health risk being vegan???

[kris]

i have been vegan for two years and for over a year i have been getting more fatigued and my memory has been declining. i make sure i take supplements and eat healthy. my doctor has told me that i need to start consuming dairy and eggs for my health. she said that there have been studies of long term vegans with severe and irreversable health conditions (blindness, brain deterioration, etc.) i'm afraid of these things happening to me if i don't listen to her but i don't want to consume dairy and eggs, the though. does anyone know of these studies and if these health conditions can happen by following a vegan diet? help please!!!

[Artichoke47]

I'd ask her exactly what nutrients she thinks that the cow milk (another species) and hens' eggs would provide for you that you can't get in food and a Vitamin B12 supplement. Funny how doctors make outrageous claims yet can't back them up.

[foxytina_69]

its very important to research majorly before starting any new diet. it sounds as if maybe u havnt done enough research and are lacking necessary nutrients. also, your symptoms could be those of many different diseases. i would go to a vegan friendly doctor, rather than one who immediately blames your symptoms on a vegan diet. contemporary medicine isnt very vegan friendly.

[veganmike]

she said that there have been studies of long term vegans with severe and irreversable health conditions (blindness, brain deterioration, etc.) i'm afraid of these things happening to me if i don't listen to her but i don't want to consume dairy and eggs, the though. does anyone know of these studies and if these health conditions can happen by following a vegan diet? help please!!!

I don't think you would find such studies. What you would find are single CASE STUDIES, stories in medical press about single individuals with such problems. Unfortunately such reports tend to be very superficial, that is, they only state that the individual followed "strict vegetarian/vegan" diet without looking on how it was followed. Once again, let me stress, there are NO large studies of long-term vegans which would prove they are bound to develop blindness, brain deterioration etc. In the end, it turns out that such people had really terrible diets, deprived of many nutrients etc.

My guess is that you MD had good intetnions of helping you, but she took bits and pieces of different studies and case studies and presented a FALSE picture of plant-based diet.

If you think your healh is deteriorating, I'd suggest re-examining your diet. You said you eat healthy, but that's very subjective. In fact, virtually all people think they eat healthy, but does it mean it's true?

I'll PM you some websites where you can read reliable stuff on vegan nutrition and check if you are getting everything you need.

On the other hand, it might be something totally different than your diet.

[harpy]

If your memory is declining and you are feeling tired to a greater extent than can be explained by your lifestyle (or by the passage of time in the case of memory problems!), then I would ask your doctor (or a different doctor) to investigate the reasons. There are problems that can cause these things, such as anaemia in the case of tiredness, which can be diagnosed by blood tests etc. and then corrected (without eating animal products).

Once you know what the problem is you can start to do something about it. It sounds as if your doctor has just taken a lazy way out in attributing the problem to your diet without exploring what it really is.

[eve]

It seems to me that the original msg from kris is almost identical to other postings I've read on this forum and other veg*n forums where people moan about being sick because of following a vegan diet. And how can anyone accept that "there have been studies of long term vegans with severe and irreversable health conditions (blindness, brain deterioration, etc)", without references? Why ask us about these studies, ask the doc, if he exists.

[foxytina_69]

i agree eve. it reminded me of sumbody recently posting about the health problems of veganism.

[gertvegan]

I'd ask her exactly what nutrients she thinks that the cow milk (another species) and hens' eggs would provide for you that you can't get in food and a Vitamin B12 supplement.

Ditto.

[wuggy]

Why on Earth do doctors always blame the diet anyway, when there are so many other possible factors - lifestyle, habits, herediatry illness, age, environment, etc.
Also, I kidded myself I was eating healthily til recently when I began eating mainly raw fruit and veg - which surely should make up most of anyone's healthy eating plan - and now I have so much energy, my skin is glowing and I feel alive!!

[kris]

the main reason i wrote in was to make sure that other long time vegans are healthy. if so, then i know i am lacking something in my diet. i do not want to go back to eating dairy and eggs so i wanted some affirmation. besides adding back dairy and eggs she wanted to start taking a B12 and folate supplement...so i thought maybe she knew what she was talking about. she was very convincing, at least while i was in the doctor's office.

[harpy]

Hi Kris - I have been eating a vegan diet for a bit more than 10 years and I feel pretty good (famous last words ) . I have got a tendency to be anaemic (pre-dating my vegetarianism) which is why I mentioned it - that has made me feel tired at times. My memory has never been that good but I haven't noticed any marked deterioration (that I can remember )

I have always eaten foods fortified with B12 and I often take a B12 supplement now. If you haven't been doing that I think it would be a wise move. Folate I wouldn't think you are short of in a vegan diet so perhaps ask the doc why she is recommending that, as well as what she thinks you will get from animal products that you can't get otherwise. As far as I'm aware B12 is the only thing that can't be obtained from vegan food (although some people will debate even that).

I don't know what country you are in but if it's available where you are you might want to look at a book published by the UK Vegan Society called "Plant-based Nutrition and Health" by Stephen Walsh - it summarises lots of recent scientific research relating to what should be included in one's diet for optimum health.

Edited to add that I went for a load of health checks (thyroid, blood pressure, cholesterol, anaemia, diabetes...) earlier this year after a relative had a stroke and I had an attack of late-40s hypochondria. Everything was fine except for my cholesterol which was borderline high (but is now OK) and to her credit my GP didn't complain at all about the fact that I am a vegan, though we did discuss it briefly in connection with the cholesterol thing. I certainly hadn't been eating or living particularly healthily for the previous year or two - had been going through a couch-potato, convenience-food phase

[mysh]

My memory has never been that good but I haven't noticed any marked deterioration (that I can remember )

lmao!!

[Artichoke47]

I would ask her to be very specific, explaining exactly which vitamins and/or minerals you are supposedly deficient in. If she can't do that, I'd say hell with her and get a different opinion. It sounds like she has an anti-vegan agenda.

I think I would have (and do have in my personal life) a serious problem with unhealthy omnivores (by default, of course) trying to criticize my lifestyle. It's absolutely absurd. I'm eating vegetables, whole grains, legumes, and fruit; they're eating Big Macs and Pizza Hut.

[Trendygirl]

Try http://www.veganmd.org/talks/#nutrition I found the lectures on this link very informative and they state most of the things in the Plant Nutrition book. I to have been a little worried about my health and I have been feeling as if my mind is going. However I don’t think that this is due to a vegan diet, more the fact that I haven’t been very active. I have taken a year out from university because of a bad back and stress which has meant that I haven’t been getting the exercise I need. It has prompted me to take more care of myself by eating more fruits/vegetables, drinking more water, taking B12 supplements and getting more exercise.

If you are planning to take calcium supplements I recommend that you take them just before you go to bed. Taking them with a meal can inhibit the absorption of the vitamins in your food, drinking milk of any kind with your meal/vitamin supplements can have the same effect. All supplements should be chewed well!

One of the causes of feeling lethargic is not drinking enough water so make sure you do! Also get more Iron in your diet from green leafy vegetables to make sure that you are not anaemic. If you are underweight I suggest that you eat more nuts/seeds, as well as more slow burning carbohydrates such as beans and portage. I also suggest that you force yourself to do more exercise, this may me a hard task, so start with some gentle yoga stretchers and work your way up. The more exercise you do, the more energy you will have.

[harpy]

Just thought that Kris's doc may be thinking about vitamin D since you can't get that from plants but can get it from dairy and eggs. However your body can make its own as long as you spend a reasonable amount of time outside in sunlight, or you can get supplements and fortified foods (just check they are vegan as some vitamin D isn't).

As far as I know vitamin D deficiency doesn't produce your symptoms, though.

[Trendygirl]

Yeah watch out when you are buying vitamin D, it might say it is suitable for vegetarians and presume that it is derived from plants. Don’t it may be made from sheep’s wool, doesn’t even sound veggie to me!

[wuggy]

It's quite odd that whilst we privately feel sure that a vegan diet is healthy (if sensibly balanced by eating wisely), when we don't feel good, we often question our diets.
I can only assume that is due to the fact that we are surrounded by people (even our health care providers) who are largely ignorant about nutrition and Holistic health matters.
I think we are also determined to prove that vegans are healthy, so we maybe get a little paranoid if we are not feeling too good ourselves?
I felt rough recently, really washed out, and started to question myself as to whether I was eating properly. Then I realised that in actual fact, running a shop, a house, caring for a 7 year old boy and a 53 year old boy (with Arthritis of the hip and back), and looking after several animals is really quite hard work, and maybe I just needed a rest? So I forced myself to be lazy for 48 hours, meditated lots, had several hot baths (one with salt and baking soda, works a treat!), and got some extra sleep - and, hey Presto! I feel fine again!
God knows how I would have coped if I was still on a highly processed ovo-lacto diet/lifestyle!!!

[Andie]

Kris,
Doctors can be very convincing especially when you're in their office and they have all the diplomas and all. I always get nervous when I go for a check up because I feel so small compared to them.
I've only been a vegan a few months so I can't help you on the long term health question. I did start taking a One A Daily mutlivitamin when I became a vegan.
Have your read any of Dr. Neal Barnard's books. He's an MD and advocates a vegan diet for health and ethical reasons. That may be reassuring for you. He's got a website, just type his name into a search engine if you're interested.

[Trendygirl]

Whatever you do, don’t take too much notice of General Practitioner Doctors as they have very little training in nutrition. Read up on the vegan doctors on the web, if you are really worried I suggest you ask your doctor to do some blood tests.

[kris]

i guess i have to do some research to get my diet to where it should be. i must admit when i became vegan i was very careful with what i was eating and making sure i took all of my supplements. lately i have been so good with taking the supplements. i also eat sweets which a lot of my fat comes from, i suppose i should stop eating those and get "good" fats from nuts, seeds, etc.
i was talking to my friend who recommended this doctor and asked him why she said to include dairy and eggs back into my diet (he has talked to her about veganism even though he's not even vegetarian). he claims that dairy and eggs will give you amino acids which you can't get in a vegan diet. they are for brain function. he also told me that he knows quite a few people that were vegan but are no longer because they didn't feel well. he claims humans are meant to consume dairy and eggs. is there a conspiracy that i'm unaware of???

[Artichoke47]

Yeah, we were meant to consume another species' secretions, all the while causing diabetes, heart disease, stroke, and cancer.

[Hasha]

he claims that dairy and eggs will give you amino acids which you can't get in a vegan diet. they are for brain function.

Aren't amino acids just protein components? Hmm...

[~*Blue*~]

i went to a doctor not too long ago and she said that she doesn't let her husband or children have any dairy because it's not "healthy." she told me that dairy creates excess mucous and i should definately stay away from it b/c i have allergies. this doctor wasn't a vegetarian either. even my nutrition proffesor (nutrition for health care) said that a vegan diet is very healthy.....maybe your doctor isn't very educated on the vegan way of eating? then again, i'm no doctor....

[wuggy]

Yeah, at the end of the day, doctors are just people (all be it highly trained professional people) with their own opinions and views. I do my own health research on the net or in books, which is actually all my doctor does, too.

[John]

Make sure to eat flaxseed oil. People who don't eat fish often don't have enough omega-3.

And seriously, you could have something totally unrelated to being a vegan and it doesn't sound like your doctor is ready to consider that. Only after you have been eating meat for a while and you still have those symtoms will she look for anything else.

[tails4wagging]

Yes, I would ignore that irresponsible advise about eating dairy.
See my previous thread about comments from the nursing staff 'you look to healthy to be a vegan'.
My blood profile is normal, I am not anaemic. I suggest that anyone who has that type of conversation request a full blood count, then that will shut these narrow minded doctors up.
They should be aware that dairy milk causes more mucus and helps clog the arteries increasing blood pressure and increasing the risk of heart disease along with other dairy products.
Perhaps, they are scared that if everyone goes vegan their workload would decrease dramatically and the risk of losing their jobs!!.

[gertvegan]

Amino acids were mentioned above. Jack Norris has a "Where Do You Get Your Protein?" article HERE which mentions them.

[harpy]

Kris, here's another link to an article dealing with the amino acid question.

http://www.vrg.org/nutrition/protein.htm

Essentially, some animal foods (and also soya and quinoa) have a fuller spectrum of amino acids than vegetables do. But if you eat a variety of plant protein sources (as you almost certainly do!) you will be getting a complete set anyway. Your body can combine them as necessary.

[drummer]

Hey kris, I have been vegan for 5 1/2 years now, and I'm getting stronger and healthier every day. I need extra iron, protein and calories because I am a drummer and I use up a lot more energy and I need extra strength. When I first became vegan, I was not getting enough calories, and that is why I was always tired and weak. I was also underweight. In the last 3 years I have gained 5kg, while sticking to the vegan diet. Perhaps its simply calories and protein you are lacking. I always add nuttelex or sunflower or olive oil to my cooking now, and I eat at least 1 cup of soy milk (whole bean milk) 250g soy yogurt, 1 serving of beans (1 cupful) and 100g vegan convenience product (eg. veg sausage/tofu/tempeh) everyday for protein and calories. If I did not do this, I'd lose weight and starve. I almost always eat wholemeal grains, because they contain more nutrition.
If you need an iron boost, try Fergon from your chemist. Take iron with vitamin C and B12, but do not take it with calcium as this causes malabsorbtion.
There is also a vegan product you can supplement your diet with - "Lady Bird Figure Shape" is a soy protein powder that is vegan. It is sold in health food shops. It states that it is for weight loss, (meal replacement) however if you consume this on top of what you already eat, it may give you a boost.
So Kris, if all this fails then perhaps you should see an un-biased dietition/nutritionist. This doctor of yours has out of date information and is trying to mislead you with false information. There is a group of doctors who support the vegan diet, The Physicians Committee For Responsible Medicine. Perhaps you could email the head doctor there and explain your condition - they might be able to help you. www.pcrm.org is their web address.
Good Luck!

[mattd]

i have been vegan for two years and for over a year i have been getting more fatigued and my memory has been declining. i make sure i take supplements and eat healthy. my doctor has told me that i need to start consuming dairy and eggs for my health. she said that there have been studies of long term vegans with severe and irreversable health conditions (blindness, brain deterioration, etc.) i'm afraid of these things happening to me if i don't listen to her but i don't want to consume dairy and eggs, the though. does anyone know of these studies and if these health conditions can happen by following a vegan diet? help please!!!

Most doctors aren't trained in nutrition. Usually they don't take more than one or two classes over it (if that) in med school. If you're really concerned, meet with a nutritionist. You can look at exactly what you're eating to make sure you are meeting all your requirements. They can run tests and see if you may need to take any specific suppliments that you may be missing.

[mattd]

Aren't amino acids just protein components? Hmm...

Yeah, there's supposedly like 7 essential amino acids (the number maybe different than 7 but i can't remember). Meat has all of these. The only plant source that does have all of them is soy, but it's easy to get a "complete" protien by combining (like putting peanut butter on whole wheat bread). According to studies they're essential for various biological operations throughout the body. But the biggest problem with the study was that it was done on rats, never on humans. So there's no proof that there is such a thing as essential amino acids for humans.

But even if it true, it's very easy to get all of these amino acids. They're all readily available in various plant sources, enough so that if you eat healthy you'll meet your requirements without even thinking about it.

[veganmike]

The only plant source that does have all of them is soy, but it's easy to get a "complete" protien by combining (like putting peanut butter on whole wheat bread)

That is not entirely true. MANY plant foods have ALL essential amino acids, not only soy. It just that the amount of each amino acid is different in these foods.

"Some people are under the impression that some plant proteins are devoid of at least one essential amino acid. The truth is that all plant proteins (that I have looked up) have some of every essential amino acid."

[kris]

vegan drummer - i think you are right. for the past week i have altered my diet, i have been eating more and have added beans and whole grains to most meals. i have been snacking also. i believe i have gain a little bit of weight in this short time. i feel a little bit sharper mentally and a little more creative even while not getting a lot of sleep recently. i have also started taking my iron/b12/folic acid supplement again everyday along with eating nuts and flax seeds.
i have also done a lot of research and i am totally convinced adding dairy and eggs back into my diet is not essential. eating right is key. hopefully i keep improving health wise with the new and improved way of eating. if anything, the doctor helped me to reevaluate the way in which i was eating and now i think better understanding of vegan nutrition.

[drummer]

someone deleted my message?

[MzNatural]

someone deleted my message?

Did you post another message on this thread? I saw your previous message that I have included below. If not you could follow up with the administrator, Korn.

Default
Hey kris, I have been vegan for 5 1/2 years now, and I'm getting stronger and healthier every day. I need extra iron, protein and calories because I am a drummer and I use up a lot more energy and I need extra strength. When I first became vegan, I was not getting enough calories, and that is why I was always tired and weak. I was also underweight. In the last 3 years I have gained 5kg, while sticking to the vegan diet. Perhaps its simply calories and protein you are lacking. I always add nuttelex or sunflower or olive oil to my cooking now, and I eat at least 1 cup of soy milk (whole bean milk) 250g soy yogurt, 1 serving of beans (1 cupful) and 100g vegan convenience product (eg. veg sausage/tofu/tempeh) everyday for protein and calories. If I did not do this, I'd lose weight and starve. I almost always eat wholemeal grains, because they contain more nutrition.
If you need an iron boost, try Fergon from your chemist. Take iron with vitamin C and B12, but do not take it with calcium as this causes malabsorbtion.
There is also a vegan product you can supplement your diet with - "Lady Bird Figure Shape" is a soy protein powder that is vegan. It is sold in health food shops. It states that it is for weight loss, (meal replacement) however if you consume this on top of what you already eat, it may give you a boost.
So Kris, if all this fails then perhaps you should see an un-biased dietition/nutritionist. This doctor of yours has out of date information and is trying to mislead you with false information. There is a group of doctors who support the vegan diet, The Physicians Committee For Responsible Medicine. Perhaps you could email the head doctor there and explain your condition - they might be able to help you. www.pcrm.org is their web address.
Good Luck!

[snaffler]

In a nutshell pardon the pun

OK eat Dairy/Meat/Saturates/Growth Hormaones in Animals and see what happens if thats what is supposed to be good for you -

But i do not care what the so-call officials tell us I will rather die from a cruelty free diet than die full of rotting flesh.

[Artichoke47]

I guess if everyone was a vegan, the cardiologists and oncologists might go out of business.

[snaffler]

I guess if everyone was a vegan, the cardiologists and oncologists might go out of business.

Very good answer - perhaps you have hit the nail on the head propaganda from this lot perhaps - The Dairy Marketing Board - The Meat Mearketing Board and The Cardiologists and Oncologists.


Don't trust them kids they will only kill you.

[drummer]

About the deleted message, I just got a bit confused because I still didn't know how to use this forum correctly yet.
Also, about the amino acid thing - Soy protein has all the amino acids humans need, without the cholesterol and artery-clogging fat. It is superior to animal protein because it is not high in sulphur.

[tails4wagging]

Amino acid is the building blocks of life so everything that is living holds amino acids including plants.

[drummer]

Actually, I think you misunderstood what I ment. Amino acids are the building blocks of proteins. There are around 20 amino acids, and humans need at least 8 of these in the diet becuase our bodies cannot maufacture them. Plant foods have various amounts of some acids, but the only plant protein which contains all of the amino acids humans need is soy protein. This makes it a better choice than other plant protein sources.

[veganmike]

Again, this is not entirely true. See http://veganforum.com/forums/showpos...1&postcount=32

[Fruitbat]

I havent read all the posts since the first one but i wud like to point out that brain and immune and nervous system all require ESSENTIAL oils so get out there and buy some supplements and start muching on those seeds - i particulalry recommend UDO'S OIL SUPPLEMENT which can be added to anything - i put it in banana smoothies and home-made soups

[phillip888]

On th subject of amino acids, there is a wide variety of plants that have all essential amino acids. By wide I mean hundreds of edible plants. Soy is actually not even close to the top of the list for amino acid availability and ratio. Plants are a better source of protein than dead animal bodies, in fact a lot of people seem to miss the fact that animals get their essential amino acids from somewhere (hint plants). Herbivores have the ability to synthesize the widest variety of amino acids from the most narrow variety of dietary amino acids. That narrow variety of amino acids are called essential because they're required to make the other ones. None of the essential amino acids are exclusive to animal parts and pus. Just like every other nutrient required by humans.

Kris, big issues for vegans feeling the symptoms of fatigue and mental sluggishness are the same as omnis. Calorie count is common, not enough carbs, vitamin D, B12, and EFAs. B12 is a well known issue and possibly effects almost half the population (vegan, vegetarian, and omni), but Vitamin D is one that many people miss. If you're not fortifying Vitamin D while not getting sun exposure for whatever reason, you will suffer deficiency within months. Vitamin D is much more essential than most people seem to comprehend. The best source is sun exposure for any person of any diet. If you do supplimentation make sure you're not exceding recommended levels, because Vitamin D toxicity is serius, it's more like Vitamin D injury...

Oh, and if you feel weightgain, well you know, work out and stuff.

[lolamako]

Quinoa: A really easy and quick grain to cook. This should be in every vegans pantry.

http://www.wholehealthmd.com/refshel...523,74,00.html

[Mystic]

Quinoa: A really easy and quick grain to cook. This should be in every vegans pantry.

I love Quinoa, but it is just way too expensive and I never know what to eat with it anyway!!!!! Any suggestions?

[lolamako]

Quinoa is sooo cheap where I live its like .73 a pound or something. its cheaper than rice here...
I dont know if I posted this on this forum or another one but you can throw in a veggie bullion cube into your rice cooker, and add some garbonzo beans/chickpeas. and some shredded carrot.

I eat it with anything I would eat rice with. we just had a quinoa pilaf and roasted butternut squash tonight.

[drummer]

Well, VeganMike, you say soy protein does not have all the amino acids - then explain to me why my soy protein powder contains all of the essential and non-essential amino acids. Expalin why the tofu and tempeh I buy has all the amino acids. Explain why the TVP I buy has 49g of protein per 100g and contains all the amino acids. Are you a nutritionist? It would be good if you are, maybe we could all learn something from you if you know so much.

[phillip888]

Well, VeganMike, you say soy protein does not have all the amino acids - then explain to me why my soy protein powder contains all of the essential and non-essential amino acids. Expalin why the tofu and tempeh I buy has all the amino acids. Explain why the TVP I buy has 49g of protein per 100g and contains all the amino acids. Are you a nutritionist? It would be good if you are, maybe we could all learn something from you if you know so much.

I think he was saying the opposite, that more than just soy has all the essential aminos, very much what I also commented. Soy protein is promoted for a few reasons. Total protein in a soy bean is around 30%, which is high for plant foods, and much higher than most animals foods. Soy is also a high yield crop. In fact you can get up to twenty tons of soy from an acre of land, which is impressive. Mostly though, it's profitable. It also happens to be very useful for crop rotation, again useful and profitable. I'm not saying soy is bad, but really it's actual protein and nutritional value isn't unique, and it's actually outclassed by many other plant foods. Quinoa (pronounced KEEN-wah) being a great example.


PS. I think veganmike might just be a very advanced turing test, so don't get too distracted.

[DontJustDoSomething, SitThere]

PS. I think veganmike might just be a very advanced turing test, so don't get too distracted.

Please explain??