View Poll Results: Which of these statements about 'pets' do you agree in? (Multiple Choice Poll)

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  • Veganism means not using animals for food, clothing, entertainment or any other purpose. Keeping a 'pet' = "other purpose"

    55 16.22%
  • I'm against puppy mills and commercial breeding of animals

    254 74.93%
  • I'm all for keeping rescued animals or animals that otherwise need me, but against keeping other 'pets'

    181 53.39%
  • I'm against keeping animals in captivity, which is why I prefer not to keep 'pets' captivated

    59 17.40%
  • I prefer not to make decisions about animals' social life, sex life, toilet habits, death date or or anything else.

    49 14.45%
  • As long as a 'pet' can freely roam around, but doesn't escape, I don't see anything wrong with keeping it

    93 27.43%
  • Keeping meat eating animals means either supporting the meat industry (when buying 'pet' food) or giving them plant food, which isn't natural for them

    86 25.37%
  • I'm not OK with keeping animals that needs to be caged

    140 41.30%
  • Unless we make all domesticated/institutionalized animals extinct (which I don't want), someone needs to take care of them

    144 42.48%
  • I would like to see the end of humans keeping all animals

    51 15.04%
  • I would like to see the end of humans keeping all animals, even if this means human extinction of certain animals

    36 10.62%
  • Regulations re. keeping animals need to be stricter than they are today

    193 56.93%
  • I disagree with selling animals for profit

    235 69.32%
  • Humans + 'pets' = non-obligatory mutualism

    54 15.93%
  • Non-obligatory mutualism? It's called The Stockholm syndrome!

    15 4.42%
Multiple Choice Poll.
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Thread: "Pets" - Which of these statements do you agree with?

  1. #151
    Simple Simon Imported Memory's Avatar
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    Default Re: What is your opinion about keeping pets? Poll planned...

    You kinda have to pick and choose with the Bible. According to Leviticus 19:19, gardens are a sin.

    "Thou shalt not sow thy field with mingled seed."
    Growing more than one kind of plant in one area is a no-no.

  2. #152
    cobweb
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    Default Re: What is your opinion about keeping pets? Poll planned...

    Mahk I have to take issue with you! - it is only in animals' best interests for us to care for them now because they have been bred into domestication by us!. My issue is thatwe made that decision for them and continue to do so, - how arrogant we are! .

  3. #153

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    Default Re: What is your opinion about keeping pets? Poll planned...

    Well I'm a hypocrite, I don't really agree with companion animals as an idea (especially after reading Mahk's post above!), but I have a dog

    In defence of keeping pets, think how many people turn compassionate because they know they can love a dog/cat/rabbit etc. Take that away, cut people off even more from animals.... shudder at the thought

  4. #154
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    Default Re: What is your opinion about keeping pets? Poll planned...

    Quote cobweb View Post
    It just scares me...........you give humans a privilege and they end up thinking they have a right . Animals don't understand our words and we don't understand them - some of us understand better than others, but the trouble is that any human can keep animals imprisoned in their homes/gardens, etc. It makes me shudder to imagine all those rabbits locked away who never get any exercise, or to see the dear little dogs that live next door to me, out in the garden in all weathers .

    I love living with companion animals but i would forgo that joy tomorrow if there were to be a blanket ban on all pet 'ownership' meaning that animals could never fall into the wrong hands again .
    cobweb... I agree entirely... well put...
    I have nothing to declare but my genius - Oscar Wilde

  5. #155
    muxu bero bat! gogs67's Avatar
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    Default Re: What is your opinion about keeping pets? Poll planned...

    Quote Mahk View Post
    Mr. Flibble, I think a more appropriate analogy for your argument would be the justification for slavery, not eating meat:
    "I find the idea of not having slaves around a bit odd.To deny yourself the enjoyment and companionship of slaves around is,to me,to deny yourself part of what being human is all about,we have evolved and adapted WITH slaves round us not separate from them!"

    Continuing on that thought:

    "Although there may be a few bad apples out there, the majority of us slave owners feed, clothe, and nurture our slaves quite well. It is in their own best interest for us to keep them, since they can't fend for themselves on the streets and would perish without us. I love my slaves, think of them as friends or my family really, and I hardly ever beat them and of course only when they've been bad or have attempted to escape their cage or the locked doors of my house. People who beat their slaves for fun just make me sick! Whenever I castrate or brand my slaves I always allow them to get liquored up first and only use sterile cutting shears and branding irons to minimize infections."

    "Slavery has existed for thousands of years. This is God's way, you see, and slavery is condoned in both the Old and New Testament. Being Christian, I strictly adhere to the Bible's rules regarding beatings:

    When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)"
    Oh,PLEASE,now your comparing me to a plantation owner from the deep South!
    I don't know one vegan that doesn't have animals round the house because that's part of what we do,take in rescue animals that would otherwise be put down or live out their life in some hellish shelter!
    Now you can wrap up your views in some holier than thou moral and ethical rhetoric,and i would agree to the point that in a perfect world there would be no war,famine,disease,animal abuse etc,but this is reality,there ARE animals needing homes,i don't live in some rural utopia.Veganism to me and all the people i know,is live life trying to cause as little suffering to animals as possible,not cutting yourself off from them entirely because of some unobtainable philisophical viewpoint,and if there are dogs and cats that need a home and cared for i will continue to do so.
    Just my view on it but i think it's a slippery slope if you go around criticising me,everyone i know and all the other vegans on this thread because they have animals around.It doesn't come across as a very accessable viewpoint to someone who is NOT vegan!
    Disobedience is the true foundation of liberty!

  6. #156
    told me to Mr Flibble's Avatar
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    Default Re: What is your opinion about keeping pets? Poll planned...

    I'm not sure of Mahk's viewpoint and I know your post was aimed at him, but I've made similar comments to Mahk in this thread. If you read my rather lengthy postings you'll see that I (and i think most) vegans are not against rescuing animals, but with continued breeding of domesticated animals that require human ownership.

    On the subject of no vegans not having animals I know plenty, including myself and my partner.

    With regard to accessibility, veganism would be more accessible to non vegans if we championed the idea of eating a vegan diet only 50% of the time. AR activism is one thing, but leading a vegan lifestyle is about ethics, not recruitment.
    "Mr Flibble - forum corruptor of innocents!!" - Hemlock

  7. #157
    BlackCats
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    Default Re: What is your opinion about keeping pets? Poll planned...

    I do agree with Mr Flibble in principle but I don't live my life in that way because I love my animals and think my life would be way lonelier than it is without them - so probably that is pure selfishness on my part.

    But I agree with Gogs67 that this a an imperfect world and rescuing animals that might be put down otherwise is a better solution to a less than ideal situation.

    What I don't understand is if a vegan was against any animal and human interaction would they ever rescue an animal?

  8. #158
    Mahk
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    Default Re: What is your opinion about keeping pets? Poll planned...

    Quote gogs67 View Post
    Oh,PLEASE,now your comparing me to a plantation owner from the deep South!
    No, I wasn't comparing you to anyone. If you re-read my post again you'll see virtually all of it is in quotation marks. I didn't say that I thought any of these things, but rather that Mr Flibble's camp would have a better argument using an analogy to slavery, instead of eating meat. I thought your point to him,
    "If you cant see the difference between eating and companionship i don't think i'd want tae visit yer house!"
    was quite valid. I'm sorry I did not make this more clear.

    i think it's a slippery slope if you go around criticising me,everyone i know and all the other vegans on this thread because they have animals around.
    I wasn't criticizing you, or anyone else on this thread. Again, I'm sorry if I did not make this more clear, I was just expounding on how I would think Mr. Flibble and his camp feel about it, but of course I'll let him speak for himself.

  9. #159
    Mahk
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    Default Re: What is your opinion about keeping pets? Poll planned...

    Quote cobweb View Post
    Mahk I have to take issue with you! - it is only in animals' best interests for us to care for them now because they have been bred into domestication by us!. My issue is that we made that decision for them and continue to do so, - how arrogant we are! .
    Cobweb, you don't take issue with my views at all. The quoted material in my post were not my views. Sorry I didn't make that clear. I actually agree with Barley, your post most closely reflects my views, as well, and I applaud your brave stance, especially the last part:

    It just scares me...........you give humans a privilege and they end up thinking they have a right . Animals don't understand our words and we don't understand them - some of us understand better than others, but the trouble is that any human can keep animals imprisoned in their homes/gardens, etc. It makes me shudder to imagine all those rabbits locked away who never get any exercise, or to see the dear little dogs that live next door to me, out in the garden in all weathers .

    I love living with companion animals but i would forgo that joy tomorrow if there were to be a blanket ban on all pet 'ownership' meaning that animals could never fall into the wrong hands again .

  10. #160
    cobweb
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    Default Re: What is your opinion about keeping pets? Poll planned...

    Well thanks for clearing that up, Mahk

  11. #161
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    Default Re: What is your opinion about keeping pets? Poll planned...

    Quote eclectic_one View Post
    I agree with you. There are even people who declaw rabbits (I noticed your avatar ) because they don't like their digging or declaw cats because they're ruining furniture.
    "i'm rejecting my reflection, cause i hate the way it judges me."

  12. #162
    Tibetan Snake's Avatar
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    Default Re: What is your opinion about keeping pets? Poll planned...

    The cat that shairs my life once gave me a reason to live. I do love her unconditionally.
    DON'T BEEMOAN THE DARK. LIGHT A CANDLE AND SHOW THE WAY.

  13. #163

    Default Re: What is your opinion about keeping pets? Poll planned...

    my cat keeps me sane n happy (she is my cat as I am her human)
    'Spring will soon pounce [like a floppy kitten]'. Whalespace.

  14. #164

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    Default Re: What is your opinion about keeping pets? Poll planned...

    I have a general rule for pets - never keep a pet unless it needs you more than you need it.

  15. #165
    Cattmogg's Avatar
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    Default Re: What is your opinion about keeping pets? Poll planned...

    Kafka rocks, hes the coolest dog on the planet.
    If i keep a green bough in my heart my singing bird will come.

  16. #166

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    Default Re: What is your opinion about keeping pets? Poll planned...

    Hi People,

    I have read most of this thread but I am sure I have missed something - was there ever a poll or was it decided not to - I have read people's opinions but was interested in what the majority would vote for.

    Thanks
    Hetfield

  17. #167
    Abe Froman Risker's Avatar
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    Default Re: What is your opinion about keeping pets? Poll planned...

    Doesn't look like it, maybe now you've bumped the thread korn will make one
    "I don't want to live on this planet any more" - Professor Hubert J. Farnsworth

  18. #168
    Ex-admin Korn's Avatar
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    Default Re: What is your opinion about keeping pets? Poll planned...

    The poll will come - I just need to go through 160+ posts first to figure out which reply options we should have. Suggestions are welcome...

  19. #169
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    Default Re: What is your opinion about keeping pets? Poll planned...

    Quote tubley View Post
    I have a general rule for pets - never keep a pet unless it needs you more than you need it.
    Him or her please. Animals are not objects but living beings.
    The only normal people are the ones you don't know very well

  20. #170
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    Default Re: What is your opinion about keeping pets? Poll planned...

    Quote tubley View Post
    I have a general rule for pets - never keep a pet unless it needs you more than you need it.
    So are we to leev Dogs on the streets and let them go around in big gangs and kill anything that moovs any where near them?
    They will servive and one would need a F*"^off big stick and lots of people to help one to get to the locle shop to get some Scheezz.
    How do we feel about the breeders?
    How do we feel about Spaying/Nootering?
    What about introduste speeces?
    Pure breeds or Hinze 57?
    DON'T BEEMOAN THE DARK. LIGHT A CANDLE AND SHOW THE WAY.

  21. #171
    Klytemnest
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    Default Re: Is it right for a vegan to keep a 'pet'? Poll planned

    Quote Holly78 View Post
    This is something I have given much thought to. I believe that it is wrong to use animals for any purpose, including companionship and therefore I am against the pet trade and 'hobby' breeding.

    However, it breaks my heart that hundreds of thousands of animals are put to sleep every year in rescues for lack of homes. They didn't ask to be born and are the innocent victims of a pet owning society. I do not believe that it goes against my vegan principles to have companion animals that would otherwise live out their lives in a rescue/be put to sleep.

    I love my companion animals (four rats) dearly and I do enjoy having them around. However, I can honestly say that if there were no animals in rescues, I would not keep them because breeding for companionship is no different to breeding for food/clothing etc.
    Well, yes, keeping parrots in a cage or fish in a tiny fishbowl would be keeping pets for companionship and it would be animal slavery, basically. But with dogs and cats that is not the case. I have never owned a dog, but I have owned cats. I had my dear boy Paolo put to sleep on January 19, 2007. We had had him since he was 7 weeks old. He was our little baby. And he loved us in return. The cat lovers on this board will understand... Every night, as I would climb into bed, he would hop on, walk over to me, sit on my chest, put his little front paws around me and would start purring and shoving his little nose in my ear. Then he would lick my sideburns and the two of us would fall asleep in each others arms. It was a veritable love affair! You cannot tell me this was an animal that was being exploited and enslaved. I absolutely adored him and would have done anything I could to give him a happy, comfortable life. I wish I could have transferred his cancer onto me.

    Ah, crap, now I'm crying...

    Anyway, what are we to do with cats? Cats do not live out in the forest. They are domesticated animals. They need us. Homeless cats, espcially the ones that live in the city, have miserable, short lives. Paolo made it to 13. I wish he could have lived another seven years, but cancer doesn't care. I think caring for my little boy strengthened my vegan convictions. After all, isn't being vegan about compassion? It sure is for me. One of the objections was about not wanting the responsibility or power over any other animal. Well, I am sorry, but I think that is kind of un-vegan. If we truly care about decreasing the amount of suffering in the world and making it a better place, we ought to take responsibility for those that need us, we ought to exercise our whatever power we have over them to help them live pleasanter lives. I am convinced that Paolo would not have had a happier life without us, out in the wild, or out on the streets. Besides, we adopted him. If we had not done so, he probably would have ended up being euthanized at the local shelter.

    As you can see, I am hardly dispassionate on this subject.

  22. #172
    Tibetan Snake's Avatar
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    Default Re: What is your opinion about keeping pets? Poll planned...

    Some Austrailyuns have had a contest to see who can make Feral Cats tast the best.
    So much ferther to go.
    DON'T BEEMOAN THE DARK. LIGHT A CANDLE AND SHOW THE WAY.

  23. #173
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    Default Re: What is your opinion about keeping pets? Poll planned...

    hugs to you kyltemnest. i feel your pain. it sounds like little paolo had a really really great life with you, and i bet he was the happiest kitten in the world to have such a great best friend/dad.

    i believe in taking care of pets because i believe there are so many animals without homes and the love that they all deserve so very much. when steev and i buy a house, we are going to adopt as many animals as we can from the shelter. (especially the older ones as well, because it makes us very very sad that people just walk by them and dont want them because they are older. i always say, i would really hope that if i was old and sickly and had noone to love me, someone WOULD love me and take care of me)

    right now we have our baby ginger. she really is our baby and we love her more than anything in the world, and she is the highlight of our day, EVERY day. she snuggles us and kisses us if we are sick, comforts me if i am sad, cuddles me when i am cold, and we do the same for her. we always say we dont know where wed be without our baby ginger.
    "you dont have to be tall to see the moon" - african proverb

  24. #174
    Michael Benis's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is it right for a vegan to keep a 'pet'? Poll planned.

    Quote Korn View Post
    ... which should cover animals bought from the 'pet trade', puppy farms etc. as well? A yes to commercial breeding?
    Exactly! The whole thing is so complicated that a poll doesn't even begin to adddress the many variables involved. This thread's much more interesting

  25. #175
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    Default Re: Is it right for a vegan to keep a 'pet'? Poll planned

    Quote Klytemnest View Post
    Well, yes, keeping parrots in a cage or fish in a tiny fishbowl would be keeping pets for companionship and it would be animal slavery, basically. But with dogs and cats that is not the case. .
    Hmmm..I disagree. It depends upon the animal - you cannot assume that any caged animal is a slave whilst a dog or cat is not. Size wise - a small animal in a large cage may be better off than a dog in a room/house. They are all kept for companionship and exist because people bred them for that purpose and continue to do so.

    I am sorry about your cat by the way. He sounds like he was a lovely little character.
    "Only after the last tree has been cut down,the last fish caught [and] the last river poisoned;only then will you realise that money cannot be eaten"

  26. #176
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    Default Re: What is your opinion about keeping pets? Poll planned...

    Sooo many posts and things that have been said already, and I think most of us will agree: having companion animals from rescues etc is fine, buying from the pet trade, whether that is a "recognised" breeder or a puppy farmer isn't.

    However, I'd like to respond to something that caught me a few pages back. Someone said that they left their dog to his own devices, without training him or anything, to me implying that training a dog is "wrong" and therefore not vegan.

    I've got 2 dogs. I'm not saying "I've got" as in "I own", but more of an "I'm responsible for". Same as when you have kids: you say "I've got a son", but you don't mean to say that you own him and he'll do as he's told for the rest of his days. Aaaanyway, they are, of course, both rescues and I'm caring for them as best as I can. For me that means looking at what their individual needs are. Now Mal has had hardly any training, because I used to think that "training a dog wasn't vegan", he didn't really get himself into trouble by doing his own thing and it seemed like he had enough stimulation doing so.Mal is now older and is happy to pootle about and pick up whatever he thinks is edible - we disagree at least 3 times per walk

    Kiera's a different ball game all together. Kiera has got lots of energy and needs play and stimulation. Her recall is okay most of the time, but when she finds something that's more interesting than me, I just stop existing. That wouldn't be such a problem, if it wasn't for the fact that the "more interesting thing" (please note brackets!) is one of the neighbours cats. Would you be happy for my dog to chase your cat and potentially end both their lives by chasing them into a busy road? I didn't think so.
    Like I said, Kiera needs stimulation, and more than she can get from walks round the park or just a game. We've been to training and she loved it!

    If you know your companion animal you can tell when they are happy, sad, contented, bored etc. If Kiera doesn't get some kind of stimulation at least a few times a week she'd be bored shedless. Now I don't think that being bored contributes to her quality of life. She loved the challenge of having to think of what she was supposed to do and spending time with me, actually doing something. The reason we stopped going was that there was a constant stream of newbies coming in, and Kiera and I both got bored having to start back from square one all the time. I'd love to do agility with her, and I'm still looking for a club that's fairly local and isn't full. If she wouldn't like it i'd notice it soon enough and we wouldn't be going back. If she does though, we'll have a great activity that we can do together. There is a whole lot of difference between that and teaching an animal circus tricks that they are forced to do every day.
    Please don't tar all training with the same brush. It's not all black and white, there are tons of shades of grey!

    Oh and I should mention that part of me looking after them as best as I can also means that they get the best diet possible. In my opinion that is vegan, homecooked, so they get a freshly cooked meal every night, with fresh veg and ground up seeds and what have ya, to meet their nutritional needs. They love their food and we have clean, empty bowls every day.
    please grant me the senility to forget about people I never liked anyway

  27. #177
    Mahk
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    Default Re: What is your opinion about keeping pets? Poll planned...

    Good points, Billy. Indeed there are shades of gray. I agree that house breaking your rescued dog not to excrete in the house is totally different from the tricks that tortured animals seen performing in a circus do, but where I get in to trouble personally (coming to a conclusion on) is my omni friend's horse "breaking" (or whatever you call it when you teach them to let humans ride them). I know he and his wife just love the horse and think of it as their baby. I know that other than a light crop they'd never beat their horse but I also doubt that if the horse could talk he'd say he's eager to learn how to be ridden and ordered about by humans. But how is this really different from teaching your dog to roll over simply for your amusement and is that really so bad? What do other people think?

    I also agree that the size of the animal and the size of the "cage" comes into play in the overall poll question. If you must keep a bird in a cage because otherwise if the house's windows were left open it would fly away and never return then I don't think that's vegan. The bird is a slave, not a voluntary housemate/companion.

  28. #178
    AR Activist Roxy's Avatar
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    Default Re: What is your opinion about keeping pets? Poll planned...

    We found our cat on a vacant block of land, scrounging around for food in some disgusting old take-out wrappers somebody had probably thrown out their car window days beforehand.

    She was between 6 months and 1 year old and only weighed 4 pounds.

    If we didn't bring her home and take care of all her needs, she would be dead by now, I'm sure.

  29. #179
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    Default Re: What is your opinion about keeping pets? Poll planned...

    Yes, Holly, it's like the difference between someone who works from home living with a dog and someone who works in an office leaving a dog locked up at home all day.

    And Billy, think about giving the dogs something like Vegedog to avoid enlarged heart problems etc., especially if they are largish dogs.

    Cheers

    Mike

  30. #180
    Klytemnest
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    Default Re: Is it right for a vegan to keep a 'pet'? Poll planned

    [QUOTE]
    Quote Holly78 View Post
    Hmmm..I disagree. It depends upon the animal - you cannot assume that any caged animal is a slave whilst a dog or cat is not. Size wise - a small animal in a large cage may be better off than a dog in a room/house. They are all kept for companionship and exist because people bred them for that purpose and continue to do so.
    I don't think shorthair American cats were bred to be that way. They just evolved that way naturally. But even if they had been the product of breeding, so what? They are what they are and they need homes. I mean, do you honestly think that our cats would be better off if we just released them and let them "enjoy" their freedom? I sure don't. I treat my cat like he is my baby. That's not slavery. To accuse me of keeping my cat for companionship would be the same as accusing a parent of keeping their baby around for companionship.

    OK, I know you are speaking in general terms and I am making it all about me, but I just had to get it off my chest...

    I am sorry about your cat by the way. He sounds like he was a lovely little character.
    Thank you for that. He was my little joy. I adored him. I miss him so much it hurts. I don't know what the hell happened to me... The combination of my father's health, Paolo's death and my going vegan turned me into an exposed nerve!

  31. #181
    muxu bero bat! gogs67's Avatar
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    Default Re: What is your opinion about keeping pets? Poll planned...

    I don't know one vegan who deosn't have animals around them,dogs,cats,hamsters,rats,whatever and find the whole debate kinda odd,equating a loved pet to a circus animal?wtf?
    There's some extremeism at it's most extreme here!
    Disobedience is the true foundation of liberty!

  32. #182
    fortified twinkle's Avatar
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    Default Re: What is your opinion about keeping pets? Poll planned...

    I don't have animals around me. I don't equate pets to circus animals, they're pretty separate issues.
    "If you don't have a song to sing you're okay, you know how to get along humming" Waltz (better than fine) - Fiona Apple

  33. #183
    told me to Mr Flibble's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is it right for a vegan to keep a 'pet'? Poll planned

    How many vegans do you know gogs67? If you count 'knowing' as including people online then you already know that i do not.

    Quote Klytemnest View Post
    They are what they are and they need homes. I mean, do you honestly think that our cats would be better off if we just released them and let them "enjoy" their freedom?
    I'm not sure whether this is a general question or directed at someone in particular. If in general, then it's been discussed in previous pages with views from both sides. As such I won't reiterate my answer again.
    "Mr Flibble - forum corruptor of innocents!!" - Hemlock

  34. #184
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    Default Re: What is your opinion about keeping pets? Poll planned...

    Quote Mahk View Post
    Good points, Billy. Indeed there are shades of gray. I agree that house breaking your rescued dog not to excrete in the house is totally different from the tricks that tortured animals seen performing in a circus do, but where I get in to trouble personally (coming to a conclusion on) is my omni friend's horse "breaking" (or whatever you call it when you teach them to let humans ride them). I know he and his wife just love the horse and think of it as their baby. I know that other than a light crop they'd never beat their horse but I also doubt that if the horse could talk he'd say he's eager to learn how to be ridden and ordered about by humans. But how is this really different from teaching your dog to roll over simply for your amusement and is that really so bad? What do other people think?
    I struggle a bit with horses. I gave up riding because I was uncomfortable with the whole 'breaking in' of young horses and the money making aspect of riding schools. I think it has to be same as other rescue animals. If I had a rescue horse - obviously it would need to be exercised so I would not have a problem riding it. Also my understanding is that they do bond with humans much as dogs and some other animals and therefore they can have a good quality of life and 'enjoy' being ridden.

    Quote Mahk View Post
    I also agree that the size of the animal and the size of the "cage" comes into play in the overall poll question. If you must keep a bird in a cage because otherwise if the house's windows were left open it would fly away and never return then I don't think that's vegan. The bird is a slave, not a voluntary housemate/companion.
    Are any animals truly voluntary companions? 'Pets' have been bred in such a way that they bond with humans and this is true of some birds (e.g parrots) and certainly of rats (which I have) as well as dogs and cats. Animals do not have the intelligence to know that 'outside' is dangerous and part of the responsiblity of having them is to keep them safe. Having a bird in a (large) cage and keeping windows closed is akin to keeping the front door of your house locked so a dog doesn't wander onto a busy road.

    The one class of 'pets' I do not agree with keeping however is exotics. Because they are not sufficiently removed from their wild counterparts, I do not think they bond with humans in the same way and therefore do not have the quality of life.
    "Only after the last tree has been cut down,the last fish caught [and] the last river poisoned;only then will you realise that money cannot be eaten"

  35. #185
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    Default Re: Is it right for a vegan to keep a 'pet'? Poll planned

    [quote=Klytemnest;360463]

    I don't think shorthair American cats were bred to be that way. They just evolved that way naturally. But even if they had been the product of breeding, so what? They are what they are and they need homes. I mean, do you honestly think that our cats would be better off if we just released them and let them "enjoy" their freedom? I sure don't. I treat my cat like he is my baby. That's not slavery. To accuse me of keeping my cat for companionship would be the same as accusing a parent of keeping their baby around for companionship.

    OK, I know you are speaking in general terms and I am making it all about me, but I just had to get it off my chest...


    I think you are misunderstanding me. I am not accusing you of slavery or suggesting that cats should be released to 'enjoy' their freedom. I have previously said that I think it is better than rescue animals that can have a good quality of life with humans live out their lives in caring homes rather than be put to sleep.

    I was just commenting on your assertion that it is ok to keep dogs and cats but not other animals. Animals other than dogs and cats are capable of forming the same human bonds and thus enjoying the same quality of life...that to me is what is important.
    "Only after the last tree has been cut down,the last fish caught [and] the last river poisoned;only then will you realise that money cannot be eaten"

  36. #186
    told me to Mr Flibble's Avatar
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    Default Re: What is your opinion about keeping pets? Poll planned...

    Where do you draw the line between perceived quality of life and ability to live a life where natural instincts that we as humans hold fundamental (such as mating, reproduction etc) can be exhibited?

    You say that animals do not have 'the intelligence to know that outside is dangerous'. As most animals live outside this sounds rather obsurd. Obviously if an animal is bred in captivity then suddenly released it won't have built up the experience (which it may require from birth with parental guidance) required to live sucessfully. But this stands for humans also. I've seen the argument 'in captivity they have a better quality of life because they are removed from danger and don't have to worry about it' used in defence of zoos before (including in 'The Life of Pi').
    "Mr Flibble - forum corruptor of innocents!!" - Hemlock

  37. #187
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    Default Re: What is your opinion about keeping pets? Poll planned...

    Quote Mr Flibble View Post
    Where do you draw the line between perceived quality of life and ability to live a life where natural instincts that we as humans hold fundamental (such as mating, reproduction etc) can be exhibited?
    It is definitely a balancing act between letting them exhibit such natural behaviours to give them quality of life but also taking responsibility for them in place of 'nature' if you like. Wild animals have multiple litters because some die from exposure/starvation or are eaten by predators. This is obviously not the case with pet animals who cannot be directly compared.

    As are man made creatures living an artificial life they have different needs we are responsible to do what is best for them. It is not in their interests (in their artificial life) to breed out of control anymore than it is to eat whatever they like or run around as they please.

    Quote Mr Flibble View Post
    You say that animals do not have 'the intelligence to know that outside is dangerous'. As most animals live outside this sounds rather obsurd. Obviously if an animal is bred in captivity then suddenly released it won't have built up the experience (which it may require from birth with parental guidance) required to live sucessfully. But this stands for humans also. I've seen the argument 'in captivity they have a better quality of life because they are removed from danger and don't have to worry about it' used in defence of zoos before (including in 'The Life of Pi').
    Sorry if I am not explaining myself very well. I draw a distinction between 'wild animals' and 'pet animals' as above. The latter does not know how to survive outside which is why releasing pet animals into the wild is a death sentence and very cruel.

    Of course wild animals can survive outside - and I totally agree with you that zoos keeping animals in captivity because they 'have a better quality of life' is rubbish. Those animals are wild animals and live a miserable existence so far removed from what they would have enjoyed in the wild. They are supposed to face dangers in their natural existence and of course some don't make it - that is nature.

    (I have read Life of Pi - it is a great book!)
    "Only after the last tree has been cut down,the last fish caught [and] the last river poisoned;only then will you realise that money cannot be eaten"

  38. #188

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    Default Re: What is your opinion about keeping pets? Poll planned...

    The problem is that dogs/cats/horses/brds etc can't tell us what they'd prefer - a home being loved but having to live by human's ways, or be free and all that that brings for good or bad.

    So as they can't, we make the decision for them, for whatever reasons we humans have, sometimes good, sometimes not.

    I've got a dog, I didn't seek one out, she came to me in odd cirumstances but she's with me now and that's that! I've wondered in the past, like when I had to leave her while I worked, whether I ought to find a better home for her, but to my shame I just couldn't let her go. Who's to say what's better anyway, I know people who are home all day with their dogs but the dog doesn't get half the attention/exercise mine did.

    So here we are, I think of her as my friend rather then pet, I've now made massive sacrifices to my income & lifestyle so she can be with me all the time, I make daily small sacrifices, but yes she deserves every sacrifice I make. There are many ways her life IS inhibited becuase of me, it's inevitable, even though sometimes it's for her own safety.

    I don't know if I'd have another pet when this one breaks my heart, I think no for all the reasons people have said we shouldn't keep them... but I honestly can't imagine living in a home with no beloved animal friend either.

  39. #189
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    Default Re: What is your opinion about keeping pets? Poll planned...

    Quote Mahk View Post
    I get in to trouble personally (coming to a conclusion on) is my omni friend's horse "breaking" (or whatever you call it when you teach them to let humans ride them). What do other people think?
    There's a thread here, Mahk. My views are on there somewhere (it got a bit heated!).
    "Do what you can with what you have where you are."
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  40. #190
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    Default Re: What is your opinion about keeping pets? Poll planned...

    Thanks for that link, the discussion did get a bit heated!
    I had wondered what other vegans thought about horse-riding after I saw on another site that a vegan woman mentioned keeping horses.

  41. #191
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    Default Re: What is your opinion about keeping pets? Poll planned...

    I forgot I had posted on that thread with the very same question! (I still feel the same about horse riding for the record.)
    "Only after the last tree has been cut down,the last fish caught [and] the last river poisoned;only then will you realise that money cannot be eaten"

  42. #192
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    Default Re: What is your opinion about keeping pets? Poll planned...

    Quote Michael Benis View Post
    And Billy, think about giving the dogs something like Vegedog to avoid enlarged heart problems etc., especially if they are largish dogs.
    Hi Mike,

    Could you please tell me where you got this information from? There is awfully little information about when it comes to a vegan homecooked diet for dogs, so I'm happy with any bit of information. What is the nutrient in it that would prevent these problems? And would this be similar for dogs who are on an omnivorous diet?

    Quote Mr Flibble View Post
    You say that animals do not have 'the intelligence to know that outside is dangerous'. As most animals live outside this sounds rather obsurd. .
    Having worked as a volunteer for a (wild) animal rescue and ambulance service, I can tell you that that is not absurd at all. Animals are instinctively quite capable of dealing with the natural outside world, but many animals' instincts have not adapted to manmade invasions into this. Hence the road trafffic accidents, birds flying into wire, windows etc. I always get awfully upset when I see people walking their dogs off lead next to a busy road. No, being able to appreciate the potential lethalness (??) of a car is not something that comes naturally to a dog (or most other animals) and if a dog sees something on the other side of the road that draws their attention enough then they will cross, regardless of the hazards on it. Same for rabbits/hedgehogs/foxes etc. I've picked up enough dead bodies to know this for sure.

    As for horse riding, I'm a bit on the fence on this one, because I used to ride and look after horses for almost 15 years. I now completely disagree with any involvement of animals for whatever reason when there's money involved, because by its very nature the money and/or status will come before the animal's welfare. I do think however, that some horses enjoy the interaction, stimulation and don't forget the chance to get out. Unfortunately it isn't possible in this world to take your horse for an off lead walk in the woods or on the beach in the same way as you would your dog. Riding them will usually be the only way to offer them a change of scene, and I do believe that, like dogs, many horses will welcome the distraction and the exercise. I used to ride a horse I regarded as one of my best friends. We used to go out for a ride in the hills and back through the vineyards. Coming back, him foaming purple foam from his mouth, and my hands and face covered in grape juice, I don't think he'd just been put through misery

    Don't forget that animals, like humans, have needs other than the very basics. I think you just can't have a blanket rule of "animals shouldn't be trained/ridden" or what have ya, because every animal is different. Some animals will not like any other interaction than being provided with their food and a safe, clean place to sleep, other animals would simply waste away without the kind of stimulation and exercise that only humans can provide them with (most horses can't decide to take themselves out to the beach for a day). I've already mentioned how Kiera enjoyed being at training. I'd sometimes take Mal along, and he just seemed to enjoy being somewhere different and watching all the goings on from his blanket. I strongly feel that with holding human interaction and stimulation in whichever way can sometimes be a lot worse for their quality of life; ever considered that a domesticated animal can be plain bored? I know when Kiera is bored and it is then up to me to alleviate that - by providing her with activities.

    I think that, before you judge whether human-animal interaction is appropriate you will have to look at the individual animal and try to understand what they are trying to tell you. All animals will give off signs of what they want and need. If you decide to care for an animal it is your responsibility to learn their language and to provide them with what they tell you they need as best as you can.
    please grant me the senility to forget about people I never liked anyway

  43. #193
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    Default Re: What is your opinion about keeping pets? Poll planned...

    Billy - I agree with everything you just said! It is all about the particular animal's needs. I dislike the 'show ring' like Crufts intensely because as you said it is all about making money and aesthetics but I know that agility and flyball is something dogs do enjoy and in the case of the more intelligent breeds like collies - actually need - by way of mental stimulation.
    "Only after the last tree has been cut down,the last fish caught [and] the last river poisoned;only then will you realise that money cannot be eaten"

  44. #194
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    Default Re: What is your opinion about keeping pets? Poll planned...

    Gosh, someone agrees with me! Thank you Holly!
    please grant me the senility to forget about people I never liked anyway

  45. #195
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    Default Re: Is it right for a vegan to keep a 'pet'? Poll planned

    Quote Mr Flibble View Post
    How many vegans do you know gogs67? If you count 'knowing' as including people online then you already know that i do not.
    .
    Nah,i wouldn't count people online as 'knowing'.Straight off the top of my head i can think of 11 vegans who are friends and live in Edinburgh that have animals.If i start to widen the circle to folk i know in the rest of the UK,Europe and the States that are vegan with animals then the number will certainly shoot up!
    Disobedience is the true foundation of liberty!

  46. #196
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    Default Dog diet info for Billy

    Billy, take a look here, specifically note the comments on taurine and carnitine - better safe than sorry and both available in vegan forms, but note that Vegedog does not contain the latter:

    http://www.helpinganimals.com/pdfs/D...=&id=46ea5bd3b

    http://www.helpinganimals.com/Factsh...play.asp?ID=34

    http://www.vegepet.com/fordogs.html

    hth

    Mike

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    Default Re: What is your opinion about keeping pets? Poll planned...

    Quote Billy View Post
    I always get awfully upset when I see people walking their dogs off lead next to a busy road.
    I don't. Some dogs have better road sense then others. Some dogs don't really need leads at all. Particularly older dogs. Of course if you've got a young dog with a lot of energy and poor road sense that would be totally differant.

    I agree with you as far as training is concerned. Jilli is a trained dog. Her recall is excellant which means that it is a pleasure to take her on walks so she gets more of them. I feel that she actually does benifit from being trained as she has more freedom on walks then untrained dogs who have to be kept on a lead for their own safety.

    I have rescue rats and Chinchillas who are allowed time to free range whenever I can manage it although the rats get more time out due to the fact they can be trusted more to return to their cage. When I want my chinchilla's back a friend has to catch them for me.

    As Holly said one has to strike a balance and it can be hard at times. Particularly with the Chinchillas. I think Chinchilla's should not really have been domesticated. I don't even see them as animal friends as I do with my dog and my rats. I see them more as furry refugees who have to stay where they are because If they leave the house they would not live long.

    I've had rats return from outdoors as well as from my attic which might as well be outdoors as their is no way I'd find them there although the lack of cats does make it somewhat safer. A chinchilla would never do that.

  48. #198
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    Default Re: Dog diet info for Billy

    Quote Michael Benis View Post
    Billy, take a look here, specifically note the comments on taurine and carnitine - better safe than sorry and both available in vegan forms, but note that Vegedog does not contain the latter:

    http://www.helpinganimals.com/pdfs/D...=&id=46ea5bd3b

    http://www.helpinganimals.com/Factsh...play.asp?ID=34

    http://www.vegepet.com/fordogs.html

    hth

    Mike
    Hi Mike,

    thanks for that! I'll have a look at it later (possibly even have it printed off at work . Like I said, there is precious little information about vegetarian/vegan homecooked diets for dogs. My (or rather 'their'!) previous vet's known for a few years what diet they are given, and has never either objected nor advised about the risk of heart enlargement. Unfortunately he's moved away, but I'll ask the other vet in the practice what she thinks next time we speak
    please grant me the senility to forget about people I never liked anyway

  49. #199
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    Default Re: What is your opinion about keeping pets? Poll planned...

    Quote dreama View Post
    I don't. Some dogs have better road sense then others. Some dogs don't really need leads at all. Particularly older dogs. Of course if you've got a young dog with a lot of energy and poor road sense that would be totally differant.
    Through working as a volunteer at this animal rescue/ambulance service I've learnt to never ever trust a dog's road sense. 9 Out of 10 heart broken dog "owners", standing by the remains of their friend who'd just been hit by a car, said: "he was always walked off lead, he's never done that before" etc etc etc. A dog can see, hear, smell things that you don't, an unexpected piece of fire work can make even the most confident, street wise dog dog bolt, you just won't know until it's too late.

    I know 2 three-legged dogs: both lost a leg in a traffic accident, after they'd been either a latch key dog or walking with their carers, off lead, for years. Driving home on a dark, rainy night I suddenly found an animal right in front of my car. Fortunately I was already driving slowly on a quiet street, so I slammed the brakes and got out. The animal running off hastily was the dog who had already lost a leg in an accident 4-5 years ago

    Older dogs who have been walked off lead all their lives might not be as aware as they should be of the loss of their hearing/eye sight/general mobility. I know Malcolm still wants to thunder down hills and river banks but I've got to stop him because I know he won't be able to make it back up. He's not in the least aware of his more restricted physical capabilities.

    While I'm all for animals having as much freedom as possible I do think that as their carers we have a duty to protect them from harm as well as possible.
    please grant me the senility to forget about people I never liked anyway

  50. #200
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    Default Re: Is it right for a vegan to keep a 'pet'? Poll planned

    Quote Mr Flibble View Post
    How many vegans do you know gogs67? If you count 'knowing' as including people online then you already know that i do not.



    I'm not sure whether this is a general question or directed at someone in particular. If in general, then it's been discussed in previous pages with views from both sides. As such I won't reiterate my answer again.
    Sorry, I'm pretty new here... There is much I have not yet read. But I am getting there, slowly but surely.

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