"Pets" - Which of these statements do you agree with?

[hazelbunny]

They only stay cos they're suffering from Stockholm syndrome!!

[magpie]

I'm not suggesting that all dogs go extinct, think of it more in terms of strains/families.

First of all, I didn't say I was 'happy' for a strain to die out.

You're right , you said you were suggesting it.

As for the rest of your sentence, I'm slightly perplexed as to what you mean. I'm talking about breeds/strains/sub species, not the whole species. A labrador is not a wolf is not a poodle is not a fox. They are all dogs, but distinct sub species/families of the whole canine family. If i didn't make that clear enough then I appologise.

But dogs aren't wolves and they aren't foxes, sure they're all canines but gorillas aren't chimps, dogs are a class in their own right. If you accept the extinction of dogs then its equally ok to say keep gibbons and let all other monkeys die out.

I'd happily be wrong on this one, as what you appear to be saying is that if we were to stop breeding animals to be owned as pets then the living ones could be set free and live quite happily without the need for rescue. If this is indeed what you're saying then I've a feeling many may disagree, not just me.

The obvious reason why uncared for pets cant be released is that they can survive in the wild, you make me wonder if you've ever had a pet, alot of cats never stop killing everything they can get their hands on and I've seen plenty of dogs kill other pets including cats, wildlife and farm animals. If all pets were released they would obviously be shot for the most part by farmers.

As when it became OK to talk about contraversial topics, provided it's done in a sensible, polite manner and isn't illegal it's always been OK. Is free speech a bad thing?

You obviously have the right to say what you like, I personally like to hear your view, what I mean is when did it become acceptable to let a species/family/subclass die out, I'm asking you if you can justify letting any healthy capable animal group die out, it might meet your mental criteria of whats acceptable but its a way off mine.

If you'd prefer, I'll change the example to a strain of cat with the same charactistics but instead of being useful for research looks similar to a cartoon figure and is very popular with the buying public.

There are issues with bad breeding of certain animals and they should be dealt with, yet that cartoon figure cat probably still goes out killing most nights if it can. Breeding ill health and weakness into any animal should be actively discouraged though.

"The 1926 Slavery Convention described slavery as "...the status or condition of a person over whom any or all of the powers attaching to the right of ownership are exercised...
The word slave does not imply forced labour, it's just the obvious thing to use them for if you have them. Take the example of women sold/kidnapped as wifes into polygamous marriages and held captive so their husbands can rape them when they fancy and force them to bear children. Are they pets because they as they aren't forced to work, or slaves because they have no (or restricted) rights and are owned?

Thanks for the definition of slavery but as you pointed out the term refers to humans. The rights of animals, such as they are, are enshrined in law and their condition is very different to that experienced by humans. Nowhere do we see humans being bred for food. Nowhere do we see humans in the same environment to a pet. You mention forced wives and rape! Raising some scumbag rapists child is not living as a pet, its living as a slave because having children with someone like that would be work. An animal on a farm destined for the table could not anymore be likened to a human slave than can a pet, animals have their own suffering and their own words to describe their condition.

Do you know any people who think they are god, kill other humans without a care and are cruel for cruelties sake? I'm not sure I want to meet your friends is the answer is yes . These aren't standard human traits, they are ones that an extremely small minority exert.

I like the fact that you have an idealistic view of humanity, you've maybe been lucky in your life, luckier than the countless billions of farmed animals that have suffered the truth of humanity, lucky maybe to live in country where genocide hasn't been committed, lucky not to be a woman married to a psychopath. I have known a few people who think they are god( plenty who worship humans as gods), plenty that kill for pleasure, not people I would call friends, just people.

As far as I'm concerned vermin is simply a specisist derogatory term for a species that humans dislike for whatever reason. Personally I don't dislike or disriminate against any species, humans included.

If the hat fits, wear it.

If you seriously believe you are living hell then can I respectfully suggest you consider seeing a psychiatrist? Personally I'm very happy with my life. I've countless things to be happy about and practicing mindfulness allows me to realise them on a regular basis. I could write an essay about all the fantastic things have happened in the past 24 hours and why I'm extremely lucky to be sitting here writting this post right now. Chances are that if you know what a computer is and have access to this forum you've probably a lot to be thankful for and aren't living in hell.

Mr F, I'm happy that you have mindful happiness in your life, and that your world is good.
For many though life is , you know, not so good, more like a living hell and there's many different versions of it. You may be living in a personal utopia but that doesn't mean that the world is one, or that some version of hell isn't paying a visit.
If you were a fois gras goose, or a battery chicken would you feel so chirpy, or a lab rat, or a teathered pig, or a victim of many of the cruelties of man on man. Hell, if it exists, is seen in what people do, what they create, is war heaven? Is the battery farm or the slaughterhouse, the torture chamber? Hell is being made by people here on earth and I guess you know you're not in it if you can write a book about all the joys you've had in the last 24 hours.

[Odinsfury]

I haven't read all of these posts but I see some good arguments from both sides. Personally, I only have a 20 gallon aquarium of some small cardinal tetra fish. I imagine that they could still be at the pet store in a much smaller aquarium packed in with much more fish per gallon, or they could have gone to an owner that doesn't know how to take care of fish and they could have died. I'd imagine that the same holds true for other animals that are kept by vegans.

[Mr Flibble]

But dogs aren't wolves and they aren't foxes, sure they're all canines

From http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/dog :

1. a domesticated canid, Canis familiaris, bred in many varieties.
2. any carnivore of the dogfamily Canidae, having prominent canine teeth and, in the wild state, a long and slender muzzle, a deep-chested muscular body, a bushy tail, and large, erect ears.

I was referring to meaning 2, but if you wish me to use 1 from here onwards I shall.

If you accept the extinction of dogs then its equally ok to say keep gibbons and let all other monkeys die out.

I'm talking about species that exist through human controlled breeding. The breeding of wild monkeys are not human controlled. If they were and could not exist without being so then yes, it would be equally 'ok'.

you make me wonder if you've ever had a pet

Would it matter if I had? Would it help me in making reasoned logical decisions or would it cloud my judgement with emotion?

If all pets were released they would obviously be shot for the most part by farmers.

If this happened tomorrow then that's possible. I've however never stated in this thread or others that any pets should be released into the wild at this moment in time - if ever. In the hypothetical situation of humans ceasing to have pets it's highly unlikely that there would still be farmers of animals.

what I mean is when did it become acceptable to let a species/family/subclass die out, I'm asking you if you can justify letting any healthy capable animal group die out, it might meet your mental criteria of what's acceptable but its a way off mine.

As I've already stated I'm only suggesting animal groups dying out that cannot exist without humans breeding them. I do not believe it is ethical to persist in artificially breeding such a group. If they can live in the wild and breed by themselves then that's fantastic - a great result. Otherwise we're continuing to breed and trade them as commodity for our amusement, not their interest.

There are issues with bad breeding of certain animals and they should be dealt with <removed irrelevant sentence>. Breeding ill health and weakness into any animal should be actively discouraged though.

But if they had been and now exist, would you advocate their continual existence?

Thanks for the definition of slavery but as you pointed out the term refers to humans. The rights of animals, such as they are, are enshrined in law and their condition is very different to that experienced by humans.

I do not practice speciesism. Humans are not separate to other animals beyond being a different species of animal. Many humans will not apply the use of the word murder to animals other than humans as you (from your other posts) seem quite happy to do so (the dictionary states it as being "The unlawful killing of one human by another"), instead using the word farmed. I see no gain in using separate words other than to cover up atrocities and make humans feel better about what they do.

I like the fact that you have an idealistic view of humanity

I have a realistic view of humanity. As stated these things you list are traits of a minority. If a black person broke into my car should I join the KKK? No, of course not. If you find humans so intolerable should you not help the situation instead of calling them names?

If the hat fits, wear it.

?

If you were a fois gras goose, or a battery chicken would you feel so chirpy, or a lab rat, or a teathered pig, or a victim of many of the cruelties of man on man. Hell, if it exists, is seen in what people do, what they create, is war heaven? Is the battery farm or the slaughterhouse, the torture chamber? Hell is being made by people here on earth and I guess you know you're not in it if you can write a book about all the joys you've had in the last 24 hours.

Indeed, I am not living in hell. I do what I can to help those that are - I do not promote the situation and ensure it's continued existence for my own gain. Why mention the suffering of farm animals when you already know I am vegan? What does it have to do with this thread about pets?

[Greentara 1]

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[Wishes]

I could not live without my pets. To come home without them here would be coming to a cold dead house. Right now I only have one kitty. She is 14, has diabetes which I treat with insulin and has always been completely wacky. She was born in an apartment and has been an indoor cat all her life.

My other old girl, who I lost to old age two years ago, was a stray. I brought her to my then apartment and she was an indoor cat for the rest of her life. She never tried to get out even once. She seemed content to have a home. She was my grumpy girl.

[Linxie]

Hi everyone. I was surprised to read recently that many vegans find keeping pets incompatible with their beliefs so I was interested to see what had been written about it on here.

While I don't necessarily agree with the overall idea of pets, and certainly don't agree with people buying them, I have always been of the opinion that as an animal lover, if I can give a good home to an unwanted or abandoned animal, then I should. Plus I can't imagine pet ownership being banned any time soon!

While I can see that not eating/buying animal products is a way of protesting against the meat/dairy industry, I think that by not keeping animals its only the animals themselves that suffer.

I have two birds. One in particular had a very bad start in life and it has taken me a long time to bring him out of his shell. Some days I still can't get him out of his cage even if I leave the door open! But I am doing my best to give them the best possible life that I can

I also work for an animal welfare charity whose main aim is to rehome unwanted and abandoned animals.

[Barley]

Quote Yep, that's me. I don't believe that breeding for slavery (slavery being a state where you don't have the same rights as your master) is ethical. No debate about that (at least, I'd be extremely impressed if someone even made a dent on that belief). It isn't ethical to breed human children to be slaves and it isn't for non humans. I want children, but if I had the choice between having children born with the rights we give to 'pets' or not having kids then I'd choose not to. I'd rather my family died out than subject future generations to that kind of treatment (whether their 'owners' claimed they loved them or not). If aliens enslaved the earth and there was no hope that humans would ever be anything but slaves to them, would you happily want to have loads of kids? I'm not shocked (not many things shock me these days), I am disturbed however at the amount of people who care more about what they want (pretty animals to look at and live with) than the lives of individuals. At no point have I stated that I do not believe in rescue for existing non humans that have been bred by selfish humans to rely on them, but if species were to regress over my lifetime to the point there were at 20,000 years ago (a blink of the eye in terms of evolution and at a stage where they require no human interaction) then it would be (in my view) a fantastic thing for AR going forward.[/quote]




Mr Flibble - I agree with you 100&#37; - unlike some, I know *exactly* where you are coming from and there is absolutely no offence given towards any animal. This is a true statement of animal rights

[eclectic_one]

I wish "pets" would be given more legal status personally. I remember a few years ago when an incident of road rage led to a man pulling a bichon frise out of a woman's car and throwing it into traffic where it was killed. I mentioned how angry the small amount of time in prison was even likely due to his actions and tons of my students thought I was being ridiculous. They started saying (falsely) that people get less time for child abuse than animal abuse. I pointed out that if that was the case, people should just get more time for child abuse, not less time for animal abuse. But then most of the people whom I talk to about animals really don't seem to care about how they're treated very much But I really can't imagine my life without animal companions...I often find myself thinking of them as my children, seldom ever as "pets." Even other family members have pointed out just how connected we are to each other and how especially my dog is really more like my son. Since I doubt seriously that there'll be a lack of needy animals in my lifetime, I'm happy to know that I'll be able to directly share my entire life with animals. I would just like to get things changed so that they are not considered "property," but rather the sentient and feeling beings that they are.

[Linxie]

In the UK they have just passed new animal welfare legislation but even that doesn't go as far as I would have liked. A step in the right direction though I suppose!?

[BlackCats]

I have four cats who I think of as my responsibility, I say that they are mine just as I say "my husband", I say "my cats".

When I became vegan I bought the Animal Free Shopper book and it mentioned that some vegans were against pet ownership.
I had never thought that having pets or companion animals was against the principle veganism, I suppose I hadn't opened my mind to that extent about animal rights.

Now I can see the negative side of having animals kept by humans in that they are unable to live their natural lives.
I bought my first cat from a pet shop and I got my other three cats from an advert in a paper when I didn't know better. I would never do either of these things again. The only good thing is that the last three were siblings so at least they live together. I do think domestic cats have a more natural life as they have an outdoor life partly in the house and partly outside, where they can come and go as they please.

But I do enjoy having my animals in my house which I realise is entirely selfish. I do hope to rescue some more cats or dogs from shelters but I am not doing it from purely altruistic motives, I do love having them around.

[Klutz]

I call my dogs "mine" because as my "property" they have more rights and protection than if they were on their own. But, in my heart and mind, they are mine and I'm theirs because we are a family. Sure, I make the majority of the household decisions, but I also am the primary breadwinner in our family. okay, the only since I don't require them to have jobs. We three are extremely close. I always think of them when I make decisions, especially big ones. I'm planning on moving and changing jobs at the end of my current contract and I'm very particular about the location because I want them to have nice places to walk and play outside as well as warmer winters than what we've had up here in Seoul and North of Seoul. I look carefully at the work hours so that they are not home alone too much. I buy and prepare food with sharing with them in mind. I arrange furniture and such in our house with their comfort and safety in mind. I rarely even vist my home country because I worry about their comfort, safety, and happiness while with a dogsitter. They are my children, my best friends, my companions in life, they are the furry pieces of my heart. I will never regret their entering my life and would never, ever consider getting rid of them just to fit some idealistic vegan principles. If not having animal companions ever becomes a part of the definition of a vegan, then I will gladly give up that term and become a strict vegetarian instead. My dogs are everything to me. I like to think I'm everything to them as well. I might be and I might not be, but all I care about is that we are sharing our lives and love together.

[nickysr]

i agree with mr flibble wholeheartedly - have composed a long rambling post - but edited it as he really has said it all.

[Barley]

I call my dogs "mine" because as my "property" they have more rights and protection than if they were on their own. But, in my heart and mind, they are mine and I'm theirs because we are a family. Sure, I make the majority of the household decisions, but I also am the primary breadwinner in our family. okay, the only since I don't require them to have jobs. We three are extremely close. I always think of them when I make decisions, especially big ones. I'm planning on moving and changing jobs at the end of my current contract and I'm very particular about the location because I want them to have nice places to walk and play outside as well as warmer winters than what we've had up here in Seoul and North of Seoul. I look carefully at the work hours so that they are not home alone too much. I buy and prepare food with sharing with them in mind. I arrange furniture and such in our house with their comfort and safety in mind. I rarely even vist my home country because I worry about their comfort, safety, and happiness while with a dogsitter. They are my children, my best friends, my companions in life, they are the furry pieces of my heart. I will never regret their entering my life and would never, ever consider getting rid of them just to fit some idealistic vegan principles. If not having animal companions ever becomes a part of the definition of a vegan, then I will gladly give up that term and become a strict vegetarian instead. My dogs are everything to me. I like to think I'm everything to them as well. I might be and I might not be, but all I care about is that we are sharing our lives and love together.

Klutz.... I can't see how anyone - vegan or otherwise - could disagree with the sentiments you express here, or your obvious devotion to your dogs - I am the same. There is no question of anyone having to 'get rid' of their existing animal companions - I'd be at the front of the queue fighting that too - of course.... You don't say if your dogs are rescue dogs or not and that is an important question.... If you actually bought your dogs from breeders this is where the problems start to arise and where we seem to be at cross purposes on this thread.... You are obviously committed to your dogs, but if you bought them from a breeder - what do you think happened to their siblings? - what will happen to the mother dog? She has her babies taken away so that people can have little bundles of fluff to pet and pamper - or as often as not as toys for their children - what happens to dogs purchased for those reasons when they become large adults without that puppy appeal, and maybe they don't like children? The mother dog by this time will have had another litter or two and again the puppies are taken away, sold to whoever turns up with the cash - it's no better than the dairy industry really, and it's how the whole puppy farm thing survives and thrives.

I know I'm generalising about breeders, maybe some do take care where the puppies go, but it's a business for them, like any other and they're in it for profit... Dogs are sociable, family creatures who, like us all, prefer the company of their own kind - I feel so sad for puppies taken away from their families to live a soilitary life with human beings who may or may not understand them...I can hear you saying 'but I've got two'.... yes, but most people don't....

I've run out of steam... yes, for vegans like me, ideally, one day there will be no more 'companion' animals because the whole concept of keeping animals as slaves to us must go so that, although a minority can thrive and be happy as such, the majority, who suffer - take reptiles, spiders, etc, different, but part of the 'pet' industry, will suffer no more....

[Klutz]

My older dog was a surprise birthday present from friends. I bought my younger dog at a pet store. This was before I was vegan and before I knew better. I had wanted to get a shelter dog at the time, but I lived on an island and there was ONE shelter. That shelter didn't happen to have any dogs that didn't shed, so it wasn't an option for me. I have asthma and allergies. I knew what kind of breeds I would do well with. Anyway, I didn't see the harm in getting a dog from the pet store. Not at that time. Again, I know better now. Next time a dog enters my life, he/she will be a rescue dog. The fact that my dogs were not rescue dogs does not make me love them any less. The fact that I bought my younger dog from a pet store before I knew better does not make me love her any less OR make me regret getting her. I happen to know that the friends who gave me my older dog did not rescue him from a shelter or a life on the streets. Doesn't make me love him any less or regret that he is in my life. What's done is done. You don't turn back on love just because it doesn't come from the ideal background.

[fiamma]

My dog is an Italian Pointer, a hunting dog, and I got him from a breeder. I specifically wanted this breed because it is very hardy, and suited the purpose I wanted to use him for, companionship and search and rescue work.
I don't share the view that if everyone took a rescue dog then breeders would cease to exist - in an ideal world this logic is very sound, but in reality it just doesn't work that way. Hunters are notorious for mistreating their dogs, and at least mine was saved from that fate - he has a loving home and does work which he loves and which saves lives.

[Barley]

Maybe it's different where you are but in this country most breeds have a rescue organisation. I tend to German Shepherds and their crosses myself because, like you, they have certain characterisitics which fit in well with me - i.e. they tend to be very unsociable and don't like visitors...They are not like other breeds and are often to be found in the rescue centres because people don't understand them, where they suffer greatly, quickly becoming depressed.... Anyway, I have used German Shepherd rescue organisiations and though I tend to go for older dogs as younger ones find home more easily, it is possible to get younger dogs which could be trained for the type of work you do.

[fiamma]

Unfortunately things aren't that well organised here I know that in the States and in the UK they have greyhound rescues and for other breeds too. I don't agree with all breeding practices, but don't feel it's as black and white an issue as some people claim. But others on here will disagree.

[Mahk]

I'm not advocating this, but I do have a question. Have I properly thought this through or am I missing something? If the entire world unanimously agrees to:
A) Have their pets spayed or neutered.
B) Only adopt rescued animals, breeders agree to close their businesses.
then
C) All pet species eventually die off after one life-cycle (except for ones in the wild).

[Mr Flibble]

Who is your question directed to Mahk?

Personally I've both answered your question and justified it several times in this thread already.

[Mahk]

Anyone can answer. It's not meant for anyone in particular but rather for the entire ongoing discussion. Also, my question is not, "Should we do this?" My question is, "Is there a mechanism in place that would continue the survival of these domesticated species which I am overlooking?"

For example, I would think all human communities have to some degree a population of dogs and cats that "live on the streets": street cats, alley cats, stray dogs, feral animals, or whatever you want to call them. Considering we actually have people in the profession of catching them (dog catchers), I know they do exist. What I don't know is if that animal population would naturally vanish under your (Mr. Flible's) proposed phasing-out of all domesticated pets. Assuming they breed, my initial thought is no, they wouldn't disappear.

[BlackCats]

I had a pamphlet through the door from Cats Protection the other day and they said they have a policy of catching feral cats, neutering them and returning them so they could not spread disease etc.
I was wondering if this was just propaganda or if there is a need to neuter and phase them out just like domestic cats (as they find it hard to survive without human intervention?)

[harpy]

I don't think Cats Protection are trying to phase out cats in general, but apart from the disease problem feral cats tend not to have a very good life and are difficult to rehome so I think CP probably be happy if there were no more feral cats.

As things are the question of cats etc becoming extinct is an academic one isn't it? In an ideal world I suppose we could offer the animals some sort of quasi-natural habitat and let them decide for themselves how closely they wanted to associate with humans, if at all.

[Mahk]

I just googled to find out how many stray dogs there are in the world: approximately 480 million! From what I remember from sex education class, you only need two or more for breeding to occur.

[BlackCats]

I remember when I used to stay on my family's farm when I was younger they had feral cats in the barn which they gave scraps of food to as a reward for killing mice and rats I guess. They always seemed very thin to me but I suppose I was comparing them to domestic cats. They always ate the food they left but they didn't need it I suppose because they can catch their own food?

[harpy]

I've heard that well-fed cats are actually better at catching rodents than underfed cats - maybe they can't catch enough to live on properly, or maybe it's a rumour put around to encourage people to feed their cats...

I imagine that on average farm cats have better lives than urban ferals. I know cat rescue organisations often try to rehome feral cats as farm cats because it's easier for them to live that way than to settle into a family home if they're not used to it.

[BlackCats]

I know the feral cats I saw on the farm probably had a much better life then urban cats around here today. Its weird because my family kept pigs, cows, sheep etc but it was the cats I came away feeling sorry for (I was about 6 years old though.)
It was 1980-something though and I don't think farmers treated animals with such disrespect as they do today wih factory farming. (Maybe they did and I have a rosy tinted image.)

[mandee]

All of my pets were rescues. I have 5 kitties, a dog, and a rabbit. They are my babies. I couldn't live without them! However i think it's horrible to bread NEW animals for pets. If you know what i mean.

[onebigvegan]

<<No, but... I don't think keeping pets (other than rescued animals) is ethically acceptable, but my love for / desire to be around animals is stronger then my principles.>>

my old dog Blaze died about five years ago, he was a rescue dog, a 3time loser, so on the death list at the shelter i worked at. i got him 4 years before i was vegan, so he was not fed a vegan diet. at the time vegan dog food and nutrition even in the vegan world was not a viable plan. so i kept him as an omni. i have always considered owning pets not to be vegan in any sense, but as life goes on shades of grey come into play. Now i'd consider companion animals that have been rescued to be acceptable for a vegan to co-exist with, a symbiosis.

i had this choice three months ago when i found a starved, beaten, flea bitten, mange and worm ridden, stinking with urine puppy. could i leave it in ireland to slowly die or as it would, the rescue centers wouldn't take it, euthanase it or take it as my own. so i've got a dog when i said i'd NEVER have an other animal. best laid plans eh?

[Ruth]

I want to say that I don't agree with breeding while there are so many animals who need homes.

But my (well, my family's) dog Jack is from a breeder (a decision my mum uncharacteristically took, which I disagree with) and to disagree with breeding would be to disagree with him being alive, and I love him to bits and I'm sure he would rather he is alive too.


I can't have this discussion while I have pets because it would be like saying I disagree with having them.

There is a very strong, mutual love there.

I don't like keeping animals caged though. As a child I had a number of animals which were caged, and now I feel bad that I did it because they were kept separate from other animals, with no company, for my entertainment. I will probably always feel guilty about that. I try not to think about it because it upsets me.

But I have a dog and two cats now who have plenty of freedom (believe me, Jack doesn't want any more - he won't even go upstairs in our house because it is so unfamiliar to him!), and they are very well looked after and respected and left to their own devices. I disagree with training my dog too. I believe that the only training that should be done is for safety. So he comes when I call him and knows to sit before crossing a road. I don't call him for fun, I do it to stop him running into a road. My mum taught him to lie, and I completely didn't like that because there was no need for it. I found it adorable to watch, but I don't like to make him do it because it's just exercising unnecessary power.

Dogs do like some degree of guidance though. They live in packs in the wild, and have leaders. The family is like their pack. It may not be natural, but it can also be seen as beautiful that man and animals can live so harmoniously together, with such understanding. Me and my animals really understand each other. I know them. And they know me. They know when I don't feel well, and they learn to communicate with us too.

I like to avoid calling them 'pets' because they're not. They are not below me, they're a part of the family.

And I have great respect for them.

[Aradia]

Why would it be wrong for a vegan to keep a pet? Or put another way, share their home with an animal/animals. Being a vegan very often goes hand in hand with compasion and love for all creatures, what's more natural than to give harbour to one or more.

I have always had animals in my home - I've never bought one, as I don't approve of that, what with so many needing somewhere safe to live. I've got some animals from rescue centres, but much more often they have found me and choosen to move in.

Neither do I tend to call them pets... not a particularly concious decision, I just don't consider them that way. I have love and respect for them.

[HappyVegan]

I have 4 fury family members in my house (all rescued cats). I also don't believe in breeding new animals but there are so many out there who need rescuing. We got all 4 of ours when we lived out in the country in Missouri. People would see a house out in the middle of nowhere and drop unwanted kittens off in our ditch. I couldn't bring myself to take them to the shelters in the area (this was a very animal un-friendly southern town) so I decided to keep and take care of them myself.

[Wishes]

I too hate the idea of bred animals. People buy pets when there are wonderful pets available out there who need homes.

I have no problem keeping domesticated pets. I have never had a dog in my adult life. But I live and work for my cats. They are strictly indoors and this home is their home. They are not "trained" and are not punished for their natural behavior such as sharpening their claws (and I have the couch to prove it. So I knew better than to buy an expensive couch) I would not want to live without my pets and I could not come home to a dead empty space without them.

[eclectic_one]

I totally agree that my life would be empty without my furbabies. Maybe I'm selfish, but I would hate to live my life w/o furbabies. I also think that once I got out on my own and started sharing my life with furbabies, they are treated like my kids and don't feel neglected or imprisoned. I hope to always have some animal companions in my home and don't find their place with me "unvegan" at all.

[I also saw a special on dogs and some anthropologists/zoologists are theorizing that both cats and dogs/wolves actually "joined up" with us of their own accord. That the dogs/wolves that approached us were less aggressive and less fearful of us, so were probably "low" in their packs and joining our "pack" made their lives easier. Cats probably approached us because our living arrangements encouraged large populations of rodents and they eventually trained us to take care of them Other animals such as rabbits--which I also have--are not the same in that regard though ]

[Mahk]

Yes, I would think that several animal groups were first attracted to our villages from the smell of our garbage. Depending on how safe we thought they'd be to keep in the presence of babies, we cherry picked out the non aggressive dogs and cats but shunned the other species like bears, rats, mice etc that still seek our garbage to this day.

[Noogle]

I encourage people to care for animals that are in shelters or are homeless. It's not about giving money to the pet trade, it's about giving an animal a better life. Sure, it's not their perfect life, but it's better than having them living in a cage for the rest of their days.

A lot of people [omnivores or otherwise] want to keep pets, and if they can take care of them, I will point them in the direction of the shelter. Also, keeping pets can give you a respect for animals, I am certain that it was my caring for different species of animals that helped toward my decision to become a vegan.

[frank language]

<<No, but... I don't think keeping pets (other than rescued animals) is ethically acceptable, but my love for / desire to be around animals is stronger then my principles.>>

my old dog Blaze died about five years ago, he was a rescue dog, a 3time loser, so on the death list at the shelter i worked at. i got him 4 years before i was vegan, so he was not fed a vegan diet. at the time vegan dog food and nutrition even in the vegan world was not a viable plan. so i kept him as an omni. i have always considered owning pets not to be vegan in any sense, but as life goes on shades of grey come into play. Now i'd consider companion animals that have been rescued to be acceptable for a vegan to co-exist with, a symbiosis.

i had this choice three months ago when i found a starved, beaten, flea bitten, mange and worm ridden, stinking with urine puppy. could i leave it in ireland to slowly die or as it would, the rescue centers wouldn't take it, euthanase it or take it as my own. so i've got a dog when i said i'd NEVER have an other animal. best laid plans eh?

Never say never...when my [rescued] golden retriever Tipper died last May, I wanted to adopt another animal right away. There are plenty of animals in need, and keeping animals has never been against my code of ethics.

I have never bought an animal from a breeder or pet store, although I'm a dog walker and most of the dogs I walk have been purchased. A few are rescues, and very much loved--but then again, so are the store-bought animals.

This past February, I went to a shelter and adopted a springer spaniel I found while searching on Petfinder. He had been there over a month and was severely underweight; his cage-mate was probably stealing his food. In the past several months, I've been able to get him to look amazingly great, so that he's now an ambassador of both rescue animals and vegan pets. (I don't have a problem with the word "pet;" it's too cumbersome to say "animal who shares my home.")

I probably differ from most people here in that I also don't have a problem with training animals to be service animals--seeing-eye or signal dogs, or animals trained for other service functions to the disabled.

[Mahk]

(I don't have a problem with the word "pet;" it's too cumbersome to say "animal who shares my home.")

Yes, I agree. Much simpler and quicker than using the more politically correct, "This is Fido, he's my non-human, sentient, significant, symbiotic, cohabitant other."

[Klutz]

I simply say, "This is my son. And this is my daughter." Or, "These are my kids."



And then I bask in the weird looks I get. ^_^

[veganlinda]

Am happier now that I have discovered vegan catfood and my cat seems to really love them. So we will be a totally vegan household soon

My ickle baby (although 10 years old so not so much of a baby) sleeps for part of most nights curled up in my arms. She is very much her own cat and could easily leave any day if she wanted too. I feel very blessed to be loved by my cat and that she gets worried if I am away and that she wants to share things with me. It is partly because I care so much for her and partly appreciating her ability to love, be curious, be worried that I have moved from being a vegan from a philosopical view point to now having a more empathic stance.

[cobweb]

^ that brought a lump to my throat

[eclectic_one]

Yes, I agree. Much simpler and quicker than using the more politically correct, "This is Fido, he's my non-human, sentient, significant, symbiotic, cohabitant other."

I still say "pet" when I'm talking to those who are...um...less than progressive. However, I usually say companion animals or furbabies to those who "get" it. Pet to me just makes me think of a patronizing attitude, but that's just my feeling about it and I don't think negatively about the person using the term.

(I have had people mishear furbabies and think i was talking about Furbies though )

[Imported Memory]

I actually abhor domestication of animals. But I have taken in many abandoned pets who couldn't make it on their own.

Most of these make their way to new homes where I feel confident they will be cared for. My current feline pal, Acajou, came from an abusive home and has a serious food sensitivity problem. Speaking of food, is there a thread discussing vegan diets for our animal companions? I did a search for one in here earlier, but came up empty handed. I saw it mentioned earlier in this thread and hope someone may be able to help me in my quest to find a vegan diet that Aki can actually digest.

I would be content to be pet free if the domestication of animals was not a disgusting reality. But, until animals are once more restored to their former glory, I will do what I can to ensure that some animals will lead happier lives.
I do have one friend who is a breeder.
The idea is uncomfortable for me. Even more so when I discovered that most of the resulting puppies were too sick (from genetic issues resulting from inbreeding) to survive and most had to be euthanised anyway. I honestly think the euthanised puppies might have it better than some that are purchased, since they will never experience the pain of mistreatment and abandonment. From material I have come across, I've assumed that PeTA is a proponent of euthanasia. One article, in particular mentioned PeTA's euthanasia of rescued lab animals. Now, this may seem like a very harsh viewpoint, and I am certain that there are many who disagree. But I side with PeTA in this argument. If it were me being used for testing purposes against my will, I would probably welcome my death. For me, it's all about quality of life, not quantity. Why should anything or anyone ever be forced to suffer?

I stand against the extermination of all domesticated animals because I feel it is an issue that would need to be resolved gradually. As long as the animals are properly cared for, they should be allowed to live with their human friends. A more effective way to fix the situation would be to eliminate breeding and sales of animals, whilst ensuring that already domesticated species do not breed in captivity.

All of the pets I've taken care of have been spayed or neutered where possible. As much as I dislike surgical procedures upon the unwilling, I believe it is best. Heck, if I were straight, I would've had a vasectomy by now. There's no way I'd be comfortable adding to the overpopulation myself. I can hardly expect the cat I live with do his part in reducing the suffering of his species if I'm not willing to do so as well.

[gogs67]

I find the idea of not having animals around (pet's,companion animals,whatever term you find fitting) a bit odd.To deny yourself the enjoyment and companionship of animals around is,to me,to deny yourself part of what being human is all about,we have evolved and adapted WITH animals round us not seperate from them!

[cobweb]

It just scares me...........you give humans a privilege and they end up thinking they have a right . Animals don't understand our words and we don't understand them - some of us understand better than others, but the trouble is that any human can keep animals imprisoned in their homes/gardens, etc. It makes me shudder to imagine all those rabbits locked away who never get any exercise, or to see the dear little dogs that live next door to me, out in the garden in all weathers .

I love living with companion animals but i would forgo that joy tomorrow if there were to be a blanket ban on all pet 'ownership' meaning that animals could never fall into the wrong hands again .

[Mr Flibble]

I find the idea of not having animals around (pet's,companion animals,whatever term you find fitting) a bit odd.To deny yourself the enjoyment and companionship of animals around is,to me,to deny yourself part of what being human is all about,we have evolved and adapted WITH animals round us not seperate from them!

Your justification/reasoning is identical to that which some people use for eating meat. E.g.

"I find the idea of not having animals to eat a bit odd. To deny yourself the enjoyment of eating animals is, to me, to deny yourself what being human is all about, we have evolved and adapted WITH eating animals"

[missbettie]

I frankly couldn't imagine not having my animal friends. I treat them better than I treat my roomates, they are my roomates, but i take care of them (and they take care of me). I do however believe that certain people should not be allowed to take care of animals (just like I believe certain people shouldn't be allowed to have children). It really drives me crazy when people buy animals and have to give them up because of some lame reason, like moving or the fur is getting on their furniture. idiots.

[eclectic_one]

I agree with you. There are even people who declaw rabbits (I noticed your avatar ) because they don't like their digging or declaw cats because they're ruining furniture. Now people like that should NOT be allowed to have companion animals!

BTW, I think animals and humans were intended to be companions (as I am a christian, so believe that God put all animals--including humans--here), which is TOTALLY different than eating them

[gogs67]

Your justification/reasoning is identical to that which some people use for eating meat. E.g.

"I find the idea of not having animals to eat a bit odd. To deny yourself the enjoyment of eating animals is, to me, to deny yourself what being human is all about, we have evolved and adapted WITH eating animals"

Twist it how you want!If you cant see the difference between eating and companionship i don't think i'd want tae visit yer house!

[Mahk]

Your justification/reasoning is identical to that which some people use for eating meat. E.g.

"I find the idea of not having animals to eat a bit odd. To deny yourself the enjoyment of eating animals is, to me, to deny yourself what being human is all about, we have evolved and adapted WITH eating animals"

Mr. Flibble, I think a more appropriate analogy for your argument would be the justification for slavery, not eating meat:
"I find the idea of not having slaves around a bit odd.To deny yourself the enjoyment and companionship of slaves around is,to me,to deny yourself part of what being human is all about,we have evolved and adapted WITH slaves round us not separate from them!"

Continuing on that thought:

"Although there may be a few bad apples out there, the majority of us slave owners feed, clothe, and nurture our slaves quite well. It is in their own best interest for us to keep them, since they can't fend for themselves on the streets and would perish without us. I love my slaves, think of them as friends or my family really, and I hardly ever beat them and of course only when they've been bad or have attempted to escape their cage or the locked doors of my house. People who beat their slaves for fun just make me sick! Whenever I castrate or brand my slaves I always allow them to get liquored up first and only use sterile cutting shears and branding irons to minimize infections."

"Slavery has existed for thousands of years. This is God's way, you see, and slavery is condoned in both the Old and New Testament. Being Christian, I strictly adhere to the Bible's rules regarding beatings:

When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)"