Circumcision or no circumcision?

[Yoggy]

I know this isn't really a vegan topic, but I thought it belonged in the Parents subforum (Korn feel free to move this thread somewhere more appropriate if necessary)

Just wondering how many of you have had your son(s) circumcised, or will do so if you have a son. Personally, I wouldn't want to, since I believe that it's healthier and more natural to leave them the way they are, but I'd like to hear others' opinions on this.

[rantipole]

I doubt I'll become a parent, but if I did there is no way I'd circumcise my son. First of all, it is mutilation without consent (much like ear-cropping and declawing). Second, there is no hard evidence of any health benefits (it does seem to reduce spreading of HIV, but just teach your son to wear a condom). Third, it does reduce sexual pleasure, supposedly for both the man and woman (I'm a circumcised gay man, so I can't know that for sure).

I hope there comes a day when this is viewed in the same light as female genital mutilation. There really is no reason for circumcision other than cultural. It is frequently done without anasthesia, which should classify it as torture.

OK, enough of my ranting. Don't snip your son!

Cheers,
rant

[Yoggy]

I think many people are starting to share your view on this, Rantipole. I've heard that pretty much everywhere in the world outside of North America, circumcised men are by far in the minority. I wonder why it's still so popular in North America

[Gorilla]

i've wondered why it seems to be common in America - it really isn't common in the UK as far as i can tell. my cousin needed to have it done for medical reasons when he was a teenager, but i've never understood the point of it otherwise

[harpy]

I believe people in America often do it for "hygienic" reasons? Washing seems to be a good alternative in that case. It seems mean to do it to someone who's too young to consent, particularly without an anaesthetic.

[Wanda]

We chose not to have our little boy circumsized.
This link has great information!

[Roxy]

Well I have to be honest.......the only uncircumsized penis I've ever been with was a lot smellier and didn't seem as fresh and clean as the circumsized ones I've been with. I think it had to do with pee and dead skin cells getting trapped under the foreskin - but I don't really know.

The guy who had the uncircumsized penis did shower twice a day, so maybe he just didn't wash it properly

[Yoggy]

I don't have a problem with the smell. It's definitely a unique smell, but not bad in my opinion. But my uncircumcised BF was very good at washing, and since I'm pretty germ-conscious and wouldn't engage in any sexual activity unless he had showered recently, I only noticed a mild smell.

Regardless, I definitely think it shouldn't be the parents' choice to circumcise, it should be the child's when he's old enough.

[DancingWillow]

yoggy, i hope you don't think it's too personal of me to ask, but is your bf considering getting circumcised? if yes, what are his reasons for wanting to?

i cringe even imagining how painful it must be, and if i were a guy, i don't think i'd want to be circumcised. i agree that parents should not make that decision on behalf of their child.

[Yoggy]

Hi DancingWillow. No, he's definitely not considering it. I'm glad because it means there won't be any debate in that area if we have kids, since I'm against having it done to infants. But every other male in my family (that I know of anyway) is circumcised, and I know it's really common in Canada, and more so in the U.S. So I was just curious about others' opinions on it, if they would have it done to their sons then why/why not, etc. Strange topic for me to be curious about, but there you go .

[DancingWillow]

lol it is strange how common it is, so i'm interested in others' opinions as well.

[eve]

All my sons were circumcised on their 8th day. The penises of uncircumcised men look yukky to me, but that's just me.

[Roxy]

And just WHAT have you been doing down at the pool each morning Eve?

[eve]

I'll ignore that, Roxy, I was recalling incidents during my long life

[Roxy]

[Yoggy]

I sometimes think it's strange that people say it's hard to keep clean, etc, since I think it's harder for a girl to keep herself clean (at least for me, I'm not satisfied with just aiming the water in that general direction... too much information? LOL). But they don't do anything to girls to make cleaning easier. Everyone just needs to be taught good hygiene.

[hollybee]

My son is not circumcised-I would not have allowed it even if my husband had wanted it done.
Many years ago, I saw a news story where they had taped a newborn baby's screams as he was circumcised. It was just horrifying. Doctors won't use anesthetic on a baby that young-they say it's dangerous.
My husband is not circumcised either, and I have never noticed any odor about him. He's very clean.

[nickn505]

I'm unsnipped. I wouldn't circumcise my future children for the reasons you all have stated.

As for circumcision here in the states, it's basically a cultural thing. If the father is circumcised there's a good chance the son will be. When asked how this came about historically everyone will tell you it's for hygenic and religious reasons. I've talked to a professor of mine who's researched this issue and he tells me this isn't true. Most people here don't know about the religious and hygenic theories and like I said, It's just a traditional family and cultural thing. My professor states it wasn't common in North America until the Victorian era when popular belief was that if you masturbated frequently you'd go crazy. It was believed that circumcision would make it harder for a man to masturbate, therefore circumcision gained popularity.

[sugarmouse]

I dont agree with it. Its obviously not meant to be done so why do it. Hygeine is important.

[Mahk]

The penises of uncircumcised men look yukky to me,

Eve, Out of curiosity, what would your reaction be to a male on the forum writing that he thought some female genitalia looked "yucky"?

[eve]

Mahk, what is it about you Americans who do not understand irony?

Incidentally, when each of my 4 sons were circumcised, there was no anaestheic, but I dipped my finger in a little glass of wine, and they sucked happily on my finger. So where the tape recording of a newborn baby's screams came from I don't know - it is usually done on the 8th day. Another point, when I worked for 7 years or so with the hiv/aids clinic in Sydney, we had reports that uncircumcised men had a much higher incidence of the virus.

As nickn505 says, it's just a traditional family and cultural thing, no big deal, not enough to get annoyed about.

[cvC]

I note that, as well as insulting Mahk and other Americans, making what I'm sure is a false statement, you didn't answer his question, Eve.

Circumcision is an issue that does upset me somewhat and I can't say I'm happy that I was mutilated in this way. This is from site that's against it:

"Did you know -

* that most men in the world and the great majority of men in Europe, Scandinavia, Central and South America or Asia are not circumcised?
* that "medical" infant circumcision was introduced to prevent masturbation?
* that until a few decades ago, female genital cutting was promoted in the western world for many of the same reasons as male circumcision?
* that infant circumcision was fashionable in the English-speaking world 50 years ago but is now rare (except in the US)?
* that babies are strapped down to be circumcised?
* that circumcision with a PlastiBellTM does involve cutting?
* that before the foreskin can be cut (or crushed) off, it must be torn away from the glans?
* that circumcision removes 50% of the skin of the penis?
* that no medical association anywhere in the world supports neonatal circumcision (male or female) on medical grounds?"

http://www.circumstitions.com/

I won't pretend to understand all this, but here are some verses from the book of Galatians in the (KJV) New Testament that mention circumcision:

"2Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.

3For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

4Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

5For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

6For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love."

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...er=5&version=9

[Risker]

no big deal, not enough to get annoyed about.

Sorry I disagree, mutilating the most vulnerable members of society without their permission is more than enough to annoy me.

I don't think you're a bad person for having had it done but I do think it's bad that society allows and even encourages it.

Likewise I think it's terrible when I see babies with pierced ears - Children are not their parents property and shouldn't be allowed to damage their bodies for their own vanity.

[sugarmouse]

I think it is a big deal.My father is still scarred as he remembers having it done. and although I am not a misanthropist and therefore not huge advocator of human rights i agree that it shoiuld not be ok to mutilate a persons body when they are too young to give input.

[Mahk]

Mahk, what is it about you Americans who do not understand irony?

Eve, It’s good to see you were not being sincere when you wrote, “The penises of uncircumcised men look yukky to me”.
Since you don’t answer my question directly, I’ll assume that, like me, you would be very upset if you saw a male on this forum post a statement like, “I don’t like women with small breasts, I think they are yucky.” I‘m sure you’ll agree; making fun of or belittling other people’s body parts is not part of a polite, adult conversation. Also, please excuse my failure in recognizing your statement as being ironic; I’m just an American.

[Ginger]

In my opinion, circumcision is totally barbaric and unnecessary (except perhaps in extreme medical circumstances). I have never understood why it is carried out (though I have heard many reasons).
Guess there are people who also think female circumcision is ok...

[RedWellies]

Personally, I think it should only be done if there is a medical reason for it. I don't see the point otherwise.

[Ginger]

Totally agree RedWellies.

[Lilac Hamster]

Tradition, culture or religion are not acceptable excuses for child abuse and cruelty any more than they are excuses for animal abuse.

Maybe you could start thinking for yourself instead of hiding behind such flimsy excuses?

I suppose by your rules female genital mutilation would also be no big deal, after all that is also tradition and culture in some areas of the world.

Or is a sexist attitude to genital mutilation OK when it is males who are on the receiving end?

I heard about one boy who was brought up as a girl (unsuccessfully, he was never happy) because the operation went wrong and he had to lose it all! Sick, sick, sick, it should only be done for medical reasons.

Lesley

Mahk, what is it about you Americans who do not understand irony?

Incidentally, when each of my 4 sons were circumcised, there was no anaestheic, but I dipped my finger in a little glass of wine, and they sucked happily on my finger. So where the tape recording of a newborn baby's screams came from I don't know - it is usually done on the 8th day. Another point, when I worked for 7 years or so with the hiv/aids clinic in Sydney, we had reports that uncircumcised men had a much higher incidence of the virus.

As nickn505 says, it's just a traditional family and cultural thing, no big deal, not enough to get annoyed about.

[Roxy]

Come on you guys, don't be so harsh on Eve. You've got to let her have her opinion. After all, the thread is asking for people's opinions.

[puffin]

Tradition, culture or religion are not acceptable excuses for child abuse and cruelty any more than they are excuses for animal abuse.

Maybe you could start thinking for yourself instead of hiding behind such flimsy excuses?

I suppose by your rules female genital mutilation would also be no big deal, after all that is also tradition and culture in some areas of the world.

Or is a sexist attitude to genital mutilation OK when it is males who are on the receiving end?

I heard about one boy who was brought up as a girl (unsuccessfully, he was never happy) because the operation went wrong and he had to lose it all! Sick, sick, sick, it should only be done for medical reasons.

Lesley

I think that reply to eve was a little harsh. Calling people child abusers is terrible. I dont believe in circumcision but i would never accuse someone of abuse just because i didnt agree with there actions.

[harpy]

Circumcision of boys was a routine procedure until recently in some countries - it's only lately that people have started to call it into question, I think. So a couple of decades ago parents would probably just have assumed they were doing the right thing by their children.

What does seem odd is that it was the norm in some countries and almost unheard of in others (apart from those who did it for religious reasons). But I suppose that was before the invention of the www ...

[redberries]

I don't think I'll ever have kids, but if I do then I'll wait until he is of an age to make that decision himself. With circumcision there's no going back, so I'd want him to be happy with the decision. I know of quite a few guys who's parents let them decide and not one of them wanted to have it done.

[Pob]

I actually agree with Lilac Hamster there.

I was older (about 6 I think) when I was circumcised and it was for medical reasons, and it was done under general anaesthetic. Whether the reasons were good enough, I don't know. It has left me very self conscious and I don't ever use urinals in public places because of that. It was actually quite a big step for me to post that picture in the naked pics thread.

I can also only imagine how much feeling is missing from my sex life. I do know that my masturbation techniques were always a little "inventive" as a child as the classic hand wank never really seemed to feel very nice.

Even for medical reasons, you should think long and hard about whether it is appropriate to scar your child both physically and mentally in this way.

[Lilac Hamster]

Pob, can you discuss this with those who made the decision?

It is occasionally needed on medical grounds (although in many cases there might be an alternative which your parents were probably not advised of).

Unlike those who do it routinely to baby boys for no better reason than blindly following religion and cultural tradition, I am sure they did the best they could at the time and only agreed to it because they believed it was absolutely necessary.

http://www.norm-uk.org/

You will see from this site that your feelings about what was done to you are totally normal feelings, and also that things can often be done to help men in your situation.
Hope this helps, in case you are not already aware of this site.

[RedWellies]

Oh, Pob, that's terrible you feel self-conscious about your penis! I never even noticed in your pic. If it makes you feel any better, my ex was circumcised (for medical reasons) and I never thought anything of it. I don't think it affected his feelings during sex (at least he didn't seem to have any trouble, although he could be a little less sensitive on the tip, but I suppose everyone is different). I think a lot of men are self-conscious about their penises, circumcised or not.

[Pob]

I don't feel badly about my parents making that decision, but I can only imagine how I would feel if I had been circumcised because it is "... just a traditional family and cultural thing, no big deal, not enough to get annoyed about."

That was the reason I posted in this thread. It's plenty to be annoyed and upset about. Oddly enough, to me an uncircumcised penis also looks uglier. This is no doubt due to what one is used to, and certainly wouldn't make me think that all foreskins should be torn off and thrown away.

[auntierozzi]

To maybe provide another angle on this.

This link

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0213102949.htm

claims that male circumcision can be protective for women.

[Pob]

I'm not convinced that's a valid argument for circumcision, though. Castration would be even more effective, and I don't here anyone proposing that.

[Gorilla]

that link didn't work for me... what was it about?

[Pob]

It's here

[Gorilla]

thanks Pob, i've heard that before but i agree that it doesn't seem worth mutilating children for, when condoms or abstinence would have the same effect (not quite as drastic as castration either! )

[eve]

Since you don’t answer my question directly, I’ll assume that, like me, you would be very upset if you saw a male on this forum post a statement like, “I don’t like women with small breasts, I think they are yucky.” I‘m sure you’ll agree; making fun of or belittling other people’s body parts is not part of a polite, adult conversation. Also, please excuse my failure in recognizing your statement as being ironic; I’m just an American.

If someone did post such a comment, unlike you I would not be upset, I'd realise that he had his tongue in the side of his mouth (and no, that's not to be taken literally, what I mean is, I would accept his sense of humour). Of course I'd never make fun of anyone's body parts, what do you think I am?

Anyhow, this thread was supposed to be seeking opinions. Instead it has turned into a tirade against circumcision/abuse. Who would dare to go against the majority here and say, hey, I quite like the look of a circumcised man. Just chill will you?

[Roxy]

That's what I reckon. Everyone's allowed to have an opinion here.

[fiamma]

The word "mutilation", which has been used various times on this thread, is quite subjective. One of my ex-boyfriends was circumcised and he was fine with it. I sympathise with those who have been circumcised and are unhappy with the decision that was made, but that's not always the case.

[Pob]

Would you not agree, though, that it shouldn't be the parent's decision to make? Either it's needed on medical grounds and a doctor will make the decision, or it shouldn't be done at all.

Whether some people prefer it or not is immaterial until they are old enough to make their own decision.

I see it on a par with tail docking and mulesing.

[fiamma]

I do see your point Pob. But every parent makes choices for their children, they have to. I do realise though that as a woman it's impossible for me to identify fully with the pain it's caused you.

[Korn]

I don't think we're getting something out of calling people 'child abusers', but as a comment to this thread, there in many European (and other) countries it's quite common to consider circumcision child abuse. Laws against 'FMG' ("Female Genital Mutilation") exist in many countries.

It's hard for me to see how using a knife on any part of a little boy (and especially on his genitals) can be seen as such a different thing. In France they don't have a special law against circumcision/FMG, but people have been put in jail with reference to the law about child abuse.

That laws against genital mutilation of animals exist, but no law against cutting in the penises of small baby boys surprises me - and I guess, seems strange to lots of people where I live, because circumcision isn't part of our tradition at all. It's something we were just told - as kids - that happened in some weird other country. Just hearing about it was frightening, and reminded me og stories about Chinese women forced to wear shoes to get small feet, woman doing weird stuff to get very long necks, or those American Indians who for some reason put something in their lower lip. Modifying genitals seemed (and still seems) like something more dramatic than modifying feet, lips or necks...

[harpy]

Although it exists in various forms, FGM does seem to involve a more serious and dangerous operation than male circumcision. In addition it sometimes seems to be intended to remove the person's ability to enjoy sex, which isn't true of male circumcision. Not that I am advocating either procedure.

[Yoggy]

Someone else pointed out earler that in North America, the origin of circumcision was in fact to reduce the person's ability to enjoy sex (more specifically, masturbation).