Vegans and eggs

[IndigoSea]

What do you mean by that...

That eating the eggs at that point and in that situation isn't wrong, but if you do eat the eggs you aren't a vegan.

[Korn]

Sure, but why do you think vegans are against eating eggs if they don't think it's wrong? I guess you are a vegan, since you are a member of a forum for vegans! Remember, vegans are not against using eggs because they are not vegan, but because they think it's wrong to use eggs.

[Emam]

John a friend of mine has rescued chickens and she says, left to their devices hens will eat their own eggs. Must be getting some form of nutrient from them I guess.

Hello. I come from a rural background and my mother always kept hens. Hens do eat their own eggs, if a human doesn't swipe them from them before they get the chance to eat them.

[aubergine]

They lose a lot of calcium, and eating them allows them to reabsorb it along with other nutrients.

[Korn]

I guess they eat all the calcium due to their exaggerated egg production - which is stimulated by humans taking their eggs away from them.

[IndigoSea]

Sure, but why do you think vegans are against eating eggs if they don't think it's wrong? I guess you are a vegan, since you are a member of a forum for vegans! Remember, vegans are not against using eggs because they are not vegan, but because they think it's wrong to use eggs.

I know, and yes- I am a vegan
I mean only in this particular sutuation. If you have some rescued hens that lay eggs and there's nothing else to do with them. It's not like in the industry where baby males are killed and the hens have to suffer further horrors and death when their egg-laying days are done. I didn't actually know about the calcium thing though, it seems pretty obvious now that if you take eggs away then they will want to lay more, how foolish of me not to see that! So with this new tidbit of information I change my mind, taking their eggs away is wrong if it causes them distress and loss of minerals.
Regardless though, I'm a vegan for my own choices. I think vegans can have differing opinions on what constitutes right and wrong, but the only important thing is that we're all abstaining from all animal products.

[Korn]

If you have some rescued hens that lay eggs and there's nothing else to do with them.

Yes, there is (we have discussed this several times already.)

Imagine you have a car, a SUV, that cause lot of pollution, and you don't need it, or are against owning one. Now, you could say that 'the car is there, in the garage, so why not use it?', just like you say 'the eggs are there, so why not eat them?', or, to use your words: 'there's nothing else to do with them'.

Just like the car owner can sell or give away his car, you can sell or give away the hens or eggs to someone who otherwise would have bought eggs in a supermarket or free range eggs in a health food store (or hens). By not owning those eggs, you are reducing the numbers of eggs bought by others. If 100,000 people would do the same, and each of these hens are laying a lot of eggs, that's a lot of eggs not sold by the egg industry.

I think vegans can have differing opinions on what constitutes right and wrong

Sure. The limit os only the definition of 'vegan'. 'Vegan' means not using eggs, not because of some old doctrine that vegans have to follow, but because using eggs (from rescued hens or not) is not considered being vegan because vegans find it unethical.

the only important thing is that we're all abstaining from all animal products.

There is some definition posted somewhere saying that a vegan is "a person who abstains from consuming or using animal-derived foods or products including etc. meat, dairy, eggs" and so on - but that definition is missing the main point: that vegans are doing all this for a reason. Respect for life is an important part of the vegan idea, it's not like the idea to avoid animal products came first, and then vegans just have to follow certain rules. The definition is based on the idea that it is unethical to practice a lifestyle which makes others suffer or die - which is what a vegan does if eats 'his own' eggs (in spite of not needing or wanting to) and therefore causes suffering for the factory hens that are laying the eggs his neighbor eats.

[sandra]

IndigoSea, To consume another living being or part of a living being would be alien to me, and doing so just because it would otherwise be 'wasted' would not even come into the equation.

[IndigoSea]

You're preachin' to the choir.

I may not sound like the choir, but I just don't think the concepts of right and wrong end at what I do and do not do. I'm not going to be so silly as to say everything I do is right and therefore anyone who does anything else is wrong. I don't see my personal ethics as being a basis by which to judge the rest of the world. No, of course I wouldn't eat eggs- not because I'm some moron who has adopted someone else's ethics because I can't think for myself, but because I came to the realization that using animal and animal-derived products is wrong. I'm a vegan because it's what is right by my personal ethics.

[Korn]

but because I came to the realization that using animal and animal-derived products is wrong.

That sounds a lot better than 'It's not wrong', if you ask me.

[IndigoSea]

I was more or less talking about the right/wrong standards of a non-vegan when I said that. Or half asleep

[sandra]

I'm glad we got that cleared up IndigoSea, I'm like you, I think for myself and have adopted my own ethics. As far as 'preaching to the choir', I used to go to Church, and believe me the members of the choir were often in need of what was being preached, [not that I'm being judgemental of course ]

[IndigoSea]

wow, well... how about 'preachin' to the converted' instead? ^-^ Never been to church myself so I don't know who needs preaching to and who doesn't :}

[sandra]

lol, neither do I at times!

[Rogue]

i haven't really read much of this thread... but my family has two chickens right... we rescued them from death by head-chopping by our neighbours. so they lay eggs, and i am not sure whether to eat them or not.. because we let them run around the yard and feed them some excellent foodstuffs.. and what else is there to do with an egg? i realise that they would much prefer laying actual chicks.... but i am not really sure. i haven't had an egg since vegan-ism.... but i don't really know why i shouldn't..... yet i kinda can..... actually i am just rather confused

[Steph]

Well Rogue, that's kind of gross, I see birds everyday, cardinals, robins, sparrows eggs everyday, and I don't wan't to eat them! Why don't you just let the eggs stay where they are? You don't have to eat them just because they are in front of you, just let them be!

[Rogue]

ok, yeah i will stay as i am and not eat them... i must say the thought actually repulses me anyway... so jubbly... *shudder*

[sandra]

Yeah, like Steph says, just leave them where they are. When you really think about it, you are eating the substance that could potentially go on to produce another life!
I think Rogue, we are all so used to seeing eggs as food that it takes a while to realise they are not food, and I'm like you the thought of eating an egg would be horrible!

[Korn]

i haven't had an egg since vegan-ism.... but i don't really know why i shouldn't...

Hi, this topic has been discussed several times in this thread earlier... if you have a look, you'll see why vegans don't eat eggs.

[Rogue]

ok thanks, yeh i totally understand now!!

[rianaelf]

if you ever get tempted just rememeber what they are. as a friend of mine once put very bluntly, there's no way i'm eating a hen's period!

[Rogue]

haha omg my friend said that tooooo!!!!

[Purple]

Hi guys, not sure if this has been asked before, but I'm having a lot of trouble finding out what 'organic' means when it refers to meat, eggs, milk etc. (I've posted it here because it's to help educate omni's and give them as few excuses as possible!)

The problem is, I don't seem to be able to find out any information. Just "organic is better" and "organic is healthier" and "organic allows chickens to live a more natural life".

But it doesn't ever actually say *why* this is.


People I've spoken to about veganism seem almost tempted by the idea, but then opt out of it and say "well I'll eat organic because that's better for the animals" (of course, they never actually do this).

What I'm really after, is some strong evidence proving how horrific organic meat farming is.

Obviously with eggs you still have the whole male chick/hatchery death conveyor belt thing (I assume, I can't find out for sure but I can't see how that *can't* be the case).

Does anyone have anything related to organic farming as links or something I can read and add to my arsenal to shut these people up?

These are people who agree that animal welfare needs improving and are against animal cruelty, but haven't yet come around to the idea that it's wrong to eat them in the first place, regardless of the cruelty aspect.


Apologies if this has been asked, I did a search but didn't find anything.

[aubergine]

Organic isn't necessarily better for the animals. They still die. And that's why vegans tend to have a problem with it

Veganic however is better for the soil as it allows the soil to have many organisms grow at the same time which is what nature intended.

Whilst it's good to get pesticides and such out of our bodies, consuming Organically reared Animal foods is still going to lead to the same health implications as eating non-organic animal products.

I have no interest in getting Heart Disease, Osteoperosis, Cancers and so on Organic or not.

[herbwormwood]

The guidelines on poultry for UK organic farmers is described here
http://www.organicfood.co.uk/sense/chicken.html
and for beef
http://www.soilassociation.org/web/s...7!OpenDocument
However this site suggests organic labellimg may be becoming meaningless
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...NGMT6QD0H1.DTL

[cedarblue]

I have no interest in getting Heart Disease, Osteoperosis, Cancers and so on Organic or not.

hear hear!

[Korn]

Hi Purple, have you seen our 'Vegans and eggs'-thread?

Re. killing someone for food... when the vegetarian movement was born, all available meat, all eggs were organic. Organic and meat = two different topics, actually. Vegans and vegetarians don't eat meat because the animals are not organic - we just don't see how we have the right to kill an animal (organic or not) and eat it. We should respect others' right to decide if they want to live or become food, and just like humans, animals and birds prefer to live.

[!!]

->

[Korn]

If there was any concrete evidence on organic meat I'm sure he'd listen!

As you say, it's not happy, it's dead. That should be evidence enough! Ask him what he thinks of cannibals who only eat meat from happy humans...

[!!]

->

[Korn]

The fact that 1) they die and 2) the suffer first should be more than enough... Hens aren't meant to produce food for humans, and every time we remove an egg from an organic hen, organic/free-range or not, it produces more eggs, and ends up with over-producing eggs, bleeding etc.

I wouldn't try to 'counter it' - he just doesn't seem to understand that organic-non-organic is a totally different topic, and nobody else can understand it for him.

He has no issues with them being dead

That (his comment) is the most classical of all non-vegan comments: "I don't have a problem with animals suffering"... The most important point is that they (the animals) have 'problems', not if he has problems or not!

[!!]

->

[Purple]

Cheers for the responses guys! Just checked out the organic chicken link. Still no information on how much space they get (other than they're allowed out) and obviously zero information on how they're killed. Are they still killed using the process as mention before? (electrocution, boiling water etc).

Obviously, I totally get that you shouldn't eat animals regardless. I guess what partly sparked this was that silly BBC thing about veggies eating organic meat


Are organic chickens ever de-beaked?

[herbwormwood]

Its not relevant in a vegan sense whether meat, milks or eggs are organic or not. Vegans don't use animal products.

[herbwormwood]

Cheers for the responses guys! Just checked out the organic chicken link. Still no information on how much space they get (other than they're allowed out) and obviously zero information on how they're killed.

That web site states
"Also, on Soil Association registered farms, the number of chickens housed in a single shed is restricted to 1,000. A non-organic intensive chicken farm may have as many as 40,000 in the same shed."
(my emphasis)

[Purple]

Yeah I noticed that. So they basically have 40 times more space than a battery/free-range chicken? (which isn't much).

I might have explained myself badly. I'm Vegan, I don't plan on eating any meat/dairy/eggs, organic or otherwise - ever.

I'm merely trying to get as much information about organic farming (the more negative the better) so that when the non-vegans say "what's wrong with organic meat?" I can tell them.

Telling them "eating meat is wrong" doesn't work. Listing all the reasons why organic meat is merely the food industry pulling a fast one, and it's still not much 'better', works more.


Cheers for the help though Worm Wood. All I need to do now is find out how big a "shed" is, and divide that by 1,000

Have there been any under-cover investigations of organic meat/dairy farms and discovered any 'shocking truths'? (like all those other videos that work so well). I had a look at home, but couldn't find much. Maybe I'll hit you tube when I get home tonight.

[RedWellies]

Are organic chickens ever de-beaked?

I don't know for sure but I would think not because one of the points of giving them more room is that they don't peck at each other.

[Barley]

Hi Purple, have you seen our 'Vegans and eggs'-thread?

Re. killing someone for food... when the vegetarian movement was born, all available meat, all eggs were organic. Organic and meat = two different topics, actually. Vegans and vegetarians don't eat meat because the animals are not organic - we just don't see how we have the right to kill an animal (organic or not) and eat it. We should respect others' right to decide if they want to live or become food, and just like humans, animals and birds prefer to live.

Korn - you have a way of putting things across so well

[Yogini]

I don't know about other countries, but in the U.S., "organic" doesn't mean dip squat in regards to how the animals were treated. It means no hormones or other unnatural substances were used in feeding/raising the animals.

Free-range tries to mean that the animals were not caged and had room to roam, but the term is not regulated. Nor is humane, cage-free, or anything like that. So when you see it on the package, you can't be sure the animal was "happy."

And, as many have pointed out, organic, free-range, or whatever, it's still dead. Or, in the case of eggs, they were stolen. (Chickens don't lay eggs for us to use.) My leading a happy life doesn't make it OK to shoot me in the head and eat my carcass. And just because I'm not using my ova doesn't mean they're here for others to take without my permission.

[MarkAnthony]

I don't have an ethical issue with eating eggs that are produced by chickens in genuine organic and free range conditions, that are well cared for and are never slaughtered, but I still almost certainly wouldn't eat them if the opportunity arose. I think it's that I don't really perceive them as food anymore, likewise with dairy, honey and meat.

[Korn]

I don't have an ethical issue with eating eggs that are produced by chickens in genuine organic and free range conditions

...another thing to consider is what the hen would have answered - if she could talk - if we asked her if she had an issue with having 200 menstrual periods a year instead of 10 - which she would have had if humans wouldn't take the eggs away from her...

[herbwormwood]

Telling them "eating meat is wrong" doesn't work. Listing all the reasons why organic meat is merely the food industry pulling a fast one, and it's still not much 'better', works more.

If people don't care much about animal welfare maybe they will listen more to arguments about how any kind of meat is bad for health and contributes to heart disease, diabetes, strokes and cancer, whether organic or not. I have recently finished reading "The China Study" by Colin Campbell, which is pretty convincing on this point and aimed at non vegans. Unfortunately some of his data comes from animal experiments, so may be offensive to some vegans. However there is a lot on the internet about the health risks of meat and dairy.

[Haniska]

I wish they'd put a warning on packets of Meat, like the cigarette ones, something like:
'WARNING, THIS MEAT MAY DAMAGE YOUR HEALTH - AND CERTAINLY DAMAGED THE HEALTH OF THE ANIMAL INVOLVED'.

My dad's gf asked me if I ate fish. She said "But I thought that fish is good for you!?" To which I replied, "It is not good for the fish."


Has anyone had the thought cross their mind that by trying to eat a healthier diet some people are eating more poultry and fish and thereby causing more deaths? You know, because you can get more meat out of a larger animal than a smaller one.

[Pob]

If it made the difference between someone providing a home to rescued/retired battery chickens or not, then it's acceptable to me personally that that person eats the eggs, provided that they look after the chicken even when it stops laying. They shouldn't label themselves as vegan, though.

If someone went out and specifically bought a female egg laying chicken, then that would be wrong. The seller would have killed the male chicks, and they would be supporting them with their money and encouraging them to keep doing it.

[aubergine]

I was under the impression that in the wild chickens eat their own eggs to make up the nutrients they lose when laying.

[Pob]

Hmmm - that was in reply to someone saying they wanted a "pet" chicken and asking if it was OK to eat the eggs. But that post was not moved here too.

I meant that it would be better for a battery chicken to live out the rest of her live relatively free, even if that was at the cost of her eggs being eaten. That doesn't mean that I think eating eggs is the right (or vegan) thing to do.

I'm not sure that battery chickens behave exactly like wild chickens anymore. I wouldn't expect wild chickens to produce large numbers of unfertilized eggs. Someone with rescue chickens can probably elaborate more.

[veglover89]

by the way, how does one go about adopting their own resuce chicken/turkey cos i would like to give a farm animal a home at sum point?!

[Klytemnest]

I was just wondering what other vegans thought of Organic/free range meat. Veganism is best but I know loads of people who just would never become vegan. The most to hope from them is that they make some effort to source their meat instead of getting facory farming which I feel is much much crueller then organic or free range meat.

I also think anyone who starts sourcing their meat is going in the right direction. It annoys me sometimes when some people seem to put all meat in the same catagree as it's likely to put people off doing anything at all if a switch from battery to organic/free range is not incouraged.

Organic meat is very expensive so people will naturally have to eat less meat. Which means they get to sample more veggie/vegan food and hopefully they decide meat is too expensive and decide to become veggie/vegan instead.

Plus Organic/free range meat is good for our carniverous/omnivoure pets.

(I meant to make this a poll but doesn't seem to have worked this time)

I just remember Alicia Silverstone's words that it does not have to be an all-or-nothing kind of deal. Yes, ideally everyone ought to be vegan. But it took me 37 years to finally get there. It would be unreasonable of me to demand that everyone become vegan immediately. It takes time. And buying organic meat and free-range eggs is indeed a step in the right direction. It decreases the amount of suffering in the world.

Back in the spring of 2006 a colleague/friend of mine took me to a vegan restaurant. She is not vegan herself, but is very health-conscious and sympathetic to the vegan cause. She was the first person to tell me about free-range eggs. I had no idea that ALL chickens were not free-range. Then I picked up a little brochure from the restaurant. And so I decided to only buy cage-free eggs. Then I also read the brochures on fish, beef, etc.. And within a month or so I had committed to a vegan diet. Then gradually veganism started to enter the rest of my lifestyle - vegan shampoo, conditioner, vegan shoes, vegan man-purse, vegan soap, vegan diswasher detergent...

So, for me at least, it was a step that soon led to veganism. It made me aware of all the suffering of innocent animals out there. It broke my heart. And I decided that the least I could do was not to contribute to it.

On the other hand, I worry that by buying organic meat and cage-free eggs, people's consciences will feel absolved of any further ethical responsibility. I hope people won't think that they have made it all better. Well, it is better, but the fact remains that organic meat and cage-free eggs come from enslaved animals that are eventually going to be slaughtered when they are no longer useful to their owners. I would not treat children that way, why would anyone else think it would be OK to treat animals that way?

Speciesism. Most of us are not even aware of it.

[elve]

monkeys aside, I wouldn't have a problem with eggs if the chickens were ex-battery rescues otherwise destined for slaughter, and if they had a lovely lifestyle.....However having been vegan a couple of months I have gone RIGHT off eggs - yuk yuk yuk!!!!! If I want scrambled egg, I use tofu, if I want egg fried rice, I use tofu, if I want to make a cake, I use tofu - so I can't really see anything I'd want eggs for, except fried egg sarnies, but I can't say I fancy them right now anyways

[horselesspaul]

monkeys aside, I wouldn't have a problem with eggs if the chickens were ex-battery rescues otherwise destined for slaughter, and if they had a lovely lifestyle.....However having been vegan a couple of months I have gone RIGHT off eggs - yuk yuk yuk!!!!! If I want scrambled egg, I use tofu, if I want egg fried rice, I use tofu, if I want to make a cake, I use tofu - so I can't really see anything I'd want eggs for, except fried egg sarnies, but I can't say I fancy them right now anyways

Eggs, wherever sourced, are not vegan.
Hope this helps.