"Pets" - Which of these statements do you agree with?

[LuvAllLife]

No problem cobweb, I won't last long in the vegan world if I don't know how to take a challenge

[cobweb]

No problem cobweb, I won't last long in the vegan world if I don't know how to take a challenge

Just training you up

[Blue moon]

It should be pointed out, it's not just the birds that suffer from loose cats. Domestic cats out-compete local wildlife for available prey. Cats are fed regardless of the level of prey around, and vetted when ill, to carry on killing on and on. Wild animals reduce when prey reduces, cats do not, they just carry on getting their whiskas and killing what little prey is left long after local wildlife has starved and gone.

I am heartily sick of local cats shitting all over my vegetables and killling birds and rodents in my garden. If it's too much trouble for someone to actually take responsibility for their pet, they shouldn't have one. Might sound harsh but I am bored with people carrying on as if cats are in some way more special than any other species, and should have special priveldges and rights. It is so easy to fence a garden, or keep a cat inside and take it out on a harness for playtime just like dog owners are expected to, if someone can't be bothered that to me implies they are just lazy and selfish and have no wish at all to keep their cat away from causing nuisances for others, human and not. That always smacks of lazy excuse from owners who don't want the bother of cleaning up their own cat's poo, or don't want the bother of looking after it properly - the reasons often given by people for having cats as opposed to dogs are just this lack of responsibility. It's no good saying cats have special needs - if an animal can't have it's needs met while not causing trouble around the neighbourhood, it should not be a household pet (ignoring the wider topic of any species being a pet etc)

I also disagree that it's a common UK mindset that cats should be free to roam wherever they like. I'd be interestd in any polls carried out, as I tend to find the opposite view is more prevalent.

Sorry it anyone is offended by my views, I'm not taking a swipe at anyone here just saying what I think

[kikifromscotland]

'My' cats absolutely hate being restrained- they cry and get very distressed. I wouldn't want to do that to them for a prolonged period of time to try and make them 'get used to it'. And no way they would sit happily with a harness on- we tried it once (just putting one on them) when they were kittens and they freaked out and were rolling all over the place trying to get it off. Maybe I am soft but I don't like to do anything that upsets or distresses the girls, they know the basic rules (don't go on the kitchen counter, don't lick bowls, don't scratch) and beyond that I want them to be able to have as much freedom as possible. They love going outside and having met indoor cats recently I felt it was a shame for them not to get out, a human wouldn't like to always be imprisoned and it's not fair on a cat either. With dogs you can usually take them to an open space and let them off the lead as they will come back when you call. Cats don't respond to human 'instructions' unless they feel like it. I wouldn't tie my (theoretical) child up to a post and leave them in the garden and I wouldn't do it to my cat either.

[RubyDuby]

what if your child was killing wildlife? I'm sure you wouldn't tie them out, but you wouldn't let them wonder around the neighborhood either?

[cobweb]

if my child were killing wildlife I'd have him locked away somewhere!
I don't really think you can compare a child with a cat, or a cat with a dog, different species, different needs, different expectations.

[cobweb]

I also disagree that it's a common UK mindset that cats should be free to roam wherever they like. I'd be interestd in any polls carried out, as I tend to find the opposite view is more prevalent.

I think amongst people who have cats it's definitely prevalent. I've lived in loads of different areas of Britain and spoken with many people who keep cats as part of the family, and never actually met one who even considered keeping their cats indoors permanently.

I've read and thought about what you said. I don't like the killing bit, either (mine can't can't kill as she has no teeth! lol), but I equally dislike the idea of confining a cat indoors. Fencing gardens off is a good idea, but many cats are great climbers.

I think it's unfair that you feel so many cat keepers are lazy and irresponsible, by the way! . I definitely clean up after 'my' cat as far as is humanly possible. Personally I'm sick to death of whinging whining children everywhere I go, maybe they ought to have their mouths taped up when they go out of the house? .

[RubyDuby]

if my child were killing wildlife I'd have him locked away somewhere!
I don't really think you can compare a child with a cat, or a cat with a dog, different species, different needs, different expectations.

I don't think you can compare a child with a cat either. I was responding to kiki's comparison.

I don't like having to make my cats stay inside, but I've looked at this situation from every angle that I can think of and that I've heard of and for me I feel it's the only option.

eta: they are happy cats. Spritzer occasionally expresses desire to go out, but he's mostly resigned to the fact that he's not allowed and seems pretty darned comfortable with the situation.

[cobweb]

sorry, Ruby, I see why you made the comparison now, in response...........
I suppose I'm just getting annoyed with some of the anti-cat feeling around here. I'm sure your cats are happy, like you say, each individual has to do what's right for them and their cats.

[kikifromscotland]

what if your child was killing wildlife? I'm sure you wouldn't tie them out, but you wouldn't let them wonder around the neighborhood either?

In that situation there isn't a comparator as cats have an instinct to kill small animals not present in children which cannot be supressed.

I think the answer is different for different cats but for mine being imprisoned is not an option that would allow them to be happy.

[Mymblesdaughter]

Blue Moon, I only know one person who keeps her cat indoor and that's because it's from a shelter and is very timid, so she was advised to keep it inside. It's very rare for people to keep their cats indoors in the UK. I know lots of people who own cats as I've worked at an animal charity and now volunteer at a shelter. The shelter will always try to home to someone who will let the cats outside. They have some cats that are indoor only as they have never been outside but this a small percentage. So the general view in the UK as far as animal welfare is concerned is that cats should be allowed outside.

[RubyDuby]

In that situation there isn't a comparator as cats have an instinct to kill small animals not present in children which cannot be supressed.

For the most part I agree, which is one reason I don't let my cats out.

The other main reason is that throughout my childhood all of our cats were allowed outside and not a single one lived to old age. Most "disappeared", and 1 was "relocated" by a cat-hating neighbor.

I feel like it's hard to see the other side when you're doing something one way already and it works for you. I've been on both sides and find this way works better for me and my kitties.

I think the answer is different for different cats but for mine being imprisoned is not an option that would allow them to be happy.

It may not be the ideal situation, but they get used to it and can be perfectly happy. You could still let them out in supervised sessions.

After all, letting them out doesn't allow the wildlife to be happy, some neighbors to be happy, and it doesn't allow people to be happy when they dart across the street through traffic or having to see them dead on the side of the road.

So the general view in the UK as far as animal welfare is concerned is that cats should be allowed outside.

That's because most animal welfare groups only take the welfare of pet animals into consideration.

[harpy]

I think the typical cat situation in the UK and the US really is different, it's not just attitudes that vary.

I've read that cats that hunt (not all do) often "specialise" in either birds or rodents. The cats in our road seem to specialise in mice and rats, of which there are a large number (we live next to a railway embankment). Although this is unpleasant from many points of view I feel it's generally preferable to most of the available methods of population control, and realistically people aren't going to put up with large numbers of rats and mice in their houses. The only endangered mammals round here are the hedgehogs, which coexist with the cats.

Our cats don't go on the road because they would have go round to the end of the terrace, which is further than they like to go as there is plenty to amuse them in our garden and the adjoining ones. They don't go on the railway line, which is in a cutting. I've lived in this house with cats for about 25 years and the 2 cats we've lost have died of diseases of old age. People who want to have cats here often try and choose cat-friendly places to live if they can, and this was one of the things we interrogated the chap we bought the house from about (he also had a cat).

[cobweb]

^ yes, good points, Harpy. I just don't see cats wiping out wildlife here either. I would also like to know where the figure for the 'amount' of birds killed by cats might come from?. I just can't comment on the U.S because I haven't lived there, but apart from the differences in situation, there's also a difference in attitudes, - for instance, I can't imagine cat keepers here de-clawing their cats, which I'm led to believe happens in the U.S.

[RubyDuby]

Okay guys. I'm not saying you're wrong... I don't live where you live so couldn't possibly know what it's like. I'd love to be able to let my Spritzer out and be comfortable that he was safe and not doing any harm to the wildlife.

However, I can't figure out how you could possibly know what your cats are up to when they are unsupervised. How can you really know what they are hunting and where they are roaming, let alone the rest of the cats in your neighborhood. I also don't think you can see with your eyes, just by living there, any harm being done to bird and prey populations, etc.

I know this is a subject that is just going to have to end in disagreement. I'm glad none of your kitties have been killed yet, Harpy. I guess that's how you know that the situation works for you.

[cobweb]

I've had cats killed on the roads before - very quiet country lanes. They roamed free through fields and woodlands, but still got killed by cars . I still wouldn't keep them indoors if I had that time again, they were happy. However, I do understand why some people would think I was very wrong.

I think it's hard to judge the harm done to birds, etc. My cats (in the past) certainly did bring dead birds home - but I would question how anyone could put a statistic on that (as was quoted earlier in this thread).

On the other hand, the cats I've had in the past, and the one I have now, were left outdoors to fend for themselves by much more irresponsible people. Those cats were far more likely to kill more wildlife and cause themselves damage had they been left outside, so somebody had to take them in and care for them.

Each cat is different, just as each home is. My Fluffy stays in my garden or my next door neighbours and I can honestly say I do know what she's up to when she's out, 99% of the time .

[RubyDuby]

Yeah, well she's a senior citizen. I don't know what my cats do all day and they're inside!

My cats are happy, too.

I'm convinced any cat would get used to and be perfectly happy with the life my cats have.

[cobweb]

Yeah, well she's a senior citizen. I don't know what my cats do all day and they're inside!

My cats are happy, too.

I'm convinced any cat would get used to and be perfectly happy with the life my cats have.

I know, I'm cheating aren't I, using Fluffy as an example
I have absolutely NO doubt that you make sure your cats are well loved and happy, Ruby. Out of interest, do cats need sunlight the same way that humans and other animals do?. This aspect of keeping them indoors bothers me.

[missbettie]

Yeah, well she's a senior citizen. I don't know what my cats do all day and they're inside!

My cats are happy, too.

I'm convinced any cat would get used to and be perfectly happy with the life my cats have.

Mine stay inside too. actually i think that most shelters will not adopt out to you if you plan on having your cat go outside. letting your cat outside shortens their lifespan dramatically according to the Vets around here. And i'm sorry, if my cat didn't come home one night i would panic. there are too many coyotes, highways, cars, racoons, hawks, bears and mountain lions where i live. not to mention sadistic people. no way, no how. I will never let my animals outside unattended. my cats are happy as far as i can tell. they like to sleep in my green house window above my kitchen sink, they really enjoy tearing up my couch, and chasing each other on the counters knocking everything to the ground. oh they really like that.

[Assaye]

I agree. Cats are no different in terms of their needs, not really. Humans keep many large(er) animals captive as pets, such as dogs, large lizards, snakes, cats, large rodents, etc and cats are the only ones 'allowed' this freedom of roaming without supervision. From working with animals from fish to horses, I can attest to the fact that we don't generally give them enough space or attention (as a pet-keeping society) and yet we seem to have this 'special case' relationship with cats.

I know it's the done thing in many places to let cats roam, but if I wouldn't feel safe letting the lizard or horses out for a wander, I won't do the same for the cats. All these animals need space and freedom (more than I can really give them, if their wild ranges are anything to go by) and all these animals could be harmed by vehicles, other animals, pest controls and other humans. Not a risk I am willing to take for any animal in my care and I find the 'exception' that people give cats to be increasingly baffling.

I don't mean to get up anyone's back. I know opinions are strong on this matter! For me it's a basic matter of safety and a secondary consideration is the impact cats have on local wildlife. I do feel for cats that don't like being cooped up, but I think there are better solutions than letting them wander free.

[kikifromscotland]

I'm not sure if it was mentioned before but most rescues here will not let you take a cat unless you are going to let him or her out, and they must have some reason as to why this is so desirable.

I have had cats be hit by cars, but only when they were very young and didn't know any better. And we live nowhere near a main road, this was on a quiet cul-de-sac. Apart from my one cat who died in a car accident when he was only about a year old, and one who died of a medical issue completely unrelated to the fact he went outdoors, all my cats have lived until they were around 16-18 and died of old age. I also know a lot of other outdoor cats belonging to friends and family and their cats have lived similarly long.

I know my cats would not like to be indoor cats as I have kept one of them in before for 6 months (she broke her pelvis) and she absolutely hated it!!! She was not a happy cat at all, so desperate to get back out. It was lovely the time she was allowed back out again and was so happy running around on the grass.

I don't let them out for my own benefit- I'd love for them to stay in so I know where they are all the time. My compromise is that they between 10pm-6am they stay in, the reason being that I read that most accidents happen to cats at night and most wildlife is caught by cats at night. Also because I sleep better knowing they are in, and they are very good now at coming in at the right time. When they are out I have a good idea of where they will be as they don't go too far.

The only people I know here who keep their cats indoors are those who live in flats (so have no means of letting them out) or those whose cats have a medical issue requiring that they don't go out (eg. FIV)

[cobweb]

^ I agree, Kiki. My cats that got hit by cars had lived long lives before being hit, actually, but they had cat flaps and went out at night. I wouldn't let any of 'my' cats out at night now, I certainly don't with Fluffy. As you say, I'd rather know they were safe indoors but would feel cruel for confining them.

Cats are very different from horses and dogs, cats are used to being 'prey' animals themselves, can make themselves very still and small, and have a great ability to jump and climb. I really don't feel that they can be compared with other creatures. To suggest that Lizards should be allowed out is nonsense! (they shouldn't be kept as pets anyway imo).

[harpy]

Ruby, to answer your question from a few messages back I have an idea what ours catch because they leave the leftovers lying around the house, or a generous sample of them. In 80-odd cat-years we've only had one bird, a pigeon, but hundreds of rat and mice parts Also, we live in a city so the only animals around are the kinds that like to live near humans, which don't include many rare species.

Incidentally there was a bird (great tit?) hopping around in a bush outside the back door when I was feeding the cats this morning and they didn't take a bit of notice. But it's true they are semi-retired these days

[peaceheart]

My cat is a full-time indoor cat, as he has Feline Immunodeficiency Virus. I got him from Cats Protection, and they were specifically looking for an indoor home for him because of his compromised immune system. His sight is deteriorating and he has arthritis, so even without the FIV there would be other reasons for him to stay indoors.

Fortunately he loves it. He's very interested in people and likes to be wherever there is company. I've never met such a sociable cat before. Cats Protection think that he must have been abandoned before he came into their care, which would account for his preoccupation with keeping people in sight at all times, but I think part of it is just his personality - he's a curious animal and he likes to know what's going on.

[RubyDuby]

I know, I'm cheating aren't I, using Fluffy as an example
I have absolutely NO doubt that you make sure your cats are well loved and happy, Ruby. Out of interest, do cats need sunlight the same way that humans and other animals do?. This aspect of keeping them indoors bothers me.

They sit in windows and lounge on the sun porch

[sandra]

It saddens me to read some of the posts in this thread. Cats are just living beings like any other living beings on this planet and have a right to be respected like all other life. It amuses me the way humans go on about how many birds cats kill.........................think of the billions of birds humans kill every day...............there is no comparison.
Of course I don't like the fact that cats kill other animals/birds.................(mine don't because they have the run of a very large back garden where other animals/birds can't get into it) but unfortunately that's part of life. Humans have a choice, cats do not.
I can expect non vegans to talk about cats in such a negitave way...............but to hear vegans talk in such tones is very saddening.

[leedsveg]

I'm more of a dog person than a cat person but I can see where you're coming from Sandra.

I've probably said it before but we had a dog, Tony, for the first 15 years of my life. Nobody could have been a better friend and when I think of animal rights issues, I often use my memory of our Tony to help guide me. And people say "It's only an animal."

leedsveg

[sandra]

Exactly, Leedsveg!

As a vegan I view ALL life as important and deserving of respect. I happen to love dogs and cats and every other creature come to that. I may for example be afraid of spiders etc but I don't 'hate' them for it...............the same way as I don't 'hate' any humans who scare me...........and there are plenty of those believe me!

[laces]

I love animals. I want to be around them. I want to give them nourishment, affection, and company.

Not until I have a house with a garden though!

[laces]

Also, like you LeedsVeg, one of my motivators for adopting a vegan lifestyle was the thought of my cat. Although he doesn't live with me, I always think of him and how close we are, how I know he feels emotions just like me, and how much I would be angered if anyone hurt him. Then I realise, the same applies to any other animal.

[goodoldrebel]

Unless we stop the notion of captivating an animal for a 'pet' there will always be a vicious cycle of pet breeding and dumping to a shelter as well as a continuation of supporting parasitic industries such as the pet food business. We have to stop the cycle and as long as humans own 'pets' the cycle will never cease. We don't have to eat them or possess them. Just stop the cycle of domesticating animals.

[whalespace]

There are principles and human habits, then there are personal relationships. I could say that I love all creatures [and that would be very vague], but my actions shape my local environment. All of those local environments steer the wider environment.
I think people let cats roam around freely because they are relatively harmless to humans, and most humans are trying to stave off things which threaten them [or their comfort]... they are not worried about the welfare of rodents, birds, frogs etcetera. Possibly also, they need to expell the errr critters once in a while to get stuff done in the house.

Personally, those cats which fall into my care are 'the' cat[s], not 'my' cats. They do what they do. There are other things I would rather encourage.

[sandra]

Unless we stop the notion of captivating an animal for a 'pet' there will always be a vicious cycle of pet breeding and dumping to a shelter as well as a continuation of supporting parasitic industries such as the pet food business. We have to stop the cycle and as long as humans own 'pets' the cycle will never cease. We don't have to eat them or possess them. Just stop the cycle of domesticating animals.

I agree GOR, I wish humans didn't keep 'pets'. All animals are entitled to live their own lives but as vegans I feel we have a responsibility to the abandoned 'pets' that already exist. To ignore them and leave them to it, in this unfriendly animal world to fend for themselves would be cruel.
One day the whole world will be vegan.............people will respect animals and not keep them as pets.................but unfortunatley we are a long way from that scenario, I'm afraid.

[friend]

It saddens me to read some of the posts in this thread. Cats are just living beings like any other living beings on this planet and have a right to be respected like all other life. It amuses me the way humans go on about how many birds cats kill.........................think of the billions of birds humans kill every day...............there is no comparison.
Of course I don't like the fact that cats kill other animals/birds.................(mine don't because they have the run of a very large back garden where other animals/birds can't get into it) but unfortunately that's part of life. Humans have a choice, cats do not.
I can expect non vegans to talk about cats in such a negitave way...............but to hear vegans talk in such tones is very saddening.

The reason vegans talk in such a way is because they are humans.Intrinsically, most humans are not animal friendly.
Yet we do not and will not, let our cat roam, nor will we allow her to kill mice or birds.Simple.

[sandra]

The reason vegans talk in such a way is because they are humans.Intrinsically, most humans are not animal friendly.

Yes, vegans are human but by the very fact they ARE vegan should mean they are 'animal friendly' should it not?

[Beanie Babe]

If people never had pets, would that allow more or less reverence for animals in general? Quite often it's a close personal relationship with an animal that brings the human to view non-humans closer to equals than those who never have that kind of relationship. (Ack...it's early here, so I doubt I worded that the way I'd have liked...apologies.)

[CoolCat]

Most people are very specisist. If they had a bunny as pet they might not eat rabbit. If they like horses they probably won't eat horsemeat. But having a cat or dog doesn't make them think about the pigs or cows that are being processed by the system to fill their plate. Having a pet bird that they love very much doesn't cure the disconnect that chickens are birds too. People aren't very bright it seems. Or they just don't give a shit for anyone else than themselfs and those few they love.

[friend]

Point taken Sandra.
Coolcat, you have got it spot on.

[BunkyVegan]

If people never had pets, would that allow more or less reverence for animals in general? Quite often it's a close personal relationship with an animal that brings the human to view non-humans closer to equals than those who never have that kind of relationship

I have often wondered the same thing myself... I don't agree with breeding animals when there are so many that need homes at the moment; there are enough strays and shelter animals to allow anyone who wants a companion animal that opportunity to have one. But goodoldrebel is right, even if people adopted all the shelter animals in the world (which unfortunately I don't think will ever happen), there would eventually be a need to breed more if we are to continue keeping 'pets'... so the cycle continues.

However, I think (as Beanie Babe said) that for a lot of people having a 'pet' is the only contact they have with animals, and it often teaches people compassion and respect for animals. For me, and I think a lot of other vegans or vegetarians, our relationship with our companion animals was instrumental in changing our views towards other species and leading us towards veganism. So I'm very torn on this issue; it's the one area where I lean towards welfarism for animals that are truly domesticated like cats and dogs. I don't agree with breeding exotic animals.

[maggielassie]

1. I'm all for keeping rescued animals or animals that otherwise need me, but against keeping other 'pets'
(which I voted for)

because...
2. I'm against puppy mills and commercial breeding of animals

But ultimately...
3. I would like to see the end of humans keeping all animals

[maggielassie]

I wish humans didn't keep 'pets'. All animals are entitled to live their own lives but as vegans I feel we have a responsibility to the abandoned 'pets' that already exist. To ignore them and leave them to it, in this unfriendly animal world to fend for themselves would be cruel.
One day the whole world will be vegan.............people will respect animals and not keep them as pets.................but unfortunatley we are a long way from that scenario, I'm afraid.

I 100% agree with Sandra here.

[Karter Al]

This is a tricky one, with some grey area.

If a pet has been taken from the wild to then be a pet I am developing a large distaste for. So wild birds, rabbits etc...

However when it comes to dogs there is some grey. Dogs did cohabit with humans, and it did benefit their survival. Their was a mutual benefit, and it appeared quite a natural process. Unlike most other animals dogs and humans do share a real evolutionary relationship. If theories are correct they actively became part of human culture. We didn't go out and try and trap a load of wolves and domesticate them, they came to us as much as we came to them. So there is some grey there for me.... it's a tricky one because we eventually abused that relationship with breeding and so on.

[hedge]

I voted:
Unless we make all domesticated/institutionalized animals extinct (which I don't want), someone needs to take care of them
I'm against puppy mills and commercial breeding of animals
Regulations re. keeping animals need to be stricter than they are today

[splodge]

^I didn't know you could vote for more than one.

I think that hopefully one day the pet industry will be largely abolished, not least because cats and other carni/omnivores ideally need meat and therefore contribute to all kinds of problems. Until then, I suppose we have to take care of cats, dogs etc as there are many that need rescuing.