"Pets" - Which of these statements do you agree with?

[Dylan Mulenburg]

I am fine with cats/dogs, however people shouldn't consider themselves "owners" rather consider the cats/dogs family members. There are 6 cats in my family. As long as they are happy and safe and healthy it's fine with me. And of course, taking care of injured/sick/orphaned animals is great. However, keeping caged birds, fish, lizards, etc. is wrong. (unless in a special case, i.e. they can't survive on their own) As far as letting cats/dogs outside, I don't know. They kill other animals, and it's dangerous for them, yet they shouldn't be confined inside. I suppose ideally, have a fenced in yard and take them on walks. Or better yet learn how to convey the message to them to not kill animals, to stay off roads, etc. :P

-Dylan

[Dylan Mulenburg]

Is it our responsibility to continue to breed the glow-in-the-dark breeds we've recently manufactured in labs or they exempt for some reason and don't deserve our protection and if so please explain why?
Sorry to hit you with such a hard question that I myself can't answer, especially since you are a newcomer, but it is a reality that now that they are here do we have an obligation to continue them?

My thoughts: Don't breed them, and let them go if they can survive, otherwise take really good care of them, don't force them to breed, just let them do what they want, keep them in really big aquariums. That's my thougts. Good, and tough question though!

[Linxie]

I feel guilty every single day about my birds. I got them with the best of intentions as both of them came from horrible living conditions and I thought that at the very least I could take them on and give them the best possible life. But everyday I feel bad when I have to leave them in their cages When I am at home they are out exploring and stretching their wings but I am scared to leave them out of the cages when I am not home in case they hurt themselves and I am not there to help them.

I have tried to think of anything I could do to improve their lives but obviously setting them free is not an option as they would not suvive a day. I considered an aviary but one of them could definitely not cope with that due to previous neglect/abuse. So I just carry on caring for them as best I can but feel so bad about the life they were born in to.

Another dilema I have is with my two goldfish. I have had them for many years and like other here do not want any more after this. BUT the eldest one does not have long to life. I don't want to buy another one, but then is it cruel to leave one alone? As far as I know there are no rescue fish organistions so i have the unenviable choice of deciding whether to buy a companion fish or to leave the remaining one on his own.

I wish the breeding and sale of animals could be made illegal.

[harpy]

I agree with your final thought, Linxie, but I don't think you should feel guilty as you're doing the best you can for the animals. It's good the birds can fly around when you're there and presumably they would be resting some of the time anyway?

Re the goldfish, we had a couple when I was little that outgrew their (large) tank and we were able to give them to the local Botanic Gardens, which had a big pond with other fish in it. They kept ours in quarantine for a few weeks before putting them in the pond. I was able to spot one of them later in the pond and he looked quite happy as far as I could judge Maybe you could investigate something like that?

[Linxie]

Thats a good suggetion Harpy thanks. I will look into whether I can rehome the fish when his companion dies. But if not I don't think I could leave him alone. He already looks depressed since his companion became ill and just sits with him on the bottom of the tank

[harpy]

Yes, they like to be in a shoal, don't they - even if it's only a shoal of two. What's up with the old one, just old age?

[Linxie]

He is 5 which is a good age but he has had health problems all this year. He has battled on for over 6 months but I think he now has dropsy which I don't think is curable. I have shed lots of tears over him lately. People think I am mad but he has been my fishie friend for 5 years!

[JC]

i think the pond idea is really good! i've done it before when my goldfish got too big for their tank, we set up a new pond for them in the garden. but that was quite small and they got bigger, so we gave them to the next door neighbours who have quite a big pond. we can see it from our window and everything! plus, if you buy a companion for your fish, you're only going to have the same problem later on when one of them dies. and fish don't always get on. one of my fish bullies another, and i feel really bad because it's not fair that the poor fish can't get away from him

[Dylan Mulenburg]

Linxie--You could also try to find someone else who has fish, maybe in an outdoor pond. We had some goldfish in an outdoor pond (I feel bad about it now, even though they were in a pond) and we ended up giving them to some friends who have a much bigger pond and lots of fish. Maybe that would work? And as for the birds--you are doing the right thing! I know you are doing what is in their best interest!

-Dylan

[songlife]

my quaker parrot (who moved to a very nice family who loves him very much, after I explained to him how I am embarking on a life of a travelling musician and it wouldn't be fair to him to put him through the stress of travelling all the time as much as it kills me to let him go) always followed me around everywhere, I was his mother. I raised him since he was a baby after taking him from the petcetera I worked at because they were treating him badly, never taking him out, clipped his wings, and basically were going to ruin his developing brain. Birds are highly sensitive creatures, a lot like human babies, and just imagine what would happen to a human baby's brain if you kept it in a cage and denied it the emotional and mental support it needs while growing! So, I let his wings grow out so he could fly around freely. To this day he prefers running and climbing than he does flying, and I wonder if it's due to the fact that the bastards clipped his wings in the first place... but he can fly. I remember when he was still a baby and flew onto the roof of my old house to explore or whatever, and then wandered back and forth calling out to me once he realised I was nowhere in sight. He followed the sound of my voice until he climbed all the way down to me again. I could take him anywhere, he wouldn't fly away because since he's out of the cage all the time anyways and we have a deep bond that's quite beyond "ownership". He would follow me everywhere. The bird was so in love with me that often I couldn't get anything done because he'd be nagging me for attention all the time. I'm really happy I found a nice home for him *sniff* with other animals to hang out with, and I still make sure he's doing well and happy but it breaks my heart because he still goes nuts when I visit.

I honestly think he has a much easier, happier, and full life than if he lived in the wild or was one of the quaker parrots that now live on the streets in NYC, not to mention safer.

So I don't know... if you have a flighted bird (you don't clip it's wings, you respect it's natural right to fly), that gets lots of attention and is actually a part of your family and not just some abused ornament, is it really wrong to keep one? Even if it actually wants to live with you and identifies with you as it's parent or roommate?

edit: though I felt really guilty every time I put him back in the cage. I wish I hadn't had stupid roommates when I first moved out and I could have just given him the run of the house, even when I wasn't home. As long as I made my house bird-safe (like child-safe, lol). If (when) I adopt a parrot in need of a care-giver in the future, It'll be when I have a heated travelling home as well as a base home for when I'm not travelling, and the bird won't even have a cage, it'll have the run of the place if I'm gone and I can't take it with me. Of course I'll teach him well and he'll know where to go to the bathroom and other stuff that he'll need to know.

I really cry for most domesticated birds though, especially budgies, because people just don't realise how intensely sensitive and intellectual they are, and they're treated just like ornaments. Birds need love and attention and exercise space just like humans, you can't just stick it in a cage or their minds will turn to mush and they develop severe mental illnesses.

[ellaminnowpea]

I have three cats, my family's rescued four cats in total. Currently, three of them are alive and have a decent life. Had they not been taken into our home, they would have been euthanized. We had them all spayed and neutered.

I love my cats more than anything and will always give them the best life I can... though, they dont live with me so I dont have much control over that. They live with my parents. I believe tha the animal/ human connection is really great and can be important. However, I dont think I'll have pets/ companion animals in the future. Besides being very allergic, I just refuse to support the "industry".

I think it's okay to "own" rescued animals as long as you can provide a fulfilling life for them. But I dont see the need to "own" animals from breeders/ puppy mills/ petstores. I really want to save the animals in these stores but I just couldn't support the companies that abuse animals. I hope to see an end to animal sales in stores.

I think anyone that wants to own a pet should adopt it from a rescue agency or shelter. There's so many amazing animals that need homes. Theres no need to breed animals or buy them from petstores (which are often from puppy mills). It is just too depressing and upsetting to see how badly pets are treated.

[songlife]

I am fine with cats/dogs, however people shouldn't consider themselves "owners" rather consider the cats/dogs family members. There are 6 cats in my family. As long as they are happy and safe and healthy it's fine with me. And of course, taking care of injured/sick/orphaned animals is great. However, keeping caged birds, fish, lizards, etc. is wrong. (unless in a special case, i.e. they can't survive on their own) As far as letting cats/dogs outside, I don't know. They kill other animals, and it's dangerous for them, yet they shouldn't be confined inside. I suppose ideally, have a fenced in yard and take them on walks. Or better yet learn how to convey the message to them to not kill animals, to stay off roads, etc. :P

-Dylan

birds don't necessarily have to be caged, not even budgies. people don't realise how highly intelligent they are. Moreso than dogs and cats, I'd argue. even though they're smaller, there's a lot of informtion that they can pack into their brains. They can sleep on perches and stuff just like cats and dogs can have beds. They don't need to be locked up, if you raise them from the time they're a baby correctly, they're able to develop like that and not need to be kept caged. It's rare that people know these things when they go out to buy a bird though. It's the whole stigma that birds must be caged. you could just raise it to not need a cage.

[songlife]

I think it's okay to "own" rescued animals as long as you can provide a fulfilling life for them. But I dont see the need to "own" animals from breeders/ puppy mills/ petstores. I really want to save the animals in these stores but I just couldn't support the companies that abuse animals. I hope to see an end to animal sales in stores.

I agree.
I also think it's cool to get baby animals if it's from someone who's animal had kids, like if you know someone who has parrots and they had babies. That's not factory breeding at all.
I think there should be very strict laws and commercially breeding animals should be banned. If money is taken out of the equation, it would solve a lot of problems when it comes to "pets".

[RubyDuby]

hi songbird.
I honestly know very little about birds, but I don't think most people who want a bird would spend as much time caring for theirs as much as you did. I tend to feel anti-puppy/kitten/baby animal because that seems pro-breeding, and encourages others (who will not have the same views towards animals) to go out and buy a baby. Saying that you should raise your bird in a certain way from a baby on seems to go against the idea of rescue. Also, saying I honestly think he has a much easier, happier, and full life than if he lived in the wild seems odd to me. Wouldn't it be better to let birds be birds, instead of justifying that they can be dependent on people and act in a more human fashion than if they were left alone? After all, these are actual animals in the wild, not something humans have morphed from nature like the domesticated dogs and cats we have now.
Just my thoughts...

[Manzana]

Hi songbird,

I actually agree with RubyDuby... I think it is great that you made the best of a bad situation ( a bird taken out of its natural environment/climate/family etc) and that you looked after it and gave it that much attention/protection/nurture etc... however, the ideal and appropriate situation is to leave animals to live their lives their natural way and not to take them out of their natural environment (for profit or for any other purpose like company)...

people change and so do their circumstances. Now that you are travelling for example, you had to give your companion parrot to another family...

It is not fair for animals to be our dependents... you might be a very caring person (probably 95% or more of people would not have taken as good care of that animal) but you still have not been able to look after it till the end of its life... so just imagine in what kind of situation most "pets" end up...

In my opinion, birds need to live in the "bird world" where they can take care of themselves without needing us. I would not be happy if my whole existence depended on others to survive, I am not a child and neither is that parrot or any other companion animal.
This leads me to the other point, I do not see how it is right to keep animals born in captivity either... would it be ok to have a baby in captivity and then preventing it from having a full life in its natural environment? The clear answer is no.... parrots are not meant to live in the city or with people and it is their right for the mere fact of their existance to be free and live a full life in their natural environment.

[Manzana]

I agree.
I also think it's cool to get baby animals if it's from someone who's animal had kids, like if you know someone who has parrots and they had babies. That's not factory breeding at all.

I don't think that is cool.

I think it is imposing our wishes and our will on other beings. The first natural conclusion is that for every "baby" animal that is born, there is one in a shelter that loses a home. The second, is that many people are able to use sentient beings as accessories or means to an end (like companionship)...

I think it is tragic that people are allowed to do this.

[scotch&dry]

my quaker parrot (who moved to a very nice family who loves him very much, after I explained to him how I am embarking on a life of a travelling musician and it wouldn't be fair to him to put him through the stress of travelling all the time as much as it kills me to let him go) always followed me around everywhere, I was his mother. I raised him since he was a baby after taking him from the petcetera I worked at because they were treating him badly, never taking him out, clipped his wings, and basically were going to ruin his developing brain. Birds are highly sensitive creatures, a lot like human babies, and just imagine what would happen to a human baby's brain if you kept it in a cage and denied it the emotional and mental support it needs while growing! So, I let his wings grow out so he could fly around freely. To this day he prefers running and climbing than he does flying, and I wonder if it's due to the fact that the bastards clipped his wings in the first place... but he can fly. I remember when he was still a baby and flew onto the roof of my old house to explore or whatever, and then wandered back and forth calling out to me once he realised I was nowhere in sight. He followed the sound of my voice until he climbed all the way down to me again. I could take him anywhere, he wouldn't fly away because since he's out of the cage all the time anyways and we have a deep bond that's quite beyond "ownership". He would follow me everywhere. The bird was so in love with me that often I couldn't get anything done because he'd be nagging me for attention all the time. I'm really happy I found a nice home for him *sniff* with other animals to hang out with, and I still make sure he's doing well and happy but it breaks my heart because he still goes nuts when I visit.

I honestly think he has a much easier, happier, and full life than if he lived in the wild or was one of the quaker parrots that now live on the streets in NYC, not to mention safer.

So I don't know... if you have a flighted bird (you don't clip it's wings, you respect it's natural right to fly), that gets lots of attention and is actually a part of your family and not just some abused ornament, is it really wrong to keep one? Even if it actually wants to live with you and identifies with you as it's parent or roommate?

edit: though I felt really guilty every time I put him back in the cage. I wish I hadn't had stupid roommates when I first moved out and I could have just given him the run of the house, even when I wasn't home. As long as I made my house bird-safe (like child-safe, lol). If (when) I adopt a parrot in need of a care-giver in the future, It'll be when I have a heated travelling home as well as a base home for when I'm not travelling, and the bird won't even have a cage, it'll have the run of the place if I'm gone and I can't take it with me. Of course I'll teach him well and he'll know where to go to the bathroom and other stuff that he'll need to know.

I really cry for most domesticated birds though, especially budgies, because people just don't realise how intensely sensitive and intellectual they are, and they're treated just like ornaments. Birds need love and attention and exercise space just like humans, you can't just stick it in a cage or their minds will turn to mush and they develop severe mental illnesses.

Hi =) I admire your compassion for your parrot. I have a cockatiel, and I know you don't like this but he has his wings slightly clipped. Now I understand that clipping their wings is stopping them from doing something they naturally do, something they enjoy, but I honestly think it's for the best ... in my case, anyway. Of course there are a lot of people I think should never "own" a bird. What you said about people not realising how sensative birds are - I agree. I've learnt so much from Billy, he's my absolute best friend and I can't imagine my life without him; I miss him when I'm at school or even grocery shopping.

I said "slightly" clipped - Billy has the ability to fly, say, from one side of a room to the other. He can fly between people, between play gyms (we keep him busy) or from perch to perch in his "room" (I don't like the word cage). This is perfect for inside our small house. He has the ability to be where he wants, he loves his toys and we keep him safe. I also take him outside, and here he can move around our yard, but he doesn't have the ability to make it to the roof or over the fence. I know that it's maybe not ideal, but I'd honestly rather restrict his flying than risk him getting lost - he wouldn't last a day alone.

Now the hardest part of my story - Billy was bred for me. I took him from an aviary and reared him myself. This was before I became vegan. I can't be sorry for it. I love Billy too much to ever regret wanting him. I love him with all my heart. So do I think it's a wrong thing to do? Yes. But like I said, I'll never regret doing it. Will I do it again? No. I'll always have birds, I'm sure of it, but recued birds, victimised birds.

Woo. That was a lot to get off my chest. I'm really nervous about the replies ...

[Linxie]

Now the hardest part of my story - Billy was bred for me. I took him from an aviary and reared him myself. This was before I became vegan. I can't be sorry for it. I love Billy too much to ever regret wanting him. I love him with all my heart. So do I think it's a wrong thing to do? Yes. But like I said, I'll never regret doing it. Will I do it again? No. I'll always have birds, I'm sure of it, but recued birds, victimised birds.

Woo. That was a lot to get off my chest. I'm really nervous about the replies ...

Don't be nervous, I think what you have said is fine. You obviously love your cockatiel very much and take great care of him. You have also said in the future you will only take on rescue birds. I don't think there is anything wrong with that.

I have cockatiels too I actually got one from a pet shop but the circumstances were slightly unusual. The shop was closing down, I am not actually sure how the RSPCA hadn't already closed it down. All they had in the shop were fish (in tanks so green you couldn't see in) and then Buddy. He was in an empty cage with only one perch. No toys. It was filthy and looked like it hadn't been cleaned for a year. He was in a room out back that was dark and depressing. I assumed from the state of him that he belonged to the shop owners as they couldn't offer any animal for sale in that state!? I talked to him for a while (I only went in for fish food) and every time I tried to walk away he started crying out. So I asked the owners if he was theirs and they said no, they wanted "rid of him" because they were closing. Well that was enough for me. I could imagine just how they would get "rid of him". I decided I could not leave him behind. So I gave the man some money to cover the cage and off we went.

Even thought I hated giving them money, I still maintain I did the right thing. I hope I don't sound big headed when I say that I am sure that no one could give my birds a better home. They have big, clean cages, toys to occupy their minds, a good, varied diet and when I am home, they are out and about.

Buddy obviously had a bad start and is very nervous of people and very quiet. But he is happy in his own way. I also have another cockatiel called Pip who is the opposite, very boisterous and outgoing. He loves people, especially me. He is actually jealous of my boyfriend and bites him at every opportunity if he gets too close to me.

I take my responsibility to them very seriously. I have even turned down holidays because I did not have someone I completely trusted to look after them.

So I wish life could have been different for both of them but as it is not, we are making the best of a bad situation

[songlife]

Now the hardest part of my story - Billy was bred for me. I took him from an aviary and reared him myself. This was before I became vegan. I can't be sorry for it. I love Billy too much to ever regret wanting him. I love him with all my heart. So do I think it's a wrong thing to do? Yes. But like I said, I'll never regret doing it. Will I do it again? No. I'll always have birds, I'm sure of it, but recued birds, victimised birds.

Woo. That was a lot to get off my chest. I'm really nervous about the replies ...

yeah that's how I feel too. I got him before becoming vegan but I still only got him because I saw him being neglected and imprisoned and that if I didn't take him, he was going to be very damaged for life, birds are like that, they develop early and they're really impressionable at a young age. I couldn't deal with that, especially since he was obviously calling out to me for help.

I never even intended to get a little quaker (as cute and funny as they are), I always intended to adopt a larger parrot that would be able to come travelling, one who's previous owner had died, or some other rescue situation. But Spike (the quaker) was the one who needed to be rescued at the time, so that's what happened... and he turned out to be the best buddy ever Ever since then I've neen telling everyone who will listen to at least not shop at Petcetera at least Petsmart and Petland treat their animals better.

The thing about birds is that they bond so closely to their human companions, as much as they do to other birds. If you truly raise it as your family, it's your family. You can have a flighted bird who you can teach to watch out for predators when you're outside together, and can even find its own food. I saw these people who had a small flock of macaws and they took them out to the cliffs/mountains every day or so and the birds would fly high in the sky, completely free, and also able to get their own food. But the humans are not their captors or their owners, they're family, and birds are very family oriented. I think that's an example of a free bird, who willingly hangs out with their human family. My bird was certainly capable of finding his own food and flying away if he'd wanted to. I think it's important to point out that some species of parrots, like macaws, are endangered and without human help they might disappear. Especially hyacinth macaws. I would like to help them in the future somehow, maybe I can rescue some of them who have had their habitat destroyed by logging/farming.

I feel bad about leaving Spike, but he bonds to other people really easily too and I made sure I had a really happy home set up for him before giving him. There were several people who were willing to take him and I did my best to choose the best place for him, I chose a woman who has lots of time for him and wanted him really badly. I check on him about twice a year when i return to the west to make sure he's doing well. His new family is absolutely obsessed with him at least. And he has a few other animals in the household to socialize with too. I made sure they knew not to clip his wings, that he needs at least a few hours of attention per day, and to be out as much as possible.

sigh

[songlife]

oh!!! for anyone wanting to adopt a recue bird, please check out this lady!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IvuWjqxL5io&feature=user

this is a song she wrote called "rescue me", it makes me cry.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xDZN-Wn2DL4&feature=user

she takes birds from tragic or abusive situations and gives her life to their rescue. please check it out and maybe tell people you know if they ever want a bird (they're high maintenance though so it's got to be someone who has the energy, devotion and love to accept the bird as a true family member).

Snowball is the willing mascott for the charity now, he's using his fame to bring lots of attention to the rescue efforts.

[clueless]

I don't see anything wrong with keeping a pet as long as it isn't just that - a pet. I have a cat but I see her as my friend, not as something I own. I love her very much and could not live without her. I don't, however, completely agree with bird cages as I think this restricts a bird from being free. That being said, I used to keep caged birds (before I was vegan) but did not think it was right to let them free as they had been so used to us feeding them that I thought they probably wouldn't be able to fend for themselves and would die. We ended up letting our last one free, though. All in all, as long as we aren't hurting the animals or restricting them in any way (i.e. cages), i dont think there is anything wrong with it, especially because it is often a very nice way for humans to bond with our lovely animals

[Mr Flibble]

I don't see anything wrong with keeping a pet as long as it isn't just that - a pet. I have a cat but I see her as my friend, not as something I own.

Whilst that sounds lovely, it's facts not what people perceive that is important.

However 'free' you believe a 'pet' to be, it will unlikely be allowed to fulfill it's primary instinct of mating (which most humans wouldn't want the restriction of for themselves) or live in its natural environment.

[clueless]

Whilst that sounds lovely, it's facts not what people perceive that is important.

However 'free' you believe a 'pet' to be, it will unlikely be allowed to fulfill it's primary instinct of mating (which most humans wouldn't want the restriction of for themselves) or live in its natural environment.

Yes that's true.

But, perhaps OFTEN (not always), people would do anything for their pets and while I agree that a sense of their primary instincts are taken away from them, they do get spoilt and do get a lot of creature comforts, which IN A WAY, although it doesn't make up for what we have taken, can be a pretty great thing in itself at least.

But I totally get where you're coming from and I agree with you. I just don't think pets will ever be banned, so we have to think of the positives of owning pets... if you get my drift. That being said, we must all strive for what is right.

[Klytemnest]

Whilst that sounds lovely, it's facts not what people perceive that is important.

However 'free' you believe a 'pet' to be, it will unlikely be allowed to fulfill it's primary instinct of mating (which most humans wouldn't want the restriction of for themselves) or live in its natural environment.

You want facts? Cats are domesticated animals. Cats that do not have a human to look after them, live short, miserable lives.

They also die miserable deaths. My cat Paolo got a horrendous oral cancer (fibrosarcoma). Lucky for him we had him put to sleep before the cancer made him truly miserable. If he had been in the wild he would have died either of the cancer - which would have been a slow agony as the cancer moved past his hard palate, into his nose, eyes and brain - or would have been killed by a predator.

He was my son. I did everything I could to make his life happy. He had plenty of love, plenty of food, kitty grass, toys. I think he had a good life. Much better than what he would have endured in his "natural environment." "Natural" is not always better.

So, I am sorry to say, Mr Flibble, this argument does not fly with me. The only valid argument that remains unresolbed in my mind on this issue of owning pets is the issue of pet food. It supports the meat industry. Cats can't really be vegan. So I just don't know what to do about that. Any ideas?

[philfox]

I can't remember if I've posted on this thread, but I remember, some time ago voting on this option:
I'm all for keeping rescued animals or animals that otherwise need me, but against keeping other 'pets'
I 'have' 5 companion rats. I love them very much. I've had another 3 die since October, one of whom was put to sleep. I insisted he die in my hands and I stayed with him until the end, but it hurt, and not a day has gone by where I haven't regretted it, or at least questioned it. And not a day goes by I don't miss any of the ones I've lost, or any of my previous companion animals.

However, there is not a day that goes by where I do not question whether what I do with my rats is right or not. I constantly research nutrition, look to make feeding times interesting. I am constantly on the look out for interesting objects for their cages and free range area. I try and free range as often as possible and I have them in the biggest cages I have room for at present.

Yet, something still does not sit right with me. What happens when I am out, and they are all alert and 'wakey' (yes we have daft names for their moods ) they cannot come out. What happens when I'm asleep and they hurt themselves? What if I came down to one swinging by their ankles from a hammock hook? What if the diet I feed them isn't god for them? What if they only sleep in the objects I provide because that's all there is, and not what they would choose? These and countless other questions go through my mind. Part of me feels like rehoming every day to someone who can provide better. Does it make me selfish that I don't rehome? Probably, but I guess it's my responsibility to take care of them now I have them.

I'd rather not there be any 'pets' out there. I'd rather not have to read about starving dogs, visit friends with lone rabbits and see animal 'collectors' add 'just one more' animal to their home. But they aren't going to go away, and I'd like to be able to offer a home to animals in need, even if at the moment I can only extend that to rats, as they are the only animal I can really cater for at present (they are demanding little critters ). At least wild rats have an affinity with people and I like to think that domestic rats share that some what, and they can fit into our lives quite well. But that's probably me salving my guilt complex.

My point to my comment? That I am somewhat trapped between loving the companionship of my fuzzies, and the guilt and knowledge that keeping an animal for my purposes is wrong. And I cannot justify that beyond how an omnivore justifies eating meat. 'Because I enjoy it'.

[Mr Flibble]

So, I am sorry to say, Mr Flibble, this argument does not fly with me.

I've explained at some length earlier in this thread my thoughts on the matter, if you want to know why I still disagree with you.

[Mahk]

You want facts? Cats are domesticated animals.

Do you support the continued use of domesticated animals in perpetuity? or just cats? or just "pet" animals? who decides if a goat is a pet animal or not? what if the pet goat has milk can the owner take some? how about pet cows? Many of us would like to see the domestication of all animals eventually phased out. [not all of us]

Cats that do not have a human to look after them, live short, miserable lives.

"Miserable" you say? [Maybe on the streets of LA, but that's not where cats would live if "liberated"] How many cats were polled and did the pollster speak fluent "cat" or are there cats now that speak English? Assuming they'd be "miserable" in the real world is a bit of an assumption since we can't ask them. If you were asked when you hit puberty by your parents, "Would you like to be de-sexed so that you can no longer have/desire sex, and live under house arrest, part of most days in solitary confinement when no humans are home but have the luxury of all your food and medical attention supplied to you free of charge until you die vs. live a life of freedom, including sexual freedom, go hunting and fishing everyday (2 established hobbies we know you just love), maybe start a family, be on vacation 24/7/365 but potentially fall prey to larger predators/starve etc and die a natural but possibly slow death just like all the other 100 gazillion other natural, free, wild animals on the planet, which would you choose?

Conversely maybe we should start desexing our teenagers and keeping them under house arrest for their own good/safety and increase their life span?

Sorry about Paolo.

The only valid argument that remains unresolbed in my mind on this issue of owning pets is the issue of pet food. It supports the meat industry. Cats can't really be vegan. So I just don't know what to do about that. Any ideas?

Simple. If it bothers you so much don't own obligate carnivores as pets; get a rescued rabbit, say, instead, a vegan (well, herbivore I mean).

Rami, there are 37 species of wild cats living in nature, many of which look and act nearly identical to our cats, and they don't "need us to take care of them":

[Also dogs] True, the streets of LA are not their proper habitat but some of us like me, Sniv, ALexiconofLove, Korn and others have bantered about the possible concepts of someday re-wilding them in natural environments, sanctuaries, and the concept of "grandfathering". If you were curious at all you could do a search of this thread on those concepts to learn more.

Horselesspaul's signature line says it all:"..but what would they do with all the cows?.." Classic.

[clueless]

The only valid argument that remains unresolbed in my mind on this issue of owning pets is the issue of pet food. It supports the meat industry. Cats can't really be vegan. So I just don't know what to do about that. Any ideas?

I personally believe that cats, like wild dogs and other animals, are carniverous. They are naturally supposed to eat meat. One of the reasons I am a vegan is because I believe that humans are not MEANT to eat meat. We are herbiverous animals. Have a look at your nails, your teeth, could you catch a wild animal?? A cat has sharp teeth and sharp nails plus short intestines for digesting meat. I don't think it is right to feed a cat on a vegan diet. If animals in the wild did not eat each other we would not survive - it's all one big food chain. I do agree with you however that pet food supports the meat industry, but we're obviously not going to go out and catch animals for them...

[RubyDuby]

its a tough situation. who's speaking for the animals we're feeding our animal friends?

mahk- that cat pic looks a lot like one of my cat roomates... in fact looks just like the one of 4 that actually wants to go outside.. badly. i've said this before, but i hope i dont adopt another cat after mine have passed. i just can't justify it with the dangers of them being outside and the danger to the birds, mice, snakes etc that these not-natural-to-this-area domesticated cats will kill if i let them go outside.

What if they only sleep in the objects I provide because that's all there is, and not what they would choose? These and countless other questions go through my mind. Part of me feels like rehoming every day to someone who can provide better. Does it make me selfish that I don't rehome?

i do believe that animals get depressed if they are not comfortable. i see it with dogs at work (boarding kennel) and i see my efforts change their mood. if ur animals friends are not depressed (and i hope u would know being that ur in tuned to ur loved ones as a sensible sounding vegan) i wouldnt worry about these things.

the only thing i cannot reconcile is their diet.

my dogs are vegan.

my cats are not.

[philfox]

i do believe that animals get depressed if they are not comfortable. i see it with dogs at work (boarding kennel) and i see my efforts change their mood. if ur animals friends are not depressed (and i hope u would know being that ur in tuned to ur loved ones as a sensible sounding vegan) i wouldnt worry about these things

I don't *think* they are depressed, they are pretty active and chose to go back 'home' to their cage to sleep (apart from my eldest boy who likes to sleep behind the sofa). Their dried mix is vegan, although they aren't vegan at the moment as my dad spoils them with meaty stuff when he comes round. but I certainly cannot reconcile, logically or ethically loving one animal (or a whole group of them ) enough to allow millions of others to die in the course of my 'pet's' lifetime.

And then there is the pet trade. Not just the pet food, but the puppy mills, back yard breeders, rodent farms, the tiny cages you can buy in pet shops, inappropriate care sheets/books. Also buying food from pet shops, even ones that don't sell animals, they still sell live food for snakes/reptiles, frozen mice and rats, and really bad advice. Putting money in people's pockets who make a living from cruelty, inappropriate care etc isn't something I want to do. Fortunately rats are easy enough to care for without putting money in a pet store's pocket, and you can be discerning about where you shop online too.

However, I don't recommend releasing all the domestic animals either, and keeping of pets, unfortunately won't just stop because a few vegans say 'is bad' same with the meat trade. Sorry for the ramble. I'm feeling miserable in the world again.

[RubyDuby]

i hear ya. its a crap situation.

sorry, i just re-read my post. i meant i cant reconcile the diet i feed my cats.

[Mahk]

Just to ramble a bit more on the topic I don't think we have the right to dictate an artificial diet on another species even if there was scientifically proven safe vegan cat food. How would we like it if powerful space aliens landed and said to us "You may no longer eat soy because we don't want you to, we worship soybeans and eating them is not allowed. Here eat this synthetic stuff we brought you instead. Don't worry it's safe and vegan."

Dogs maybe, since they are omnivores by nature, but cats which are obligate carnivores I'm [currently] thinking it wouldn't be ethically cool.

More ramblings:

Does a parent get to dictate what their child eats?
Does a roommate get to dictate what their roommate eats?
Does a prison get to dictate what a prisoner eats?
Does a restaurant get to dictate what a patron eats?
Does an airline get to dictate what a passenger eats?
Does a species get to dictate what another species eats?

Hmm...complex issue, I'm not really sure what to think. What do you all think?

[RubyDuby]

Just to ramble a bit more on the topic I don't think we have the right to dictate an artificial diet on another species even if there was scientifically proven safe vegan cat food. How would we like it if powerful space aliens landed and said to us "You may no longer eat soy because we don't want you to, we worship soybeans and eating them is not allowed. Here eat this synthetic stuff we brought you instead. Don't worry it's safe and vegan."

I'm not sure it is right to feed cats a vegan diet if it definitely isn't good for them, which is why I don't think I'd be adopting more cats.

However, your above scenario doesn't fit as a comparison at all.

will you please address the animals that we are feeding to these animals?

Do what their wants/needs matter less than the rescued animal? Somebody is dictating what they eat, how/where they live, even artificially inseminating them, all to feed this new species humans created.

Are the 'food' animals less important? why??

Does a parent get to dictate what their child eats?

yes, to an extent.

Does a roommate get to dictate what their roommate eats?

of course not, unless the roommate cannot feed themselves.

Does a prison get to dictate what a prisoner eats?

yes.

Does a restaurant get to dictate what a patron eats?

to an extant yes.

Does an airline get to dictate what a passenger eats?

no???

Does a species get to dictate what another species eats?

if that species is dependant on another species, yes.

[Mahk]

I'm not sure it is right to feed cats a vegan diet if it definitely isn't good for them, which is why I don't think I'd be adopting more cats.

However, your above scenario doesn't fit as a comparison at all.

Yeah, you're right. It was off the top of my head and flawed in several ways.
How about this. Say one's human roommate, who is also your best friend, falls ill and can't leave the house. They need you to go buy them food or they'll die but they hate vegan food and demand meat. Should we buy them what they want or force them to eat vegan food? Two conflicting rights I'd say.

I think that's a little better but not purrrrrrrrrrrrrfect.

will you please address the animals that we are feeding to these animals?

Do what their wants/needs matter less than the rescued animal? Somebody is dictating what they eat, how/where they live, even artificially inseminating them, all to feed this new species humans created.

Are the 'food' animals less important? why??

All good points. A real dilemma. I have no good answers. But I have one for you. Do wild cats in nature (like lions) have a right to be carnivores? I think they do. Nature needs carnivores otherwise mother nature wouldn't have put them here. I think wild cats and sharks have a right to be and do what they do. Yes it is tragic when an animal has to die to feed another but obligate carnivores don't have any other options except suicide.

I think this is a weird situation us as a society has gotten into but ya know what would be even trickier to reconcile? What if one of us was say a snake owner. From my understanding they only eat live prey. The owner would have to bring home live, I guess mice(?), and the death would actually happen in our own homes. Yikes! But then again snakes have rights too.

I'm just rambling today. No one can hold me to anything I've said.

[RubyDuby]

I personally dont question wild carnivores.
of course they have the 'right' to kill for food.

yeah, def no pet snakes for me.

I'm just rambling today. No one can hold me to anything I've said.

I think I might make that my signature.

[philfox]

I'm gonna join Mahk with the rambling.

Where I don't think it is right to feed a cat on a vegan diet because of the health problems and the fact that cats *need* meat; I think if something out there could sustain a cat / obligate carnivore and could sustain it enough to live out its days very healthy and happy as long as it would on a meat diet, with no health problems, ie kidney, protein and taurine issues, I see no reason why this couldn't be used.

Pets are a difficult issue for vegans. We cannot wash our hands of the animals that we as humans have domesticated/ enslaved/ bred (delete as appropriate ) we cannot release them, we could put them all to sleep, or we could work towards taking care of rescue animals and educating people not to breed any more. All of us have to decide where we stand within our own ethical boundaries regarding companion animals. I fully respect vegans who do not *need* companion animals. But I fully support and empathise with those who do and want to do their best by their companion and the animals it needs to eat. We can say 'simple just have a pet rabbit' but that doesn't help the thousands of cats needing homes up and down the country. I do think as vegans we are more intune with an animals needs and more likely to care for our furry/feathered/scaled friends better?

All the decisions we make regarding our companion animals, where they live, when they can come out (cage or house), what they sleep in (don't see many wolves in dog beds and rats in hammocks in the wild ) are all 'unnatural' and controlled. Food is just one more step. I'm not advocating feeding something harmful to our companion animals or ourselves, however, we, as humans, have removed these animals so far from their wild counterparts, we can and have to make decisions for them that they wouldn't have in the wild. A male cat gets neutered to stop it impregnating female cats thus creating unwanted litters, a dog is vaccinated against bad diseases which not only are painful and potentially fatal for it and it could pass it to other dogs and most small animals need to be kept in (large) cages to prevent them harming themselves.

We have to make those decisions because we have taken their ancestors out of the wild, altered them and bred them so much they bear little resemblance to the wild animals they once were. In the wild 'nature' and the elements (or circumstance if you will) would 'decide' when the feline with kidney failure would die, or whether the wolf pack would find meat or berries or tubers that day.

Ideally everyone who had companion animals would make their own, best decisions for them. But they don't and that's why I'm so messed up with the whole companion animal idea. I guess as humans we just haven't learnt to play nice, with each other, let alone other species.

[veganlinda]

My cat is mostly on a vegan diet - at the mo she is choosing vegan biscuits over fish again. She also chooses to live with me as she can come and go as she chooses.

Difficult the argument about neutering though. I have seen enough pictures of dogs starving on the streets to think that neutering has to be an option.

BTW I don't also think birth control is something humans should do more of. Less peeps, less pets, less petfood, more land for us to share, greater chance of a balanced ecosystem.

[Nothsa]

This one is interesting. I've not really thought about it before.
I think there's nothing wrong in keeping a pet, in the sense of its happiness and health, and I think that they (in most cases, anyway) get back just has much, if not more, than the owner does.

With regards to training them, I don't think this is terrible either - as that's what they would do if in the wild.. the leader of the pack would keep those lower on the hierarchy in order, and as we're paying to feed them, keep them warm, healthy etc then we have the right to do so.

[Manzana]

Nothsa,

I think your assessment is quite simplistic and invite you to read the whole thread.

How about all the wild life that dies for people wanting to keep a cat? Do you see nothing wrong with that?
Or how about giving money to the meat industry by feeding your dog/cat bits of killed animals and hence helping the meat industry to continue to thrive?

[ElaineVigneault]

My thoughts:

puppy mills and commercial breeding of animals = evil.

I think rescuing is perfectly A-OK. Animals who need care ought to receive care, not death or life in prison. Even wild animals might fall into this category sometimes, particularly when the injury/loss of habitat/risk is human-caused.

I choose not to keep animals in cages, though I can understand why some people might. And I do keep cats indoors and dogs on leashes for their protection.

I consider the animals I care for as part of my family. They are similar to children. I consider my control over them a "necessary evil" given the current state of affairs for nonhumans.

The cats under my care are not vegetarian or vegan. The dog is. It's a compromise. I'm not perfect.

I'm absolutely OK with the extinction of animal species or breeds that cannot survive on their own in the wild. For example, breeds of dogs that need constant grooming in order to maintain mobility. However, I will not speed up that extinction by killing those animals.

"The Stockholm syndrome" is specific to kidnapping. It would apply to animals taken from the wild or from their families. It would apply to dogs purchased from pet stores or breeders. It doesn't apply to 'stray' cats who have been 'adopted by humans.' It doesn't apply to dogs rescued from dog fighting/ dog racing/ puppy mills. "Learned helplessness" might be a more appropriate description of most animals controlled by humans, even those who have been rescued.

[RationalVegan74]

We always have to interfere with everything. We can't just watch and learn. Nature and its animals are none of our business to interfere with; if we were reasonable, we could move through the world without making any significant difference at all. (This would mean not breeding like a plague, too.) I'm sorry, but owning a pet seems almost indescribably selfish to me. Even if you lengthen its life, you've just extended the length of its sentence to an unnatural, captive existence, and all the consequences that existence has for them and everything else. I think that if a person truly loves animals, they'll have the personal willpower to leave them alone!

[RubyDuby]

is it worse to take a shelter animal home to care for him/her, than for them to live the rest of their lives in a shelter?

I understand what you're saying, but it's hard to stand back and "leave them alone" knowing others are not leaving them alone.

Do you believe that these living "unnatural" animals should be killed off?

[cobweb]

i have made a personal decision not to take in any more 'pets' but i agree with RubyDuby 100% on the above.

We need to rethink the whole pet thing though and stop people buying from breeders.

[harpy]

I think I read this one wrong when I voted for it:

"Unless we make all domesticated/institutionalized animals extinct (which I don't want), someone needs to take care of them"

I don't want the ones that are around now to be killed but it might be a good thing if there weren't any more in the future. (In theory anyway - unfortunately the question is academic at the moment with shelters always full )

[RubyDuby]

shelters always full and no slow down on breeding.

I would guess theres an increase in breeding with these new "breeds" popping up everywhere.

It is so difficult to bite my tongue working with people who come in all shiny and proud of their newly purchased puppies.

[harpy]

Yes, I know a couple of people who let their cats have litters but I didn't get anywhere much arguing with them. There aren't actually many kittens on offer because most people round here have their cats neutered and spayed, so it's fairly easy to find homes for any kittens that are born, but if you go a few miles away there are loads of adult cats in shelters who could have had some of those homes. Grrr.

[BlackCats]

It is so difficult to bite my tongue working with people who come in all shiny and proud of their newly purchased puppies.

Maybe you shouldn't bite your tongue Ruby and maybe try and plant an idea in their mind. I didn't know the reasons why people shouldn't breed domesticated animals before I became vegan and most people I have spoken to don't seem to even think about the rights and wrongs of it.

(I am definitely going to rescue adult boy cats if and when we can afford to, I feel so sorry for the cats nobody wants to take home.)

[harpy]

Even quite young cats of about a year old or less get dumped - the CP lady reckoned some people just sling them out and get another kitten Great message that must give to their children, if they've got'em.

[puffin]

I agree about the new puppy thing. There is this lady down the school who keep bringing her puppy. He is lovely but i cant help thinking how much she paid for it and all the poor dogs in shelters, its all about showing off surely

[RubyDuby]

I just feel like it's too late once they've gone and bought the puppy.

I do, however, try to take every opportunity (at less offensive times) to express my love for shelter dogs and mention the fact that so many get put down while others are continuing to breed and purchase.

I'm not good at biting my tongue anyway and I feel bad that I don't go all gaga over the purchased puppies. I know the sad look on my face is bad enough without saying anything.

That reminds me of a time a co-worker asked me a question about puppy training (after he had bought one) and I responded I knew nothing about it and try not to support breeding... I felt so bad I apologized to him later. He did say he understood, but I stil feel bad about it.

Is there a nice way to approach the subject after somebody has done the deed?