"Pets" - Which of these statements do you agree with?

[Mzee]

[The following is an extract from my post of 9/10/07 in the "Animals like vegans better" thread]

"I've thought a lot about the question of companion animals and I've reached my conclusions; I'm just surprised that so many seem to have reached different conclusions.
As I see it the 3 main reasons for going vegan are (not necessarily in this order):

1. To avoid animal cruelty;
2. A healthier lifestyle;
3. The environment.

I think the effect of having companion animals goes against all 3 reasons:

1. Animal cruelty I think it's cruel to keep an animal as if it was your baby; its best parents must be of its own species. Hard as it is, I have decided that I have to enjoy watching animals in the wild. I'm lucky to have a bit of garden, so all the flowers in it (planted around the edges) are native species. I put in a small pond (fish- free, obviously) and planted that with only native pond plants. In the centre of the garden are my vegan organic vegetable beds (which benefit from the wildlife attracted by the rest of the garden).

2. Health There are many human diseases which can be caught from companion animals, just as the animals can catch diseases from us.

3. Environment Most companion animals are not native species. Recent DNA analysis shows that the domestic cat is not descended from the native wild cat, but from one in the Middle East. The domestic dog is descended from the wolf, but has been selectively bred to produce varieties that some humans think look "cute", but are so in-bred that they suffer from all sorts of genetic defects.
My garden gets visited by cats from neighbouring properties; they contaminate my vegetables with their non-vegan faeces and they have killed some of the wild birds that I managed to attract. This scares off other birds from visiting, so there are fewer to control vegetable-eating insects."

So that's my opinion; basically I'm agreeing with The Feckler. I don't expect we'd come out at the top of the poll, though, if and when we ever get one.

I just want to add that I appreciate that this is a very emotive topic and I completely understand how so many can hold a different opinion so strongly. I'm not trying to upset anyone, I just think we should all stand back for a minute and look at the bigger picture.

We vegans are a small minority, but we want to maximise our effect on the world, therefore minimising the suffering of animals. Therefore we need to consider how our actions are perceived by omnivores.

If we keep 'companion animals' ourselves, but tell ourselves that it is OK because we are treating them better than omni pet-owners, we will just get into an "Oh no you don't, Oh yes we do!" competition with the omnis, which isn't going to convince anybody.

There is a problem with animals being discarded and ending up in rescue centres, which only happens with omnis. (I certainly hope this is true.) If we say we'll only keep animals that come from a rescue centre, then we're actually cleaning up after the omnis and making it easier for them to discard more animals.
If they see we're doing it, they'll use us as an excuse to say "I'll just discard this animal, it doesn't matter, some stupid vegan will take it in." They'll not do the sums about how many vegans there are and how many animals we can take in, they're just looking to excuse their cruelty; we're making it easier for them.
Each animal that is discarded is a new opportunity for the breeder to sell a younger, 'cuter' animal as a replacement.

So it's a very hard answer I've given - we have to steel ourselves against our compassionate instincts. If anybody discards an animal, they must not be able to find any excuse for their actions.
We must be able to show how cruel the animal trade is and how cruel some pet-owners are without anybody being able to say "How come it's OK for vegans to keep animals, but not us?"
We have to keep the message simple if we're going to influence anybody; it's the only way forward for greater animal welfare.

[gogs67]

[The following is an extract from my post of 9/10/07 in the "Animals like vegans better" thread]

"I've thought a lot about the question of companion animals and I've reached my conclusions; .

You've obviously thought about it a lot but it's such a different way of looking at it that,from my point of view,it'd be going round in circles to debate!
Fair enough!

[Andy]

So what do we do with the discarded animals? If its to put them down then thats far more unvegan than cleaning up after omnis in my opinion. I dont think there are any other alternatives? Also I dont see why the animals should be punished for their previous owners mistakes.

Personally I really love having animals around me however I would be more than happy to give that up if the pet trade were to disappear, A law that said all cats and dogs had to be neutered would be welcomed by me.

[missbettie]

[
There is a problem with animals being discarded and ending up in rescue centres, which only happens with omnis. (I certainly hope this is true.)

Gaz, my cat friend got me and two other roomates evicted from our apartment ( it sounds crazy and that I was stupid for bringing in an animal that was not allowed in our building, but there are underlying reasons for me doing it which if you would like I can explain.) As soon as we got evicted we had the option to move and keep Gaz or get rid of her, obviously I kept her.

I totally understand where everyone is coming from however I totally could not live with out my friends. I feel like we as humans put domestic animals into a horrible situation. We bred them to be dependant on us, and thusly its our responsibilty to help take care of them. I WILL NOT buy from a bredder to promote the needless bredding of animals, but I will however rescue them from irrasponsible people as well as shelters.

I.E: The rabbit I have living with me, I call her Bunni, me and my boy friend found running around a busy street, my bf's aunt told me that she had been crossing the street several times a day for the past week, and this is a busy street. We ended up catching her and letting her be a house rabbit. now she does not have to worry about getting hit by cars, eatten by coyotes, and considering where she was running around getting eatten by people. She seems very happy living with us and has become very very friendly, she even sleeps on our bed with us, right next to the cat.

And also regarding the statement you had said about people getting sick from animals, I have never, I know its possible, but I really really believe that it is my responisbily to take care of those that can't particularly do it themselves, regardless of the negetative aspects it has on my life, just like if being a Vegan cut my life short buy 10 years, I would still be a vegan.

Like I said before I totally understand where you are coming from! I just wanted to state my view too!!!

[Roxy]

Gaz, my cat friend got me and two other roomates evicted from our apartment ( it sounds crazy and that I was stupid for bringing in an animal that was not allowed in our building, but there are underlying reasons for me doing it which if you would like I can explain.)

If the reasons aren't too personal, I wouldn't mind knowing why you got evicted. We're not allowed to keep "pets" either in our apartment building, but of course, we have Shiloh.

Was your cat noisy, or excessively destructive or something?

I know someone whose lease says that they are not allowed to keep a "pet" in their apartment and if they do, and they get found out, they are fined $100 per day until they, or the pet leaves

[RubyDuby]

100 per day??? wow. thats 3000+ per month (duh i know)

[Roxy]

LOL! I know....it's outrageous! I'd like to know weather they could actually enforce such a fine. It seems a bit ridiculous to me.

[RubyDuby]

i bet they could. and do!

[Roxy]

Well, for my friends sake, I hope they don't! She would never give her cat away, but it would be such a drama to have to move.

[emzy1985]

If it says so in the contract and you/they have signed it they can basically do what they like! I'm quite adept at dealing with troublesome landlords and housemates lol!

As for the adoption thing someone mentioned a few pages ago, prospective adoptive parents do not pay to have a child. Social services give them an adoption grant of several thousand pounds to help get them started and give them a savings account etc....effectively selling them the child lol. I know this because my younger brother and sister are adopted as well as the two foster children living with my mum and dad.

As for pets.....someone also mentioned that us vegans are clearing up omnis mess. I have in the past had to clean up a vegans mess for her utter lack of giving a damn for the cat her mother left her to care for when she died. I don't think it is nessicarily (sp?) an omni problem I think that anyone, vegan or not can cause problems when it comes to "pets" etc. Ofcourse it would seem less likely in the more compassionate, however I know omnis who cherish the dogs in their life like their own children. (Then go and sit and eat pig for dinner but that is speciesism for you!)

I love Roxy (the cat lol) so much and tell her so every single day and I would do anything to keep her safe, well fed and happy no matter what the cost to me or my bank balance. I've said previously that if people were to stop breeding and start taking care of the excess animals and gradually decrease the population of "pets" then this would be a good thing but while there are animals that need caring for I will care for them.

[Roxy]

If it says so in the contract and you/they have signed it they can basically do what they like! I'm quite adept at dealing with troublesome landlords and housemates lol!

Not necessarilly. I used to be a property manager in Australia a while back. We could put whatever we wanted in our contracts but we didn't have a leg to stand on when it came to enforcing things, IF they weren't in accordance with the Residential Tenancies Law. For example, charging someone 100 bucks a day for keeping a pet wouldn't be able to be enforced, because it's not in the Residential Tenancies law. There were other ways to deal with tenants who had pets. If something like that went to court, the magistrate would just laugh it out the door.

[emzy1985]

Ah yes but this is England and the government hates us all lol

[Roxy]

Oh right lol, so it's a bit like the USA then?

[missbettie]

If the reasons aren't too personal, I wouldn't mind knowing why you got evicted. We're not allowed to keep "pets" either in our apartment building, but of course, we have Shiloh.

Was your cat noisy, or excessively destructive or something?

I know someone whose lease says that they are not allowed to keep a "pet" in their apartment and if they do, and they get found out, they are fined $100 per day until they, or the pet leaves

It was in our contract to the apartments however there were several other tenants that had cats and even dogs. So one of my roomates ex-girlfriend who was living with us at the time asked the manager if it would be okay if she brought her cat in. He said it shouldn't be a problem just make sure the kitty doesn't destroy anything in the apartment. So she brought her own cat in. A few months later I was at a "friends" house and their cat just had a litter . There were just giving the kittens away to random people not really caring where they were going to, they just wanted to get rid of them, i kinda put up a stink about it...and then stole the smallest most pitaful kitten... Since the manager of our apartment let everyone have a cat i didn't think it would be a big deal, then several months went by and the other girl that lived with us left and took her cat with her obviously and everything was fine. Then the actual owners of the building started making upgrades on the grounds and in the common areas and even raised our rent! it wasn't long after that, that we got an eviction notice on our door, more so a note "get rid of your cat, or leave" more or less anyway. I started looking for a new place....Also 9 other people were being evicted for their pets. oh well, at least I still have my kitty girl.

[snivelingchild]

If we keep 'companion animals' ourselves, but tell ourselves that it is OK because we are treating them better than omni pet-owners, we will just get into an "Oh no you don't, Oh yes we do!" competition with the omnis, which isn't going to convince anybody.

I don't fully understand this. I love onmi's taking care of animals. I just want the pet trade abandoned. Most people I know adopt.

My opinions just come from simple observations. There are tons of stray cats in my area. I find them dead, sick, torn apart, too skinny, covered in mange, cold, scared, and just unhappy seeming far far more often than I observe that in my own cats. My cats live longer and seem happier. Also, on the supjet of natural, domestic cats and dogs are detrimental to local ecosystems. If we didn't keep them as companions, they would be in our ecosystems more. I don't see why giving them an unnatural life is a bad thing. Our lives are terribly unnatural. Well, natural in the sense that nature evolved us to decide to live like this, but DNA and evolved tendancies don't rule our lives, certainly.

I could not even concieve of sterilizing all companion animals to die the species out. I think sterilization is a necessary evil. The surgery itself can be dreadfully dangerous for certain animals, and terrifying and damaging. I would never give an animal an unnecessary surgery. If the domestic cat population was crazily low, and there were lots of people looking to take care of animals, I would let my animals mate if they saw fit to. I think it's sad that we deny them this, and like I said I do it only because I think the damage done is less than adding more cats to the world.

[boatsteem1]

Maybe this has been covered already, but how many of you are actually feeding your cats and dogs vegan food continously?

I'm looking for answers from both you who do and you who don't.

[emmy]

Maybe this has been covered already, but how many of you are actually feeding your cats and dogs vegan food continously?

I'm looking for answers from both you who do and you who don't.

We don't feed our cat vegan food. He has normal stuff. It's pretty gross to sort out, but my feelings about it are that cats are designed to eat meat. They are carniverous animals. So it seems unfair to impose a herbivorous diet on them. They wouldn't eat plants outside; they'd kill birds and so on. They are different to humans in that as far as I know they need meat.

As for keeping pets in general...I don't agree with the pet shop trade either, but I'd rather keep a cat that I'd rescued than know I'd left it to die.

[Mzee]

This is a very pertinent question, mazatael!

Although I have decided not to have a pet/companion animal, I understand how people can get pleasure from the company of a small furry mammal. But why does it so often have to mean a cat? This must be about the worst choice for a vegan.

Why aren't house rabbits more popular? Naturally vegan themselves, they are intelligent, at least as clean as cats and will use a litter tray. Oh, and they are also cute and fluffy! I did a bit of research into house rabbits; wikipedia has a comprehensive article.

I'm glad to see that you have rescued one, missbettie. I saw the picture on your profile. However, I suppose that you just used that small cage while you composed the picture - a much larger accommodation would be necessary for the times when you weren't able to let it run round your apartment. The wikipedia article gives a link to making a house rabbit condo!

[RubyDuby]

So it seems unfair to impose a herbivorous diet on them.

I think mazataels point is that it is also 'unfair' to the 'food' animals that are being tortured and killed for the domesticated, human-created, animals to eat.

My dogs ONLY get vegan food.

My cats eat regular food. I don't have a clue how to keep a healthy vegan cat.

Having said that, since thinking about this from Mazataels point of view I have this really sad realization that I really should not adopt any more pets once mine have passed.

This is something that is really hard for me, and I would like to hear some more views on the side of keeping pets... I mean real reasons, not just cuz they're cute and we love them.

This is especially difficult because I've been working in kennels/vets/doggie daycares for the past 7+ years and its really the only thing I am qualified to do... and I'm good at it. (pathetic I know, but true). The only way I can think of getting out of this shithole paycheck to paycheck situation is to someday own my own kennel. Obviously this is contradictory to these new views towards pet ownership.

I feel so confused and stuck.

[RubyDuby]

I'm glad to see that you have rescued one, missbettie. I saw the picture on your profile. However, I suppose that you just used that small cage while you composed the picture - a much larger accommodation would be necessary for the times when you weren't able to let it run round your apartment. The wikipedia article gives a link to making a house rabbit condo!

it doesnt look like a small cage to me
look at the background.

[emmy]

Ruby - maybe if I knew of a way to feed a cat vegan and make sure it was healthy enough then I would in future. I dunno. I kind of adopted this cat as it comes with my fiance!
I have a rabbit too though, he is lovely He lives with my dad at the moment though, due to the renting situation. I HATE that you can't have pets. I bet I could find plenty of humans who were smellier than animals!

[RubyDuby]

I know what u mean about not knowing how to veganize a cat. some say it cant be done, others swear it can...

[Alphabette]

If keeping companion animals disqualifies me as a vegan, then so be it--I'll just call myself an ovo-lacto vegetarian with added social responsibility.

I have cats. Cats are carnivorous. Therefore, I must buy non-vegan food for my cats, else they will die.

What kind of advocate would I be if I let all my wee ones die of starvation or malnutrition...you CANNOT give a vegan diet to a cat!!

So what shall I do? Set all my cats free and let them fend for themselves, "as God intended"? They'd be dead in a week either run over, eaten or starved to death. What about taking the mass-sterilization route? Sure--let's just kill off all the whales while we're at it. Amazing how some righteously indignant people can declare themselves superior because they do or do not subscribe to the idea of the companion animal.

Quite frankly, I don't trust 'animal lovers' that don't have a companion animal, but that's my own opinion and I wouldn't flog other people with it.

There are more "socially responsible" organic pet food manufacturers out there, so I would definitely suggest doing some research and finding those products. I'm in Canada, so I use Wellness Brand pet foods and there are two organic pet food stores a block away from me, so I think I'm doing everything I can to keep on keeping on, as it were.

I think all one can do is present the arguments and let others choose what path is most ethical for them...your position on veganism is, much like sexuality, found on a continuum--radical v. conservative, left v. right....it's a political argument, nothing more.

And don't try to veganize your cat, people....you're just asking for health issues, increased vet bills, and headaches all around. Not to mention that you're forcing a lifestyle onto another creature that has virtually no say in what happens to it, which is wrong no matter what your position is.

Okay, I've said my peace.

[RubyDuby]

I think all one can do is present the arguments and let others choose what path is most ethical for them...your position on veganism is, much like sexuality, found on a continuum--radical v. conservative, left v. right....it's a political argument, nothing more.

I thought that's what we were doing?

If keeping companion animals disqualifies me as a vegan, then so be it--I'll just call myself an ovo-lacto vegetarian with added social responsibility.

where'd u get the idea that it disqualified u? quote please?
ovo-lacto? u'd start eating eggs and dairy? I'm confused.

Quite frankly, I don't trust 'animal lovers' that don't have a companion animal, but that's my own opinion and I wouldn't flog other people with it.

would u mind explaining why this opinion?

[Alphabette]

I thought that's what we were doing?

There are some vegan folks that clearly denounce those of us who choose to have companion animals. I'm against the exclusion of a population based on arbitrary definitions and semantics, i.e. what makes a vegan a vegan.

where'd u get the idea that it disqualified u? quote please?
ovo-lacto? u'd start eating eggs and dairy? I'm confused.

Sorry--typing without paying attention. Should have read--vegetarian, no eggs, no dairy--I was thinking backwards. And, again, some folks will disqualify you as a vegan if you continue to take honey.


would u mind explaining why this opinion?

An opinion is just that, usually based on experience and knowledge (of whatever level). I have many personal anecdotes regarding so called 'animal lovers' who wouldn't have a cat or dog because "of all the hair", or the "added expense". While a lot of people cannot have companion animals because of their respective living situtations (i.e. no pets clauses--illegal in Canada, no matter what the lease says btw), there are many 'animal lovers' who won't put up with the mess, the bills, the walks, the litter and would trample their own grannies to get those cute little leather shoes--oh, it's okay...they're on SALE!!! The road to hell is laden not with good intentions, but with hypocrisy.

But again, that's my opinion based on my own experience. To say I don't trust animal lovers without pets does not preclude me from trusting them in the future, but a few of you good folks need to step up and introduce yerselves to me, cuz I haven't met you as yet.

[RubyDuby]

An opinion is just that, usually based on experience and knowledge (of whatever level).

precisely why I asked!

I have many personal anecdotes regarding so called 'animal lovers' who wouldn't have a cat or dog because "of all the hair", or the "added expense". While a lot of people cannot have companion animals because of their respective living situtations (i.e. no pets clauses--illegal in Canada, no matter what the lease says btw), there are many 'animal lovers' who won't put up with the mess, the bills, the walks, the litter and would trample their own grannies to get those cute little leather shoes--oh, it's okay...they're on SALE!!!

"animal lovers" who eat animals are even more funny.
I think though, if u choose to not have pets bc of what their overpopulation has caused them, and bc it encourages people to purchase breeds, then in this case it would not be hypocritical.

The road to hell is laden not with good intentions, but with hypocrisy.

I have trouble with the word hypocrisy. It's damn near impossible to not be found a hypocrit in one way or another if u have any morals at all. Saying u believe animal lovers should have pets could even be seen as hypocritical.

but a few of you good folks need to step up and introduce yerselves to me, cuz I haven't met you as yet.

I hope you don't mean you're offended bc I missed your intro thread? I mean, you'll see how hard those can be to keep up with.

eta: cute name btw

[Alphabette]

I hope you don't mean you're offended bc I missed your intro thread? I mean, you'll see how hard those can be to keep up with.

Not at all!! And yes, I totally see what you mean!! lol

I guess it all boils down to a case of 'letter of the law' and 'spirit of the law'...I'm more inclined to take a 'spirit of the letter of the law' point of view, I guess!

[Mahk]

Hi Alphabette, I'm Mahk. I'm an animal lover and don't live with any animals, but you can trust me!

I grew up in the country and had cats and dogs in the house when I was a child. They were free to come and go as they please using a catdoor and or pawing at the door to tell us they wanted to be let out or in, but now living in the concrete jungle of Boston, the concept of having to walk them seems quite alien to me coming from my childhood experience of how it all worked in country life.

Also in my mind was that they were free to runaway from home any time they wanted and the fact that they didn't proved to me that they enjoyed being with us. Does that all make any sense?

[missbettie]

This is a very pertinent question, mazatael!

Although I have decided not to have a pet/companion animal, I understand how people can get pleasure from the company of a small furry mammal. But why does it so often have to mean a cat? This must be about the worst choice for a vegan.

Why aren't house rabbits more popular? Naturally vegan themselves, they are intelligent, at least as clean as cats and will use a litter tray. Oh, and they are also cute and fluffy! I did a bit of research into house rabbits; wikipedia has a comprehensive article.

I'm glad to see that you have rescued one, missbettie. I saw the picture on your profile. However, I suppose that you just used that small cage while you composed the picture - a much larger accommodation would be necessary for the times when you weren't able to let it run round your apartment. The wikipedia article gives a link to making a house rabbit condo!

Its actually a fairly large cage. When I let her out in my back yard I make sure it is open at all times that way if she gets scared she can run back in it, we have a fair amount of other animals that would see bunni as food . I only let her play outside however when I can watch her because I just don't feel that comfortable. Typically she is inside, as a "house rabbit" she does have a cage inside but she pretty much just sleeps in it. Rabbits need somewhere they know they can retreat to that no one else can bother them its like a comfort zone. My advice to anyone that has a house rabbit though is to get plastic hoses to go around electrical cords! otherwise, well you know what will happen!

Thanks for your concern Mzee but I assure you my bunni is happy healthy and able to run around!

[Alphabette]

Hi Alphabette, I'm Mahk. I'm an animal lover and don't live with any animals, but you can trust me!

I grew up in the country and had cats and dogs in the house when I was a child. They were free to come and go as they please using a catdoor and or pawing at the door to tell us they wanted to be let out or in, but now living in the concrete jungle of Boston, the concept of having to walk them seems quite alien to me coming from my childhood experience of how it all worked in country life.

Also in my mind was that they were free to runaway from home any time they wanted and the fact that they didn't proved to me that they enjoyed being with us. Does that all make any sense?

Makes perfect sense...pleased to meet you!!!

[Roxy]

[ (i.e. no pets clauses--illegal in Canada, no matter what the lease says btw

Hi from Vancouver Do you mean that if you have a lease that says "no pets" that the landlord can't enforce that clause? Or do you mean it's illegal to keep pets?

Sorry - I'm just asking because I have a cat that we rescued back in July and my lease says "no pets".

[Alphabette]

Hi from Vancouver Do you mean that if you have a lease that says "no pets" that the landlord can't enforce that clause? Or do you mean it's illegal to keep pets?

Sorry - I'm just asking because I have a cat that we rescued back in July and my lease says "no pets".

Hi, Roxy....no worries, you can keep your cat.

Many years ago (I can't remember how many, exactly) it was perfectly legal to enforce the 'no pets' clause--a little old lady took her landlords to court as they were trying to evict her because she had a cat. This woman was a complete shut in and had no other companionship. She won her case and they changed the law.

No matter what your lease says, you can no longer be evicted if you have a pet--unless said pet can be conclusively proven to be threatening to others, causing damage to property, or causing some other sort of (major) disturbance. From what I understand, a landlord can only make conditions on the species of pet you own--i.e. no dogs. But even in that case, they can't evict you if you acquire one after the lease is signed.

That being said, many cities have their own bylaws that regulate the numbers of pets, etc. so it would be prudent to check Vancouver bylaws to make sure there isn't a licensing fee or something else you have to pay (I'm in London, ON--there's a limit of two cats per home...I have four....and they must all be licensed....none of mine are. I'd like to see them try to enforce that one...lol).

Check the Tenant Protection Act for the exact wording, then go tell your landlord that you have a cat...it's the polite thing to do.

[Roxy]

Thanks Alphabette. I just had a look a the RTO website for BC and I found a fact sheet regarding pets. In an around-about way, it basically says what you have said.

Still though, as much as I like our landlord, I don't feel comfortable approaching him and telling him we have a cat. He is still entitled to put our rent up by $45 month if he wants to. I just don't want to invite trouble if I don't have to

[Alphabette]

Still though, as much as I like our landlord, I don't feel comfortable approaching him and telling him we have a cat. He is still entitled to put our rent up by $45 month if he wants to. I just don't want to invite trouble if I don't have to

Wise, is she, who takes the prudent path.

[Roxy]

Thanks

Just want to be careful, that's all.

[Jippia]

Missbettie, how nice to know there is another one here with a happy house rabbit. We have one, too. I do not know whether it is safe to let him run in the living room when we are working, but he can go out as soon as the first one comes home. He loves to jump on the couch to sit next to you and get a cuddle. He is a dwarf lop and I have never tamed a rabbit so quickly. He is very curious and he loves his guinea pig neighbours, too. Your bunny looks very sweet.

Mirjam

[eclectic_one]

I have house bunnies too I've bunny-proofed the living room, so they are usually out when I'm home. When I'm not home, they stay in their extra large cage which they really seem to love. They are very smart and have big personalities

[Jippia]

I totally agree. I had seven rabbits in a big shed when I was a teenager. They had a 50 cm square hutch each and a 150 cm play-pen outside. They could hop in and out as they pleased. Each had a personality of its own. Our previous rabbit Jip (hence the screen name) was totally different from Jasper and I am sure that the one after Jasper will be different, too. But I will certainly opt for a dwarf lop male again. I have totally fallen in love with this breed. Same goes for tessels and shelties when it comes to guinea pigs.

[missbettie]

Thank you I always promised myself I wouldn't get another rabbit, just because I didn't want the responsibility but I had to rescue her, I had no choice. She is hands down the nicest bunni i have ever had the pleasure to get to know. Maybe it is because I rescued her instead of buying her from a pet store?

Unfortunatly she has learned to jump on our bed, now my kitty has no where to hide from her! lol

[RubyDuby]

sounds a little backwards! how funny

[missbettie]

the cats are terrified of her but then again she is pretty big, and those hind legs....jeeeeeze....

[boatsteem1]

Hi Alphabette, I'm Mahk. I'm an animal lover and don't live with any animals, but you can trust me!

I grew up in the country and had cats and dogs in the house when I was a child. They were free to come and go as they please using a catdoor and or pawing at the door to tell us they wanted to be let out or in, but now living in the concrete jungle of Boston, the concept of having to walk them seems quite alien to me coming from my childhood experience of how it all worked in country life.

Also in my mind was that they were free to runaway from home any time they wanted and the fact that they didn't proved to me that they enjoyed being with us. Does that all make any sense?

Actually animals follow food. If you feed them they will stay with you. This goes especially for cats because they don't care for company. If you don't feed them they don't care about you. Dogs are different in that they are social animals. Dogs will probably like you even if you don't feed them. But cats don't really care about you unless you are their source of food.

About letting dogs and cats run free. Many species of wild bird are threatened with extinction because of, especially, domestic cats. The domestic cats also kill a lot of other small animals that should have been the prey of other carnivores. Domestic cats are not natural in any part of the world, but especially not in America. Their wild ancestors live in Africa, central Europe and southern and eastern Asia.

In Scotland, and in other parts of Europe, but Scotland in particular, wild cats are being threatened by cross breeding with domestic cats. The wild cats are outnumbered by atleast 1 000 to 1, probably much, much more. The scottish wild cat is likely to go extinct or atleast not excist as a true species.

Domestic cats are different from their wild cousins by having been separated for 10 000 years in staying with humans. They have over this course of time developed a smaller brain, various fur patterns and colours, and probably other characteristics as well.

[gogs67]

In Scotland, and in other parts of Europe, but Scotland in particular, wild cats are being threatened by cross breeding with domestic cats. The wild cats are outnumbered by atleast 1 000 to 1, probably much, much more. The scottish wild cat is likely to go extinct or atleast not excist as a true species.

.

The Scottish Wild Cat numbers in the low hundreds now and may have as little as 10 years left before extinction.There is a captive breeding program (which i know does not sit well with some vegans,I see no problem in that however,if there is no other way to re stock numbers) but even it is fighting a losing battle against poisoning,traps and road kill!!
http://www.scottishwildcats.co.uk/

[boatsteem1]

I think mazataels point is that it is also 'unfair' to the 'food' animals that are being tortured and killed for the domesticated, human-created, animals to eat.

Kind of.

I'm curious about this because a lot of people seem to care about their pets only for the sake of caring, without even thinking of the hundreds or thousands of animals required to feed a carnivorous pet. They say they "care" about animals but in the end they end up killing up to a thousand, or more, other animals to feed their dog.

Citing a text from the scientific study quoted below: "Using the energetic model, we calculated that a. 2.7 kg free-ranging cat needs to consume 328 g of food. per day (minimum 190 g day. –1. , maximum 452 g day".

328 grams of food per day means 119 720 grams of meat per year. Domestic cats usually live in the range of 15 to 20 years. Lets take 15 years for an example. A domestic cat living for 15 years will eat 1 795 800 grams of meat in its lifetime. That is 1 795,8 kg of meat. This means slighly more than two huge 800 kg cattle, 36 pigs, 1 330 chickens, something like 10 000 average fishes or 35 916 chicken chicks.

Guess how much your non-vegan dog eats?

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Adding something to my post above this one, here is one study on the effects of domestic cats on wild populations: "The effect of feral cats on the population viability of black-vented shearwaters (Puffinus opisthomelas) on Natividad Island, Mexico":
http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi...67943002002263

My point is that a lot of wild animals are threatened by pets, and especially cats.

[Holly78]

That is very true and is why many vegans do feed their companion animals a vegan or at least vegetarian diet, provided it is suitable for their needs.

I know that I personally would feel uncomfortable having companion animals that *need* meat (e.g ferrets) for this reason. However I do find myself thinking that if everyone felt like I did - what would happen to the rescue ferrets that need homes? Difficult.

[Mahk]

This goes especially for cats because they don't care for company.

I think some cats enjoy human companionship. My cats would jump on laps, would purr with delight when petted, sleep on top of you or at least on the bed at times. I think it depends on the cat.

Some rambling thoughts that I'm not sure how I stand on but here goes:

If we are allowed to keep pets we are allowed to have cats.
If we are allowed to keep pets they should have the freedom to come and go as they please, at least in country life ().
If they are carnivores (which cats are) they should be expected to act on their instincts and attack birds. If I learn how to speak "cat" I would tell it to get a book on endangered birds and to leave them alone, but until that day comes I think my cat should be allowed to venture outside. You don't?

Carnivores hunt, and I think they have the right to and the right to be. We have a choice in diet, carnivores don't.

Allowing my dogs to go outside and not the cats would be speciesism, no?

These are my principals and if you don't like them I have others. (-Groucho Marx)

[RubyDuby]

first of all, we really need a speciesism thread! but Mahk, u already made a very valid point that we are all speciesists whether we want to admit it or not.

My cats stay inside, because I'm afraid they would get hit by a car or stolen, or something evil happen to them (my neighbors caused the disappearance of my cats as a kid ) That being said, every once in awhile one of my cats runs outside and I have never seen him happier. He rubs his body all over the grass, jumps in the trees, runs as fast as he can... it breaks my heart.

As far as being "allowed" we are allowed to do what we please. I think it's more of a question about what we think is right, and that is where it gets tricky. I see why one would choose to not house a companion animal that NEEDS meat to thrive, especially if that particular animal was created by humans to begin with.

I've been thinking more about what I said about not rescuing more pets after mine have passed... I'm not sure I can go through with it. I see rescues every day and have a need to help them. Ideally I would like to eventually own a kennel that feeds only vegetarian dog food, and use the profits to fund a rescue... but I doubt that would be successful.

[missbettie]

my cat loves to be around other people, as does bunni. as soon as i walk through the door the come rushing at me meowing and jumping, we are a humorous sight...

[prawnsize]

Mmmmm - all very interesting. My dog and cat were rescued from the street, one from Portugal, one from Spain - there was no way I was going to leave them there to die or turn in to strays who produce more strays. The fact is that domestic animals exist so we do what we can to feed and care for them in the most responsible way we can.

[snivelingchild]

Maybe this has been covered already, but how many of you are actually feeding your cats and dogs vegan food continously?

I'm looking for answers from both you who do and you who don't.

I feed both my dogs 100% vegan food. I used to feed my five cats 100% vegan food, until I found that the little one was prone to urinary disorders. This needed a surgery and many medications. Since I dare any one of you to find a way to make one cat eat a different food than everyone else, all of them are now fed an organic chicken-based kibble. They are recovered now, but are still in the after-effects of stress (moving) and many different sicknesses (aside from the food-related one) I am keeping them on this for a while more. Once I feel comfortable that their systems have biult back up their strength, I will try a mix of vegan food with chicken food.

I understand that eveyone's situation is different, but I cannot stand people in my area who let their cats out. I see a cat on the road more days than I do not. It boils my blood. I saw a flattened kitten just a few houses down today. What's worse is people do not put collars OR identification with tags on the animals, so I cannot tell if an animal is stray or pet, lost or in it's neighborhood, or who to contact if it is injured. Same for dogs, too.

I just base what I do on what I see. I see the strays ion my neighborhood constantly scared for their lives as they hide in the sewers, eat the dead birds of the neighborhood, are often very skinny, and find their kittens in the road as I do. Yes, I put my misery in the slaughterhouse where I cannot see rather than adding more strays to the area, or putting them down. There is percieved misery in my interpretations of both scenerios, therefore I choose the one I cannot see. I am human and I suffer too.