything I've been thinking.
    But you seem to say it so much better...
    "The question is not, can they reason? Nor, can they talk? But, can they suffer?"--Jeremy Bentham

  41. #191
    Not Bothered Shisha Fiend's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    100

    Default

    But you seem to say it so much better...
    Thanks, I think you're doing okay as you are!

    Basically the whole thing seems to still be going round in circles at the moment though, we could all just copy and paste all our old posts and stick them back up!

    xxx

  42. #192
    Kelzie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Minnesota
    Posts
    60

    Default

    [QUOTE=Astrocat]Noooo problem




    Quote Astrocat
    How about people ?
    People-flesh contains a good nutritional profile compared to commercial animal-flesh, and quite possibly at least as much as an egg would have in it. But.... would this in itself make people-flesh food, just because humans can obtain some form of nutrition if they eat it ?
    Well, yes, technically people are food. Sharks like us just fine

    Quote Astrocat
    How can you say that ? For all you know it tastes like chocolate, right ?
    there are plenty of foods which taste gross but that doesn;t make them not-food, tinned brussel-sprouts being a fine example. I'll bet chicken poo doesn;t taste worse than that stuff - or maybe the one tin of those i ever tried was just a nasty brand (i usually really like brussel sprouts, too)
    And it does indeed have nutritional content, just like with all poo. Pooing is a very common way for animals to get rid of excess nutrition (ie vitamin B12) from their bodies.
    So, i would disagree that the reason they don;t eat poo is implied in the way which you mentioned.
    Blech. Not me. I hate all kinds of brussel sprouts. And poo is also a way to get rid of a lot of excess toxins...doesn't make for good food.

    Quote Astrocat
    if you're looking for a fight, try asking some people why they feel that they could "never" give up fluids and/or flesh.
    Okay I had to include this so I could brag. My uncle just called and said I've converted him to veganism too!!! He's eaten a vegan diet for three days and he loves it. I knew he was my favorite uncle for some reason.
    "The question is not, can they reason? Nor, can they talk? But, can they suffer?"--Jeremy Bentham

  43. #193
    Kelzie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Minnesota
    Posts
    60

    Default

    Yeah, I don't quite get how it happened either. He was a very easy sell. I have a hunch he might have been considering it before I brought it up. My mom (hehe, I wish I was from London...mum is so much cooler) thankfully hasn't allowed milk in her house since she read a Discover article on how bad it is for you. She's my next project. And from there, my little brother and sister have no choice but to go vegan.

    And then?

    The world!!
    "The question is not, can they reason? Nor, can they talk? But, can they suffer?"--Jeremy Bentham

  44. #194
    Stephanie Peas'nHominy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Houston, Texas
    Posts
    196

    Default

    Quote Astrocat
    Apart from anything else, i have encountered DROVES of christians who bastardise the bible for their own agendas and twist the teachings of their own religion to say that "God says that animals are food, so it's okay to eat them if you like"
    Perhaps we all have; it's a real shame. I have a good many friends who are of various denominations of Christian, Catholic, Mormon, Islamic and Jewish - I find (so far anyway) that within different religions some of this "bastardising" exists. It's a real shame to that faith to come to know someone like that - I reckon that's one reason why it annoys me for a person who eats fish to say he's vegetarian or a person who eats eggs to say he's vegan - it can cause...disappreciation and misunderstanding. (IMO) I don't intend to be mean to these people and I don't get upset if someone "messes up," yet I think both words and actions are important.


    Quote Kelzie
    Wow PeasnHominy, that's a very unique view point that you have. Do you follow a specific religion, or is it more of a personal belief? Must be hard for you either way...I admire you for it.
    You are so sweet and nice!! Thank you for your kind words!! I have searched into different spiritual teachings, and find that I truely believe in the teachings of Jesus. So although I call myself a "Christian," veganism is part of that for me. To answer your question, I suppose the answer is...both(?). I refuse to just believe something because a preacher-man says it; I have to pray about it, research it, and consider it for myself. (Yes, it is hard for me out here in beef country, but I'm so happy now to find y'all I don't feel as alone anymore, as a vegan that is. I think y'all rock! )

    Quote Kelzie
    Okay I had to include this so I could brag. My uncle just called and said I've converted him to veganism too!!! He's eaten a vegan diet for three days and he loves it. I knew he was my favorite uncle for some reason.
    Wow! That's great! I'm excited right now, too, because I'm making progess with my hubby. Actually, I think I have y'all on this forum to thank - I'm getting better at speaking to people about this stuff.

  45. #195
    Kelzie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Minnesota
    Posts
    60

    Default

    I hear ya on the beef country. My dad lives in Houston too. Good luck on your hubby. I think that was my biggest problem too: learning how to explain veganism. I always just ended pissing people off . My mom's working her way to suedo-vegansim. She doesn't eat beef, fish, or poultry, and is trying to cut out fish. However, she wants to get some hens for eggs, hence my interest in the thread (not that I'd eat them, but...)
    "The question is not, can they reason? Nor, can they talk? But, can they suffer?"--Jeremy Bentham

  46. #196
    snivelingchild's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Lafayette, Louisiana, United S
    Posts
    1,022

    Default

    Shisha fiend, you mentioned that if the eggs were not eaten, they would be wasted, but that's assuming someone won't feed them to the hens or let them nurish the Earth. And yes, I do think in absolutes about eggs, because no matter how you put it they are not yours. I don't really care if it doesn't hurt the hens. If we all went around trying to live a life where our highest goal was not doing harm, not much good would come. I want to do good, and to me the best choice in such a situation would be to feed the eggs back to the hens (unless they brood, in which case it is a health benefit to keep the eggs there permanantly or take them to feed back when she gives up trying to hatch them, since this slows down her laying which leds to a longer healthier life). If you take them for your own means, it is stealing. So far I haven't heard anyone argue against this. I try to give non-human animals the same consideration I give any human. It is stealing. Even if you ignore that fact, if you are taking care of hens, you want to provide them with the healthiest happiest life possible. I'd say the eggs are much better for them than you, and they would be healthier as a result of eating their own eggs. It's like a multi-vitamin for them. Why not let them have it.

    (sorry I didn't break that up enough)

    If waste is not a factor (and it shouldn't be) the eggs will go to either them or you (or at least the earth for composting). If you feed them to yourself instead of them, you are putting yourself first. That's not how I would treat a friend, especially one who has been through so much. Besides which, they are healthier for them than humans, they deserve it more.

    I'd really like to see this discussion turn away from harm, because sometimes you have to make decisions based on what would to the most good, not the least harm.

  47. #197
    kokopelli's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    wales
    Posts
    381

    Default

    Quote Kelzie
    So what about people using manure instead of fertilizers in their garden? Surely that is using an animal for your own ends as much as taking an egg. But the animal has as much use for its manure as a chicken seems to for its unfertilized eggs.
    Yes, using manure isn't vegan, either.
    Our farm is fertilised entirely with composted plant material and green manuring.
    Using manure is depending on animal farming. Also manure is full of pathogenic bacteria, and it's much nicer to deal with compost than manure. The plants it produces are also healthier, in my opinion.

  48. #198
    kokopelli's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    wales
    Posts
    381

    Default

    Quote Peas'nHominy
    (and I'm not too sure that we should be taking the eggs at all anyway, even to just throw 'em away...I'm still thinking about it...is there some environmental or health benefit for the hen if we bury the rotting eggs?)
    It was just a way of dealing with them...I could have composted them, I suppose, but rotten eggs are very smelly!

    I was just trying to point out that hens behave in very unnatural ways, because they've been bred as egg producers. Wild birds don't generally lay enormous piles of eggs and just leave them. They don't normally all gang up on the weakest individual and peck their feathers out, either.

    Anyway I was very glad to have had the chance to look after my friend's chickens, because it made me realise how much happier I was without them around. That was before I became vegan, and it was the last time I ate eggs. It feels SO MUCH BETTER not to have to depend on animals at all.

  49. #199
    kokopelli's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    wales
    Posts
    381

    Default

    Quote Kelzie
    Rabbits eat their own young, but it is actually bad for them, since they are natural herbivores. But if the mother is malnutritioned, it seems as if she somehow understands that her environment can barely support her, let alone her offspring.
    Actually, I thought rabbit foetuses could be reabsorbed by the mother before they were born, if the environmental conditions weren't OK for raising babies. I didn't think they actually ate their own babies?!?

    Where did you read that?

  50. #200
    kokopelli's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    wales
    Posts
    381

    Default

    Quote Shisha Fiend
    Eg the 'vegan eggs' appearing in shops.
    I don't understand how an egg could ever be vegan.

    If you're saying it's vegan because it comes from a 'rescue' hen, then any knackered old hen whose laying has slowed down to the point where it becomes unprofitable for an 'exploitative' chicken farmer to keep her anymore, could be passed on to some caring 'rescue' place to spend the rest of her days in a relatively pleasant environment, providing a little income from the eggs she still occasionally produced.

    To my mind, that's bolstering the chicken industry.
    It's making it seem like everything's OK because at least the hen's treated 'right' at last.

    I believe the only way to stop the exploitation of animals, is to stop exploiting them altogether.

    Sorry about the multiple posting, BTW.

Similar Threads

  1. Vegans and eggs: here's the short, one-paragraph version!
    By Korn in forum QUESTIONS FROM NON-VEGANS
    Replies: 27
    Last Post: Oct 30th, 2011, 11:40 PM
  2. Kinnerton eggs?
    By refinnej in forum UK
    Replies: 16
    Last Post: Mar 19th, 2010, 01:23 PM
  3. Eggs
    By ComplexZeta in forum QUESTIONS FROM NON-VEGANS
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: Nov 28th, 2007, 07:58 PM
  4. Creme eggs
    By Lyns in forum VEGAN FOOD
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: Jan 25th, 2006, 09:35 PM

Tags for this thread (If you see one or more tags below, click on them if you're looking for similar threads!)

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •