"Pets" - Which of these statements do you agree with?

[cobweb]

thanks Wendy, that looks great!

[Mahk]

Wendy's fences do look secure, however...
[YOUTUBE]QvkCtnmBWoo[/YOUTUBE]

[YOUTUBE]vByq__eAuM0[/YOUTUBE]

[YOUTUBE]h-hw4JNW5iI[/YOUTUBE]

Also animals have been known to bypass fences by digging under them. just mentioning.

[wendy]

Yes, the fence goes in the ground.
But I must say, none of my cats has tried to dig. That's more a dog thing.

Cobweb, I hope you mean the cats (asks the proud mother)

[sandra]

Wendy, I too look after 11 cats and have my large back garden 'cat-proofed'. It cost quite a bit of money to have it done but it was either that or face the constant compaints from the neighbours about the fact that 11 cats were running through their gardens.
In an ideal world cats shouldn't be kept as 'pets' or even kept in 'cat-proofed' gardens but until the whole world is vegan there will always be cats who need protection from humans.

[wendy]

Yes, I know if you have to hire someone to do it it isn't cheap.
Luckily my father is handy and made our fence, so the cost was low.
I think it's the best of both worlds. They can enjoy the outdoor. But they are safe from traffic and cathaters.

[cobweb]

Wendy the fencing looks great and the cats of course are beautiful! x

[sandra]

Yes, I know if you have to hire someone to do it it isn't cheap.
Luckily my father is handy and made our fence, so the cost was low.
I think it's the best of both worlds. They can enjoy the outdoor. But they are safe from traffic and cathaters.

I agree Wendy!
We did hire someone to build ours, it cost around £1,500 and the meshing goes completely over the top of it. Yours is a much better idea though, the mesh only needs to be a little way over to stop the cats climbing out.

As you say they have the best of both worlds. They have never tried to climb the fence to get out so they must be happy enough in the garden, and coming into the house when they want. Infact, when the feral cat who had her kittens in our house was spayed we let her out again as we thought she would be happier. We were wrong...........she just kept coming back to us, so now she stays happily with her babies (although they are 8yrs old now!)

I think the cats have a better life than I do. On really hot summer nights they don't want to come in from the garden and love to sleep under the stars all night...............I wish I could do that when it's very hot!

[wendy]

Hi Sandra. Most of the cats I have are wild ferals and they never even tried to escape. My tame cats did try
I think the ferals don't want to because they love their life and still remember the horror of trying to survive on the streets. The tame ones think their are only happy endings to every adventure

[sandra]

Ha ha! that's true Wendy!

Have you noticed the feral cats responding to you more and more?
When the feral I look after first came to me she was aggressive if you tried to go near her. Now, she actively seeks attention and we are even able to stroke her without having our hands clawed to shreds!

[Manzana]

Wendy's fences do look secure, however...

Also animals have been known to bypass fences by digging under them. just mentioning.

Great videos... however, none of those fences were curved at the top towards the garden the dog/cat is going to try climb from (see Wendy's fence)...

All climbers (human or not) know that it is hard work to climb a "backwards slope" or overhanging wall/fence...

[Mahk]

That's true which is why I mentioned hers look secure. The wrap over the top part must indeed do the trick for all animals except those that can hang by just two limbs, like an ape.

[Mahk]

Have you noticed the feral cats responding to you more and more?
When the feral I look after first came to me she was aggressive if you tried to go near her. Now, she actively seeks attention and we are even able to stroke her without having our hands clawed to shreds!

That's interesting, I wonder if she sees how other cats get attention and seem to like it and then realizes maybe she should try it to? What do you think? Monkey see, monkey do?

[sandra]

I don't know Mahk, she just seemed to gradually come around to realising that we meant her no harm. It took a long time for us to gain her trust but I think we're getting there. The best of it is that she purrs the loudest of all the cats...............and to see her lying curled up on my bed entwined with one of her daughters just makes me feel so happy.
Sorry for rambling on but I just love having her live with us and I hope that she has a better life here than she would have had living wild. I often wonder what would have happened to the six kittens she had.................here they are loved and cared for...........what would life have been like for them out there?

[wendy]

The 6 wild ones all come for cuddles ,all but one come sit on my lap and come lay with me in the sofa. For some it took years, but the trust just grows and keeps on growing. Only doing things like giving pills or vaccinating them is impossible. They keep the wild streak. But for every problem we just seek a solution, like catchind them with a net and vaccinating through the net and knowing their favorite foods to crush pills in. But I get as much love and affection from the wild cats then from the tame ones.
My viewpoint was always they come when they want to and if they never come for a cuddle then that's okay to. And after years I cannot get them away from me

[sandra]

It's good they trust you so much Wendy. The feral who lives with us has been here about 8 years now but she still wouldn't sit on our laps, she does allow us to stroke her though and loves it!
Her 6 kittens are the most loving cats ever and are always seeking attention!

[Fireweed]

I was looking for the gardening thread and found this one instead. Go figure. Thought I'd revive it and throw in my two cents...

I agree with sharing your house/life with animals if they are rescues and if you can provide them with the best possible care. I do not agree with any kind of animal trade or breeding. All 'pets' should be spayed/neutered. When/if there is one 'pet' left, I'd be sad but I'd be so happy that they won't be exploited anymore for our benefit. Sure, some of our cats and dogs have a pretty sweet life...but that's because we chose it for them. And unfortunately just because an animal is 'domesticated' doesn't mean s/he actually lives a sweet life,as we vegans know--so many 'pet owners' are simply that: pet owners.

It would be a great world if all humans knew how to have respectful relationships with wild animals----to enjoy their company on truly mutually 'agreed' upon terms. But it seems it's human nature to want to own and dominate that which we truly can't. So we end up with 'pets' and neverending rescues from this need/desire to exploit them.

On another note: I also have a huge cat yard (750ft of fencing attached to one side of the house). The fence is floppy and not rigid like chain-link, so the cats can't climb up it. It also has a lip at the top like Wendy's and her friend's fence does but it also has a lip at the bottom, too. My husband and I built it ourselves. It wasn't difficult, it took about two weeks to put up, and all together it cost about $1200.00 (Canadian). We've also put a mesh cover over the top and sides to ensure birds or squirrels can't get in (we don't want cats killing birds or raptors killing cats!). Further, we've also put collars around some of the trees close to the edge of the fence so that the cats can't climb up, gnaw through the mesh, and jump out (if that would ever happen---and you never know!). The cat yard isn't on a lawn but covers an area which includes a grove of trees, bushes, and a small plain. This fenced area also serves as a dog yard, although we have two much larger versions for our dogs. The dog fences have over 2000ft of fencing with lips at the tops and lips at the bottoms and logs nailed down around the bottom of the fence over the lip to keep the dogs from digging under. We have a houdini dog, and she can't get out of it. We also had wild bison charge the fence when the dogs were in it one time and the fence held up!

Anyhoo, just thought I'd share that because obviously I agree that it's possible to let your cats outside and keep them safe from outdoor hazards and to keep wildlife safe from them.

[hanseidavid]

I definitely don't agree with the 'pet trade' and I don't think that I could keep an animal in a cage. If I was getting a pet, I would get a rescued animal. I think that, in the current climate, an animal could be much better off with a caring vegan 'owner' than otherwise.
So, I don't think it is wrong for vegans to have pets although I do think that it is wrong for vegans to support the pet industry.

My main problem with it is pet food. I think that I'm going to make a thread in the general forum about vegan pet food (which is why I decided to post here in the first place - thought it would be good to talk to other vegans about it).

[screamingvegan]

As someone who has volunteered in animal rescue for years, one of my dreams is to see the end of breeding and otherwise making a profit from all animals. I believe abandoned and abused companion animals are OWED our compassion, protection and love. I am greatly drawn to feral/semi-feral cats, and take them into my home with the promise of never being hurt again, and seeking my attention/affection on their own terms. Although I love the animals I work with, I would love it if the shelter I work with would go out of business.

[Mahk]

I saw this great video I thought to share because it shows several principals I consider critical in evaluating dog ownership, oops, pardon me, I meant dog cohabitation with humans.

A) Since this dog is nearly identical to several other breeds of completely wild dog we have in North America, called the Carolina dog, as well as some in Africa and Israel, which similarly have had no connection to humans for thousands and thousands of years, it shows how dogs should look like if they were allowed to have evolved naturally, as opposed to the systematic genetic manipulation called artificial breeding (culling!) which we unethically used to manufacture the various breeds we all know and have today like pits, poodles, German Shepherds, Chihuahuas, etc.

B) If we were to no longer keep dogs and phased them out gradually, grandfathering the existing ones and without killing or abandoning any either, it wouldn't mean the species becomes extinct at all. They exist in nature, right now, so the concept of having to corral some in "sanctuaries", which some of us mulled over earlier in the thread, would be pointless.

The video.

[leedsveg]

Good post Mahk. I wonder why people felt a need to bring any of these dogs out of their normal habitat in New Guinea? Why couldn't they have just left them there?

lv

[Mahk]

^ Thanks, I agree. Even more dire is the situation with the Carolina dog found on my continent, not discovered until the, yikes, 1970's. Their numbers are small but people are now stealing them from nature and breeding them because they are popular as pets and unlike the SDNG are even better at adapting to a family with kids, I believe.
[Yet they've lived with zero human contact for thousands of year. Very interesting.]

Carolina dog puppies in the wild. They are so cute.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ca...s20020401a.jpg

Adults look very similar to SDNG:
http://images.google.com/images?hl=e...ed=0CBcQsAQwAA

P.S. I emailed the dog expert from Tufts University, Dr. Nicholas Dodman, who speaks in the video I linked to above, and he confirmed to me that the SDNG and the Carolina dog are exactly the same species as our domesticated dogs and can of course by definition interbreed with them and have fertile offspring.

[missbettie]

dog breeding freaks me out. we are creating mutants that are useful for our needs. mutants!!!!! ew...

[vtveg]

Mahk....or anyone for that matter; as a recently turned vegan-for-life, I have been struggling with the fact that i have two salt water aquariums, which in the vegan world, isn't considered vegan. I've had my eel for almost 5 years, and my tanks were here long before I decided to become vegan. Now.....do I get rid of it all since it's not "vegan"? I've thought about this and this is my feeling on that; I know that I'm at least providing them with a healthy environment, taking care of them to the best of my ability. If I were to give them back to the pet store or sell them, they may very well go to an inexperienced aquarist who would kill them through lack of care knowledge, my live stock could get sick and die a slow death in someone else's tank, or some young ignorant inexperienced individual could buy my eel and large hermit crab for entertainment purposes, having them in the same tank so they could attack each other.......these are all possible if I were to get rid of them. And, as silly as it might sound to some people, I have become attached to my aquarium livestock. So I feel, since they were here before my veganism (much like my leather boots, leather belt, etc. which I won't throw out until they're worn out since I don't want to contribute to waste and harming the environment) I would rather care for them properly for the remainder of their life, rather than potentially put them in an unhealthy, harmful environment.

Mahk, when you mentioned you have no problem with friendship between species as long as.......I couldn't help but see a relation in my situation to the two below;

A) cage, chain, leash (lead?/EU), fence in, keep under house arrest, or contain in a glass box the other one thereby restricting their freedom and movement.

E) kill the other species or dump them when they are no longer wanted.

If I were to get rid of my livestock in their "glass box" wouldn't I then be "dumping them when they are no longer wanted?."

I will no longer purchase any livestock. Period. But I feel that the decision I have made is best for the well being of the livestock, the animals, and isn't that a part of veganism too? They were here prior so I feel a responsibility to care for them, not put them back into the system.....where they'll be bought again, maybe sold again, and bought....

[harpy]

I think it would be wrong to dump them, vtveg, asuming they can't be released back into their natural environment. As you say, you're responsible for them, so the only thing you can do in my opinion is give them the best life you can.

[Mahk]

So I feel, since they were here before my veganism (much like my leather boots, leather belt, etc. which I won't throw out until they're worn out since I don't want to contribute to waste and harming the environment) I would rather care for them properly for the remainder of their life, rather than potentially put them in an unhealthy, harmful environment.

That's sounds smart to me. The concept is called "grandfathering", which I personally endorse. All existing pets are cared for in loving homes, as best we can, for the remainder of their natural lives (or they become terminally ill), none are abandoned, killed, or kicked out on to the streets (or ocean or ponds) to fend for themselves. Vegans without any animals may even seek out new pets to give loving homes to if they choose to, just as long as they never buy them, which gives the breeders who made them an incentive to create more, and should instead only adopt them from shelters or from friends giving them away.

I will no longer purchase any livestock. Period. But I feel that the decision I have made is best for the well being of the livestock, the animals, and isn't that a part of veganism too? They were here prior so I feel a responsibility to care for them, not put them back into the system.....where they'll be bought again, maybe sold again, and bought....

Tragically, because we have all these various animals in our custody, we do often have to make hard decisions and manipulate/limit their lives by dictating their sex life, food intake, bathroom rights, mobility (cages and leashes/leads), etc., but it is the best we can do to protect them from this alien environment they are in with our limited facilities. All these reasons highlight why humans have no right to steal animals from nature in the first place, but the ones we've already stolen deserve a happy life as best as we can provide; we just shouldn't be perpetuating the crime by breeding more and more, year after year.

[wendy]

Well put, Makh

[African_Prince]

We shouldn't be breeding non-human animals for companionship but the domestic non-humans that already exist are dependent on humans. We have no choice but to care for them, most cats and dogs regard their 'owners' as family members and will voluntarily come home on their own (at least cats will).

[EcoTribalVegan]

Against pet ownership. That being said for the sake of the animals in shelters as a result of the pet, slave-trade, it is morally excusable to take them in to prevent their death(s).

[wendy]

agreed. Glad to see many vegans are against pet ownership (or should I say pet slavery)

[fiamma]

Wow.... interesting to see so many categorical anti-pet views. I never saw keeping pets as being a particularly anti-vegan activity... you live and learn, I guess.

[harpy]

My impression is that most people are against breeding them, but not so much against keeping rescued animals? (Of course in the case of us that enjoy living with non-human animals our bluff is unlikely to be called because there are so many rescued ones needing homes, unfortunately.)

[wendy]

I don't think that anyone who loves animals can be against adopting unwanted pets.

[MyInnerHippie]

I have never purchased an animal for my own amusement. The only "pet" I've ever had are cats that have been rescued as kittens from people who did not want them. I think people and animals can have amazing bonds together and I don't think it is wrong to love an animal in the confines of your home. Whether that is a cat/dog situation. Or a cow/horse type of thing on your farm. I will miss my kitty dearly when she is gone, but I don't plan on replacing her with a shiny new one from the pet store!!

[VeganLu]

I voted "no" to "should a vegan have a companion animal". However, about 2 years ago a pregnant cat was dumped into our backyard. We set her up in our garage with a kitty door so she can go in and out at will. She had only one kitten. I feed them every day, pet them, kiss them, worry about them, but they are living a much better life than a cat that does not go out. Yes, I know they kill other small animals, but that is no different than what humans do to non-human animals. The amount of animals that people torture and KILL is well over the number of that of a cat who catches a bird or mouse every now and then. Due to the harsh winter we are having, the 2 cats that are living in my garage are slowly but surely becoming interested in living with me and my husband in our house. We will let them live with us, but they will still be able to go outdoors whenever they want to. I get much pleasure letting these 2 cats be cats, and the only way a cat can be completely happy is if they have freedom to go in and out at will. I cannot understand why all vegans do not feel the same. All animals, not just food animals, should be able to be happy too. But, like I said before, I personally believe that all vegans should not go out of their way to obtain a dog or a cat. First, most people with cats, do not let them go outdoors. This is captivity. Period. And, I must say, that most people who have dogs, do not walk their dogs. They let them out in a yard, or do not let them out at all. This is captivity. Period.

[RubyDuby]

I can't imagine many people dnot letting their dogs out at all... do you think they just let them go to the bathroom inside? I'm curious where you found this info about most dogs and cats.

I don't usually walk my dogs. They have a yard (about an acre). I open the door, they go out and let themselves in when they feel like it (which is usually after 2 to 5 minutes). You're entitled to your opinion and I'm entitled to disagree with it based on my experience. How is it abuse to let a dog out into a yard off leash, but not abuse to walk them on a leash?

My dogs also go to doggy daycare everyday, but that's only bc I work here. When we go for walks at the park they are off leash, unless there is a park ranger around since it's illegal to have your dog off leash.

[VeganLu]

To all the vegans that have posted here that have dogs, I have a question for you. Do you walk your dog(s) everyday? If you don't, I consider this animal abuse.

[Manzana]

VeganLu,

I think that is a fairly strong opinion to have about people you do not know. I may well consider buying meat cat food unvegan (they are after all tortured animals that have ended up in a tin for your cats to eat). Nevertheless, I would not dream to say that you are an animal abuser on the basis of buying cat food. This would be a very simplistic approach.

Noone is a perfect vegan. And many dogs have much happier lives not being walked every day than if they were starving in the streets... This is my opinion... I neither have dogs nor cat companion animasl...

[RubyDuby]

I'm having trouble seeing why a dog needs to be walked on a leash every day to not be abused... you're seeing the tiniest little detail of their life. They also run around and chase each other inside and have free access to come and go (into a yard all day).

[VeganLu]

I am glad that you have more than one dog and have an acre of land for them to play in and do their business. Does this mean that you have to go and pick up their business so that the yard does not get full of shit? But, in my opinion, the reason your dogs want to come in after 5 or 10 minutes is because they want to be with you. If you stayed in your yard for an hour, I bet your dogs would not want to go in so soon. It is much more convenient for YOU to just let them out in your yard. Your dogs are still in captivity. I am sorry if I am offending you, but being vegan means going all the way when it comes to animals.

Have you ever gone to a park where they have a doggy run (I think that is what it is called). It is so much fun to watch many, many dogs playing with each other, just like when you bring a child to play in a park. I think that all parks should have doggy runs.

I know many people who have small dogs and have them trained to go on some type of pad or something. I have 2 neighbors that I had no idea they had a dog, but my husband told me they did because he hears them barking from inside the house. Sure enough, I heard them barking the other day. These 2 different houses don't have a fenced in yard, and obviously, they don't walk them, because we never have seen them. It's 5 years already! I have another neighbor who also does not have a fenced in yard. They just open the back door, and 2 huge dogs go out to do their business, and as soon as they are finished, the door opens and the dogs go back into the house. What is that all about?

[VeganLu]

I already said that having a cat or dog comprises a vegan's belief in not supporting the meat industry. You must not have read my entire post. My cats go out at will, but not into a gated yard. By the way, after these 2 cats pass away, I am going to live up to my belief that vegans should not have companion animals. I had already been companion animal free for about 6 months, and me and my husband felt so good about it. But then this pregnant cat showed up. Her and her son are having a ball, I must say.

Even though I have 2 cats, I also wrote that I voted "no" to the question that asked if vegans should have companion animals.

[VeganLu]

By the way, I think it is great that you take your dogs to the park. Do you take them to the park year round? Do you have winter where you live? Do you take them to the park in the winter too? By the way, I do not think that walking a dog is a tiny detail to a dog's life. I watch dogs that are being walked on a leash and they are very happy, especially when they see another dog and the 2 guardians let the 2 dogs meet each other.

[VeganLu]

I apologize Manzana. I must have deleted the part of my post about feeling bad when I go to the grocery story and purchase catfood. I feel bad not only because I am buying meat, but I am supporting the meat industry. I was cutting and pasting when I wrote that post (#834), and I apparently screwed up and lost that part of my post.

[Manzana]

But, in my opinion, the reason your dogs want to come in after 5 or 10 minutes is because they want to be with you. If you stayed in your yard for an hour, I bet your dogs would not want to go in so soon. It is much more convenient for YOU to just let them out in your yard. Your dogs are still in captivity. I am sorry if I am offending you, but being vegan means going all the way when it comes to animals.

SO in the spirit of being constructive... what do you suggest Ruby should do with her dogs if she could not walk them every day? Put them in a shelter? Leave them free to roam the streets and at the mercy of all the compasionate human beings we share the world with?

BTW, are your cats sterilised? Is this not animal abuse too according to your books? (i can tell you if another animal forced me to have an hysterectomy I would feel pretty abused myself)...

[RubyDuby]

I am glad that you have more than one dog and have an acre of land for them to play in and do their business. Does this mean that you have to go and pick up their business so that the yard does not get full of shit? But, in my opinion, the reason your dogs want to come in after 5 or 10 minutes is because they want to be with you. If you stayed in your yard for an hour, I bet your dogs would not want to go in so soon. It is much more convenient for YOU to just let them out in your yard. Your dogs are still in captivity. I am sorry if I am offending you, but being vegan means going all the way when it comes to animals.

Have you ever gone to a park where they have a doggy run (I think that is what it is called). It is so much fun to watch many, many dogs playing with each other, just like when you bring a child to play in a park. I think that all parks should have doggy runs.

I know many people who have small dogs and have them trained to go on some type of pad or something. I have 2 neighbors that I had no idea they had a dog, but my husband told me they did because he hears them barking from inside the house. Sure enough, I heard them barking the other day. These 2 different houses don't have a fenced in yard, and obviously, they don't walk them, because we never have seen them. It's 5 years already! I have another neighbor who also does not have a fenced in yard. They just open the back door, and 2 huge dogs go out to do their business, and as soon as they are finished, the door opens and the dogs go back into the house. What is that all about?

I'm spending time justifying myself to you to try to get you to see you can't make sweeping generalizations like that. I'm afraid that you've come up with this opinion without knowing the first thing about me or my dogs.

Of course I pick up the shit that's outside, in my yard... not quite the same as cleaning up shit in your house. I doubt that's the norm, but I'm not going to pretend to know what everybody else does and I don't spend time standing at my window watching what my neighbors do, so I'm not really in position to judge them either.

Like I said, I work at a doggy daycare, which essentially is a dog park where dogs run around and play together. So, yes, I'm well aware of how rewarding that is. My dogs mostly just lay on the couch here though... There aren't any free dog parks around here... only on-leash parks, which is where I take mine.

It is absolutely true that dogs just want to spend time with their people, but I know my particular dogs don't want to be outside. First of all, they're older. The 2 little ones are middle aged lap dogs. They just want to lay on the couch with occasional bouts of playfulness. The husky mix is a senior citizen. She limps if she walks too long.

Secondly, we haven't been in this house long. I've always been in apartments and they've always been walked 3x a day and they never wanted to stay out long. I do pet sitting at my house and have to go out in the yard to play with the dogs I'm taking care of, but my 3 old pups always do their thing and go inside, or sit at the back door and wait.

Like I said, you're entitled to your opinion, but I'm entitled to feel as though I know the dogs I live with better than you do.

[Manzana]

I apologize Snowflake. I must have deleted the part of my post about feeling bad when I go to the grocery story and purchase catfood. I feel bad not only because I am buying meat, but I am supporting the meat industry. I was cutting and pasting when I wrote that post (#834), and I apparently screwed up and lost that part of my post.

btw, you dont need to buy cat food. Plenty of vegans ask for left over meat from restaurants and/or supermarkets to feed their carnivorous cats, this way they do not need to feed their carnivorous companions meat that supports the meat industry.

Other vegans use road kill to feed their companion cats. You choose to buy meat because you want an easy way that is convenient for YOU.

[RubyDuby]

I already said that having a cat or dog comprises a vegan's belief in not supporting the meat industry. You must not have read my entire post. My cats go out at will, but not into a gated yard. By the way, after these 2 cats pass away, I am going to live up to my belief that vegans should not have companion animals. I had already been companion animal free for about 6 months, and me and my husband felt so good about it. But then this pregnant cat showed up. Her and her son are having a ball, I must say.

Even though I have 2 cats, I also wrote that I voted "no" to the question that asked if vegans should have companion animals.

Companion animals are a tricky subject. I don't believe having or not having rescued animals makes a person more or less vegan. One could argue that letting cats out to kill wildlife is unvegan. You can argue that letting animals die in shelters or on the streets is unvegan. You could argue that feeding cats vegan food is unvegan. You could argue feeding cats non-vegan food is unvegan. You could argue keeping cats inside is unvegan. Everybody is right and everybody is wrong depending on the angle. It's not really fair to look down at your nose at people who have an equally "vegan" perspective.

[Manzana]

^
+1

[RubyDuby]

By the way, I think it is great that you take your dogs to the park. Do you take them to the park year round? Do you have winter where you live? Do you take them to the park in the winter too? By the way, I do not think that walking a dog is a tiny detail to a dog's life. I watch dogs that are being walked on a leash and they are very happy, especially when they see another dog and the 2 guardians let the 2 dogs meet each other.

I haven't taken them this winter, but I have in the past. I honestly don't take them very often as I work 12 hour days and when I'm not at work usually have other people's dogs at my house.

For the record, both my cats were strays and all 3 of my dogs were shelter dogs. The husky would have most definitely been put down as most ppl don't go looking for senior citizens at the shelter. I adore all of them and they are all very happy.

Have you ever lived with a dog? Your opinions are so strong on something it doesn't seem like you have any experience with...

I hope to be done justifying myself now.

[Holly78]

With respect, VeganLu, you do not have a dog so maybe you shouldn't assume to know what does and doesn't consist of major and minor details in their lives? Dogs are individuals too and not all dogs like being walked on a lead, or meeting other dogs, or going to the park in all weathers. My parents' 10 year old beagle wouldn't go outside if it was raining - seriously!

There are plenty of people out there who are not looking after their dogs but maybe you shouldn't necessarily assume this is the case? I work full time. Maybe my neighbours think my dog is left home alone all day. Also, I rarely walk her in the evenings. Maybe my neighbours think she never gets any exercise. In fact, my dog goes to a doggy day care three weekdays and to a dog sitter/walker the other two weekdays - so she gets to run around off lead with human and dog company almost all day long, playing on agility equipment, chasing balls and having a great time. She is tired out by the evening!

Maybe things aren't always what they seem to be therefore...

[leedsveg]

Hi all on VF

I don't have a companion animal and I don't have any regrets either. I wouldn't want to suffer abuse from the Vegan Forum Inquisition.

lv (whose best friend 55 years ago was a dog named Tony)