View Poll Results: Which of these statements about 'pets' do you agree in? (Multiple Choice Poll)

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  • Veganism means not using animals for food, clothing, entertainment or any other purpose. Keeping a 'pet' = "other purpose"

    55 16.22%
  • I'm against puppy mills and commercial breeding of animals

    254 74.93%
  • I'm all for keeping rescued animals or animals that otherwise need me, but against keeping other 'pets'

    181 53.39%
  • I'm against keeping animals in captivity, which is why I prefer not to keep 'pets' captivated

    59 17.40%
  • I prefer not to make decisions about animals' social life, sex life, toilet habits, death date or or anything else.

    49 14.45%
  • As long as a 'pet' can freely roam around, but doesn't escape, I don't see anything wrong with keeping it

    93 27.43%
  • Keeping meat eating animals means either supporting the meat industry (when buying 'pet' food) or giving them plant food, which isn't natural for them

    86 25.37%
  • I'm not OK with keeping animals that needs to be caged

    140 41.30%
  • Unless we make all domesticated/institutionalized animals extinct (which I don't want), someone needs to take care of them

    144 42.48%
  • I would like to see the end of humans keeping all animals

    51 15.04%
  • I would like to see the end of humans keeping all animals, even if this means human extinction of certain animals

    36 10.62%
  • Regulations re. keeping animals need to be stricter than they are today

    193 56.93%
  • I disagree with selling animals for profit

    235 69.32%
  • Humans + 'pets' = non-obligatory mutualism

    54 15.93%
  • Non-obligatory mutualism? It's called The Stockholm syndrome!

    15 4.42%
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Thread: "Pets" - Which of these statements do you agree with?

  1. #651
    RubyDuby
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    Default Re: 'Pets': Which of these statements do you agree with?

    Quote harpy View Post
    Even quite young cats of about a year old or less get dumped - the CP lady reckoned some people just sling them out and get another kitten Great message that must give to their children, if they've got'em.

    Its so sad how quickly the litters get snatched up and then dumped at shelters. It gives the wrong impression to the person who let the litter happen... like its ok bc theres such a demand.
    Each snowflake in an avalanche pleads not guilty.

  2. #652
    BlackCats
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    Default Re: 'Pets': Which of these statements do you agree with?

    Quote harpy View Post
    Even quite young cats of about a year old or less get dumped - the CP lady reckoned some people just sling them out and get another kitten Great message that must give to their children, if they've got'em.
    (That's so terrible. I think the stray cat we took in was just left when the owners moved house and they just left him behind in the street like some rubbish to be collected.)

    I know what you mean Ruby, I sometimes feel like a spoilsport trying to bring everyone down when someone is excited about something and then I say why I can't support it because it contradicts my ethics. It's really hard to say things without sounding like you are lecturing isn't it?

  3. #653

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    Cool Re: 'Pets': Which of these statements do you agree with?

    Hi

    I think that in an ideal world animals would not be 'owned' by people but as you know it is not an ideal world. As dogs and cats are domesticated animals I can think of no better home than a vegan home.

    I am lucky enough to share my life with two rescue dogs and two rescus cats. Pip, the eldest cat is now nineteen. She came to me at the age of one after being badly treated as a baby. Sable my youngest cat is nine and deaf. Both are house cats and from what I can tell extremely happy. They bring so much joy into the life of my children and I.

    Poppy and Crackle are both rescue English Springer Spaniels. Both were owned by a gamekeeper but were not wanted as 'gunshy'. They take me to the beach every morning and night for a run.

    Some of you may not agree but when we are in wooded areas I put soft muzzles on them. If I did not they would, as I have learnt from experience catch and kill rabbits, birds etc.

    I do struggle with this but I also know that I am saving lives. They accept the muzzles easily and it is really no different to having my children hold my hand when crossing a busy road or not letting them stick a pea up their nose.

  4. #654
    cobweb
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    Default Re: 'Pets': Which of these statements do you agree with?

    hi Twinkletoes, your companion animals sound lovely, and you are lucky (as i am!) to live in a beautiful place there in Lossiemouth.

    I totally understand about the muzzles, i used to have a retired racing Greyhound and had to do the same with her.

  5. #655
    baffled harpy's Avatar
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    Default Re: 'Pets': Which of these statements do you agree with?

    Quote RubyDuby View Post
    Is there a nice way to approach the subject after somebody has done the deed?
    No, I think it's only really any use if you get an opportunity when they're still thinking about it.

    The fact that you air your views when the opportunity arises probably does some good even if it doesn't seem to - constant dripping and all that.

    ETA hello twinkletoes. 19 eh - that's very good for a cat!

  6. #656
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    Default Re: 'Pets': Which of these statements do you agree with?

    Quote RationalVegan74 View Post
    We always have to interfere with everything. We can't just watch and learn. Nature and its animals are none of our business to interfere with; if we were reasonable, we could move through the world without making any significant difference at all. (This would mean not breeding like a plague, too.) I'm sorry, but owning a pet seems almost indescribably selfish to me. Even if you lengthen its life, you've just extended the length of its sentence to an unnatural, captive existence, and all the consequences that existence has for them and everything else. I think that if a person truly loves animals, they'll have the personal willpower to leave them alone!
    Aside from disagreeing with most of what you said i don't have a clue what you're meaning by that bit? It's a bad thing to give an animal a loving home instead of it being put down?
    Disobedience is the true foundation of liberty!

  7. #657
    Pilaf
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    Default Re: 'Pets': Which of these statements do you agree with?

    While I understand it's theoretically an ethical thing to adopt and take care of a companion animal like a dog or a cat, we must keep in mind that many of these animals live well over ten years, and eat the flesh of other animals like fish and cows every day of their lives. So for every day they are alive, other animals die for their sakes. And don't the very principles of veganism dictate that no one species of kind of animal is more worthy of life than another?

    IF this is the case, shouldn't we practice the principle of least harm and kill the fewest amount of animals possible? And isn't this only possible through the systematic and ethical euthanasia and neutering of the species whose lives, through an unfortunate flaw in the design of our society, cause humans to murder thousands of other animals to feed them?

    Just a thought. I mean the cold, hard reality is that every time you feed little fido, you've given money to the guy who cuts Wilber's throat every day, and for a lifetime of companionship with little Fido, over a thousand Wilbers will die. And to me that is just unacceptable. The pigs are not lesser animals than the dogs. Ideally we'd kill neither but if ethically ending the life of one dog can save a thousand pigs, the principle of least harm would dictate...well. I won't finish. I've put the thought out there.

  8. #658
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    Default Re: 'Pets': Which of these statements do you agree with?

    Quote Pilaf View Post

    IF this is the case, shouldn't we practice the principle of least harm and kill the fewest amount of animals possible? And isn't this only possible through the systematic and ethical euthanasia and neutering of the species whose lives, through an unfortunate flaw in the design of our society, cause humans to murder thousands of other animals to feed them?

    Just a thought. I mean the cold, hard reality is that every time you feed little fido, you've given money to the guy who cuts Wilber's throat every day, and for a lifetime of companionship with little Fido, over a thousand Wilbers will die. And to me that is just unacceptable. The pigs are not lesser animals than the dogs. Ideally we'd kill neither but if ethically ending the life of one dog can save a thousand pigs, the principle of least harm would dictate...well. I won't finish. I've put the thought out there.
    Hi Pilaf,

    I agree with most of what you said. However, dogs can easily be vegan and I can see this being a compromise in keeping an animal that needs a place to live and someone to take care of him/her and not giving money to the meat industry. Cats are quite a bit trickier though, as I am not convinced that vegan diet does them any favours...

    However, in the "principle of least harm" (and completely off topic so PM me if you want to discuss further) would this not also apply to organ donation?

  9. #659
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    Default Re: 'Pets': Which of these statements do you agree with?

    Quote Pilaf View Post
    The pigs are not lesser animals than the dogs. Ideally we'd kill neither but if ethically ending the life of one dog can save a thousand pigs, the principle of least harm would dictate...well. I won't finish. I've put the thought out there.
    I'm not sure it would directly save the other animals' lives, because as far as I'm aware petfood is usually made out of bits of animals that can't be fed to humans - do you know of any instances where animals are killed specifically to make cat and dog food?

    This page is quite interesting re European "pet food"

    http://www.pet-food-choice.co.uk/pet...ngredients.htm

    - doesn't make it clear who the author is though.

    I agree with the point about giving money to the meat industry though as selling by-products like pet foods obviously helps it to stay profitable. I do feed my cats some vegan food (which they like) and if I were confident that it's an adequate diet I'd give them more.

  10. #660
    BlackCats
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    Default Re: 'Pets': Which of these statements do you agree with?

    Quote Pilaf View Post
    So for every day they are alive, other animals die for their sakes. And don't the very principles of veganism dictate that no one species of kind of animal is more worthy of life than another?
    IF this is the case, shouldn't we practice the principle of least harm and kill the fewest amount of animals possible? And isn't this only possible through the systematic and ethical euthanasia and neutering of the species whose lives, through an unfortunate flaw in the design of our society, cause humans to murder thousands of other animals to feed them?
    I can definitely see what you are saying Pilaf and it is something I have thought about and I would love to see an end to breeders and see all existing cats/ dogs neutered by law maybe. I would even like to see the world without any companion animals eventually although I have 6 animals myself. I don't agree that they should be euthanised though.

    (I think you could argue that omni humans should be euthanised in this way as they do much more damage to other species, which I'm not advocating obviously.)

  11. #661
    RubyDuby
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    Default Re: 'Pets': Which of these statements do you agree with?

    I also see what you're saying pilaf, but in this reality we live in euthanizing those in shelters is not going to stop people from continuing to breed. The only decisions we actually have in front of us to make that i can see are 1.) whether we choose to adopt or leave the situation to itself, 2.) if we choose to adopt, what we choose to feed them and 3.) getting involved in trying make breeding and spay/neuter laws intact. (something i regretfully know nothing about)
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  12. #662
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    Default Re: 'Pets': Which of these statements do you agree with?

    Quote RubyDuby View Post
    I also see what you're saying pilaf, but in this reality we live in euthanizing those in shelters is not going to stop people from continuing to breed. The only decisions we actually have in front of us to make that i can see are 1.) whether we choose to adopt or leave the situation to itself, 2.) if we choose to adopt, what we choose to feed them and 3.) getting involved in trying make breeding and spay/neuter laws intact. (something i regretfully know nothing about)
    Well the general concensus seems to be that
    puppy farms and commercial breeding is wrong
    selling animals for profit is wrong
    regulations need to be stricter for animal ownership
    keeping rescue animals is fine
    and
    unless domesticated animals are made extinct (which is not an agreeable option) then someone needs to take care of them!


    That's the top 5 answers on the poll!


    And i think in the UK ( i may be wrong though) that all cats and dogs rescued are spayed or neutered!
    Disobedience is the true foundation of liberty!

  13. #663
    BlackCats
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    Quote gogs67 View Post
    Well the general concensus seems to be that
    puppy farms and commercial breeding is wrong
    selling animals for profit is wrong
    regulations need to be stricter for animal ownership
    keeping rescue animals is fine
    and
    unless domesticated animals are made extinct (which is not an agreeable option) then someone needs to take care of them!
    That's the top 5 answers on the poll!
    And i think in the UK ( i may be wrong though) that all cats and dogs rescued are spayed or neutered!
    It seems though that some vegans are against keeping even rescue animals at all though and think they should be killed rather than being kept in a human home, if I am understanding some people right? I'm not trying to start an argument btw, I just find it an odd point of view, although I can see the logic behind it.

    (I think all rescue animals are neutered because that was mentioned on a website I looked at, the fee you pay for them means that they are unable to breed and that they are microchipped already.)

  14. #664
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    Default Re: 'Pets': Which of these statements do you agree with?

    Quote BlackCats View Post
    It seems though that some vegans are against keeping even rescue animals at all though and think they should be killed rather than being kept in a human home, if I am understanding some people right? I'm not trying to start an argument btw, I just find it an odd point of view, although I can see the logic behind it.

    (I think all rescue animals are neutered because that was mentioned on a website I looked at, the fee you pay for them means that they are unable to breed and that they are microchipped already.)
    It's not a view i've ever come across in person but then the world would be a bit boring if we all thought the same!
    EVERY vegan i know (and that's a good few) has rescue animals of some sort in their house. Maybe we are none of us vegans?
    Disobedience is the true foundation of liberty!

  15. #665
    RubyDuby
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    Default Re: 'Pets': Which of these statements do you agree with?

    Quote gogs67 View Post
    Well the general concensus seems to be that
    puppy farms and commercial breeding is wrong
    selling animals for profit is wrong
    regulations need to be stricter for animal ownership
    keeping rescue animals is fine
    and
    unless domesticated animals are made extinct (which is not an agreeable option) then someone needs to take care of them!


    That's the top 5 answers on the poll!


    And i think in the UK ( i may be wrong though) that all cats and dogs rescued are spayed or neutered!

    I'm not really sure what your response had to do with the point I was making. Maybe you didn't mean to quote me or maybe there is a misunderstanding on one of our parts.

    My point was in regards to decisions we have to make in life. Actual things that we have the power over doing... I wasn't talking about which boxes were clicked on the poll.
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  16. #666
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    Default Re: 'Pets': Which of these statements do you agree with?

    Quote RubyDuby View Post
    My point was in regards to decisions we have to make in life. Actual things that we have the power over doing... I wasn't talking about which boxes were clicked on the poll.
    I think I see your point Ruby - regardless of theoretical beliefs our practical options are limited to the ones you listed?

    I suppose I attempt to limit the harm caused by my cats by avoiding feeding them on factory farmed products as far as poss, and by giving them a certain amount of vegan stuff. If they had gone to a different home that might not have been the case.

    (Of course, I could have limited the collateral damage even more by adopting them and then having them immediately put down, but that might not have gone down too well with the rescue place when they came round to check up on their fosterlings )

  17. #667
    BlackCats
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    Default Re: 'Pets': Which of these statements do you agree with?

    Quote harpy View Post
    (Of course, I could have limited the collateral damage even more by adopting them and then having them immediately put down, but that might not have gone down too well with the rescue place when they came round to check up on their fosterlings )
    (I think they might have had a problem with it. )

    I just think people that have the view that pets are better off dead are completely disregarding any "right" to life that these animals have. I think utilitarianism can lead to some dubious moral judgements.

    (sorry to keep going on about it.)

  18. #668
    Mahk
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    Default Re: 'Pets': Which of these statements do you agree with?

    Quote Pilaf View Post
    I mean the cold, hard reality is that every time you feed little fido, you've given money to the guy who cuts Wilber's throat every day, and for a lifetime of companionship with little Fido, over a thousand Wilbers will die. And to me that is just unacceptable. The pigs are not lesser animals than the dogs. Ideally we'd kill neither but if ethically ending the life of one dog can save a thousand pigs, the principle of least harm would dictate...well.
    Since all animals are equal, including humans, what about replacing the words "little fido" with "your next door, meat-eating neighbor" and dog with the word "human". Should we euthanize our next door neighbors under this logic too?

    [Not that I'm trying to put any ideas into your head]
    To me the answer is clear: no.

  19. #669
    RubyDuby
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    Default Re: 'Pets': Which of these statements do you agree with?

    Quote harpy View Post
    I think I see your point Ruby - regardless of theoretical beliefs our practical options are limited to the ones you listed?
    exactly, I see how some people might find logic behind euthanasea, but in reality I'm not so sure it is logical. Like I said, we only have the power to make certain decisions and deciding to euthanize the few we'd have the ability to would not stop the increasing pet population.

    Besides, it just seems wrong.
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  20. #670
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    Default Re: 'Pets': Which of these statements do you agree with?

    Quote BlackCats View Post
    I think utilitarianism can lead to some dubious moral judgements.
    I hadto look that up. but well put.
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  21. #671
    BlackCats
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    Quote RubyDuby View Post
    I hadto look that up. but well put.
    Lol.

  22. #672
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    Default Re: 'Pets': Which of these statements do you agree with?

    Quote BlackCats View Post
    I just think people that have the view that pets are better off dead are completely disregarding any "right" to life that these animals have.
    Yeah, but presumably the cows etc have as much right to life as the cats etc. However I don't think getting rid of cats would necessarily save many cows, in the short to medium term anyway, because the cows aren't being killed specifically to feed the cats.

    OTOH it's possible that if the meat industry didn't have the pet food revenue coming in then it would not be able to sell meat for human consumption at a viable price - not sure about that, they'd probably sell the catfood to foreigners or turn it into biofuel or something

  23. #673
    RubyDuby
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    Default Re: 'Pets': Which of these statements do you agree with?

    I was under the impression that the meat industry is already subsidized by the government bc it is so inefficient already. I'm not sue that losing any extra revenue from the pet food industry would make a difference either. The gov't would probably just hand over more cash cuz we need to meat!
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  24. #674
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    Default Re: 'Pets': Which of these statements do you agree with?

    Quote harpy View Post
    Yeah, but presumably the cows etc have as much right to life as the cats etc. However I don't think getting rid of cats would necessarily save many cows, in the short to medium term anyway, because the cows aren't being killed specifically to feed the cats.
    Yes exactly. One day hopefully everyone would be forced by law to get their pets neutered than cats/ dogs would eventually die out I suppose but in the interim I think people have a duty to take care of the animals.

    (We are all arguing on the same side I think. Where are all the people to disagree with us?)

  25. #675
    RubyDuby
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    Default Re: 'Pets': Which of these statements do you agree with?

    **cue mahk.










    ** only bc mahk likes to expose all sides of an argument.
    please take no offense!
    Last edited by RubyDuby; Sep 18th, 2008 at 08:20 PM. Reason: added explanation.
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  26. #676
    Mahk
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    Quote harpy View Post
    However I don't think getting rid of cats would necessarily save many cows, in the short to medium term anyway, because the cows aren't being killed specifically to feed the cats.(
    That can be a slippery slope though. Leather isn't their primary product either but certainly you wouldn't suggest it is OK for us to wear leather, right?

    cue mahk...only bc mahk likes to expose all sides of an argument.
    please take no offense!
    Finally, someone who gets me.

    I don't know anything about gov. subsidizing; not my field. All I know is that not a single part of the cow goes to waste:
    - "good meat" becomes human consumable steak
    - "spent" dairy cows become hamburger
    - organs for cat/dog food etc
    - fetus become suede and rennet for cheese
    - offspring become veal
    - hide becomes leather
    - stomachs are sold at my local Asian food super market
    - bones/hooves/tendons/ligaments get boiled to extract gelatin used in some brands of guacamole here in the US
    - bones are then turned into bone chip as a fertilizer and or filtering compound
    - some bones (although not US or EU) are put in kilns and baked to a char to make bone char for filtering sugar, water, Vaseline (which would otherwise be brown) and as a common dye for certain inks and paints.

    Edit to add: left over fat goes to the hidden "rendering industry" which turns it to purified tallow to make soap used to wash dishes at many "vegan" restaurants, vehicle tires, and many chemicals to make American bread.

    Edit to add some more: oops, I think I missed my cue and was supposed to bring up a contrary opinion. Oh well I'll leave my post anyways. OK how about this: Maybe we should kill off all animal life on Earth, including humans, and that way there would be no more "suffering". [joke]

  27. #677
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    Default Re: 'Pets': Which of these statements do you agree with?

    Quote Mahk View Post
    Leather isn't their primary product either but certainly you wouldn't suggest it is OK for us to wear leather, right?
    No, but there are are acceptable alternatives to leather whereas it's debatable whether there are acceptable alternatives to meat-based catfood (and boy, have we debated it )

    I agree with you that there is somewhat of a parallel though, which is why I wrote the second paragraph about pet food subsidising the meat industry.

  28. #678
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    Default Re: 'Pets': Which of these statements do you agree with?

    Quote RubyDuby View Post
    I'm not really sure what your response had to do with the point I was making. Maybe you didn't mean to quote me or maybe there is a misunderstanding on one of our parts.

    My point was in regards to decisions we have to make in life. Actual things that we have the power over doing... I wasn't talking about which boxes were clicked on the poll.
    I was just pointing out that the majority of the folk that have replied over these 16 pages agreed with your way of thinking!
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  29. #679
    cobweb
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    Default Re: 'Pets': Which of these statements do you agree with?

    i find this discussion to be bordering on insanity, frankly!

    (a small point, Mahk, there are plenty of vegan detergents available for vegan restaurants, etc!)


    to me the whole issue with 'pets' is the 'fettered friend' thing, the assumption by humans that we have any rights atall over animals. However, clearly humans have been keeping captive/domesticated animals for a long time, and, also clearly, there is a huge problem with 'discarded pets' .

    I have known vegans get shirty with me in the past for working in sanctuaries (as apparently this makes me a kind of cog in the pet 'ownership' wheel, rehoming abandoned animals). Whilst i think it's great to have lofty ideals, as others have said, this is Real Life. In Real Life there are thousands of companion animals roaming the streets, being euthanased, being abused, waiting in animal shelters, and more on waiting lists to go into shelters. These animals need help now. They don't need to wait until we decide whether it may be hypocritical for us to feed and keep them .

    I won't go looking for any more 'pets' but if an animal turns to me for help then i will personally do whatever i can. As usual it's humans that are the problem and it's meat eating humans who are the hypocrits for eating one sort of animal whilst keeping another sort as a 'pet'.

    As has also been said, it is possible to feed many 'pets' vegan diets, but for those that need meaty food, well imo it's a compromise, and it's a facility that comes about as an aside to the mass murder of animals for human 'food'.

  30. #680
    Mahk
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    Default Re: 'Pets': Which of these statements do you agree with?

    Quote cobweb View Post
    (a small point, Mahk, there are plenty of vegan detergents available for vegan restaurants, etc!)
    True they exist, and I use them myself, but I find here in the states that only half of them use vegan labeled soap (I'm speaking of what I find in their restrooms actually. I don't know for sure what the kitchen uses). Admittedly my sample size is extremely small though.

    Interestingly one of them that had vegan branded soap had a fish aquarium in the main restaurant! Are there such things as rescued fish? I kind of doubt it.

  31. #681
    RubyDuby
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    Default Re: 'Pets': Which of these statements do you agree with?

    Quote gogs67 View Post
    I was just pointing out that the majority of the folk that have replied over these 16 pages agreed with your way of thinking!
    well, i still think my response was perfectly relevent and resonable in its context right here on page 16.
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  32. #682
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    Default Re: 'Pets': Which of these statements do you agree with?

    Quote Mahk View Post
    Interestingly one of them that had vegan branded soap had a fish aquarium in the main restaurant! Are there such things as rescued fish? I kind of doubt it.
    Hi Mahk, I have rescued fish in my house. A friend of mine did not want to keep them any longer and I have adopted them... I am not sure about the ethical implications of this but they seem fairly happy and I got them a pretty big tank so they hopefully live in better now conditions than they were living in before i adopted them!

  33. #683
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    Default Re: 'Pets': Which of these statements do you agree with?

    If you Google there seem to be a few individuals and organisations in the UK that do fish rescue e.g.

    http://www.animalloversunite.co.uk/v...0f444d0ddec955

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    Default Re: 'Pets': Which of these statements do you agree with?

    Quote RubyDuby View Post
    well, i still think my response was perfectly relevent and resonable in its context right here on page 16.
    As do I.
    Disobedience is the true foundation of liberty!

  35. #685
    BlackCats
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    Default Re: 'Pets': Which of these statements do you agree with?

    Quote cobweb View Post
    I have known vegans get shirty with me in the past for working in sanctuaries (as apparently this makes me a kind of cog in the pet 'ownership' wheel, rehoming abandoned animals). Whilst i think it's great to have lofty ideals, as others have said, this is Real Life. In Real Life there are thousands of companion animals roaming the streets, being euthanased, being abused, waiting in animal shelters, and more on waiting lists to go into shelters. These animals need help now. They don't need to wait until we decide whether it may be hypocritical for us to feed and keep them .
    Yes exactly CW.

    (I also hate when people use the word euthanised to describe killing pets as I associate that word with putting something out of it's misery from having bad physical health and some pets that are put down are perfectly healthy. I'm not referring to you saying it CW I used the word earlier in this thread myself, just in general when people use it. It's like using the word culling, there is a detachment about what the act really is *rambles*.)

  36. #686
    cobweb
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    Default Re: 'Pets': Which of these statements do you agree with?

    i agree, actually, BC, 'euthanasia' is just a poncey word for killing someone.

  37. #687
    leedsveg
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    Default Re: 'Pets': Which of these statements do you agree with?

    BlackCats

    I am a vegan and have never had a companion animal and never wanted one. (By the same token I would never have wanted to own a human slave either.) When you say " ...I think people have a duty to take care of the animals", which "people" are you talking about?

  38. #688
    muxu bero bat! gogs67's Avatar
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    Default Re: 'Pets': Which of these statements do you agree with?

    Quote leedsveg View Post
    BlackCats

    I am a vegan and have never had a companion animal and never wanted one. (By the same token I would never have wanted to own a human slave either.) When you say " ...I think people have a duty to take care of the animals", which "people" are you talking about?
    I think she was talking about ALL people!
    But, just the same as it's your duty to defend your country if under attack, take care of the elderly or pay taxes, it's up to the individual whether you actually do these things or not!!
    Disobedience is the true foundation of liberty!

  39. #689
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    Default Re: 'Pets': Which of these statements do you agree with?

    Quote leedsveg View Post
    BlackCats I am a vegan and have never had a companion animal and never wanted one. (By the same token I would never have wanted to own a human slave either.) When you say " ...I think people have a duty to take care of the animals", which "people" are you talking about?
    I would be talking about me! I'm a person. I know other vegans don't share my views as is obvious from this discussion but I personally feel guilt for the millions of animals languishing in shelters when I am willing and able to give them a home. I don't have to be vegan either, that's my choice. You don't have to keep a companion animal if you don't want to obviously that's your choice. I can't tell from your comment whether or not you are against vegans keeping rescue animals.

    (Btw I have had tons of human slaves too, they're great, you should get one.)

  40. #690

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    Default Re: 'Pets': Which of these statements do you agree with?

    Quote BlackCats View Post
    I can't tell from your comment whether or not you are against vegans keeping rescue animals.
    Perhaps I'm reading between the lines too much but it seems pretty obvious to me Are all your cats rescues, BlackCats? I think it's wonderful if so, wonderful either way actually. I have nothing against keeping companion animals, much less so if they're rescues.

    I bought my (hunting) dog from a breeder - should I feel guilty about that? He's such a sweetheart and when I think of him in the hands of a hunter it breaks my heart.

  41. #691
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    Default Re: 'Pets': Which of these statements do you agree with?

    Quote fiamma View Post
    Perhaps I'm reading between the lines too much but it seems pretty obvious to me Are all your cats rescues, BlackCats? I think it's wonderful if so, wonderful either way actually. I have nothing against keeping companion animals, much less so if they're rescues.
    (Probably it is obvious Fiamma. Two of my cats were strays but the others were bought from my non-vegan days. I will rescue more though if/when I can convince my husband.:smile

    I think I should stay away from this thread just like I try to stay away from the abortion and religion threads. The debate ends up being very circular.

  42. #692
    CATWOMAN sandra's Avatar
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    Default Re: 'Pets': Which of these statements do you agree with?

    Quote leedsveg View Post
    BlackCats

    I am a vegan and have never had a companion animal and never wanted one. (By the same token I would never have wanted to own a human slave either.) When you say " ...I think people have a duty to take care of the animals", which "people" are you talking about?

    Hi Leedsveg, what would you do if a cat or dog approached you on the street and you knew it had no food or shelter? Would you walk on and leave it to whatever fate had in store or would you give it that food and shelter?
    Sometimes life isn't as simple as we would like it to be. I look after 11 cats who were previously homeless...........most of them came to me by their own free will. I didn't go looking for them but because I have a love of all life I couldn't turn them away when they needed help.
    I like Sandra, she keeps making me giggle. Daft little lady - Frosty

  43. #693
    leedsveg
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    Default Re: 'Pets': Which of these statements do you agree with?

    Hi Sandra, what would you do if a tramp approached you on the street and you knew he/she had no food or shelter? Would you walk on and leave him/her to whatever fate had in store or would you give him/her that food and shelter?
    I suspect a cute and cuddly animal would stand more chance of getting help/attention than would a tramp.Sometimes life isn't as simple as we would like it to be...

  44. #694
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    Default Re: 'Pets': Which of these statements do you agree with?

    ....umm.....who wouldn't give him food? I try and get every homeless person I see food, and usually, if they know where a shelter is, and know how much (usually around here it's like $4-$7 a night) I'll give them the cash for that night if I have it. I have, on occasion, even gone to an ATM to give people cash (only a couple circumstances, I don't go around throwing money away).

    However, I think domesticated animals are more like children. I would hope no one would pass up a homeless or lost child on the street without getting them to authorities that will help them find their/a home. It's the same with finding a cat and bringing them to a no kill shelter.

  45. #695
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    Default Re: 'Pets': Which of these statements do you agree with?

    Quote leedsveg View Post
    Hi Sandra, what would you do if a tramp approached you on the street and you knew he/she had no food or shelter? Would you walk on and leave him/her to whatever fate had in store or would you give him/her that food and shelter?
    I suspect a cute and cuddly animal would stand more chance of getting help/attention than would a tramp.Sometimes life isn't as simple as we would like it to be...

    for the most part i believe that people put themselves in a situation to be homeless, by making wrong decisions. NOT in all cases however, but there are many many options in most areas for them, like shelters...and at human shelters they don't kill you...whereas animals never choose to be homeless or without food, and the shelters they get stuck in, for the most part do kill them. the only options domesticated animals have is to be adopted.
    "i'm rejecting my reflection, cause i hate the way it judges me."

  46. #696
    CATWOMAN sandra's Avatar
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    Default Re: 'Pets': Which of these statements do you agree with?

    Quote leedsveg View Post
    Hi Sandra, what would you do if a tramp approached you on the street and you knew he/she had no food or shelter? Would you walk on and leave him/her to whatever fate had in store or would you give him/her that food and shelter?
    I suspect a cute and cuddly animal would stand more chance of getting help/attention than would a tramp.Sometimes life isn't as simple as we would like it to be...

    Hi Leedsveg,

    I could be wrong but do I detect a little hint of sarcasm in your post?

    To answer your 'question' I would try to help a homeless person as much as I could but just as Snivelingchild and MissBettie have said it is not exactly the same thing is it?
    Human adults are in a slightly different category from helpless animals who are usually at the mercy of sometimes cruel humans.

    Having said that, if it was the done thing and orphaned children roamed the streets I'd probably bring them home to live with me too............that however would be against the law!
    So, you see it comes down to compassion and common sense!
    To me, not to help an animal in distress would be un-vegan................and you still haven't answered my questions Leedsveg!
    I like Sandra, she keeps making me giggle. Daft little lady - Frosty

  47. #697
    cobweb
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    Default Re: 'Pets': Which of these statements do you agree with?

    Leedsveg that is a silly thing to say!

    Humans can (usually) find a way to communicate quite clearly with other humans and have many rights that non-humans do not enjoy.

  48. #698
    leedsveg
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    Default Re: 'Pets': Which of these statements do you agree with?

    Hi Sandra
    I wasn't intending to be sarcastic, just posting the problem from a different perspective. When I talked of a cute/cuddly animal standing more chance of getting help/attention than a tramp, I meant help/attention from the great mass of the public, not from you in particular because obviously I don't know you. My apologies for a lack of clarity.
    I still stand by my general statement, although I may be wrong and all over the country, on the spur of the moment, more people are taking in homeless tramps than dogs and cats.

    Hi cobweb. Sorry to sound a bit thick but I'm not sure I follow what you are saying in response to what I posted?

    As vegans, we choose to do the least harm and the most good but how we carry out these tenets might be slightly different for each of us.

    Peace & compassion.

  49. #699
    cobweb
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    Default Re: 'Pets': Which of these statements do you agree with?

    what i mean is this - how can you compare a 'tramp' with a stray 'pet'?.

    The 'tramp' has basic human rights, is probably capable of communicating directly with other humans (e.g, "Please, I need help"), and probably has a basic understanding of danger.

    On the other hand, a 'cute and cuddly' cat (for example) that has been abandoned and has no food, shelter, etc, is unable to ask directly for help and is at the mercy of every human that he/she meets - and has no recognisable means of assistance (cats can't walk into feline homeless shelters, DSS offices, that kind of thing).

    As a side note, i have know a few tramps in my life, all lived that way by choice, one was actually a millionaire.

  50. #700
    muxu bero bat! gogs67's Avatar
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    Default Re: 'Pets': Which of these statements do you agree with?

    Quote leedsveg View Post
    I still stand by my general statement, although I may be wrong and all over the country, on the spur of the moment, more people are taking in homeless tramps than dogs and cats.

    .
    I know from my work with Shelter that there is certainly a far wider support network and help for homeless people than there is for stray animals in the UK hence my predisposition to take a stray animal into my home rather than a stray human!
    Although both deserving cases i would say the animals tend to be overlooked far more!
    Disobedience is the true foundation of liberty!

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